R and M or FV? Options

[Cleo_Serapis]

There is quite a debate for the poets in us, as to whether Rhythm and Meter or Free Verse is more popular at competition sites.

Here is your opportunity to tell us your thoughts.

Which do you prefer and why?

~Cleo  :read:

[Guest_Taita_*]

Good topic Cleo!

I personally love R & M so I'm biased. I haven't read a lot of the top level poetry from either free verse or R & M but the FV I read on poetry boards rarely does much for me. It seems so easy because there are less contraints and seemingly less rules to follow so you end up with meanderings that for their freedom should really be that much more potent.

It seems like choas, being vague, having sentences that follow grammatical rules etc are often ignored in FV. Compare that to the music, discipline, rhythms etc of R & M and for me there's no contest.

Freeverse isn't the kind of poetry I would take home to meet, mum.

[Guest_Tao_*]

Hi Taita,

Glad to see you're okay. Didn't that hurricane past right through Tampa? I was wondering where in Florida you were located, but all’s well that ends well.

Thanks for firing the first salvo in this debate. Since you’ve professed your love for one, I’ll dare to champion the cause of the other. You’ve seen my not so smooth R&M, though I try. I also have FV posted here at MM, though probably more like hybrids. I tend to think I’m neutral on the subject, but that remains to be seen by others.

Human beings have always tried to apply structure to nature, the most comprehensive of which has got to be mathematics. There’s a formula to it, there must be! But even science admits that parts of nature are chaos and there are many “undefined” symbols in math, pi for instance. And just as other disciplines of human endeavor invariably end up as manifestations of patterns of nature, so does poetry. Like stock market returns and fashion, things run in cycles and over the long haul - revert to the mean.

As you said, there is good R&M as well as FV. I’ve read bad R&M and it came across worse than children rhymes, or worse yet, a bad commercial jingle. God knows, I’ve done a few that sounds like that. I’ve also read horrible free verse – scantly qualifying to be so-called poetry. Free verse should hardly be mere run-on sentences strung together or the discordant random placement of a few outrageous words. But then, different strokes!

If poetry were meant to be purely sang as songs, then they are songs. But if poetry were meant to detail an interview between the local café owner and his patron, it should be prose, an article. But the beauty of this beast is that it is neither. To me, poetry comes from the soul, and just as we drive different cars, souls speak in different tones.

I hate Rap! Yet it is R&M. It has rhyme and meter and in some cases the subject matter is pertinent. It is very much considered poetry by some. But it's just not my taste. And that's what it comes down to.

Good FV is not easy. It has an internal rhythm of its own and, I believe, if done well, rolls off the tongue like honey and good R&M. To find order in chaos, that takes skill! And, perhaps, once in a while, rules are meant to be broken, stretched?

You sir, have the floor... :)

David

[Cleo_Serapis]

I figured this would be a great topic to debate!  :wizard:  :StarWars1:

Should I or shouldn't I go here and comment?

HHmmmmm ....

I like BOTH!  :jester:

~Cleo

[Merlin]

I don’t see this as an issue, or a debate.  What I look for when I read is something that appeals to me.  The same goes for movies, for instance – I need to be entertained.  What I don’t like, I don’t bother with.

There is wonderful FV, just as there is wonderful R & M.  Equally, both have their share of lousy examples.  It is up to the writer to present a product that appeals to the reader, and readers have different tastes.

Here’s an example of a colleague who does a variety of styles –
Larylee Fraser .

You might note in Lary’s examples that she employs a lot of skills developed when she did r & m exclusively.  She knows what the rules are, and how to bend or break them.

As in the song from many years back – Do what you do, do well.

Merlin

[Cleo_Serapis]

I know exactly what you mean Merlin!  :wizard:

I don't necessarily favor one over the other. All I can say if if the piece moves me, then it stays with me!

If it additionally strikes close to home (topic dependent), then I pay more attention to the author's voice and may offer a harsher crit (for the positive).  :grinning:

Some writers have a knack for meter and can whip up a sonnet in a flash for example and some have a better voice in FV.

All in all, I never make judgments either way - I just look for the emotional response that follows a reading.  :StarWars1:

Cheers!
~Cleo  :pharoah:

[Merlin]

We're on the same wavelength, Cleo.  I will admit to leaning strongly to r & m, simply because the vast majority of fv is not up to my snuff.

I'd like to raise a comparison for consideration - - - music.

Personally, I can't stand jazz, yet it exists, and has a wide following.  In truth, it drives me to where I shut the radio off almost as fast as a jazz piece comes on.  I actually moved my radio within arm's length of the computer, for convenience sake!

Studies done on the subject show that certain music puts the mind at ease, and aids in a person's ability to study, or relax... different things.  Baroque music is said to be best.  It has also been established that teenagers can do very well studying while listening to rock.  Others may do the same with their own preference.

Music affects the brain in particular ways - even peculiar ways.

Does this relate to poetic styles?  Do some age groups prefer one over the other?  

Merlin

[Cleo_Serapis]

Here’s an example of a colleague who does a variety of styles –
Larylee Fraser .

You might note in Lary’s examples that she employs a lot of skills developed when she did r & m exclusively.  She knows what the rules are, and how to bend or break them.

As in the song from many years back – Do what you do, do well.

Merlin

Thanks Eric!

I think I may have exchanged critiques with Larylee before at PK? I recall her being from Canada and I even sent along an Invite to her for MM some time ago, but I do not think she ever received it? Perhaps you could send along an invite?

I do like her works! Thanks for sharing her link with us!

~Cleo  :pharoah:

[Cleo_Serapis]

We're on the same wavelength, Cleo.  I will admit to leaning strongly to r & m, simply because the vast majority of fv is not up to my snuff.

I'd like to raise a comparison for consideration - - - music.

Personally, I can't stand jazz, yet it exists, and has a wide following.  In truth, it drives me to where I shut the radio off almost as fast as a jazz piece comes on.  I actually moved my radio within arm's length of the computer, for convenience sake!

Studies done on the subject show that certain music puts the mind at ease, and aids in a person's ability to study, or relax... different things.  Baroque music is said to be best.  It has also been established that teenagers can do very well studying while listening to rock.  Others may do the same with their own preference.

Music affects the brain in particular ways - even peculiar ways.

Does this relate to poetic styles?  Do some age groups prefer one over the other?  

Merlin

Another good topic for discussion Eric! Thank you!  :lovie:

I will start a new thread for that one and comment in it now...

Stay tuned!
~Cleo  :pharoah:

[Merlin]

re Larylee -

The one and same, Cleo.

She is actually my "neighbor", tho we haven't met.  We live some 3 hrs apart, driving time.

Lary is a fine poet, and we keep in occasional touch.  The last I was aware, she was heavily into the haiku & oriental venues, so didn't do the other as much.  

I'll mention MM again - it's about time I said hello anyway!

Merlin

[Guest_Tao_*]

Hi Merlin and Cleo,

Thought I'd put in my 2c on comparisons. :operagal:  In my Sailor's Dirge thread in Homer, I compared fv and r&m as follows:

R&M is like Bach, fv like Mozart, though you can argue one of the true Romantics.
R&M is like swing, fv like bebop (how can smooth jazz not be relaxing?)
R&M is like Renaissance paintings and fv the impressionists.

Here’s how I feel about that modern art thing, but I still like fv done well.

Old Soul

All likes things new – I do too,
but not as much as things old I bid you.
It's the old soul in me – pray thee.
Dead men's tales and wails I like,
their creators' absence despite.

I love almost all art, modern excepted.
A blob, a square, random chaos, some toilet gear,
what the hell is it?
You call that dance, romance, music?

To a point, the avant-garde stuff is too much for me,
some just noise and gibber-ishy.
Art shocks today,
but why must we shock each other, babe?

Are technique and newness more important
than the feeling art conveys?
Or is it that we're all in shock
and that's all artists today deploy?
By choice, I'd rather be uplifted, inspired,
when I'm plump emotionally tired.

I’ll save my opions on music for the new thread. :)

David

[Guest_Tao_*]

Hi CarrieAnn,

To answer your question, “Bosa Nova” are the Portuguese words for "new sound," I believe. It is the name given to a branch of jazz that originated in Brazil in the 60’s. It’s characterized by light repeating chords of an acoustic guitar. The most famous song from it is a very recognizable The Girl From Ipanema, now the bane of elevator music! So, it’s kind of light tropical jazz.

Glad you liked my Old Soul. Now, the big question, is it r&m or fv, a hybrid?  

David

[Cleo_Serapis]

Sorry about those botched topic replies guys for this tile!

I keep forgetting that with Ikonboard, we can't use the ampersand (&) in the titles else the topic replies get confused..

I've made a change to this title, so it should work now..

[Merlin]

There's an essay that I'd like to share with those interested.  It's from a different site, but mine is not an intention to lure anyone there... I've posted a time or two and only look in now and again.  I'm not active at all at AIAP.

RGarfield is, in my mind, very knowledgeable on the subject.  His essay may be worthwhile reading.  Take a look HERE.  That is page 5 of the posting board; should you so desire, there are continuations and more great information in their Poetic Study Room which has only a page and a half of postings.  Good material throughout.

RG illustrates how a poem can evolve, instead of just being prose downward.  

Merlin

==================================================

I just realized, hours later, that you may need to be a member of ezboard to access the above links.  I'm a member, so didn't have problems.  Membership is free.

[Cleo_Serapis]

I was able to access the link Eric... and I'm not a member. :)

Nice information - I wonder if he would be willing to let us here post it (with credit to him of course)?

[Merlin]

Good noos re access!

Never hurts to ask, I'll go and ask.

M



==========
Have sent a request off to RGarfield.

[Arnfinn]

Hi Merlin,

I read RGarfield's ideas on what is poetry? I think it is a sensible wrap-up of all a poet needs to know. To me just a humble dabbler, he lays down the basic foundations of writing something for the reader in simplistic language  terms. No one can teach poetry_ as one can teach music: where there are rules, scales etc. Poetry...you pushed out by yourself. The poet is a true artist; you creat your own style, your own creativity. You work hard, writing poetry is not simple. I think one of the best aspects of writing (or trying to write poetry) is the respect you aquire for the other poets. For me, poetry is an adventure and a fun thing.

This is something I wrote the other day.


I don’t know if parents read nursery rhymes these days. But if they do, this would be the start many a child’s introduction to rhythm and form. Parents reading nursery rhymes put stresses in the verses instinctively. No one sits down beside parents to tell them how to read. They acquire the technique from their parents and their parents from their parents and so on. Rhyme and metre within form poetry is the hardest to write in my view, rather than metre and free verse poems. However, because of limitations, form poetry often lacks greatness. Sure one can write in accordance with the rules which is commendable, but what of the poem? The excitement of writing a sonnet or the hardest form, (my opinion) the villanelle is the elation of complying with m & r rules, but by most the hardest part is the writing something good.  Though the challenge is always there and that’s why poets burn the midnight oil. Free verse is self expression. But, if the subject is weak, has no flow, badly constructed and or lacks imagination, the poem will be rejected, usually with few comments. Put the same rejected free verse poem within a poetry form with m & r and it will be accepted. For me, all poetry is something produced from the mind, the main enjoyment comes of creating something for exhibition and acceptance. I can’t imagine anyone posting a piece of poetry for the purpose of a non appraisal by other poets. Poets like painters utilise several mediums, have command of the same opus but are individualists.

[Merlin]

Thanks Arn, for coming in on the thread... altho I'm also just a participant.  

1st - still no answer from RGarfield - his was a hotmail address so could be inactive.  I'll pursue the matter via the aiap site.

2nd, Arn, I really like how you worded your conclusions.  I share those views.

Merlin

[Guest_Tao_*]

Hi All,

CarrieAnn, just to add to your comparisons of form poetry as "organic" like that of classical music, you know I always liked to offer counterpoints. Most of the time it's true that music and the universe conforms to patterns, but there are some exceptions.

Mozart's Symphony #41, the Jupiter Symphony, has a finale fourth movement that combines five themes into a chaotic, contrapuntal and schizophrenic crescendo. It took me a while to get used to it, but I’m liking it more and more as the masterpiece that it is. Nature and music both seem rhythmic and chaotic to me, so once again it depends on the reader and listener’s ears which form they prefer and when. :)

David

[Cleo_Serapis]

Thanks all!

CarrieAnn has asked me to remove all her posts and member status, so I have done so per her request.

Eric - thanks so much for getting permission for MM to post any of RGarfields essays.

I've posted his "What is Good Poetry" essay in our Admirable Articles forum.

Thanks all!
Lori