Poetry Exercise #1 (updated Jan 4), Join In! Options

[JustDaniel]

dry seriousness

clear the evidence;
wipe away demeaning tears
though you can’t decry

© MLee Dickens'son 03 Jan 2003

[Athena]

If I had more wit
I'd do more than just sit
saying, ditto, ditto, dit

to all our Daniel
hath
proclaimed!

I comprehend it not
though my brain's not rot
the meaning of this plot

escapes my aim!


Sheeeeeeeesssshhhhh ....  

Happy New Year, All,  

Athena/Dolly    

[Guest_Jox_*]

Hello Dolly

(Been wanting to say that all year!)

Happy Gnu/2004/2u2.

I’m sure you’re not alone and very grateful that you “asked” for clarification.

So, for you, Daniel and everybody...

Lori started this exercise - which is still running so why don’t others take-up the cudgels?

I was first to respond with an interpretation of the poem. Lori then asked me about technical matters - rhyme etc and I replied to that, too. I did not offer my version since I don’t like re-joining poems (am sometimes tempted by stories) and did not like the verse per se.

Don then joined the thread / tile.

He offered a erudite take on the technicalities of the poem. (Far beyond my capabilities or interests).

Daniel joined the tile asking what the first verse meant.

I responded with my interpretation.

The Lori replied to Don and myself.

Next, Lori helped Daniel in his quest to understand that first verse.

Then a little discussion and banter ensued.

Page 2...

I questioned Don on the meaning of his previous submission - especially over the word “trope” and the different emphasis which he and I, apparently, placed upon the message of a poem and the way in which that message was presented.

That debate continued with...

Daniel, now yourself, saying you didn’t understand it.

Now, if anyone would like any of the debate twixt Don and myself explained I’m sure either / both he or/and I would be delighted to explain further.

In the meantime... as I said before... any more responses to Cleo’s original educational exercise (or/and please join in the sub-debate about poetry).

Hope this helps both of you and all.

James.

[Athena]

Hey James,

Thank you so much for your kind and patient explanations.  However, it is Lori's original request that's what neither Daniel nor I understood, at least that's what I didn't "get".    

I read the thread, a lot of which went over my poetic ken, and I felt none the wiser about the initial challenge/exercise when I finished.  Not having the ability to detail a poem as you fellows have, I guess I was correct to stay out of the whole thing.  

So, thanks again, and you may sing to me ANYtime!  I love it!    

Dolly    

[Guest_Jox_*]

Thanks Dolly...

But you really DO NOT want to hear my singing; please be assured!

I understand what you are saying - but I've seen you crit people's works - that's all this exercise is; a targeted crit. Lori and I, for example, drew totally different meanings from the verse. What did it mean to you? Tempted to have a go?

James.

[JustDaniel]

Excellent summary, James...

except for glossing over my three emotional responses...

Care to have a go at interpreting THEM?

[ Part of the assignment, as I interpreted it, was to write emotional responses.  Did I take too much latitude in that?

Lightly, Daniel  :sun:

[Cleo_Serapis]

Thank you all for your kind words and encouragement... and Don!  No one has ever accused me of being a teacher of poetry before. Far be it from me!

But I humbly bow in appreciation!

I stare down deep at fallen tower wall
that now lies shattered, shat on ~ gone ~
where fair and great once courted all –
but not the peon. Now it’s peed upon
(by those who dared to spill their guts withal.)  

Lightly, Daniel  

Hi Daniel!

Thanks for popping back in here!  :dance:

I stare down deep at fallen tower wall
that now lies shattered, shat on ~ gone ~
where fair and great once courted all –
but not the peon. Now it’s peed upon
(by those who dared to spill their guts withal.)  

A wonderful reply! Kudos to you for your clever response!  :cheer:
How do I interpret it (humor aside)?

I see there was a battle or perhaps a great storm that had come and toppled the tower wall. Your visual imagery are superb in what I see!  :pharoah2 In these first two lines, you've given the reader a powerful image, and in my analysis - I see three (off the bat) meanings to the opening lines.
[*]A great battle was fought and the tower collapsed.
[*]A great storm had come and now all is just ruins
[*]You can get religious too if you like as a metaphor with: the hand of God had come and smote the wall.

The rest of the stanza:
Now it's peed upon  
Perhaps a metaphor for the ruins or the storming rains?
and your most powerful last line:
(by those who dared to spill their guts withal.)
Leading me, the reader, back to the 'battle' image and warriors who fought and lost with their blood spilled upon the ruins?

I must say I think this deserves more limelight!
Well done!

Hugarooos!
~Cleo  :pharoah:

[Cleo_Serapis]

All too often the first question anyone asks is, "What does it mean?"
As a teacher of poetry, you, of all people, should know meaning is between poet and reader.  Outside of that the meaning(s) are extremely moot.

Enjoyed your poem bashing yourself. but not the subject being bashed.

Up, up and away
as annual last day
is sealed this dusk.

Dawn of a new year
for everyone's cheer.

Don

Hi Don! :)

Wow- you MUST continue these educational replies!  :wizard:

Does it matter the meaning is missed?  Not really.  Is the practice lesson verse poetic? It certainly is because it sings even if listener hears gibberish.

Absolutely! We're not always going to read a poem and say, "I agree with the message!", or "Wow - doesn't that one sing?". It is my hope, that when we read and interact here in the exercises and also in our forums here and at other boards, that we will at least understand the techniques that the writer employs and perhaps learn something as well in the interaction.


Thanks for your participation!  :sings:

Hugaroooos!
~Cleo  :pharoah:

[Cleo_Serapis]

To continue with this exercise, I am going to paste in three more stanzas, two from the middle of the poem and then the ending stanza, along with the opening.*Note:The selected stanzas are NOT in perfect sequence.

My questions this time:
[*]Has your interpretation CHANGED at all now that you have read more of this piece?
[*]What significance (if any) do you find in the title?

Please state why if either case.

Cheers!
~Cleo  

Builders of Ruins by Alice Meynell

We build with strength and deep tower wall
that shall be shattered thus and thus.
And fair and great are court and hall,
but how fair--this is not for us,
who know the lack that lurks in all.

The stars that 'twixt the rise and fall,
like relic-seers, shall one by one
stand musing o'er our empty hall;
and setting moons shall brood upon
the frescoes of our inward wall.

And where they wrought, these lives of ours,
so many-worded, many-souled,
a north-west wind will take the towers,
and dark with color, sunny and cold,
will range alone among the flowers.

And make our pause and silence brim
with the shrill children's play, and sweets
of those pathetic flowers and dim,
of those eternal flowers my Keats,
dying, felt growing over him!

[Guest_Don_*]

Excellent summary, James...

except for glossing over my three emotional responses...

Care to have a go at interpreting THEM?

[ Part of the assignment, as I interpreted it, was to write emotional responses.  Did I take too much latitude in that?

Lightly, Daniel  

Hi Just Daniel,

I agree, James' summary is well done and suggestion to return to original lesson wise.  

On my behalf, I have noticed your poetic inserts at intersections and wondered as they puzzled me.  As you say, they are emotional responses to Lori's original lesson from "Builders of Ruins" and following comments, I shall dip my line into those buckets as a Simple Simon.

Don

[Guest_Jox_*]

Daniel,

Hi; I don't think that I glossed-over you emotional responses did I? I simply omitted them altogether - sorry! I will try to go through them later if I may.

Cleo...

Absolutely! We're not always going to read a poem and say, "I agree with the message!", or "Wow - doesn't that one sing?". It is my hope, that when we read and interact here in the exercises and also in our forums here and at other boards, that we will at least understand the techniques that the writer employs and perhaps learn something as well in the interaction.

Your aspirations are nobel. However, agreeing with the message is not the point; understanding a message is. Techniques are merely there to serve the overall purpose. Now, the purpose might include tonal lyricism but language, ultimatly, is a communicator. It is there to communicate a message - which may be emotional or logical or both - but message there usually is.

So I hope that, by understanding technique, writers will be able to employ some themselves to convey our messages better. Moreover, such understanding will enable us to better see the message in works which read. But I am anxious that we should not see techniques as the raison d'etre of poems. That would be like admiring a railway track, rather than appreciating that it is importsnt in conveying one to one's destination.

Maybe we're saying similar things but focusing upon different areas?

Cheerio for now and well done for starting this again.

[Guest_Jox_*]

Builders of Ruins by Alice Meynell >> The title is the correct answer - “42” was a mis-calculation.

We build with strength and deep tower wall
that shall be shattered thus and thus.
And fair and great are court and hall,
but how fair--this is not for us, >> Why the double-dash?
who know the lack that lurks in all.

The stars that 'twixt the rise and fall, >> Hate “twixt” - the word is “betwixt” Also, stars don’t muse - this is an excellent example of what (in literature) is called “pathetic fallacy”.
like relic-seers, shall one by one
stand musing o'er our empty hall; >> Hate “o’er” - the word is “over”
and setting moons shall brood upon >> Ah! Brooding moons (plural?) is an even better eg of “pathetic fallacy”!
the frescoes of our inward wall.

And where they wrought, these lives of ours,
so many-worded, many-souled,
a north-west wind will take the towers,
and dark with color, sunny and cold,
will range alone among the flowers. >> There is a Chinese saying that, just as one gets one’s garden in good order, so winds blow across it to destory it again. Back to that title!

And make our pause and silence brim
with the shrill children's play, and sweets
of those pathetic flowers and dim,
of those eternal flowers my Keats,  >> One of my least favourite poets - despite his spending time here, in my own city (Winchester). Wilfred Owen aped Keats in his early poems - ugh! It was only war which forged him into the poet he became.
dying, felt growing over him!

Yup, this is definitely “42” writ somewhat differently to Douglas Adams. Overall I “like” that message but don’t care for its expression at all. Mind you, I suspect this is Victorian. That period and I never get on - not literature, music, architecture, the British Empire or anything else really. Still, she was published and people must like it so good luck to her (though I suspect I’m too late!)

My interpretation changed? No, not at all - extremely surprised how close I was then to now - spot-on, actually. Very odd.

[Guest_Don_*]

All too often the first question anyone asks is, "What does it mean?"
As a teacher of poetry, you, of all people, should know meaning is between poet and reader.  Outside of that the meaning(s) are extremely moot.

Enjoyed your poem bashing yourself. but not the subject being bashed.

Up, up and away
as annual last day
is sealed this dusk.

Dawn of a new year
for everyone's cheer.

Don

[b]Hi Don! :)

Wow- you MUST continue these educational replies!  

Does it matter the meaning is missed?  Not really.  Is the practice lesson verse poetic? It certainly is because it sings even if listener hears gibberish.

Absolutely! We're not always going to read a poem and say, "I agree with the message!", or "Wow - doesn't that one sing?". It is my hope, that when we read and interact here in the exercises and also in our forums here and at other boards, that we will at least understand the techniques that the writer employs and perhaps learn something as well in the interaction.


Thanks for your participation!  

Hugaroooos!
~Cleo  

Hi Cleo,

I am honestly blushing.. ...if such exists.
As has been said, how can a blush, which requires foreknowledge, show innocence?  

My meager poetic knowledge is a mental chapbook filled with notes taken at street level.  Sometime less than three years ago, I decided to try poetry from almost total ignorance.  Since, it has become a serious hobby.  I enjoy sharing the little gleaned from others openly sharing.

Assuredly, I am a rotten teacher; and sincerely hope my prattle is not seen as snobbish priesthood. The reaped crop of speaking, which proves beyond doubt the fool within, is those wishing not to learn are looking for scapegoats.

My sincerest thanks to your (& gang) success with Mosaicmusings LLC which provides an excellent forum for advancement of all writing--especially poetic arts for my selfish goals.  

We all probably have seen our share of raw beginning poets.  Ugh! I review my first verses to also be UGH!  Although, the members at this site, I've encountered, are well beyond UGH stage, surely some are among us whom welcome guidance into the manifold treasures of poetic practices.

My assumption is all members and those coming desire to share for growth at personal pace and satisfaction.

Thank you for encouraging me to continue proving myself the fool by expounding esetoric prattle.

Don

[Cleo_Serapis]

It is my honor and pleasure Don! :)

[Guest_Don_*]

To continue with this exercise, I am going to paste in three more stanzas, two from the middle of the poem and then the ending stanza, along with the opening.*Note:The selected stanzas are NOT in perfect sequence.

My questions this time:
[*]Has your interpretation CHANGED at all now that you have read more of this piece?
[*]What significance (if any) do you find in the title?

Please state why if either case.

Cheers!
~Cleo  

Builders of Ruins by Alice Meynell

We build with strength and deep tower wall
that shall be shattered thus and thus.
And fair and great are court and hall,
but how fair--this is not for us,
who know the lack that lurks in all.

The stars that 'twixt the rise and fall,
like relic-seers, shall one by one
stand musing o'er our empty hall;
and setting moons shall brood upon
the frescoes of our inward wall.

And where they wrought, these lives of ours,
so many-worded, many-souled,
a north-west wind will take the towers,
and dark with color, sunny and cold,
will range alone among the flowers.

And make our pause and silence brim
with the shrill children's play, and sweets
of those pathetic flowers and dim,
of those eternal flowers my Keats,
dying, felt growing over him!

Hi Cleo,

Yes, my original interpretation is altered, not replaced, by addition of Keats.

I took Alice Meynell's  verse as essentially "Ozymandias" by Percy Bysshe Shelley.  Rather than Shelley she paid homage to works of Keats.  Therefore, my interpretation as fate for everyone's efforts is also that of the giant, Keats, insightful romantic poetry.  I see an internal reference to love (Keats was known best for love poems) being the strongest of all as being the deep tower. This is a simile and metaphor between the greatest emotion, love, and strongest known physical structure.  Also architecture & poetry.

I still intend to look up full verse of "Builders of Ruins" and her comparable contemporaneousness with Shelley and Keats.

Don

[Guest_Don_*]

Hi Jox,

Enjoyed your comments upon additional verses supplied to exercise.

First time I've encountered "pathetic fallacy."  Is this a valid poetic device today?  Is it related to personification of objects, common to poetry?

You wrote, "My interpretation changed? No, not at all-extremely surprised how close I was then to now..."

    Your instincts are fine tuned to visualize the moonscape from a sample rock.  Congratulations!

Thanks for the insights.

Don

[Guest_Don_*]

If I had more wit
I'd do more than just sit
saying, ditto, ditto, dit

to all our Daniel
hath
proclaimed!

I comprehend it not
though my brain's not rot
the meaning of this plot

escapes my aim!


Sheeeeeeeesssshhhhh ....  

Happy New Year, All,  

Athena/Dolly    

Hi Athena/Minerva/Dolly,

Along with your multiple duties, you are goddess of knowledge and learning.
Your sweet verse combined with a later comment pronounced from Olympic seat tells me:
Refuse to play with hammer and nails
for poetry composed in garbled details
consists of escargo and puppy dog tails.

You took the time to say it well.

Don

[Guest_Don_*]

dry seriousness

clear the evidence;
wipe away demeaning tears
though you can’t decry

© Daniel J Ricketts 03 Jan 2003

Hi Daniel,

I rather read these three lines as

Cease crocodile tears
you really can't cry.


A simple yes or no response to veracity would be appreciated.


Don

[Guest_Don_*]

Dear Jox,

Who would have predicted how lively this practice lesson of Cleo’s would become?

Everyone has sacred temples in which they despise seeing muddy feet.

The dust has settled and the crows are plucking my corpse from battlefield.  My person  fell in touting the trip is worth more than destination—ultimately death.  The devil is in the details for some of us.  Treasure hunt adventure evaporates upon acquisition.  Proving the invention functions is more relishing than invention.  Excitement and challenge of climb exceeds planting the flag.  Smelling the flowers is the purpose of journey to dead destination.  Please Mr. Custer, I don’t want to go.

The skeleton message is as necessary to poetry as mind is to body because one cannot exist without the other.  Although infatuated with imagination and creativity, I am unlikely to throw baby of reason out with fantasy bathwater.

I would dearly like to learn Gaelic and Welsh, which I believe are potentially far more poetic than limitations of English language in which I am incarcerated by birth and environment…a propitious accident of geography nevertheless.  

You spoke of haiku to which I sneeze achoo.  A refined Dutchman introduced me to some of the finer points of haiku… later I saw a l..o..n..g list of proper criterion and decided English sonnets are for  Anglos and haikus for Asians.

“Will you will or will you won’t?  Won’t you dance with me?”
--Lewis Carroll.

   
Don

[Cleo_Serapis]

After reading the additional stanzas, my interpretation has changed to one of mankind just being a small particle in the grand scheme of the universe. I also see this as the author writing about herself, specifically, self-worth. As confidence builds (the wall) the hall (image of oneself) is great. As battles are fought (interactions with others), sometimes, the psyche is shaken (torn down).

Very clever!