Poetry Exercise #1 (updated Jan 4), Join In! Options

[Cleo_Serapis]

Hi all!  

Let's start our first interactive class with an abbreviated definition of poetry characteristics:

Poetry communicates and conveys feelings in a concentrated form. It uses language to create sound effects and word pictures, to set up associations in the reader’s mind, and to make striking comparisons through figures of speech.

Jox's take: Poetry conveys emotions and ideas in a concentrated form. It employs language creatively, both as imagery and for its tonal qualities. It is the purest form of writing.


In our first class, we will read a few lines from a famous poem.

The exercise is twofold:

• First, write down your first image and emotional reaction.
• Second, write a few lines with your own feeling and figure of speech to match the lines of the famous poem.

From the works of Alice Meynell, "Builders of Ruins", first stanza:

We build with strength and deep tower wall
that shall be shattered thus and thus.
And fair and great are court and hall,
but how fair--this is not for us,
who know the lack that lurks in all.

To view entire poem, click here.

Things to keep in mind:

• Is there a set metered pattern (of stressed and unstressed syllables)?
• Is there a set rhyming pattern (repetition of similar sounds)?
• Is there a set rhythmic pattern (the sense of movement attributable to the pattern of stressed and unstressed syllables)?

Let's start now. Please ADD REPLY to this tile.
GOOD LUCK!

~Cleo  

[Guest_Jox_*]

Hi Cleo,

Good luck with this new idea.

We build with strength and deep tower wall
That shall be shattered thus and thus.
And fair and great are court and hall,
But how fair--this is not for us,
Who know the lack that lurks in all.

First, write down your first image and emotional reaction.

In my ignorance, I had never heard of this poem nor, indeed, the poetess. So I am better educated already!

Image One - Literal and not so. ..

Literal - a thick-walled strong, baronial castle where good living combine with the ever-present danger of attack and siege. I have been to many of these castles - some in tact and many ruins. This verse makes me think of the fine line betwixt great riches and great dangers. One month the Lord, his family and entourage are feasting; the next they are being besieged by the King's men; they then are starving. There are many such castles in Wales which are ruined after their inhabitants tried to stop the English / Anglo-Saxons from invading. A testament to bravery and man's ultimate desire for freedom.

Metaphorical - The same fine line between the good life and the bad death is applicable in a multitude of situations. We all sit under Damocles’ sword in one way or another and this verse illustrates that. Nuclear war, famine, disease, road accidents, one could continue ad mortem! (Well, one could try!)

Image Two - Literal and not so...

Literal - The displaced, the disadvantaged, the dispossessed and the disenfranchised people, peering in at the haves and their rulers. This could have been written by Karl Marx; for it certainly has a strong Marxist message.

Metaphorical - The understanding that physical wealth is but one facet of man and that, despite that, he may be lacking in very many other human forms of wealth. The knowledge that we are all inadequate in so many ways. The understanding that, despite the great power and wealth that these men command they are, in some ways, just as frail and vulnerable as any human being.  The walls that shatter might simply be someone piercing that vulnerability... those people appear strong and resolute - but they are never invulnerable.

Please forgive me if I leave the poem there. I shall watch this thread with interest and may comment but personally I wouldn’t wish to match that verse (or anyone’s). Thanks for the opportunity to reflect on this though. I thought the message excellent although I did not actually care for the verse itself.

James.

PS I agree with your definition of poetry - or whose ever it is - but to it I would add "ideas"... thus my own take on it would be something like...

Poetry conveys emotions and ideas in a concentrated form. It employs language creatively, both as imagery and for its tonal qualities. It is the purest form of writing.

[Cleo_Serapis]

What an excellent commentary James! This is wonderful. Good to get the mind thinking of how just a few words CAN indeed paint a thousand pictures (kind of like my new phrase, "A word is worth a thousand pictures."

YOu may not wish to write a follow on line or two, HOWEVER, can you spot a meter, rhyme and/or rhythm here?

Cheers!
~Cleo

[Guest_Jox_*]

Cleo...

Thank you very much. Think you ought to have left it there! Your new phrase whimiscal but it is the way in which the words are used that matters; not the words per se. Anyway...

Well you did ask but I think you asked the wrong person.

Well, I seldom read as most people and usually can never identify such things... I have no sense of rhythm myself - can’t even spot it in music I’m afraid. Nevertheless, I “think” this is what she meant. But, as always, such analysis simply turns me off - I always find the power of words far more interesting than the pattern. I do love much poetry but I always identify the ideas within first and hate it when words are changed simply to fit a pattern. My least favourite musical instruments: piano and drums. My favourites? The human voice (especially Plainsong) and the Lute. As I say, no sense of rhythm! But all that’s why I’m (if anything) a story teller, rather than a poet.

Meter -  Something like...

We BUILD with STRENGTH and DEEP tower WALL
That SHALL be SHATTered  thus and THUS.
And FAIR and GREAT are COURT and HAll,
But HOW fair--THIS is NOT for US,
Who KNOW the LACK that LURKS in All.

Rhythm -

La/de/la/de/la/de etc.

Rhyme -  

Wall / Hall / All
Thus / Us
“Fair” repeated on consecutive lines which serves to detract from the overall effect.
“Thus” repeated two words apart which helps to ruin the verse for me.
There may be more.

You see, this actually undermines the poem for me - I quite enjoyed the ideas at first - but when I analyse it (regardless of if I’m right or wrong) I find myself really disliking it. Those ideas could have been expressed far better.

However, in fairness, to the poetess, I have not seen the rest yet. Moreover, I would think this is from a different era - Victorian? (I have never read a Victorian novel I like, though poetry ought to have more chance of appealing to me).

Tatty-Bye!

James.

[Guest_Don_*]

Hi all!
Let's start our first interactive class with an abbreviated definition of poetry characteristics:

Poetry communicates and conveys feelings in a concentrated form. It uses language to create sound effects and word pictures, to set up associations in the reader’s mind, and to make striking comparisons through figures of speech.
-----------------------------------------------------------------

In our first class, we will read a few lines from a famous poem.

The exercise is twofold:
[*]First, write down your first image and emotional reaction.
[*]Second, write a few lines with your own feeling and figure of speech to match the lines of the famous poem.

From the works of Alice Meynell, "Builders of Ruins", first stanza:

SUPPLIED VERSE WITH MEANING LINE BY LINE:
We build with strength and deep tower wall
Humanity continues building upon shoulders of past achievments.
That shall be shattered thus and thus.
Nothing last forever.
And fair and great are court and hall,
Wonderful achievements are accomplished.
But how fair--this is not for us,
Their true value we cannot judge.
Who know the lack that lurks in all.
We know ourselves and all we do imperfect.

END RHYME SCHEME: a,b,a,b,a
NO INTERNAL RHYMES except lack/lurk may be half rhyme.
We build with strength and deep tower  wall
That shall be shattered thus and  thus.
And fair and great are court and  hall,
But how fair--this is not for  us,
Who know the lack that lurks in  all.

ALLITERATION
strength/shall/shattered
hall/how
lack/lurk

LINE METER
Each line is perfect iambic tetrameter = four-feet of da DUM (eight-syllables)
except first line, which is nine-syllables of
we build with strength and deep tower wall
which I shall scan as
iambic / iambic / iambic / amphimacer

STANZA METER:  Due to high percentage of iambic the verse is considered iambic.

CREATING VERSE TO MATCH: Ignored for lack of ambition.


Things to keep in mind:

Is there a set metered pattern (of stressed and unstressed syllables)?
Is there a set rhyming pattern (repetition of similar sounds)?
Is there a set rhythmic pattern (the sense of movement attributable to the pattern of stressed and unstressed syllables)?

All questions have been answered affirmative in detail above.

Hi Cleo,

I am   STUNNED   you chose a stanza with each line with a capital!!!!!!

Don

[Guest_Don_*]

Hey Cleo,

How about

A word is packed with pixels?


Who finished off the eggnog???

Don

[JustDaniel]

Well...

after reading all the great and insightful stuff, the community dunce is still sitting here wondering what in hell the first line means!

feeling sLightly... no, devastatingly now... STUPID,


Daniel  

P.S.  Since I couldn't get the image...

here's my emotional reaction:

For the Birds

I am
a dodo, albatross
a fruit bat, gooney bird
awry ringtoss

an eagle’s sore
a will-o-the-wimp
a cock-a-doodle-dew
a dolt, a simp

I peck at caviar
with wrinkled beak…
and ruffle feathers
when I speak

so here I grope –
and more than once…
each time I try
I feel the dunce.

© Daniel J Ricketts 31 Dec 2003

[Guest_Jox_*]

Hi Daniel,

I've read many of your works; you're certainly no dunce nor, in any way, stupid. Actually, I am delighted that it is no longer just me saying "I don't understand" to poetry postings. I wish more of my students had the strength of character to say they didn't understand rather than pretend they did and make a mess later. Stupidity lies in not speaking up. Moreover, one often finds that one is not alone and others are just afraid to say anything.

Anyway, I can only offer my view of what that first line means - others may disagree...

We build with strength

1 We need to employ our own strength (physical and psychological) to build
2 We need to make the construction itself strong.

and deep

1. Similar to above but a depth of stamina, purpose is employed
2. Similar to above but as well as strong the construction must be deep

tower wall

A tower is an edifice; a phallic symbol of virility; a place of superiority over all that one surveys; an isolation ("ivory towers" for example); a place of warning to others and of others approaching. It is the wall (singular so presumable circular) that we have been building with strong, deep foundations.

Pink Floyd released a concept album in the early 1980s The Wall in which someone built a wall around himself (and it was built from the outside too). For example, teachers who mocked his attempts at life were  "just another brick in the wall". Simultaneously protecting someone from the outside world, yet entombing them. Pink Floyd's work was far superior in my opinion to this verse... but again I don't know the whole poem.

That line, again...

We build with strength and deep tower wall

There is something I don't understand either. Why the poet has chosen to be ungrammatical. I cannot see what would have been wrong with...

We build with strength and depth tower wall

Sounds far better, too. Oh well, maybe you or someone else would explain to me why the bad grammar. I don't think it's a technique but, in any case, not meter, nor rhyme nor rhythm would be an excuse in my view. Gosh, I sound pompous - I'm sure I write far, far worse. But then, again, this is a learning exercise so we must be super-critical.

Every time I've taught poetry in class I have invited students to be super-critical. They were welcome to say it was a load of rubbish - providing that they offered an intelligent justification. I taught it to 11 to 14 year olds for the best part of fifteen years (1983-1998) during English lessons. I have to say that I'm REALLY REALLY glad I never offered any of my works up to any classes for crit!

By the way, what's a "ringtoss"... a fiancee who calls-off the forthcoming marriage, maybe? Actually I have no idea, pray do tell, please.

Hope all this makes sense. James.

[Cleo_Serapis]

Cleo...

Well, I seldom read as most people and usually can never identify such things... I have no sense of rhythm myself - can’t even spot it in music I’m afraid. Nevertheless, I “think” this is what she meant. I always find the power of words far more interesting than the pattern. As I say, no sense of rhythm! But all that’s why I’m (if anything) a story teller, rather than a poet.

However, in fairness, to the poetess, I have not seen the rest yet. Moreover, I would think this is from a different era - Victorian? (I have never read a Victorian novel I like, though poetry ought to have more chance of appealing to me).

Tatty-Bye!

James.

Meter -  Something like...

We BUILD with STRENGTH and DEEP tower WALL
That SHALL be SHATTered  thus and THUS.
And FAIR and GREAT are COURT and HAll,
But HOW fair--THIS is NOT for US,
Who KNOW the LACK that LURKS in All.

Hi James! OK - you've almost got it here with the meter, which in this case is tetrameter, meaning four feet per line (grouping of syllables). The poetic feet in this case can be called iambic, (iamb) the most common foot. Iamb is a metrical foot consisting of an unstressed syllable followed by a stressed syllable or a short syllable followed by a long syllable, as in delay.  

I can only guess that in L1, Mrs. Meynell was counting 'tower' as one syllable, but clearly, the pattern indicates it as two:
We BUILD with STRENGTH and DEEP towER wall

Good job!  :detective:

Rhythm -

La/de/la/de/la/de etc.

Or as some pros word it: da DUM da DUM da DUM da DUM  :sings:

Rhyme -  

Wall / Hall / All
Thus / Us
“Fair” repeated on consecutive lines which serves to detract from the overall effect.
“Thus” repeated two words apart which helps to ruin the verse for me.
There may be more.

Yes - this poem has what is called 'End-rhyme' where the last syllable of a word in two or more verses ends with assonance (identical vowel sounds) as with WALL, HALL, ALL (the a) and then US, THUS (the B). So we can say that the rhyming pattern (scheme) is ababa.

Cheers!
~Cleo  :cheer:

[Cleo_Serapis]

[quote=Don,Dec. 30 2003, 11:52]Hi Cleo,

I am   STUNNED   you chose a stanza with each line with a capital!!!!!!

Don

Don! Ooops! I must go back and FIX that! OUCHIE![/quote]
Hi Don!

You get a gold star for the day!  :wizard:

[quote]We build with strength and deep tower wall
Humanity continues building upon shoulders of past achievments.
That shall be shattered thus and thus.
Nothing last forever.
And fair and great are court and hall,
Wonderful achievements are accomplished.
But how fair--this is not for us,
Their true value we cannot judge.
Who know the lack that lurks in all.
We know ourselves and all we do imperfect.[/quote]

I got a very similar 'message' as well from reading the first line. I also interpret this first stanza to mean that mother and father create offspring who may not take the same paths in life that the previous generations did. The lines:
And fair and great are court and hall,
But how fair--this is not for us,
I take to mean that offspring should not be judged by the deeds of the parents.

[quote]END RHYME SCHEME: a,b,a,b,a
NO INTERNAL RHYMES except lack/lurk may be half rhyme.
We build with strength and deep tower  wall
That shall be shattered thus and  thus.
And fair and great are court and  hall,
But how fair--this is not for  us,
Who know the lack that lurks in  all.
Excellent Don!  :cheer:

[quote]ALLITERATION
strength/shall/shattered
hall/how
lack/lurk[/quote]
How I love adding alliteration (repetition of sound clusters of two or more words) to my own pieces! Well spotted!

[quote]LINE METER: Each line is perfect iambic tetrameter = four-feet of da DUM (eight-syllables) except first line, which is nine-syllables of
we build with strength and deep tower wall
which I shall scan as iambic / iambic / iambic / amphimacer

STANZA METER:  Due to high percentage of iambic the verse is considered iambic.[/quote]
Thanks Don! I learned a new word today, "amphimacer"! TY!

[quote]CREATING VERSE TO MATCH: Ignored for lack of ambition.[/quote]

Ohhhh! Too bad!  :footballhelmet:

Thanks for your wonderful observations non-the-less!  :detective:  :pharoah2

[Cleo_Serapis]

Hey Cleo,

How about

A word is packed with pixels?

Who finished off the eggnog???

Don

Don!

I just gotta use this emoticon (No one's used it yet)! :offtopic:

Eggnog? I never had any eggnog....Hmmmm- but I WILL be having some Moet tonight! WAHOOOOO!

H A P P Y N E W Y E A R!

Good idea!  :lovie:  :dance:

[Cleo_Serapis]

Well...after reading all the great and insightful stuff, the community dunce is still sitting here wondering what in hell the first line means!

feeling sLightly... no, devastatingly now... STUPID,

Daniel  

P.S.  Since I couldn't get the image...

here's my emotional reaction:

For the Birds

I am
a dodo, albatross
a fruit bat, gooney bird
awry ringtoss

an eagle’s sore
a will-o-the-wimp
a cock-a-doodle-dew
a dolt, a simp

I peck at caviar
with wrinkled beak…
and ruffle feathers
when I speak

so here I grope –
and more than once…
each time I try
I feel the dunce.

© Daniel J Ricketts 31 Dec 2003

Daniel! You are NOT a  :dunce: ! A maybe, but no  :medusa: .

So there!

This is one of those things I like about interpretation, ask any number of people to respond with what they think this first lines means, and I'm SURE you'll get any number of different answers.

We build with strength and deep tower wall

When I read it, I think of a proud people working together to build a strong foundation that is not easily scaled.

Now, I see that James has also added a great response and so has Don. There are no wrong answers, isn't this  :cool: *cool*?


I love this!
I peck at caviar
with wrinkled beak…
and ruffle feathers
when I speak

Thanks for your response!  :cheer:
~Cleo  :pharoah2

[Guest_Don_*]

A glorious goodbye to December.

Hi Lori,

Having maternal instinct it is fitting you would also see parent/child relationship.

As you see I generalized and encompassed all of humanity.
Tower--at least in the western sphere of castle terminology-- is the "keep" and strongest and safest defense from aggressive harm.  If all other defenses fail the defenders go into the stocked, fortified keep.  It is the core of our total defense.  General humanity has opted toward ultimate safety of human cultures.  Our defenses are far from perfect and each generation contributes to promoting survival of our species.

A worn coin dropped into the slot machine of discussion.

Don

[Guest_Don_*]

Well...

after reading all the great and insightful stuff, the community dunce is still sitting here wondering what in hell the first line means!

feeling sLightly... no, devastatingly now... STUPID,


Daniel  

P.S.  Since I couldn't get the image...

here's my emotional reaction:

For the Birds

I am
a dodo, albatross
a fruit bat, gooney bird
awry ringtoss

an eagle’s sore
a will-o-the-wimp
a cock-a-doodle-dew
a dolt, a simp

I peck at caviar
with wrinkled beak…
and ruffle feathers
when I speak

so here I grope –
and more than once…
each time I try
I feel the dunce.

© Daniel J Ricketts 31 Dec 2003

Hi Daniel,

I feel honored to have you pecking my fish eggs anytime.

As a teacher of poetry you are an asset of high magnitude.

Personally I am discouraged that only a few grasp that main trope(s) are relatively unimportant to art of poetry.  Does it matter the meaning is missed?  Not really.  Is the practice lesson verse poetic? It certainly is because it sings even if listener hears gibberish.

All too often the first question anyone asks is, "What does it mean?"
As a teacher of poetry, you, of all people, should know meaning is between poet and reader.  Outside of that the meaning(s) are extremely moot.

Enjoyed your poem bashing yourself. but not the subject being bashed.

Up, up and away
as annual last day
is sealed this dusk.

Dawn of a new year
for everyone's cheer.

Don

[Cleo_Serapis]

Did Don mention 'slot machine'? Ohh la la!

I'll be a droppin many a coin (worn or otherwise) into Las Vegas (lost wages) ones in another 40 days, but who's counting?

[JustDaniel]

Thank you all for your kind words and encouragement... and Don!  No one has ever accused me of being a teacher of poetry before. Far be it from me!

But I humbly bow in appreciation!

I stare down deep at fallen tower wall
that now lies shattered, shat on ~ gone ~
where fair and great once courted all –
but not the peon. Now it’s peed upon
(by those who dared to spill their guts withal.)  

Lightly, Daniel  

[Guest_Jox_*]

Hi Don,

I've been reading your reply to Daniel - and I don't think I really understand it.

Personally I am discouraged that only a few grasp that main trope(s) are relatively unimportant to art of poetry.  Does it matter the meaning is missed?  Not really.  Is the practice lesson verse poetic? It certainly is because it sings even if listener hears gibberish.

All too often the first question anyone asks is, "What does it mean?"
As a teacher of poetry, you, of all people, should know meaning is between poet and reader.  Outside of that the meaning(s) are extremely moot.

Surely, a trope is figurative speech (e.g. a simile) and is not figurate language rather important to much poetry? Is not "the meaning" a separate issue?

Apropos "the meaning":

I agree entirely that the meaning is established betwixt writer and reader - both have their part to play. Therefore, ceteris paribus, possible interpretations of a poem are infinite. Writing is a form of communication so, for me, establishing the meaning of any writing is absolutely essential. I fully accept that poetry (more than any other form of the written word) may have strong aesthetic values which are there to be appreciated. This is akin to enjoying the beauty of music without understanding what it is about in any way - and similar for a painting. Nevertheless, words do have specific meanings which distinguishes them from musical notes or globules of paint. I think that ignoring those meanings misses the main point of writing. There is still the aesthetic aspects to enjoy - a swirling sound for water, maybe or alliteration and so on - but there are just poetry’s riches; not its raison d’etre.

Of course, since I did not really understand your comments I may have misinterpreted what you said - sorry if that be so. Nevertheless, it is an interesting debate.

James.

[Guest_Don_*]

Hi Don,

I've been reading your reply to Daniel - and I don't think I really understand it.

Personally I am discouraged that only a few grasp that main trope(s) are relatively unimportant to art of poetry.  Does it matter the meaning is missed?  Not really.  Is the practice lesson verse poetic? It certainly is because it sings even if listener hears gibberish.

All too often the first question anyone asks is, "What does it mean?"
As a teacher of poetry, you, of all people, should know meaning is between poet and reader.  Outside of that the meaning(s) are extremely moot.

Surely, a trope is figurative speech (e.g. a simile) and is not figurate language rather important to much poetry? Is not "the meaning" a separate issue?

Apropos "the meaning":

I agree entirely that the meaning is established betwixt writer and reader - both have their part to play. Therefore, ceteris paribus, possible interpretations of a poem are infinite. Writing is a form of communication so, for me, establishing the meaning of any writing is absolutely essential. I fully accept that poetry (more than any other form of the written word) may have strong aesthetic values which are there to be appreciated. This is akin to enjoying the beauty of music without understanding what it is about in any way - and similar for a painting. Nevertheless, words do have specific meanings which distinguishes them from musical notes or globules of paint. I think that ignoring those meanings misses the main point of writing. There is still the aesthetic aspects to enjoy - a swirling sound for water, maybe or alliteration and so on - but there are just poetry’s riches; not its raison d’etre.

Of course, since I did not really understand your comments I may have misinterpreted what you said - sorry if that be so. Nevertheless, it is an interesting debate.

James.

Hi Jox,

Perhaps I have mistakenly entered a sacred temple?  Let me step from a mist into clearer light for you to discern my shape.

I admit that "trope" is best applied strictly to figures of speech.  Let me enter the sunshine and say subject, theme or meaning instead of misleading, "trope."

Where I come from is an English professor teaching poetry repeatedly called general meaning a trope.  He also, to which I finally match his stride, insisted that the thematic meaning(s) were of lesser importance than other poetic devices.  In fact he used the obvious meanings strictly for sub-genre classification.  He may have had two ulterior motives.  First motive may have been to break students away from concentrating on meaning and pay attention to his instruction of multiple devices of the art.  
Second motive may have been related to grading critereon.
 
We probably agree that more people dance to music in relative ignorance of what it is all about.  So our impasse is that I, more than majority, pay far more attention to arrangements and effects of melodic mix than name of tune.

For me poetry is the beautiful building materials of language rather than overt message conveyed.
A speaker can transcend all subject matter via mastery of delivery. I am enthralled by whatever the beautiful lady chooses to say...sing me lullabys.

Messmerize me with your nonsense, Dr. Suess, or you, Lewis Carrol.

Maps may be discarded in direct proportion to strolling familiar paths of poetry.  Subjects like paths are essential foundation, but not among most pleasing objects to absorb.

Concluding, I agree with you that trope and meaning do differ, despite my professor's usage; and I shall retreat into a haze mumbling,

"May your path always be in verdant valley."

Don

[JustDaniel]

surface meanings trope
this bumpkin would-be poet
unaware he’d trip

[Guest_Jox_*]

Hi Don,

Thank you for your reply.

Sacred temple? Maybe but not mine; I don't build them and try not to frequent them!

Thanks for your explanations - starting with "trope". Your Prof. sounds a character. Moreover, you are educated to a higher standard than I in English (I did not study it at Uni). He was right, at least in his perspectives - students do need encouraging to "see the light" and grading is always on the horizon so teachers do need techniques!

Your focus on the sound of poetry, rather than the message, is the opposite of mine but both are (like various poetical interpretations) valid. Indeed, I do often miss the various sounds so I very much appreciate them being indicated to me.

I have to admit to not having read Dr Seuss but Lewis Carroll is never nonsense. Well, not in my book - surrealism seems the only sense this World has sometimes. I certainly share your enjoyment of Carroll.

Paths / Foundations...

I take your point on that but I think you mistake paths for the destination. Paths may be prettier for the wayside flowers but the journey would be futile if it ended in nothing: a pretty futile journey. We can all dance along those paths to tunes appreciated but not understood.

However, language gives the poems different ways of exploration and, indeed, a more literal (!) meaning which - far from being a tedious skeleton to hang the attractive frame - is the heart of the poem. We’ll agree to disagree.

Sorry about the switch of metaphor - just exercising my stereophonic trope!

That verdant valley - think you must have seen a photo of where I live. Verdant because it is sopping wet with all the rain we’ve had. Verdant and muddy! Thanks for those good wishes and I hope that your valley is no less verdant but is, also, sunny!

Daniel - amusing and yet serious haiku... well done but you must stop decrying your very substantial poetical abilities. Than again, the haiku does that for you, methinks!

OK, I’m off to paint the roses red.

Toodle Pip!
James.

[JustDaniel]

dry seriousness

clear the evidence;
wipe away demeaning tears
though you can’t decry

© MLee Dickens'son 03 Jan 2003

[Athena]

If I had more wit
I'd do more than just sit
saying, ditto, ditto, dit

to all our Daniel
hath
proclaimed!

I comprehend it not
though my brain's not rot
the meaning of this plot

escapes my aim!


Sheeeeeeeesssshhhhh ....  

Happy New Year, All,  

Athena/Dolly    

[Guest_Jox_*]

Hello Dolly

(Been wanting to say that all year!)

Happy Gnu/2004/2u2.

I’m sure you’re not alone and very grateful that you “asked” for clarification.

So, for you, Daniel and everybody...

Lori started this exercise - which is still running so why don’t others take-up the cudgels?

I was first to respond with an interpretation of the poem. Lori then asked me about technical matters - rhyme etc and I replied to that, too. I did not offer my version since I don’t like re-joining poems (am sometimes tempted by stories) and did not like the verse per se.

Don then joined the thread / tile.

He offered a erudite take on the technicalities of the poem. (Far beyond my capabilities or interests).

Daniel joined the tile asking what the first verse meant.

I responded with my interpretation.

The Lori replied to Don and myself.

Next, Lori helped Daniel in his quest to understand that first verse.

Then a little discussion and banter ensued.

Page 2...

I questioned Don on the meaning of his previous submission - especially over the word “trope” and the different emphasis which he and I, apparently, placed upon the message of a poem and the way in which that message was presented.

That debate continued with...

Daniel, now yourself, saying you didn’t understand it.

Now, if anyone would like any of the debate twixt Don and myself explained I’m sure either / both he or/and I would be delighted to explain further.

In the meantime... as I said before... any more responses to Cleo’s original educational exercise (or/and please join in the sub-debate about poetry).

Hope this helps both of you and all.

James.

[Athena]

Hey James,

Thank you so much for your kind and patient explanations.  However, it is Lori's original request that's what neither Daniel nor I understood, at least that's what I didn't "get".    

I read the thread, a lot of which went over my poetic ken, and I felt none the wiser about the initial challenge/exercise when I finished.  Not having the ability to detail a poem as you fellows have, I guess I was correct to stay out of the whole thing.  

So, thanks again, and you may sing to me ANYtime!  I love it!    

Dolly    

[Guest_Jox_*]

Thanks Dolly...

But you really DO NOT want to hear my singing; please be assured!

I understand what you are saying - but I've seen you crit people's works - that's all this exercise is; a targeted crit. Lori and I, for example, drew totally different meanings from the verse. What did it mean to you? Tempted to have a go?

James.

[JustDaniel]

Excellent summary, James...

except for glossing over my three emotional responses...

Care to have a go at interpreting THEM?

[ Part of the assignment, as I interpreted it, was to write emotional responses.  Did I take too much latitude in that?

Lightly, Daniel  :sun:

[Cleo_Serapis]

Thank you all for your kind words and encouragement... and Don!  No one has ever accused me of being a teacher of poetry before. Far be it from me!

But I humbly bow in appreciation!

I stare down deep at fallen tower wall
that now lies shattered, shat on ~ gone ~
where fair and great once courted all –
but not the peon. Now it’s peed upon
(by those who dared to spill their guts withal.)  

Lightly, Daniel  

Hi Daniel!

Thanks for popping back in here!  :dance:

I stare down deep at fallen tower wall
that now lies shattered, shat on ~ gone ~
where fair and great once courted all –
but not the peon. Now it’s peed upon
(by those who dared to spill their guts withal.)  

A wonderful reply! Kudos to you for your clever response!  :cheer:
How do I interpret it (humor aside)?

I see there was a battle or perhaps a great storm that had come and toppled the tower wall. Your visual imagery are superb in what I see!  :pharoah2 In these first two lines, you've given the reader a powerful image, and in my analysis - I see three (off the bat) meanings to the opening lines.
[*]A great battle was fought and the tower collapsed.
[*]A great storm had come and now all is just ruins
[*]You can get religious too if you like as a metaphor with: the hand of God had come and smote the wall.

The rest of the stanza:
Now it's peed upon  
Perhaps a metaphor for the ruins or the storming rains?
and your most powerful last line:
(by those who dared to spill their guts withal.)
Leading me, the reader, back to the 'battle' image and warriors who fought and lost with their blood spilled upon the ruins?

I must say I think this deserves more limelight!
Well done!

Hugarooos!
~Cleo  :pharoah:

[Cleo_Serapis]

All too often the first question anyone asks is, "What does it mean?"
As a teacher of poetry, you, of all people, should know meaning is between poet and reader.  Outside of that the meaning(s) are extremely moot.

Enjoyed your poem bashing yourself. but not the subject being bashed.

Up, up and away
as annual last day
is sealed this dusk.

Dawn of a new year
for everyone's cheer.

Don

Hi Don! :)

Wow- you MUST continue these educational replies!  :wizard:

Does it matter the meaning is missed?  Not really.  Is the practice lesson verse poetic? It certainly is because it sings even if listener hears gibberish.

Absolutely! We're not always going to read a poem and say, "I agree with the message!", or "Wow - doesn't that one sing?". It is my hope, that when we read and interact here in the exercises and also in our forums here and at other boards, that we will at least understand the techniques that the writer employs and perhaps learn something as well in the interaction.


Thanks for your participation!  :sings:

Hugaroooos!
~Cleo  :pharoah:

[Cleo_Serapis]

To continue with this exercise, I am going to paste in three more stanzas, two from the middle of the poem and then the ending stanza, along with the opening.*Note:The selected stanzas are NOT in perfect sequence.

My questions this time:
[*]Has your interpretation CHANGED at all now that you have read more of this piece?
[*]What significance (if any) do you find in the title?

Please state why if either case.

Cheers!
~Cleo  

Builders of Ruins by Alice Meynell

We build with strength and deep tower wall
that shall be shattered thus and thus.
And fair and great are court and hall,
but how fair--this is not for us,
who know the lack that lurks in all.

The stars that 'twixt the rise and fall,
like relic-seers, shall one by one
stand musing o'er our empty hall;
and setting moons shall brood upon
the frescoes of our inward wall.

And where they wrought, these lives of ours,
so many-worded, many-souled,
a north-west wind will take the towers,
and dark with color, sunny and cold,
will range alone among the flowers.

And make our pause and silence brim
with the shrill children's play, and sweets
of those pathetic flowers and dim,
of those eternal flowers my Keats,
dying, felt growing over him!

[Guest_Don_*]

Excellent summary, James...

except for glossing over my three emotional responses...

Care to have a go at interpreting THEM?

[ Part of the assignment, as I interpreted it, was to write emotional responses.  Did I take too much latitude in that?

Lightly, Daniel  

Hi Just Daniel,

I agree, James' summary is well done and suggestion to return to original lesson wise.  

On my behalf, I have noticed your poetic inserts at intersections and wondered as they puzzled me.  As you say, they are emotional responses to Lori's original lesson from "Builders of Ruins" and following comments, I shall dip my line into those buckets as a Simple Simon.

Don

[Guest_Jox_*]

Daniel,

Hi; I don't think that I glossed-over you emotional responses did I? I simply omitted them altogether - sorry! I will try to go through them later if I may.

Cleo...

Absolutely! We're not always going to read a poem and say, "I agree with the message!", or "Wow - doesn't that one sing?". It is my hope, that when we read and interact here in the exercises and also in our forums here and at other boards, that we will at least understand the techniques that the writer employs and perhaps learn something as well in the interaction.

Your aspirations are nobel. However, agreeing with the message is not the point; understanding a message is. Techniques are merely there to serve the overall purpose. Now, the purpose might include tonal lyricism but language, ultimatly, is a communicator. It is there to communicate a message - which may be emotional or logical or both - but message there usually is.

So I hope that, by understanding technique, writers will be able to employ some themselves to convey our messages better. Moreover, such understanding will enable us to better see the message in works which read. But I am anxious that we should not see techniques as the raison d'etre of poems. That would be like admiring a railway track, rather than appreciating that it is importsnt in conveying one to one's destination.

Maybe we're saying similar things but focusing upon different areas?

Cheerio for now and well done for starting this again.

[Guest_Jox_*]

Builders of Ruins by Alice Meynell >> The title is the correct answer - “42” was a mis-calculation.

We build with strength and deep tower wall
that shall be shattered thus and thus.
And fair and great are court and hall,
but how fair--this is not for us, >> Why the double-dash?
who know the lack that lurks in all.

The stars that 'twixt the rise and fall, >> Hate “twixt” - the word is “betwixt” Also, stars don’t muse - this is an excellent example of what (in literature) is called “pathetic fallacy”.
like relic-seers, shall one by one
stand musing o'er our empty hall; >> Hate “o’er” - the word is “over”
and setting moons shall brood upon >> Ah! Brooding moons (plural?) is an even better eg of “pathetic fallacy”!
the frescoes of our inward wall.

And where they wrought, these lives of ours,
so many-worded, many-souled,
a north-west wind will take the towers,
and dark with color, sunny and cold,
will range alone among the flowers. >> There is a Chinese saying that, just as one gets one’s garden in good order, so winds blow across it to destory it again. Back to that title!

And make our pause and silence brim
with the shrill children's play, and sweets
of those pathetic flowers and dim,
of those eternal flowers my Keats,  >> One of my least favourite poets - despite his spending time here, in my own city (Winchester). Wilfred Owen aped Keats in his early poems - ugh! It was only war which forged him into the poet he became.
dying, felt growing over him!

Yup, this is definitely “42” writ somewhat differently to Douglas Adams. Overall I “like” that message but don’t care for its expression at all. Mind you, I suspect this is Victorian. That period and I never get on - not literature, music, architecture, the British Empire or anything else really. Still, she was published and people must like it so good luck to her (though I suspect I’m too late!)

My interpretation changed? No, not at all - extremely surprised how close I was then to now - spot-on, actually. Very odd.

[Guest_Don_*]

All too often the first question anyone asks is, "What does it mean?"
As a teacher of poetry, you, of all people, should know meaning is between poet and reader.  Outside of that the meaning(s) are extremely moot.

Enjoyed your poem bashing yourself. but not the subject being bashed.

Up, up and away
as annual last day
is sealed this dusk.

Dawn of a new year
for everyone's cheer.

Don

[b]Hi Don! :)

Wow- you MUST continue these educational replies!  

Does it matter the meaning is missed?  Not really.  Is the practice lesson verse poetic? It certainly is because it sings even if listener hears gibberish.

Absolutely! We're not always going to read a poem and say, "I agree with the message!", or "Wow - doesn't that one sing?". It is my hope, that when we read and interact here in the exercises and also in our forums here and at other boards, that we will at least understand the techniques that the writer employs and perhaps learn something as well in the interaction.


Thanks for your participation!  

Hugaroooos!
~Cleo  

Hi Cleo,

I am honestly blushing.. ...if such exists.
As has been said, how can a blush, which requires foreknowledge, show innocence?  

My meager poetic knowledge is a mental chapbook filled with notes taken at street level.  Sometime less than three years ago, I decided to try poetry from almost total ignorance.  Since, it has become a serious hobby.  I enjoy sharing the little gleaned from others openly sharing.

Assuredly, I am a rotten teacher; and sincerely hope my prattle is not seen as snobbish priesthood. The reaped crop of speaking, which proves beyond doubt the fool within, is those wishing not to learn are looking for scapegoats.

My sincerest thanks to your (& gang) success with Mosaicmusings LLC which provides an excellent forum for advancement of all writing--especially poetic arts for my selfish goals.  

We all probably have seen our share of raw beginning poets.  Ugh! I review my first verses to also be UGH!  Although, the members at this site, I've encountered, are well beyond UGH stage, surely some are among us whom welcome guidance into the manifold treasures of poetic practices.

My assumption is all members and those coming desire to share for growth at personal pace and satisfaction.

Thank you for encouraging me to continue proving myself the fool by expounding esetoric prattle.

Don

[Cleo_Serapis]

It is my honor and pleasure Don! :)

[Guest_Don_*]

To continue with this exercise, I am going to paste in three more stanzas, two from the middle of the poem and then the ending stanza, along with the opening.*Note:The selected stanzas are NOT in perfect sequence.

My questions this time:
[*]Has your interpretation CHANGED at all now that you have read more of this piece?
[*]What significance (if any) do you find in the title?

Please state why if either case.

Cheers!
~Cleo  

Builders of Ruins by Alice Meynell

We build with strength and deep tower wall
that shall be shattered thus and thus.
And fair and great are court and hall,
but how fair--this is not for us,
who know the lack that lurks in all.

The stars that 'twixt the rise and fall,
like relic-seers, shall one by one
stand musing o'er our empty hall;
and setting moons shall brood upon
the frescoes of our inward wall.

And where they wrought, these lives of ours,
so many-worded, many-souled,
a north-west wind will take the towers,
and dark with color, sunny and cold,
will range alone among the flowers.

And make our pause and silence brim
with the shrill children's play, and sweets
of those pathetic flowers and dim,
of those eternal flowers my Keats,
dying, felt growing over him!

Hi Cleo,

Yes, my original interpretation is altered, not replaced, by addition of Keats.

I took Alice Meynell's  verse as essentially "Ozymandias" by Percy Bysshe Shelley.  Rather than Shelley she paid homage to works of Keats.  Therefore, my interpretation as fate for everyone's efforts is also that of the giant, Keats, insightful romantic poetry.  I see an internal reference to love (Keats was known best for love poems) being the strongest of all as being the deep tower. This is a simile and metaphor between the greatest emotion, love, and strongest known physical structure.  Also architecture & poetry.

I still intend to look up full verse of "Builders of Ruins" and her comparable contemporaneousness with Shelley and Keats.

Don

[Guest_Don_*]

Hi Jox,

Enjoyed your comments upon additional verses supplied to exercise.

First time I've encountered "pathetic fallacy."  Is this a valid poetic device today?  Is it related to personification of objects, common to poetry?

You wrote, "My interpretation changed? No, not at all-extremely surprised how close I was then to now..."

    Your instincts are fine tuned to visualize the moonscape from a sample rock.  Congratulations!

Thanks for the insights.

Don

[Guest_Don_*]

If I had more wit
I'd do more than just sit
saying, ditto, ditto, dit

to all our Daniel
hath
proclaimed!

I comprehend it not
though my brain's not rot
the meaning of this plot

escapes my aim!


Sheeeeeeeesssshhhhh ....  

Happy New Year, All,  

Athena/Dolly    

Hi Athena/Minerva/Dolly,

Along with your multiple duties, you are goddess of knowledge and learning.
Your sweet verse combined with a later comment pronounced from Olympic seat tells me:
Refuse to play with hammer and nails
for poetry composed in garbled details
consists of escargo and puppy dog tails.

You took the time to say it well.

Don

[Guest_Don_*]

dry seriousness

clear the evidence;
wipe away demeaning tears
though you can’t decry

© Daniel J Ricketts 03 Jan 2003

Hi Daniel,

I rather read these three lines as

Cease crocodile tears
you really can't cry.


A simple yes or no response to veracity would be appreciated.


Don

[Guest_Don_*]

Dear Jox,

Who would have predicted how lively this practice lesson of Cleo’s would become?

Everyone has sacred temples in which they despise seeing muddy feet.

The dust has settled and the crows are plucking my corpse from battlefield.  My person  fell in touting the trip is worth more than destination—ultimately death.  The devil is in the details for some of us.  Treasure hunt adventure evaporates upon acquisition.  Proving the invention functions is more relishing than invention.  Excitement and challenge of climb exceeds planting the flag.  Smelling the flowers is the purpose of journey to dead destination.  Please Mr. Custer, I don’t want to go.

The skeleton message is as necessary to poetry as mind is to body because one cannot exist without the other.  Although infatuated with imagination and creativity, I am unlikely to throw baby of reason out with fantasy bathwater.

I would dearly like to learn Gaelic and Welsh, which I believe are potentially far more poetic than limitations of English language in which I am incarcerated by birth and environment…a propitious accident of geography nevertheless.  

You spoke of haiku to which I sneeze achoo.  A refined Dutchman introduced me to some of the finer points of haiku… later I saw a l..o..n..g list of proper criterion and decided English sonnets are for  Anglos and haikus for Asians.

“Will you will or will you won’t?  Won’t you dance with me?”
--Lewis Carroll.

   
Don

[Cleo_Serapis]

After reading the additional stanzas, my interpretation has changed to one of mankind just being a small particle in the grand scheme of the universe. I also see this as the author writing about herself, specifically, self-worth. As confidence builds (the wall) the hall (image of oneself) is great. As battles are fought (interactions with others), sometimes, the psyche is shaken (torn down).

Very clever!

[JustDaniel]

dry seriousness

clear the evidence;
wipe away demeaning tears
though you can’t decry

© Daniel J Ricketts 03 Jan 2003

Hi Daniel,

I rather read these three lines as

Cease crocodile tears
you really can't cry.

A simple yes or no response to veracity would be appreciated.

Don

I truly hope that I have not tried your patience, Don!  I greatly value your words and presence!

Your interpretation is quite interesting... and of course the reader is king, some would say!

I intended demeaning to be double-tongued, if you get de meaning...
and I'd hoped that decry would bear double duty as well.  You can't de-cry tears, ya know!

I was just emoting in my frustration with my own inability to grasp yours and Alan's and James' explanations and teachings readily!  Forgive me, please.

dim, but sharin' de Light, Daniel  :sun:

[Guest_Don_*]

dry seriousness

clear the evidence;
wipe away demeaning tears
though you can’t decry

© Daniel J Ricketts 03 Jan 2003

Hi Daniel,

I rather read these three lines as

Cease crocodile tears
you really can't cry.

A simple yes or no response to veracity would be appreciated.

Don

I truly hope that I have not tried your patience, Don!  I greatly value your words and presence!

Your interpretation is quite interesting... and of course the reader is king, some would say!

I intended demeaning to be double-tongued, if you get de meaning...
and I'd hoped that decry would bear double duty as well.  You can't de-cry tears, ya know!

I was just emoting in my frustration with my own inability to grasp yours and Alan's and James' explanations and teachings readily!  Forgive me, please.

dim, but sharin' de Light, Daniel  

Hi Dan,

I take no offense from your honest inputs.  I am flattered you appreciate my presence and I honestly reciprocate the view with you.  I look forward to learning a great deal from you, knowing how to enlightened students.

Not many have the fortitude to admit, "I don't get it."  Believe me, my turn will come again to request a dunce cap.  In fact your three lines derailed me.

The joke is on me for dependence upon dictionary definitions.  By accident dictionary definition for "decry" aligned its stars with your intended "de-cry" and I laugh for missing "de-meaning" entirely.  I must loosen upper collar button to let double-tongue tickle senses.

I was confused whether or not your three lines were directly connected to "Builders of Ruins."  You have clarified indirect link.  

Oh, the opportunity to discuss a work with an artist like yourself is an enlightening pleasure.

I looked into Alice Meynell (1792-1822) on Web.  She has a long list of verses to her name.  Builders of Ruins is twelve, five-line stanzas.  I was disappointed with rhyme scheme, but I could loosen first and second shirt buttons, no?

My poetry professor is on tape as my academic engineering education maximized ignoring classics.  Hence, I need help at the helm to catch up with fleet.

Don

[Cleo_Serapis]

Hehehh, any suggestions for the next poetry exercise? A particular author perhaps? I'm all ears and they're BIG too, lol!
Did anyone get the self-preservation interpretation????

~Cleo

[Guest_Don_*]

Hehehh, any suggestions for the enxt poetry exercise? A particular author perhaps? I'm all ears Iand they're BIG too, lol!
Did anyone get the self-preservation interpretation????

~Cleo

Hi Lori,

Self preservation?????

I read your last interpretation, and believe I grasp your explanation, which I found soundly plausable.

No suggestionsfor next project. Sorry, I am rather poor at picking something for which several would be interested.

Don

[Cleo_Serapis]

I looked into Alice Meynell (1792-1822) on Web.  She has a long list of verses to her name.  Builders of Ruins is twelve, five-line stanzas.  I was disappointed with rhyme scheme, but I could loosen first and second shirt buttons, no?

My poetry professor is on tape as my academic engineering education maximized ignoring classics.  Hence, I need help at the helm to catch up with fleet.

Don

Hi Don!

Yes - she also wrote several sonnets whcih I believe you've written a few as well?

Not a bad idea! Tape your classes!  :dance:

Cheers!
~Cleo

[JustDaniel]

A note to Don:

I'm heartened by your reply, my friend!  Thank you.

... and a bit of 'wisdom' in reply to your loosening your collar:


red light

beware unbuttoned…
especially loose callers
to waft on the fly

© MLee Dickens’son 06 Jan 2004

[Guest__*]

Dear Cleo

We build with strength and deep tower wall
that shall be shattered thus and thus.
And fair and great are court and hall,
but how fair--this is not for us,
who know the lack that lurks in all.

1st image is very pedestrian - of castle-building, no question of seeing any metaphors .....

1st reaction, and 2nd, and 3rd, on re-reading : What a load of tosh, not worth the effort of digging to try and understand what this MIGHT be about. The sort of poem that gave me the idea that poetry is a load of old rubbish, a complete turn-off !

Lines in the style ? I can but par-or-die :

BUILDERS OF SALES CAMPAIGNS

We write with words and deep emotion all
that shall be plastered here and there.
Quite fair and great our "bat and ball",
but, how eloquent we can not compare,
who see competing ads in ev'ry mall.

Is this sort of reply any use to you at all ?

Love
Alan

PS I'M BACK home this morning !

[Guest_Don_*]

I looked into Alice Meynell (1792-1822) on Web.  She has a long list of verses to her name.  Builders of Ruins is twelve, five-line stanzas.  I was disappointed with rhyme scheme, but I could loosen first and second shirt buttons, no?

My poetry professor is on tape as my academic engineering education maximized ignoring classics.  Hence, I need help at the helm to catch up with fleet.

Don

Hi Don!

Yes - she also wrote several sonnets whcih I believe you've written a few as well?

Not a bad idea! Tape your classes!  

Cheers!
~Cleo

Hi Lori,

The professor on tape to which I refered were purchased from The Teaching Company to absorb commuting to and fro between work and home.  Attempts to record in lecture halls, class rooms and chemistry labs were abject failures.

Yes, I have written a few sonnets, but have yet to practice to proficiency.
As practice consists of consuming others, I shall return to read sonnets of Alice Meynell.

I request your guiding help.  What poems would you suggest make reader SEE, HEAR, SMELL, TASTE or FEEL.  Strong imagery may suggest, but if I put a page of verse to tongue it transmits taste of pulp. Flavored ink perhaps?

Don

[Guest_Jox_*]

Alan,

My very dear fellow how absolutely spiffing to see you returned safely to the fold.

Secondly, my apologies for not being in this debate the last few days - as I have lots to respond to. My two excuses are (i) I've been busy; (ii) I've been busy on MM over at the short story educational bit - do have a go, all. (iii) MM has been "down" for much of the time I've been available. (iv) I can't count.

Fourthly, I hate you, AMD. You have really shown me up on here. Why did you have to return from living in an envelope? Look, why do you have to be so wonderfully accurate and forthright about that poem? Why can't you beat about the bush like any respectable Brit... like me, for goodness' sake! I spent ages carefully saying that it might be good and I just was not in-tune with Victoriana etc, when all the time I meant that I hated it!

I'm far too much of a coward - evidently! THANK YOU ALAN for showing that to everyone. But Alan says "The sort of poem that gave me the idea that poetry is a load of old rubbish, a complete turn-off !" and I think I'd just like to - sort of - agree(ish) with him; if that's ok? (If it's not this poem is probably the best ever written pre MM-members' attempts - that shouldn't offend too many people).

Actually, it is far from the worst I have read - I loathe Keats for example - though I suspect most would say he was a far better poet. Nevertheless, it's definitely one to be printed on those novelty boggy-rolls.

Alan, do you think I was too strident there?

James.

PS Welcome back Alan!

[Cleo_Serapis]

Nwext part of exercise -

Please re-write the last stanza. This can follow the meter in place, or you may write any style you wish.... How would you end this piece?
Good luck!
~Cleo

[Cleo_Serapis]

Dear Cleo

1st reaction, and 2nd, and 3rd, on re-reading : What a load of tosh, not worth the effort of digging to try and understand what this MIGHT be about. The sort of poem that gave me the idea that poetry is a load of old rubbish, a complete turn-off !
! Well, at least you tell us what ya think!

Lines in the style ? I can but par-or-die :

BUILDERS OF SALES CAMPAIGNS

We write with words and deep emotion all
that shall be plastered here and there.
Quite fair and great our "bat and ball",
but, how eloquent we can not compare,
who see competing ads in ev'ry mall.

Is this sort of reply any use to you at all ?

Love
Alan

PS I'M BACK home this morning !

Welcome back Alan! Happy New Year!

I like your reply, very funny, but you've got the rhythm in place - did ya notice?    ???

Now - write an ending too please...

Cheers!
~Cleo  

[Guest__*]

Dear Jox & Cleo

Thank you for the welcomes !

James, this style of poem convinced me for 51 years that poetry is rubbish. I recall being forced through Darien's Peak or some such by Keats at school, where the only thing I learned with certainty is that the effort to disassemble to find the meanings was not worth the effort, the meanings gleaned I mean. All that hacking through the jungles of the isthmus to see .... water, I ask you !

But I guess in Vic days the rich had nothing better to do to fill their idle lives, so this wordy version of charades was ideal ?

Ending ?

Ruins of Builders - a parody through and through on "Creatives" in ad-land !

We write with words, "sincere" emotion all
that shall be plastered here and there.
Quite fair and great our "bat and ball",
but, how eloquent we shall not compare,
who see competing ads in ev'ry mall.

The stars who're paid, then act, cause fall
of advert-trusters, who one by one
stand musing o'er our empty stall;
and fleeting coins shall fall upon
these images, our lier's wall.

What have they wrought, these lives of ours,
so many-worded, multi-conned;
a bitter wind will shake the towers,
and dark with color, sunless and cold,
we'll die, alone with plastic flowers.

It makes him pause, this poet's whim,
the shrill and wordly-played ideas,
and those pathetic thoughts, so dim,
for he, etern'ly mulling, sans fears,
dying, feels ennui overcoming him !


Alan McAlpine Douglas (writting under the name of Alice Barrett Keats - In-joke for Jox ! )

[Guest_Jox_*]

And make our pause and silence brim
with the shrill children's play, and sweets
of those pathetic flowers and dim,
of those eternal flowers my Keats,
dying, felt growing over him!

Alternative ending...

Man has but a short time to live...
Ashes to ashes, etc...

I wouldn't have the ability nor interest to write an alternative ending to another's poem. However, I've put both my brain cells to this and I think I have a perfect ending. Mind you, the rest of the poem would need changing too!

Seriously, I could not do as well as this...

Don't live today for tomorrow like you were immortal.
The only survivors on this world of ours are
The warming sun, the cooling rain,
The snowflake drifting on the breath of the breeze,
The lightning bolt that frees the sky for you
Yet only eagles seem to pass on through.
The words of love, the cries of hate,
And the man in the moon who seduced you
Then finally loosed you.

(Excerpt of lyrics from “Burning Rope” song by Genesis - from their Album “And Then There Were Three” - March 1978)

Album available from Amazon.Com here - well worth buying!

Now, I know one is spoken poetry and t'other lyrics but I think they express not dissimilar sentiments but in extremely different ways.

Besides, I’m sure Mr Moon is more romantic than Mr Keats

(Just to prove that I do have an interest in Keats and don't dismiss him lightly, here's an excerpt from his biography... (Sir Sidney Colvin (1887))

and went in the second week of August to Winchester. The old cathedral city, with its peaceful closes breathing antiquity, its clear-coursing streams and beautiful elm-shadowed meadow walks, and the nimble and pure air of its surrounding downs, exactly suited Keats, who quickly improved both in health and spirits. The days which he spent here, from the middle of August to the middle of October, were the last good days of his life. Working with a steady intensity of application, he managed to steel himself for the time being against the importunity of his passion, although never without a certain feverishness in the effort.

Winchester... 2004 - I'll be in the City Centre tomorrow (I'm rather later than Keats, he was here in 1819) - passing the Keats Room in our Guildhall so I'll give a nod in its direction in respect of John Keats from all his friends at MM.

James.

[Guest_Jox_*]

Alan, Hi.

Yes, I am completely out of kilter with Victoriana - though, to be fair, Keats was actually rather earlier than that - he was about snuffing it when Vicky-baby was born. (Still, I quite wrongly, call almost everything in 18thC "Victoriana").

I can't even enjoy the Brontes (any of them!) or another local writer - Jane Austin - she's actually buried in our Cathedral - I shall (literally) be walking over her grave tomorrow. I just feel so alienated by the language - and as you indicate - the "toffish" Grand Tour mentality. (Though those novelists did not take that to the best of my knowledge).

Now, someone reading this may say I only like modern works. Not so! In music my favourites are things "like" Tangerine Dream and The Beatles, Gregorian chants, Montverdi's Vespers and I even have an album of Anglo-Saxon Easter Music - great stuff, even if they were the thugs who duffed-up the Welsh. Moreover, as my signature indicates, I still regard Wagger-Dagger as THE greatest writer in the English language - and I would expect in any language. Only last night I watched Richard II for nearly four hours on tv. So I'm not a brutal modernist at all - but save me from all that gushing romantic "Victoriana" stuff - please! (For the record, if romance be the food of dreams then read on (Bill, naturally).

James.

[Guest__*]

Dear Jox

"if romance be the food of dreams then read on (Bill, naturally)"

I assume that this is Bill ...... Clinton ?

Jane Austen - A friend who had my respect encouraged me to read Pride and Prejudice, which would have been right outside my normal interests, and I am very glad I did - it IS one of the greatest books in the language, and quite fascinating, because, actually, nothing happens, but it is beautifully described.

I had the Pehguin version, which has a long, scholarly, intro. But when I realised that this a-hole of an intro-writer was actually telling the story in sequence, and full of psychologolocical (yeah, you got it ! ) babble, I finally skipped to the real thing. I have to encourage you to struggle in, then you will love it.

Guess what - it is midnight, and I'm wide awake.

Love
Alan

[Athena]

Welcome back, Alan!    

As for these exercises, you know, Folks:  
It is my thought
I'm not so hot
at following instruction;
for when I try
my skill to ply
my efforts bring destruction!  


But, I enjoy reading what all the rest of you are doing! I'm really impressed with all your efforts ... they're waaaaay cool!    

Hugs,
Dolly  

[Guest__*]

Dear Daniel

Well, if that doesn't bring it slap up to date, nothing ever will. Love it !

Love
Alan

[Athena]

Hi Don,

I wanted to get in here to give you thanks for your sweet words to me about my first poem in this thread.  Most kind of you.

Thank you!

Dolly

[Cleo_Serapis]

We build with strength and deep tower wall
that shall be shattered thus and thus.
And fair and great are court and hall,
but how fair--this is not for us,
who know the lack that lurks in all.

And make our pause and silence brim
with the shrill children's play, and sweets
of those pathetic flowers and dim,
of those eternal flowers my Keats,
dying, felt growing over him!


Cleo's alternate ending:

When all the world has come to pass
and all beliefs site fields of doom.
You'll find new life amidst the grass
where ageless weeds begin to bloom,
and breathe forevermore enmasse.