Showcase Forums ~ a new suggestion, Copyright Protection/Archiving Options

[Cleo_Serapis]

Hello all.

A few questions were raised recently to me regarding archiving critiqued works for personal publication activities relating to copyright ownership. One of these questions was on how to delete threads once the writer felt they were polished enough (as they don't wish them to remain in the public forums). The heart of this request was based on crawlers in the public forums as well as people 'potentially stealing' the works. It all harkens back to the question of copyright. We've posted a thorough Copyright thread at the following URL after discussing the concerns with our site attorney a few years ago.
http://forums.mosaicmusings.net/index.php?showtopic=791

Since MM is positioned as a 'writer's workshop' I shutter at the thought of threads being deleted, as there would then be no record of that interaction ever taking place, nor all the time and effort spent by the membership to help the writer through (the excellent feedback process,) the revisions incorporated into the polished work. This interaction (we share here at Mosaic Musings) is an integral part of our continued growth and evolvement as confident and competent writers.

As it goes with internet forums, all we can do is try to utilize what tools we have available to protect ourselves, but there is never a guarantee in the public arena that some sleezebag won't try to steal works - this is whole intent of the copyright laws - to protect the original author. Someone once told me the best way to 'prove' your works are your own is to do one of two things (actually three things) in the age of the internet:

1. Print out your work is its original un-edited format (prior to revisions being made) and mail it to yourself through the post office. Then, never open the envelope. The postmark date serves as the original creation date and proof should you ever need to seek legal action in a court of law.
   
2. Copy your work onto a disc and file it away in your personal files. This is another record of the creation date and proof of authorship.
   
3. Post your original version on the internet (like we do here at MM) which also proves original creator and date.

This site is public and some forums are visible to users who are not 'logged in'. Even with membership requirements to post here, there are still no guarantees that one of our own members might be dishonest enough to steal a work too, I've seen it happen at other poetry forums. I'm not saying anyone has or would, but I'm just saying, it's a possibility.

All posts in MM's PUBLIC forums can be crawled by search engines. It doesn't change the fact that you are the copyright owner and except for the limited writes given to MM in our terms of service (visit homepage), anyone copying your works or otherwise misusing them is in direct violation of your copyright. All exclusive rights are reserved by the respective copyright owners and no redistribution including publication or reproduction in any form is permitted without express permission of the copyright owner.

This question comes up at many public writing sites. You can most certainly publish your works in an ebook, paperback, chapbook etc.. as you wish and your copyright remains with you, irregardless of whether or not your content was workshopped on the net. Deleting posts here is not something I'd like to see happen. The intent of this forum is to polish your work through the act of feedback and critique and open the doors to becoming better at our craft. It's this interaction that brings forth better writing.

This brings me to the meat of this thread: Highlighting our Showcase forums and suggesting a change to them as a potential solution for removal in the pubnlic forum into a private one. These showcase forums can be created for any member who wishes to have one for 'polished works'. We should make them 'private forums' - for members only (meaning you must be logged in to click into them just like our "Acropolis" and "Sanctuary" forums for example) - that way, they can't be crawled since the intent of them is for polished works anyway.

Then, we could offer a choice to those who have these showcase forums: we can move your threads into them (with all the commentary) only when they are polished - all you'd have to do is ask a mod (Liz, Cathy, Snow or myself). This would achieve three things: clean up the crit forums, carry forward all the commentary within the post so other readers can see what had gone into the revision process, all the feedback, suggestions and revisions the writer had made in the process, and prevent those posts from being 'crawled' from that point forward. It takes a bit for the search engines to get 'caught up' but eventually, you shouldn't be able to search them.

The other option is to allow the members to just do a copy/paste and create new tiles in their showcases as we have done so far. With this option, their original posts would remain in the crit forums and could still be crawled and constructively workshopped. But a second post would exist strictly in the showcase without any of the commentary attached to it.

I have the showcase forums currently set up as 'no replies allowed'. I would still want to keep them that way. These showcase forums are like a library for our members and its something that not a lot of forum boards offer for free. It's an all or nothing decision though on the Private/public question as these showcase forums are set up by membergroup permissions, therefore, I would simply make them not viewable to guests.

Please consider our suggestion and let us know your thoughts by replying to this tile. I can create a showcase forum for members who inquire and then we can go from there. We can either move entire threads into them or leave that choice up to you.

Regards
Lori

[Cleo_Serapis]

Hi Don.

I never asked if you'd like a showcase cubby for your works here? I am of the mindset as the others, and like to think a work is always open to further critiques and revisions. One question that lingers for me is this: When a poem is published (wherever that may be) and then further revisions are made to it, is it still considered published by publisher standards? I'd venture to guess that the answer is 'yes' but each publisher you ask will give you a different answer.

We have plenty of dataspace at MM for archiving, not deleting of our workshopping efforts.

As for crawlers, if you are a member on a completely paid-only private forum, then spiders cannot crawl that site. Likewise (although I'll confirm this), when you have 'private, members-only forums' within a public site, those forums cannot be crawled, such as our Acropolis and Sanctuary. Only forums viewable to 'guests' (when you're not logged in) can be crawled.

As for your search efforts, I can assist you. It's actually not as hard as one thinks, there are a few different ways to search here at IPB. You can use the 'advanced search' method (see the FAQ forum for details) or you can search within a forum too (i.e. Herme's) by 'Order: Topic Starter'.

Cheers
~Cleo

[Guest_Don_*]

Hi Don.

I never asked if you'd like a showcase cubby for your works here? I am of the mindset as the others, and like to think a work is always open to further critiques and revisions. One question that lingers for me is this: When a poem is published (wherever that may be) and then further revisions are made to it, is it still considered published by publisher standards? I'd venture to guess that the answer is 'yes' but each publisher you ask will give you a different answer.

We have plenty of dataspace at MM for archiving, not deleting of our workshopping efforts.

As for crawlers, if you are a member on a completely paid-only private forum, then spiders cannot crawl that site. Likewise (although I'll confirm this), when you have 'private, members-only forums' within a public site, those forums cannot be crawled, such as our Acropolis and Sanctuary. Only forums viewable to 'guests' (when you're not logged in) can be crawled.

As for your search efforts, I can assist you. It's actually not as hard as one thinks, there are a few different ways to search here at IPB. You can use the 'advanced search' method (see the FAQ forum for details) or you can search within a forum too (i.e. Herme's) by member name.

Cheers
~Cleo

Hi Cleo,

I've been aware that any member may have a showcase if desired. I've just never considered my work thus far ready to be carved in stone.

I agree that the general rule is unless a poem is significantly revised, with probably a different title, the orginal publication copyright date is valid. Of course simply changing a title would not abort copyright. If anyone essentially copies verbatum, it is plagerism. I apply this thought to whether or not my own work should be considered plagerism--a revision--or justify a new copyright date assigned by myself. Obviously not a black and white line, but my personal records comply to this ruling.

I used to firmly believe that submissions on forums similar to MM to be workshop and not published. As you may well know it depends upon the potential publisher or contest rules. I imagine it is like traditional publishers avoiding hassle of anything with a first copyright, to reuse themselves. Any public exposure is sometimes rejected to avoid potential unforeseen complications.

Thanks for explaining what currently blocks webcrawlers.

I usually use "advanced search" due to failing to learn how to use the other options. One of these days, I promise myself, I will bring a candle to the hidden crevices of search techniques. Thanks for your offer to help as I am certain your knowledge will add illumination.

Upon reading this thread, I've learned another use for personal space at MM besides self aggrandisment.

May I clarify, what may have not been before, that even winners and published works of mine are not considered immutably complete. I am certain others consider works complete, if by virtue of lacking time to revisit; and a safe haven from crawlers is valid. I keep my own records knowing that software changes often force blowing away the past. Having a second record, say at MM, is beneficial when one purchases a new system without media drives upon which home records are maintained. How many of us remember the 5 1/4-inch diskettes?

Don