Obituary For A 20thC Boy, Crits Please. Thanks! Options

[Cleo_Serapis]

Hello James!  

Yes, you have a creative mind and write about topics not so often trodden. This is what makes you unique!  

I found this tile interesting, if not "in your face" personification. These tiles are hard to crit, because most readers find them far too personal.
BUT - we DO have an obligation to offer critique when we see something that could be even more refined, don't we? Taking my views aside, here is my offering for you to take or toss...
Cheers!
~Cleo  


Obituary for A Twentieth-Century Boy
by MB

You were:

Bitter
Light
Dark
Sad
Happy
Concerned
Fancy-Free
Sweet

Above, I would rather like to see the words flow together in a sentence-type stucture instead of just listed out - I haven't seen an obituary that does lists, but then again, I don't read them too often.   Perhaps something like (without the caps too and perhaps italized)?

You were bitter, light, dark, sad, happy,
concerned, fancy-free and sweet...

Asteroids clatter among the Universe;
Schoolchildren chatter going into class.
Shopkeepers retail their grandmothers;
Undertakers detail precisely the hearse.

And so it goes round; No part so grand.
A bit at a time; History calls back beckons her son.
Couple of beers; in drifts that Sixties’ song; *No hyphen
Penny Lane cheers out across the sands.

What events between womb and earth? *not complete thought?
perhaps add the word sum?

No pretence of a linear progression!
Staggering along; you did your best.
Puck on-song; you’re beaten by girth!

You:

hurt
healed
frowned
smiled
fought
made-peace
cried
laughed

and cried.

Again with the above, I would rather like to see the words flow together in a sentence-type stucture instead of just listed out.
You  hurt, healed, frowned, smiled,
fought, made peace, cried, laughed

and cried died.

Ashes to Ashes
Dust to Dust
Earth to Sun
Universe to Cinders

Big Bang No 2! [*space]
(Ok, whatever number). [*Don't think you need this line - detracts?]
Rebirth!
But not us, my Friend...

Let’s just hope
The Buddhists are
right in the
Very Long Run.

[Guest_Jox_*]

Lori, Thanks - I hadn't seen your crit.

I shall go carefully thought this and reply.

Thanks for such a careful crit. Much appreciated.

James.

[Guest_Jox_*]

Hi Lori,

Thank you very much for your kind and detailed crit. It certainly made me go-through the work carefully. I feel actually quite guilty at this point because I didn’t feel able to use as many of the points as I’d like to but what you offered was precisely why I came to MM.

Indeed, I accept my “stuff” can be hard to crit (I’m glad I don’t have to!) so I do understand that sometimes people kindly comment on the work, rather than crit. But I am very well aware that nothing I have ever written is perfect and much is zillions of miles from that so I do offer work for crit - and I always am grateful and take it very seriously.

I shall explain my thinking but if you - or anyone else - would care to explain to me why I’m wrong, I’m still listening!

Thank you for the kind comments.

>> I found this tile interesting, if not "in your face" personification.

Sorry, didn’t understand this.

>> These tiles are hard to crit, because most readers find them far too personal.

Nor did I understand this. The odd thing is that Alan thought this personal, too. Does that mean I was convincing or that readers bring assumptions to a poem. I’d love to think the former but...

Anyway, let me assure all that this is nor personal. I know no one to whom this could possibly refer as such. In fact, I meant the 20th Century boy to represent mankind as much as anyone in particular. The only personal aspect is, as with most poetry, it reflects my views in some way. Even then, some of it goes against those views, too.

>> BUT - we DO have an obligation to offer critique when we see something that could be even more refined, don't we? Taking my views aside, here is my offering for you to take or toss...

Absolutely. I’ll drink to that... this is a crit forum. If I didn’t want crit I would have put it somewhere else.

In detail...

=Bitter
=Light
=Dark
=Sad
=Happy
=Concerned
=Fancy-Free
=Sweet

>> Above, I would rather like to see the words flow together in a sentence-type stucture instead of just listed out - I haven't seen an obituary that does lists, but then again, I don't read them too often. Perhaps something like (without the caps too and perhaps italized)?

>> You were bitter, light, dark, sad, happy,
concerned, fancy-free and sweet...

I didn’t put the two line-outs just there... the line-outs are there to go slow: To go very slow. Like a funeral march. To make each word one to ponder over and for each to be a funeral drum-beat. If I put them on one line they (as you say) become a sentence - just a collection of items. Like taking a mouthful of food, rather than carefully chewing each item slowly. I’m not saying my line-out is the best way to do it. I did consider omitting a line between each item but that seemed to go too far.

And do you know, you picked up on this! Quote: “Above, I would rather like to see the words flow together” - you’re absolutely right; they don’t flow. So at least I did have some of the impact I meant to! Hope you don’t feel I’m being perverse; I only realised this after about thirty minutes of going through your crit. And, though  I’m sorry that you’d prefer them a different way, I am pleased that they have had the effect I wanted.

>>A bit at a time; History calls back beckons her son.
>>Couple of beers; in drifts that Sixties’ song; *No hyphen

I fully accept that beckons sounds better than “calls back” (which might be a tad clumsy) but your suggestion has made me dissatisfied with both! What I was trying to convey was an order (death orders, it doesn’t ask nicely). (Terrible word, “nice” etc!) so beckons doesn’t work. However, it does sound much better than “calls back” and “calls back” is too much pussy-footing too, methinks. So I’ll happily go with your one-word suggestion when I think of an appropriate one - or can anybody suggest one, please. I need a one-word version of “commands back” - which is a horrid phrase.

I can’t use just “orders” (or “beckons”) because they suggest progress, not regress. This is History which gave birth now claiming its own back - i.e. giving death. This is obviously going to be a big problem. Thanks for pointing it out. (I think!).

de-hyphen accepted - I hyphen too much.

>>What events between womb and earth? *not complete thought?
>>perhaps add the word sum?

Sorry, I didn’t understand this in either way. Why not a complete thought and where would “sum” go in?

The idea was to ask what happened between the time he (20thC boy) was born (womb) and when he was buried (earth - as in six-feet under - hence small “e” for earth, not capital “E,” as with the planet). Does that help?

=hurt
=healed
=frowned
=smiled
=fought
=made-peace
=cried
=laughed

=and cried.

Again with the above, I would rather like to see the words flow together in a sentence-type stucture instead of just listed out.
You hurt, healed, frowned, smiled,
fought, made peace, cried, laughed

>> and cried died.

Butch, Grace and you all say this - I certainly accept there must be a point. However, “died” is not it. I used “cried” again for two or three reasons. Firstly, because it rhymes with “died” and I thought people would expect “died” and, therefore “cried” would be more thought-provoking. Well that backfired! Secondly, to reinforce the message of crying that is part of the human condition. Thirdly, to mean two types of crying. The first is the external but the last is the internal crying that is so rarely seen by society. maybe “and silently cried” would overcome this problem - I was hoping to jolt thought with that second cried but I think I was too obscure. Thanks all who have commented on this point.

>>Big Bang No 2! [*space]
>>(Ok, whatever number). [*Don't think you need this line - detracts?]

"No2" is wrong - but I think a dot (No.2), rather than a space is correct.

Thanks I'll change that.

Does that line detract? Emm... You may well be right. However, if I do omit that then “Big Bang No.2” is meaningless isn’t it? I was trying to convey the modern (?) astrophysics theory that the Universe was created by a Big Bang, lives, dies then is re-born in another Big Bang, lives, dies, is re-born in Big Bang No.3 and so on. My problem is this... if I omit that line, No.2 acquires a special significance above its status. It is important because it is a second chance etc - but there will be more chances ad infinitum. So I don’t know what to do here.

OK, as soon as I can I’ll post a new revision at the top of this thread. Thanks all and especially Lori, for your crits - and any more will still be gratefully taken into account. Now, I just need a better, more forceful and single word for “Call-back“.

Thanks again, Lori - I know you're very busy and that thsi wasn't easy. Much for me to think on't and I am doing. Most helpful.

James.

[Guest__*]

Dear Jox,

I think the matter of it being seen as personal stems from the title - it looks as if you are writing this about a specific known individual, hence we are all "sharing your grief".

Perhaps it needs to be titled :

Obituary for "20th Century Boy" to show it is generic.

How about for calls back "recalls" ? That sounds fairly demanded ? or "reclaims" ?

Love
Alan

[Guest_Jox_*]

Alan  - brilliant on both counts - thank you!

I shall use both those suggestions.

I can now stop my head-banging!

much obliged.

J.

[Guest_Nina_*]

Hi James

Up too early this morning so I thought I'd have a look at some of the earlier stuff on MM.  It would take too long to comment on everything , though they are all very interesting to read, so I'm just picking out the ones that particularly make an impression on me, as this one did.

A phrase I love is "the circle of life" which you hint at a couple of times

And so it goes round;

No pretence of a linear progression!
From birth to death, from nothing back to nothing.

You were:

Bitter
Light
Dark
Sad
Happy
Concerned
Fancy-Free
Sweet
I find it interesting that the first word in your description is bitter, a very powerful, angry word that stays in the readers mind all the way through even though you have balanced it out at the end of this verse with its antonym at the end sweet and the other  antonymical see-saw emotions the man goes through in his life-time.

Throughout the poem there is a feeling of bitterness, sadness, disappointment and cynicism and it gives me the image of a decent man who is somewhat lonely and alone and hasn't been given "the best deal in life".  I see him sitting on his own in the pub staring at his almost empty pint of beer, with the Beetles, T-Rex, Queen playing in the background reminding him of the past and how he has missed out somehow on life.

hurt
healed
frowned
smiled
fought
made-peace
cried
laughed

and cried.
again hurt is the word that grabs at the beginning of this verse and the repetitiion of cried being the last thing he does, re-enforces the sadness, regret and depression.

Ashes to Ashes
Dust to Dust
Earth to Sun
Universe to Cinders
this underlines the finality of it all, then almost as an afterthought you go on to wish there was a chance of rebirth and another shot at life and perhaps a happier more positive one.

Another one of your thought-provoking poems

Nina

[Guest_Jox_*]

Hi Butch, seems I owe you an apology - said I would get back to you and never did - I'm very sorry.

Nina has kindly dug this up, giving me a second chance to tidy up and re-consider crits.

So, my answer - just a few months late! :

-----------------------

>B>Just dropped by on my way along the long and winding road.

Thank you!

>B>The chains of life have me horribly locked up and busy.

I hope the Masters Degree is going well, Butch.

>B>As always your work intrigues me.  You walk along paths I would never think of, so you inspire.

Thank you very much - that is a great compliment.

>B>I don't always agree, but isn't that the point, we like to challenge the reader make them think a bit?

Absolutely! There wouldn’t be much point in writing if we always agreed.

>B>Just look at the dialogue you have gotten stoked between two excellent artists such as Daniel and Alan.  Wonderful, you should be proud.

I think I’ve lost this point a little with the passage of time, sorry. But certainly, MM is a great place with many excellent writers.

>B>Interesting you call yourself a liberal.

I suppose I’m a liberal democrat - but we have a major political party of that same name here and I disagree with many of their policies - so liberal democrat with small letters.

>B> Unfortunately that term takes a savage beating here in the states, not unlike the term conservative.  Are we not all supporters of liberty and conservative attitudes - do we not want social support structure and yet some form of moral responsibility?

Here, our equilivilant of the US’s Republican Party is the Conservative Party. So, again, we’re talking lower-case letters,

I am uncomfortable with the term “moral responsibility.” The “responsibility” part is fine. People in “the West” have many rights and, with those, come responsibilities. No argument there. However...

The term “moral” is like the term “common sense.” What you and I and anyone else see as moral or common sense may vary greatly. For example, religions often hi-jack the term “moral” to mean in support of their own view. Countries appropriate religions, too (e.g. in WWI both Britain and Germany had “God on their side.”). Morality is thus a political issue and subject to debate, not absolutism.

On documentaries, I have heard people say “homosexuality is immoral.” Well they are entitled to their opinion but they are claiming “a moral high ground” only for their own opinions. I could equally say their views are immoral - but I’d be doing similar. So, I don’t believe in absolute morality (note also it widely varies between areas, regions, countries and over time). I, therefore, would argue for moral relativity (a philosophical strand) and expect people to make their own minds up on what is moral - if they wish to. For me, personally, the only things immoral are deliberately hurting others when there is no need to. How people live their lives otherwise is up to them. That would be my moral code. I don’t want to tell people they should marry or conduct their lives in any particular way.




>B>You comment about the religions, unfortunately will never happen.  Man cannot understand how something that he didn't control, think of, or do, can occur.  So it must be a God of some form that did it.  Right?

err, well since you ask, nope, I disagree.

But I do agree that gods are devised because of man’s ignorance and incomprehension of his lot.

My central problem on all this is that we cannot comprehend infinity and we cannot comprehend nothing. So the Universe must never end - but it must end. The only answer would seem to be a spherical structure (or Mobius strip!) but. then again, what’s beyond that? However, I’m not in the least inclined to believe that it is a god because - what would be beyond it? A god would not solve the problem.

As regards our own mortality and after life. I just think that is a construct of mankind’s arrogance - we’re special; we’re immortal. However (and this is one way I think religions can help people) such beliefs can bring great comfort to millions - so I’m glad for them that they believe. I wouldn’t mind believing myself, actually. Providing Heaven had dogs. Mind you, it wouldn’t be heaven without, of course.

>B>Religions go back even beyond the three you mention, Gilgamesh ring a bell?  There were wars before the 5000 year old wars we now fight, and they were about Gods and religion.  There will always be wars about Gods, because we - man - just can't let the other guy believe the way he wants to, now can we?

An info link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epic_of_Gilgamesh

Butch, I agree with that - we always try to impose our beliefs and our will on others. All is political; religion merely a political tool - at that level.

>B>Awh but I too forget why I opened this door. Crits, hard to say - you always write so well -

Thanks Butch.

>B>I agree with the caps they throw me at times.  I am no means a grammar expert so I attempt to interpret, usually to my demise.  

Nope, I’m a grammar ignoramus. I’ll look at that, thanks.

>B>I also agree with Cybele and the word - died instead of cried.  Brings a finality to it.

emm... I may change that now - thanks, Butch.

>B>I can identify a friend I recently lost in your work, so it has an impact.

Thank you.

>B>Thank you friend for sharing.

Thanks Butch and my big apologies for such a late response. Hope you see this.

J.

[Guest_Jox_*]

Somewhat belated revision undertaken - thanks all.

Nina - my reply to you next.

[Guest_Jox_*]

Hi Nina,

Thanks for digging this one up, not least because I like it (not the case with all I write, by any means) and because it has caused me to revise it and post the revision.

>N>Up too early this morning so I thought I'd have a look at some of the earlier stuff on MM.

Bad luck. Thanks for the MM search, though.

>N>It would take too long to comment on everything , though they are all very interesting to read, so I'm just picking out the ones that particularly make an impression on me, as this one did.

Thank you, Nina.

>N>A phrase I love is "the circle of life" which you hint at a couple of times

Thanks. I do believe much is circular - not perfect circles but certainly cyclical.

Bitter...

Sweet


>N>I find it interesting that the first word in your description is bitter, a very powerful, angry word that stays in the readers mind all the way through even though you have balanced it out at the end of this verse with its antonym at the end sweet and the other antonymical see-saw emotions the man goes through in his life-time.

Yes, thank you. Grace mentioned that "sweet" was a strange term for a boy but it depends how it is meant.

see-saw emotions is right - you have my intentions.

>N>Throughout the poem there is a feeling of bitterness, sadness, disappointment and cynicism and it gives me the image of a decent man who is somewhat lonely and alone and hasn't been given "the best deal in life".  I see him sitting on his own in the pub staring at his almost empty pint of beer, with the Beetles, T-Rex, Queen playing in the background reminding him of the past and how he has missed out somehow on life.

Maybe so. Interesting. Maybe also he never quite understood what life was about. Of course, maybe none of us do but most people come to a satisfactory working arrangement.

hurt...

and cried.

>N>again hurt is the word that grabs at the beginning of this verse and the repetitiion of cried being the last thing he does, re-enforces the sadness, regret and depression.

As I was revising, this morning, I finally took people's advice and changed "cried" to "died." I realised no one knew what I was saying. Then I came to the above paragraph of yours and immediatly reinstated it. You have my meaning precisely.

Ashes to Ashes
Dust to Dust
Earth to Sun
Universe to Cinders

>N>this underlines the finality of it all, then almost as an afterthought you go on to wish there was a chance of rebirth and another shot at life and perhaps a happier more positive one.

Yup... perhaps not quite an after-thought so much as believing it a futile one.

>N>Another one of your thought-provoking poems

Thank you very much Nina - and another of your perceptive in-depth crits.

Thanks!

J.

Nina

[Guest_Toumai_*]

Hi James,

You have written several on the cyclicity of life/death, the bitter accident of existence and the universe. Nowt like taking on the big themes, lad.

Nina, thanks so much for digging this out and dusting it off. Lori was saying (suggested New Year Resolution, or something?) we should occasionally have a peek into the past and see what treasures are waiting there.

I like the structure, the way the rhythm and speed changes and the rhymes weave.

James, you've had some excellent crits - I don't think I can offer suggestions - but I am completely flummoxed by the line
Puck on-song; you’re beaten by girth!
and I'd love to understand ...

Fran

[Guest_Nina_*]

Hi James

Thank you very much Nina - and another of your perceptive in-depth crits.
Thank you too.

I had another thought about the crying at the end and how it links in well with the cyclical topic.  When we are born the first thing we do is cry, so it is quite apt that the last thing he does is cry, bringing him neatly back to the beginning

I assumed the Puck line was connected to A Midsummer Night's Dream, though I don't know its relevance to the poem.

Nina

[Guest_Toumai_*]

Hi Nina

I wondered about Puck as in Shakespeare, too, and perhaps Swan song ... but I'm lost otherwise.

What an excellent idea about the crying! he bitter-sweet and life-death cycles and now a perfect circle for that.

(Sorry for nattering on your thread, James)

Fran

[Guest_Jox_*]

Hi Fran,

Thanks for your visit.

>F>You have written several on the cyclicity of life/death, the bitter accident of existence and the universe. Nowt like taking on the big themes, lad.

Aye, pompous me. John Keats wrote about his hand. Think I should go for a few close-observational poems, too.

>F>Nina, thanks so much for digging this out and dusting it off. Lori was saying (suggested New Year Resolution, or something?) we should occasionally have a peek into the past and see what treasures are waiting there.

Yes, thanks Nina. Lori is right - not saying you've found one but Lori is right.

>F>I like the structure, the way the rhythm and speed changes and the rhymes weave.

Thank you!

>F>James, you've had some excellent crits - I don't think I can offer suggestions

Indeed, I have. No problem, Fran.

>F> - but I am completely flummoxed by the line
Puck on-song; you’re beaten by girth!
and I'd love to understand ...

OK, as Nina suggested we're in "Midsummer's Night's Dream" here.

Oberon is King of the fairies and Titania the Queen. Puck is Oberon's servant. Oberon is annoyed with the Queen because she won't hand-over a child to him so he decides to make trouble for her. He wants a lotion, which can be applied to her eyes as she sleeps, which will make her fall in love with the first thing she sees when she wakes (which turns-out ro be Bottom the Weaver with his ass's head). Puck is charged with acquiring said lotion. In a famous quote he responds very eagerly by saying:

"I'll put a girdle round about the earth
In forty minutes."

In t'other words: "Yes Sir, straight away, Sir - I'll search everywhere, Sir."

OK, that's the Shakespearian background. Now my use of it:

"What events between womb and earth?
No pretence of a linear progression -
staggering along; you did your best.
Puck on-song; you’re beaten by girth!"

"you did your best. Puck on Song" - Puck made his best efforts to achieve success; to serve people and to be a useful chappie. Look at the efforts he was willing to go to - round the Earth in forty minutes - major effort but no success.

Why did the 20thC boy fail, despite his efforts? Simple - "you're beaten by girth." In t'other words, the job was just too big. The distance too far.

I hope if you re-read the whole verse now it will make better sense?

Thanks for the opportunity to explain. Please let me know if it still doesn't make sense ( ! ) or you don't understand anything.

By the way, my friends were named after two of the fairies who were Titania's hand-maids - Mustardseed and Cobweb.

Bye, J.

[Guest_Jox_*]

Hi Nina,

Thanks for returning.

>N>I had another thought about the crying at the end and how it links in well with the cyclical topic.  When we are born the first thing we do is cry, so it is quite apt that the last thing he does is cry, bringing him neatly back to the beginning.

Excellent point - thanks. I can't remember if I was thinking of that when I wrote this (over six months ago) but I doubt it. Thanks for that - great.

>N>I assumed the Puck line was connected to A Midsummer Night's Dream, though I don't know its relevance to the poem.

Yes, Shakespeare's AMND it is. Hope the explanation (above) to Fran makes sense?

Thanks Nina, J.

[Guest_Jox_*]

Hi Fran,

>F>I wondered about Puck as in Shakespeare, too, and perhaps Swan song ... but I'm lost otherwise.

Swansong - Tchaikovsky's Swan Lake? Dearth song of the swan?

>F>What an excellent idea about the crying! he bitter-sweet and life-death cycles and now a perfect circle for that.

T'was. Thanks, again, Nina.

>F>(Sorry for nattering on your thread, James)

Not nattering at all - very pertinent.

Thanks,

J.

[Guest_Nina_*]

Hi James

Thanks your explanation to Fran makes perfect sense.

Nina

[Guest_Jox_*]

Hi Nina,

Thanks for your thanks!

>N>makes perfect sense.

Nina, I'm horrified! That's the first time anyone has said that about my work. How could you?

:)

Cheers, J.

[Guest_Nina_*]

Hi James

Nina, I'm horrified! That's the first time anyone has said that about my work. How could you?
ROFL  Ah!  you have discovered my secret ambition - to make complete sense of your poems.  I will not rest till I do .  One down XXXXXX to go



Nina

[Guest_Jox_*]

ROFL!

Good luck - err, you'll need it!

:)

J.