Haiku, Japanese form Options

[Guest_Perrorist_*]

Thanks everyone for the comments so far.

Grace, regarding the thematic link:

"leaf falling from tree
spirals silently to earth;
bloated corpse drifts by"

What joins the two thoughts is death. In the first, it is death by natural decay; in the second, it is natural disaster (flood). Is this consistent with haiku? I'm no haijin but I thought the important element was to have two thoughts that had something in common to provide an insight into something or other.

Having said that, I like your version because it has more subtlety than mine.

Perry

[Cybele]

Hello again Perry,

What joins the two thoughts is death. In the first, it is death by natural decay; in the second, it is natural disaster (flood). Is this consistent with haiku? I'm no haijin but I thought the important element was to have two thoughts that had something in common to provide an insight into something or other.

Yes, I can see the 'death' connection Perry. How to explain?

Your piece says this to me as the reader.

leaf falling from tree
spirals silently to earth;                 bloated corpse drifts by

Although they both represent death, they are disjointed in that the mind's eye cannot form a continuous picture.

Whereas if the tree overhang the river your piece would have far greater impact in leading the eye straight onto the unexpected vision of a bloated corpse.

From the gentle introduction and image of a falling leaf the shock impact of the vision of the corpse would be tremendous.

[Guest_Jox_*]

I took the corpse to be the dead leaf. (And then the whole - tree and leaf to be metaphors for human life / death)

Oh well.

James.

[Cybele]

Hello James,

I took the corpse to be the dead leaf. (And then the whole - tree and leaf to be metaphors for human life / death)

Oh well.

James.


You had me worried there for a minute James,   I thought I had misinterpreted Perry's piece, so I went back to check and this is what Perry says...

What joins the two thoughts is death. In the first, it is death by natural decay; in the second, it is natural disaster (flood).

[Guest_Jox_*]

Ah! It doesn't matter what the writer thinks, Grace.

Once the piece is in the public domain, readers may interpret it as they wish. I was just meaning that I think the thoughts are linked as you wished. Because, for me, the corpse is a leaf. (And the whole a metaphor). I take a different view of his poem's meaning from Perry, that's all - and I think my view accords with your requirements - doesn't it? (That was my "oh well").

James.

[Guest_Toumai_*]

Hi Perry,

playmate of the month
poses for her centrefold;
do not staple here

I saw this at breakfast and I am still chuckling. Ouch.

A haiku is supposed to describe natural images and contain a seasonal reference (I may have mis-phrased that, but it is along those lines). You are on safer ground with senryu, since this touches on humanity.

However, I suppose you could argue that humanity is part of nature, "wot she is doin' is on'y nat'r'l", and she probably contains a fair ammount of added silicon (which is of course a very common earth-element). I don't think I'll start on any seasonal allusions, though.

Very funny, and well done.

Fran

[Guest_Jox_*]

Hi all,

I disagree with both Grace and Fran. This "haiku is supposed to show nature" etc is old hat. I'll be back on this asap.

James.

[JustDaniel]

Suggestion for James:

Allow it to merge in your mind if you like.  I've merged them myself in my faux-ku.

SEN-RY-U: The FORM of both types are the same.  The name and subject matter are different.  

Perry's first piece is an excellent example of SENRYU.

His second (particularly with Grace's great suggestion) makes an excellent HAIKU.

Each has two snapshots of the same occurrence from a different vantage point and emphasis.

sharin' de Light, Daniel  

[Guest_Jox_*]

OK, I'll start piling evidence here.

Please note: I was developing this tile before daniel and I had our discussion. None of this relates to that whatsoever. I have tried to make that clear by my language but, if I'm to state my case, there's only a certain amount I can do to make this sound impersonal. It really is, honest.

What I'm trying to show is a multiplicity of approaches to haiku. There are actually more divisions of this type of poetry than listed on MM. Each slight accent (of meaning) seems to carry a new name. Try it for yourself - write a haiku about motor racing and give it a new genre name. Easy.

What I am arguing is that, throughout the centuries - from at least the 15thC to the 21stC different people have taken the basic haiku and adopted it for their purposes. Different syllables, different subjects, humourous, non-humourous, about nature, not about nature and so on. My argument is that we should not accept anyone's frozen definition of the haiku. It is really a very flexible art form which is beautiful and adaptable to so many different subjects, meanings and approaches.

It's not even in my vested interest, really - I write very few haikus and they are generally concerned with nature anyway. But I don't see why rules should be laid down and poets told to stick to them. Moreover, it seems bizarre to start a new name for every variation. Please understand, I don't mind in the least what you call your poem - or others' poems. Doesn't matter to me. All I care about is that when I see or write something I think a haiku, people don't tell me I'm wrong without an over-riding reason. Now, the only way to determine if they are correct is by reference to other (third party) authorities. My submissioin is thus: since I have found a wide divergence of opinion - from haikus are anything to haikus are this prercise form... then there is no overall agreement as to what constitutes a haiku. So my opinion is as good as anyone else's on the matter. And yours, is as good as mine and their's.
#01:Haiku For People website

This website makes the point that there are actually quite a number of different Japanese forms which have been added to make a modern, westernised haiku (But, as I'll show later modern ain't modern any more)...


"The history of the modern haiku dates from Masaoka Shiki's reform, begun in 1892, which established haiku as a new independent poetic form. Shiki's reform did not change two traditional elements of haiku: the division of 17 syllables into three groups of 5, 7, and 5 syllables and the inclusion of a seasonal theme."

How to write Haiku

"In Japanese, the rules for how to write Haiku are clear, and will not be discussed here. In foreign languages, there exist NO consensus in how to write Haiku-poems. Anyway, let's take a look at the basic knowledge:"

What to write about?

"Haiku-poems can describe almost anything, but you seldom find themes which are too complicated for normal PEOPLE's recognition and understanding. Some of the most thrilling Haiku-poems describe daily situations in a way that gives the reader a brand new experience of a well-known situation."

#02: Before Basho...

In the 16th century, instead of renga, it was haikai - humorous poem - that became popular. Haikai (haikai-renga) is a poem made of verses of 17 and 14 syllables like renga, but it parodies renga introducing modern vulgar laughter. Haikai poets used plays on words and treated preferably things of daily life renga hadn't found interesting.

The first verse of renga and haikai is called "hokku". Haikai poets sometimes presented their hokkus as independent poems. These were the origin of haiku.

It was traditionally demanded to adopt a kigo (season word: word reffering to a season) in the first verse of renga and haikai. Therefore, they demand to introduce a kigo in a hokku (and in a haiku) too.

#03 Scj-Fi  Hikus

(Yes, someone else has created yet another variant and given it their own name. Good game, good game.)

SciFaiku is a distinctive and powerful form of expression for science fiction. It packs all the human insight, technology, and vision of the future into a few poignant lines.

SciFaiku is haiku and it is not haiku. It is driven by the inspiration and many of the principles of haiku, but it takes its own direction. It deviates, expands, and frees itself of haiku.

#04: AHA Poetry . Com

Is It A Haiku?

"The points brought up in these previous messages are valid
and very interesting. I believe it shows how meaningful haiku
can be when we remove a few pickets from the *fence*. I am
bothered by the several times it is asked, "Is this a haiku?"
I think the better question is, "Do I want to accept this poem
as an example of haiku for myself?" With this way of stating
the question, perhaps one can avoid painful discourses.  I am
totally for discussion, but when anyone assumes the authority
to say  "what haiku is(or isn't)", I feel the discussion has
ended and turned into something quite different."


James.

[Guest_Jox_*]

Hi Daniel -

>>Suggestion for James:

>>Allow it to merge in your mind if you like.  I've merged them myself in my faux-ku. However, since you're allowing OTHERS (including me) to differentiate between them, please DO allow us to, will you?  Thanks.

Daniel I'm not stopping you doing anything. You're welcome to use whichever rules, guidelines and suggestions you wish. How could I stop you if I tried?

Please also note that I had not addressed you at all - I didn't even realise you were around at present, I was commenting to Grace, Fran and Perry. It is great to see you join in but I’m not quite sure how you can sound so offended, given I haven’t exchanged comments with you for days at least and on this subject for much longer.

>>The FORM of both types are the same.  The name and subject matter are different.  

Fine. I don’t distinguish between them. And if I don’t want to I will not. You are most welcome to.

>>Perry's first piece is an excellent example of SENRYU.

Fine. I shall regard it as a Haiku. I disagree with you. Please don’t “shout” by using capitals.

>>His second (particularly with Grace's great suggestion) makes an excellent HAIKU

Ditto.

>>Each has two snapshots of the same occurrence from a different vantage point and emphasis.

You have not actually made a single statement of evidence, Daniel - just stated your view as to the classification. Without your evidence I have no way of knowing upon what you base your statements - so I can neither take issue with you, nor agree with you. If you wish to, please present your evidence and I’ll do my best, as a courtesy, to respond. However, from a personal view-point, I’m not interested in this division. “Haiku,” covers both pieces for me very well thanks. I can live with that.

Overall..

I disagree with your inferences and approach, Daniel. Art is not science; it is not precision. Classifications are useful - helpful to know what is prose; what poetry; what a sonnet; what a SQ. But to me this haiku / Sen thing is angles dancing on pinheads. You are free to explore the deep crevices betwixt these forms; I choose not to. Our approaches are not mutually exclusive. However, simply because your opinion is different from mine does not make you right and me wrong - nor vice versa. If art is about anything, it must be about interpretation of creation. Would it not be a sad thing if a multiplicity of views were not available?

See you later, James.

[Guest_Toumai_*]

Hi everyone,

I am not very comfortable in here right now, but I thought it might help to look at Cleo's opening post on this thread:

Haiku is one of the most important forms of traditional Japanese poetry. Haiku is, today, a 17-syllable verse form consisting of three metrical units of 5, 7, and 5 syllables respectively.

Haiku (in English) usually appears as an unrhymed three-line verse. It should balance intense, fragmentary imagery with stress on rhythm and sound. Though it can be presented in three lines, a haiku structurally consists of two parts with a pause in between. The power behind it derives from the juxtaposition of the two images and the sense of surprise or revelation that the second image produces. A good haiku is like a good joke: the set-up, then the punch line.

In the broadest sense,Haiku is about Nature. In Japan, most haiku have a season word (Spring, Summer, Autumn, Winter, New Years) that links the poem with the vast, archetypal round of the Year of Life. Today, in place of the season word, some contemporary haiku poets use keywords that express common themes of human experience (for example, "mother"). This, however, is a matter of controversy in modern haiku.

With love to all,    
Fran

[JustDaniel]

Amen, Fran!

This is a practice thread; the distinctions have been set out up front.  Let's just write them.  Debate belongs elswhere.  That's my only point.  

Blessings to all.

sharin' de Light, Daniel  

[Guest_Jox_*]

Hi Fran,

My apologies to you. I wish neither you, nor anyone else, any discomfort.

It is only an academic disagreement. 'Tis all.

Thank you for commentating.

James.

[Guest_Jox_*]

Hi Daniel

Sorry, I don't agree; This is an educational thread and it is very wrong to educate anyone on anything without looking at the various aspects and different opinions about a subject. All such contributions are valid. (including yours and mine).

There are two forums for "just writing" haiku - the crit forum and the exhibition forum. This is education - to which you just contributed. One cannot really contribute then simply deny others a similar participation. To do that would be to make one's own position clear then silence those who disagree - and I'm sure that neither of us would wish to do that.

All the best, James.

[JustDaniel]

snow-covered windshield
whisked with a brush of a hand;
morn's air is cleared

© Daniel J Ricketts 04 Jan 2005

[Guest_Jox_*]

Hi Daniel..

I think New Jersey is in New England (hope I'm right) and I know you chaps have had lots of bad weather up there. So this poem seems especially apt. Here we've been seized by Global Warming (or hoards of fairies with hair-dryers) and let you have all the tough stuff (famous last words).

So I can see how this poem relates to your weather. (mind you, you are still a little lucky - whenever I brush snow off, there is an ice layer underneath which clings to the windscreen).

Nice one, Daniel.

James.

[Cybele]

Hello James,


Ah! It doesn't matter what the writer thinks, Grace.

Can't agree with this James, if the writer hadn't thought in the first place there would be nothing for us to read.  
And surely the writer has his/her point of view to put across. He is allowed to state his own interpretation of his own piece. (As we all do when explaining why we wrote the words we wrote, in the order we wrote them.

Once the piece is in the public domain, readers may interpret it as they wish.

Certainly they may and I was not saying that your interpration was wrong, only that I had taken a different meaning from it. There was no criticism of your view whatsover. I was merely trying to understand what Perry was trying to say and  demonstrate a different way of saying it.

As to the haiku/senryu debate - it matters not one jot to me what people wish to call it, I was merely offering the definitions of the two words.

Fran,

I am so sorry if you feel uncomfortable here. That is such a shame, since Haiku is one of the most beautiful forms of pure poetry I have encountered. I find these tiny snapshots help to keep my brain ticking over and sometimes inspire longer poems.

Perry,

I hope all this debate will not put you off posting more Haiku for us to read and enjoy.  :wave:

[Cybele]

keen gardener;
squatting spider evicted
from his wellingtons

[JustDaniel]

Hey, James!

You're not too far off; actually New England is basically the states north of New York.  Most of New Jersey is SSW of NY, and the part where we live is actually below the "Mason-Dixon Line" the legendary division between the old "North" and "South" ... that some die-hards still hold to.  (I ain't one o' them!)  The climate here is moderated by both the Delaware Bay and the Atlantic Ocean... and immediately here by the Cohansey River, which is a tidal river that flows in and out of the Delaware.

We got an inch or so of snow this morning, but it's the first day that the temp seems to be climbing above freezing for a couple of weeks.  There's been a LOT of snow and ice this year SOUTH of us. The weather patterns in the US this winter have been a bit topsy-turvy of the "usual."  Whether that's the effect of "Global Warming" is up for grabs, I suppose, but surely seems to be.

Anyhow, you may be interested in a bit of "hillbilly humor" on the subject in the faux-ku tile.  There, the requirements of the form are absolute -- since I invented them and declared them to be -- so there ain't no debatin'    

Thanks for clearin' the windshield; I'll be back with more haiku snow when the weather's right in me head.  

deLightingly, Daniel  

[JustDaniel]

keen gardener;
squatting spider evicted
from his wellingtons

Wonderful piece, Grace.  I just need your help some by giving me a bit of background on "wellingtons" ?  The computer I'm on at work is slower than molasses, so I really can't do a search on it.  I'll thank you for giving me even greater appreciation of your two garden snapshots!

deLightingly, Daniel  :cool: