Words [Rev 2, 27 Oct], Rhyme in Heptameter Options

[Larry]

Revision #2 (thanks to Mary, Merlin & Amythyst)

Words

Strange lines, woven together in an odd, haphazard way,
are writhing on with twists and turns. Across the centuries
they’re painted, coarsely carved in caves; all meaning lost today,
or finely penned on parchment in precise calligraphy‘s

revealing goodness, evil, love or hatred, truth or lies;
reside where they’re ensconced, awaiting one who understands.
When heralding a birth or etched in stone at one’s demise,
each line is new. Though used before by many different hands;

they’re easily affordable to paupers and to kings.
The cost is naught but knowledge of their structure and portent.
Lines neither know the smiles or tears their convolution brings,
nor wait, with baited breath, returns, from where they’re sometimes sent.

From animal caricatures to geometric forms,
these lines give meaning to a thought, a way, a time or place.
Linguistically elusive, yet their shape, like mother’s arms;
when understood, brings to the mind the Words in warm embrace.

Dedicated to Wordsmiths everywhere and everywhen.

[Merlin]

Hi Larry,
I would encourage fewer end-stopped pairs and more enjambos. Your V1 could read:

The lines, all strung together in a strange haphazard way
are writhing on with twists and turns across the centuries,
So [all] coarsely carved within a cave. Their meaning lost today,
or [is] finely penned on parchment in precise calligraphy's.

You've completely lost me as to why "calligraphy" down in L4 is apostro-traumatized. Plural? Possessive? Typo?

The fragment that is V2L1 could easily be remedied as:
Some tell [of] good and evil, love and hate, or truth and lies.
It could also be melded in L2 to make a sentence.

Merlin

[Larry]

Merlin,
(What an appropriate name) for you are a wizard with words and your critiques are always helpful in improving/polishing potential gems to their deserved lustre.

I see your point in V1/L3&4, and should probably change those to words to "from" and "to" respectively. I can't use "all" because they are not all carved within a cave. Perhaps this would be better:

The lines, all strung together in a strange haphazard way
are writhing on with twists and turns across the centuries;
from coarsely carved within a cave, their meaning lost today;
to finely penned on parchment in precise calligraphies.

(I wasn't sure about the "y" or "ies" and, yes, (calligraphy's/ies) was supposed to be plural.)

Excellent suggestion for V2/L1! Do you think this would work?

Some tell of good and evil, love and hate, or truth and lies;
are resting where they're placed, awaiting one who understands.

I know I use far too many end-stops and not nearly enough enjambments and will strive to work on that and other technical aspects of my poetry but after writing for more than 40 years, good and bad habits are hard to break or change.

Again, thanks for the crits and insight.

Larry

[Eisa]

Hi Larry

Well done at writing this in pentameter - something I've never got round to trying myself. You've done an excellent job imo. You have some excellent rhyme words - I love 'centuries/ calligraphy's'

I agree with Merlin about the enjambment, but I'm sure this piece would only need a little work to include some.

Great read

Snow

[Larry]

Hi Snow,

Like I told John, old habits are difficult to break/change. Does "imo" mean "in my opinion"? Looks like something one would use in text messaging.
Anyway, thank you for your kind words on my choice of rhyme. May I please correct you on the quantity of "feet" in each line? There are seven, making it, as stated, a rhyme in heptameter whereas pentameter has only five.

Larry

[Eisa]

Hi Larry - My mistake (writing in a hurry) of course this is heptameter, which is more diffficult than pentameter. Yes imo does mean in my opinion. I agree that old habits die hard - I never used to use enjambment at all - found it difficult, now that I've got used to it I use it more frequently.
Nice revision - I'm wondering if some of the semicolons could be replace by commas - seems to be a lot of them. Just a thought!

Snow

[Larry]

Snow,
Good thought! You're probably right about the semicolons. My punctuation skills have never been a strong point. I might figuratively shout to my MM peers: "Is There An English Teacher In The House?". If so, HELP ME, PLEASE!

Thank you,
Larry

[Mary Boren]

Hi Larry. I have the feeling we've met before, but I may have you confused with someone else. In any case, it's a pleasure. You may be new to MM, but clearly form poetry is not new to you. I'm seeing an exceptional grasp of the rudiments of rhyme and meter. And you've chosen a subject here that is dear to the heart of any wordsmith. No doubt everyone here has a cupboard full of poem poems. We couldn't subsist on a steady diet of 'em, but there's nothing wrong with shop talk on occasion.

Others have already picked up on a couple of things I would have mentioned -- the misuse of "calligraphies" and overuse of semicolons. The minor punctuational revisions haven't really altered the endstopped character of these lines, but singsonginess is not an issue in heptameter. I like enjambment because it's closer to the rhythms of natural speech and allows more freedom in rhyming. But it's an acquired taste, still objectionable to many of the old school, and in matters of personal taste who's to say one's right and another wrong? Forgive me if I'm telling you things you already know.

My favorite bits in this are:

writhing on with twists and turns across the centuries

My first thought was that writhing is not an accurate picture, but it grew on me. It not only connotes the the pangs of birth and death, it also plants a subliminal connection with writing. The twists and turns conjure images of an unhurried voyage down the river of time.

resting where they're placed, awaiting one who understands

This brings to mind James Elroy Flecker's To a Poet a Thousand Years Hence. One of my favorites.

heralding a birth or etched in stone at one's demise

These words are extremely well put-together. A perfect example of the economy of language that makes poetry touch us on an elevated plane. In other circles, "etched in stone" would likely draw a hail of "Cliche!" responses, but I wouldn't be among the chorus.

Now to the nitpicking:

Way too many thes, theys, and variations thereof. Those lazy little pronouns will gang up by the water cooler all day if you allow it -- replace 'em with working words. With the exception of the bits quoted above, the poem tells rather than shows.

The lines, all strung together in a strange haphazard way

I think there are better adjectives to describe well-crafted lines, but maybe that's not what you have in mind. Even so, you need a comma after strange.

Some tell of good and evil, love and hate, or truth and lies;
are resting where they're placed, awaiting one who understands.

There's something wrong with this sentence. If you take away the modifying clauses, you have "Some tell ... are resting." Easily fixed, but I'm not going to suggest a fix and deprive you of the joy of finding your own.

forever new but used before by many different hands.

Are words used by hands? Penned by hands, used by minds, I would think.

They neither know the smiles nor tears their convolution brings,
or wait with baited breath, returns, from where they're sometimes sent.

This is pretty convoluted in itself, Larry. It doesn't make sense to me. "They neither know ... or wait ... returns?" Are you intending "returns" as a verb or a noun? Seems a long way around to express the idea that words don't have an emotional investment in us. Is that anywhere close to what you're saying?

From animal caricatures to geometric forms,

How do you scan this line, Larry? Unless you pronounce caricature in a way I've never heard, your meter goes south here.

from AN / i mal / CAR i / ca TURES ...

Linguistically elusive, yet their shape, like mother's arms;
when understood, brings to the mind the Words, in warm embrace.

Sounds pretty, but what does it mean? Again, your syntax may be working against logic here. Are you saying the shape of the words is like mother's arms? The words' shape brings the words to mind? I'm lost.

I hope I've offered something helpful. I'll be watching you with interest.

Mary

[Merlin]

Hi again, Larry,

Tis I once again. Let me attack V1, since the beginning is most important anywhere, and I feel yours needs a bit more work. I get lost completely with the semis, so lets park them, ok.

The lines, all strung together in a strange haphazard way
are writhing on with twists and turns across the centuries;
from coarsely carved within a cave, their meaning lost today;
to finely penned on parchment in precise calligraphy's.

Why don't you say, The lines, all strung together in a strange, haphazard way are writhing on with twists and turns across the centuries, from coarsely carved to finely penned, their meaning lost today, inside a cave on parchments in precise calligraphy.

Looking at it this way,
The lines, all strung together in a strange, haphazard way
are writhing on with twists and turns across the centuries,
from coarsely carved to finely penned, their meaning lost today,
inside a cave on parchments in precise calligraphy.

It would be "calligraphies", but since it is already a word describing multiple things, (like family, group, herd, etc) plural isn't necessary. For this reader, I'll gladly allow that slant rhyme to pass. You do have a poetic license, don't you?

There tis

Merlin

[AMETHYST]

Hi Larry,

I am beginning to look forward to sneaking into your threads. There has been such pleasures found each time. I see that you've received some strong and indepth critique and feedback already. So please forgive me if I reiterate or take a point already offered and expand my own thoughts as well.

...

Words

The title, thought simple, serves its position quite well come the end of the poem. As well as leads the reader in with a curiosity through its simplicity. A good choice. IMO

The lines, all strung together in a strange haphazard way
are writhing on with twists and turns across the centuries;
from coarsely carved within a cave, their meaning lost today;
to finely penned on parchment in precise calligraphy's.

The opening stanza is tight and crisp with images that express strong detail in meaning. Such as, in line 2, "are writhing on with twists and turns ...' It allows the reader to paint a picture of words taking shape in one's mind, as path or road that bends and narrows, turns and changes ... sort of like life or life force of its own. I felt this was a powerful image that captured my interest. In L3, ' ...coarsely carved within a cave, ... I also thought a fresh way of showing us the back to caveman times and how they carved images to express things as we do today with letters and a multitude of vehicles to write with. However, at end of L3 and L4 ... I felt that what you were trying to say was that in origins when writing was figures and drawings to represent what we now use letters and words to express ... those original ways to write and express have been lost as we now use parchment and the delicacyof calligraphy.

I think I kept wanting to say ... those drawings, carved within a cave, hold no meaning today/ to finely penned ...

Perhaps I am off in the intent or this weakens the meaning, so please discard or overlook if not within your intent. Or perhaps it might be an easy change in L2 to substitute that ; to , and begin L3 with 'when'

Some tell of good and evil, love and hate, or truth and lies;
are resting where they're placed, awaiting one who understands.
Though heralding a birth or etched in stone at one's demise;
forever new but used before by many different hands.

L1, I thought the 3 and's in the line felt fillerish. I like what the meaning is expressing. This stanza, follows up from S1 with nicely executed turn to bring 'words' to life. Enhancing the idea set in the readers mind that they have a life force of their own.
In L3, I wanted to say 'Wheather ...' as if regardless of what they are doing ... rejoicing a birth or expressing despair by being etched in stone at one's demise/ forever new, although penned before by many different hands.
(These are not suggested rewrites, as they are not within the meter/line length of the poem, but an attempt to show the change in words on how I perceive the meaning and to try and smooth out clarity. In L4, 'using although shows they are used by some with fresh with each 'new' event or expression, even though these words have been written before by someone else.)

What I liked most of this stanza was the condensing of the values we have placed on words to express the great depth of our life experiences. Over all, nicely done!

They're easily affordable to paupers and to kings;
for cost is naught but knowledge of their structure and portent.
They neither know the smiles nor tears their convolution brings,
or wait with baited breath, returns, from where they're sometimes sent.

I enjoyed the inner rhymes that seemed to bounce from one sound to another ... such as in 'affordable/paupers/cost/naught ... these all seemed to me to add just the right rhythm to bring movement to the stanza. I didn't read through all of your responses received, but scanned some and I do agree with Mary that L3/L4 lose me a bit. I know what you are saying, but felt it can be expressed with more clarity.

I will return to this with hopefully a worthy suggestion... it's like right on the tip of my mind and isn't to my finger tips yet! :)

From animal caricatures to geometric forms,
these lines give meaning to a thought, a way, a time, a place.
Linguistically elusive, yet their shape, like mother's arms;
when understood, brings to the mind the Words, in warm embrace.

L4, perhaps ...
when understood, brings to the mind, in words ... a warm embrace.

I love the intention of showing words taking shape and showing compareson to the warmth of a mothers arms around you...

I enjoyed this, Larry so very much... and although I felt there is still some work to be done to reach it's highest potential, I do have to give applause to how wonderful the read is presently.

Blessings, Liz

[Larry]

Hello Mary, Merlin & Amethyst,
Now that is what I am looking for in critiques...Substance and Reasoning!
If I may, let me answer you all as a group.

Yes Mary, we have met "online" but never in person. Some years ago, you invited me to join Tenderbytes.
Does that jog your memory?
The longest poem…

Now to your nits:
Mary’s Nit #1 & #1A
Way too many thes, theys, and variations thereof. Those lazy little pronouns will gang up by the water cooler all day if you allow it -- replace 'em with working words. With the exception of the bits quoted above, the poem tells rather than shows.

Don’t they though! Three “the’s” or variations in both sentences.

The lines, all strung together in a strange haphazard way
I think there are better adjectives to describe well-crafted lines, but maybe that's not what you have in mind. Even so, you need a comma after strange.

Seems like you all attacked V1L1-4. I was looking at these "lines" (not well crafted lines of words) , merely lines (----------) through the eyes of ignorance or illiteracy. If one does not understand what the lines form, they are strange and haphazardly connected; not finely penned. Even a finely penned group of words looks incomprehensible to someone who has no knowledge of their meaning. If reworded in the following manner, it may alleviate the confusion:

Strange lines, woven together in an odd, haphazard way,
are writhing on with twists and turns. Across the centuries
they’re painted, coarsely carved in caves, all meaning lost today.
Lines finely penned on parchment in precise calligraphy’s,

Nit #2:
Some tell of good and evil, love and hate, or truth and lies;
are resting where they're placed, awaiting one who understands.
There's something wrong with this sentence. If you take away the modifying clauses, you have "Some tell ... are resting." Easily fixed, but I'm not going to suggest a fix and deprive you of the joy of finding your own.

Some...are resting, not Some tell...are resting. Again, confusion caused by punctuation. Maybe I shouldn't use "Some" at all.
Let’s try this…

revealing goodness, evil, love or hatred, truth or lies;
reside where they’re ensconced, awaiting one who understands.

Nit #3
forever new but used before by many different hands.
Are words used by hands? Penned by hands, used by minds, I would think.

I am talking about the "lines" which form words, not the "words" themselves. I am talking about the lines formed (or used) by one’s hand to create words. So yes, hands do use words; as do mouths. Minds merely tell mouths and hands how to use those lines to make recognizable words, symbols or understandable drawings. I think everyone is seeing “lines” but are reading “words” instead. S1L1 lets the reader know that the lines which form words is what the poem is all about.

Nit #4
They neither know the smiles nor tears their convolution brings,
or wait with baited breath, returns, from where they're sometimes sent.
This is pretty convoluted in itself, Larry. It doesn't make sense to me. "They neither know ... or wait ... returns?" Are you intending "returns" as a verb or a noun? Seems a long way around to express the idea that words don't have an emotional investment in us. Is that anywhere close to what you're saying?

Returns, in this context, is a noun…Answers/Return Mail/etc. Once again, you are reading “words” into your thoughts. Read “lines”. I didn’t get my “or” and “nor” in the right places so that may have added to your confusion. Would “Lines” be a better title? I’ll try it the following way and see if that doesn’t clarify the thought.

Lines neither know the smiles or tears their convolution brings,
nor wait, with baited breath, returns, from where they’re sometimes sent..

Nit #5
From animal caricatures to geometric forms,
How do you scan this line, Larry? Unless you pronounce caricature in a way I've never heard, your meter goes south here.
from AN / i mal / CAR i / ca TURES ...

I assume you are referring to stressed and unstressed syllables. The actual pronunciations from both Webster’s and Roget’s stress only the first syllable in each word. “An uh mal / Kar uh kuh churs” I was simply trying to get rid of some of the “Ta da, Ta da, Ta da”. The line does contain seven metric feet, however those words are pronounced and stressed or unstressed, and is therefore perfect heptameter.

Mary & Amethyst’s Nit #6:
Linguistically elusive, yet their shape, like mother's arms;
when understood, brings to the mind the Words, in warm embrace.
Mary's...Are you saying the shape of the words is like mother's arms? The words' shape brings the words to mind? I'm lost.

Amethyst's...I didn't read through all of your responses received, but scanned some and I do agree with Mary that L3/L4 lose me a bit. I know what you are saying, but felt it can be expressed with more clarity.

Let’s try this without being poetic. Once again, I am writing about “lines” and the shapes utilized to form words. The shape of the “lines”, not the words themselves, are linguistically elusive until one understands what is being written and the meaning thereof. When understood, the mind warmly embraces the words formed by those lines and figuratively hugs them in recognition like a mother embracing her child.

Merlin’s Nit #1:
Let me attack V1, since the beginning is most important anywhere, and I feel yours needs a bit more work. I get lost completely with the semis, so lets park them, ok.

The semicolon problem is/has been solved by rewriting V1, taking out some of the punctuation marks and adding clarity (I hope).

Why don't you say, The lines, all strung together in a strange, haphazard way are writhing on with twists and turns across the centuries, from coarsely carved to finely penned, their meaning lost today, inside a cave on parchments in precise calligraphy.

Merlin, did you carefully read what you wanted me to change L4 to read? I doubt you will find very many parchments with or without precise calligraphy inside a cave. This may not be what you meant but it is how the sentence reads. Besides, there are too many comma’s in a row. Semicolons should be used in long sentences; especially when utilized between coordinate clauses not connected by coordinate conjunctions.

Merlin’s Semi-Nit #2:
It would be "calligraphies", but since it is already a word describing multiple things, (like family, group, herd, etc) plural isn't necessary. For this reader, I'll gladly allow that slant rhyme to pass. You do have a poetic license, don't you?

Your allowances are appreciated and I concur with your reasoning. It matches my research into that particular word’s usage and how it should be used in both singular and plural contexts. My poetic license is paid in full and utilized often.

Amethyst’s Nit #1:
However, at end of L3 and L4 ... I felt that what you were trying to say was that in origins when writing was figures and drawings to represent what we now use letters and words to express ... those original ways to write and express have been lost as we now use parchment and the delicacy of calligraphy.
I think I kept wanting to say ... those drawings, carved within a cave, hold no meaning today/ to finely penned ...

I was trying to say that throughout history, mankind & womankind (:->) have used “lines” to form pictograms, symbols, animals, words, etc. to relate a message and pass on to others what they were thinking. Those original ways to write are only “lost” if one does not know the meaning of what is formed by those “lines” or how to translate the words/pictograms formed by the usage of the “lines” in shaping them.

Amethyst's Nit #2
Perhaps I am off in the intent or this weakens the meaning, so please discard or overlook if not within your intent. Or perhaps it might be an easy change in L2 to substitute that ; to , and begin L3 with 'when'

Moot point now. Check out the rewrite and let me know if it is better or verse.

QUOTE
Some tell of good and evil, love and hate, or truth and lies;
are resting where they're placed, awaiting one who understands.
Though heralding a birth or etched in stone at one's demise;
forever new but used before by many different hands.

Amethyst's Nit #3
L1, I thought the 3 and's in the line felt fillerish. Fixed.I like what the meaning is expressing. This stanza, follows up from S1 with nicely executed turn to bring 'words' to life. Enhancing the idea set in the readers mind that they have a life force of their own.
In L3, I wanted to say 'Wheather ...' as if regardless of what they are doing ... rejoicing a birth or expressing despair by being etched in stone at one's demise/ forever new, although penned before by many different hands.
(These are not suggested rewrites, as they are not within the meter/line length of the poem, but an attempt to show the change in words on how I perceive the meaning and to try and smooth out clarity. In L4, 'using although shows they are used by some with fresh with each 'new' event or expression, even though these words (lines) have been (used to make words) written before by someone else.)

Again with the “penned”! Hands have used burnt stick-ends, ochre colored mud on a finger, sharp rocks, dyes, feathers, inks, pens, etc. to form “lines” which make up pictograms, hieroglyphics, animal shapes, letters, scientific notations, et al. The mind may control what the hand does but the hand “uses” all these instruments of writing to make lines on whatever substance available to communicate ideas through whatever language known at that time. If you are not familiar with what is being written, the lines which form that communication of ideas looks like doodles and scribbles. This does not necessarily mean the lines formed words as you and I perceive them. They are only “words”, even if they are not actually words, when one understands.

The “lines” in this poem are the lines which make up letters and words. They do not designate lines of words, lines of poetry, lines of anything except lines! This could actually be titled “Lines” because it is really an ode to lines and what can be created by using them.

Check out the "Total" rewrite utilizing some of your suggestions. Hope you like it.

Lots of Thanks and

Larry

[Mary Boren]

Ah, yes, the longest poem. The Lost Episode. The Lost Museeker. I remember loving what you wrote, Larry. This must be your trademark theme.

As for the revision ... hmmm, seems like a lot of explaining about how your readers missed the mark. You don't have to justify anything, y'know. Either it comes across as intended or it doesn't. It still doesn't, for me. But that's okay.

Mary