Haiku, Japanese form Options

[Cybele]

[b]Hello Daniel,

Back from my trip to Cornwall.

warm waves in Rio
lick sandy nmounds that topple...
less than Bikini's

Hmmm, yes I've seen pictures of those bikini's in Rio and from the rear it looked as if the wearers had been strapped for cash !!

Lick sandy nmounds (was that deliberated or a typo?)




Tell you what Daniel, I don't mind if they are senryu of haiku.  

bitter winter's night,
eerie moonlight illumines
a frozen scarecrow

Love

Grace

[JustDaniel]

It was an interesting typo, huh?  

How about this for a follow-up to your inspiring piece, Grace?  (And welcome bac to CornBall!)

shiver to mourning;
rays strike scarecrow’s frozen head
as tears flow lightly

Huggin' Lightly, Daniel  

[Cybele]

Hi there Daniel,

I hope the patient is recovering? Another couple of days at home before I dash off again.

shiver to mourning;
rays strike scarecrow’s frozen head
as tears flow lightly

Nice riposte Daniel, I especially like the image in the second and third lines, very visual.


Back to glorious Autumn then..  

autumn’s lost treasure
nestling on a bed of leaves
a dove-grey feather

Love

Grace

[JustDaniel]

ah, a very sensitive piece!  You make the feather bed sneak up on the reader!

grey-feather dove
no more winters in Rio;
she misses her flight

wimpering Lightly, Daniel  :sun:

P.S.  My bronchitis has mostly flown away.  I wish I could!

[Cybele]

Hi Daniel,

Glad to hear you are recovering, I know how awful bronchitis is.  

grey-feather dove
no more winters in Rio;
she misses her flight


nice reply Daniel, but I am having trouble reading that shade of blue it comes out far too pale on my screen.  

morning glories
reflect  the cerulean sky;
blues music

Love

Grace

[JustDaniel]

Hey, Grace...

I'm not sure whether I'm shady...  or pale in insignificance against the bacground of your poetry!  

... but I certainly like your latest haiku!

Now, if you don't object too strongly, I'd like to introduce the serious haiku that your piece again mused [ You may simply remove the title from it to have what I think on the surface (floating feathers) is a rather innocent haiku ] in the form of my infamous faux-ku:

blue eau beau

cerulean wind
wooed eider down between reeds;
blew music heaven

© MLee Dickens’son 19 Nov 2004

It it always a pleasure to bounce off of you!

Lightly beaming, Daniel  

[Cybele]

Good morning Daniel,  

cerulean wind
wooed eider down between reeds;
blew music heaven

I much prefer this as a serious haiku Daniel. A lovely picture!



It is teeming down over here, (which inspired this piece)

fat  raindrops
dance merrily on  the pond;
fat frog croaks the tune

Love

Grace

[JustDaniel]

Please note again, Grace, that the title on my haiku was just a practice addition... and it IS a serious faux-ku.  Don't you think a person can be VERY serious with a twinkle in his eye?  I wanted you to hear the oboe in the bacground of the orchestra along with the vocals!  Did you?

But I do honestly appreciate your prodding me toward the purely serious haiku.  I hope I haven't kept others away with my humor.  I have a tendency to do that, I've learned!

Anyhow, I found your latest rendition cute, but a bit on the fat side!    I've been trying to think of something to pair with it, but an image of a frog 'croaking' keeps coming to mind, and I see myself fishing him out of the bottom of the pond or seeing him floating on the top all bloated... so I've just stayed away for a bit.

But alas I come back to have that same word croak out at me!

maple leaf dances

to strains of an autumn air;

pond ripples applause

strokin' Lightly, Daniel  

[Cybele]

Hello Daniel,

maple leaf dances

to strains of an autumn air;

pond ripples applause

Quite lovely and LIGHT

summer balloon fest
silent silken  rainbows rise;
child blows bright bubbles

I know, it's senryu, but it is still haiku  

Lolve

Grace

[JustDaniel]

dove saw yer balloon;
it sent ya a rude, high coo
just to put ya down

dove coos at strange orbs;
balloons and bubbles float past
as cloud wrinkles brow

[Cybele]

Hello Daniel,

Couldn't see this one until I transferred it here. That light blue doesn't show up very well at all.

dove coos at strange orbs;
balloons and bubbles float past
as cloud wrinkles brow

Very good Daniel, but no cl;ouds on this beautiful morning. They held off till the next morning, thank goodness.

Love

Grace

[Cybele]

Hi Daniel,

A turn around. My reply to you reply.

dove coos at strange orbs;
balloons and bubbles float past
as cloud wrinkles brow

            billing and cooing
            turtle doves in a pear tree;
            cotton clouds float by


                   :dove:  :dove:


Love

Grace

[JustDaniel]

            billing and cooing
            turtle doves in a pear tree;
            cotton clouds float by


                     

turnabout is fair play in this thread!

grouse a bit ruffled
when squatter doves nest his pear;
soon he goes coo coo

turnin' on de Light, Daniel  

[JustDaniel]

Continuing the bird theme, I went outside to my van at work this morning to be surrounded by this scene... and just as suddenly, it disappeared:

tinkle-like cackling
swarms from sky, filling tree heights;
grackles leave ~ silence

© Daniel J Ricketts 06 Dec 2004

[Guest_Jox_*]

Hi,

Towards undefining haiku...

The British Haiku Society (membership £20-25 pa) has an excellent web page...

British Haiku Society

I suggest you take a look there and click on the "Occasional Papers" link on the left menu bar. The paper sets-out the parameters for haiku, as they see it and even mentions sci-fi haiku etc.

There is also a page of national competition winning entries - some of which abnadon the 5-7-5 format.

I quote a small piece from the website:

"Followers of haiku also debate whether the Japanese haiku experience (defined in socio-cultural, literary, linguistic and environmental terms) is too exotic to be assimilated by the West, and they argue about the validity of supposed Japanese 'rules' on how to make haiku - even though there has never been unanimity in Japan itself about such principles, and the view of haiku available to most people in the West is one clouded by translation and the mind-sets of those who did the translating."

"These are the reasons why it is unlikely, either now or at any time in the future, that there will ever be an absolute consensus of what haiku means to the informed person.."

I think this means that Grace's haiku with its different syllable count for all (except me who does see it as 5.7.5) is fine and that my more extreme views are fine, too. This second quote rather sums-up the situation...

"Some regard the form of 17 syllables (divided 5-7-5) as sacrosanct, as if it had some indefinable poetic or spiritual justification, or was ordained by literary history. The fact is, the form derives from nothing more mysterious than inbred Japanese phrasing, found in statements as unpoetic as police notices and TV commercials."

There is also mention of Senryu - defined very much as Daniel has already stated on MM. However, the following is interesting...

"For most Japanese there is, for cultural-historical reasons, an almost unbridgeable gap between haiku and senryu. Because of our traditions in the West, this kind of compartmentalisation is unsustainable. The majority of Western writers produce haiku and senryu indiscriminately."

I recommend a visit to the site. It does suggest parameters which define these two verse forms and says specific approaches and topics could not be consodered to be haiku. In fact it is very impressive.

The British haiku Society runs competitions - but only for its members, apparently - though, as I understand it, anyone from anywhere in the World is welcome to join.

All the best, James.

[Cybele]

Thank you for this James,

May I add this extract found on the site Yellow Moon?

  Haiku is usually written in three lines with a strict maximum of 17 syllables in a traditional pattern of 5-7-5, but English syllables are not the same as Japanese onji. They vary in length. So many English haiku may have fewer syllables.
    Haiku should contain a seasonal word but you do not need to use the names of the actual seasons, such as Spring or Autumn. Other, less predictable words may indicate season - wattle, buds, rapeseed, new life, almond blossom, falling leaves, melting snow. Use the names of the seasons themselves to symbolise birth, life, growing old, or death. Symbolic words have deeper meaning. A crow may allude to death; a raven to a message. Water may suggest an emotion, or air a spirit.
    Haiku is a simple statement or image, a moment keenly perceived, about a physical aspect of nature which induces an emotional human response and the contemplation of life's wonder and transience. Unlike other poetic styles, haiku disregards such contrivances as alliteration, assonance or rhyme, unless these occur naturally. It uses the natural flow of voice patterns. In haiku nothing is 'like' or 'as' something else - it is only itself. It is the human observation of, and identification with, the natural world that shape the haiku.
    Do not start each line of your haiku with a capital letter unless that line is an independent sentence. Use of enjambment (one line flowing into another) is preferable to short staccato phrases. Haiku is rarely about individuals so does not often use the personal pronoun, although a derivation of haiku called SENRYU does.


Hope this helps.

[Guest_Jox_*]

Thanks Grace.

It seems to me that there is very little agreement about what a haiku should be. They tend to occupy three lines and are quite short. They are often about nature. They were originally based on Japanese verse form. Beyond that I see no firm consensus. Certainly the number of syllables, the subject, the use of metaphor (frowned on by many) can fine and so on. Much rests on English translations of the original Japanese - and these seem many and variable.

I think this underlines the point I'm trying to make which is that strict form in haiku is erroneous. Moreover, there is no reason why individuals should not develop the form for themselves (as you say you were doing with your clock tower).

Lori invents new forms but the line between invention and development is fine. Unless we are to fossilise forms then they must be developed. Nonetheless, when people wish to adhere strictly to what they believe to be a classic form that is fine, too. I just think we should accept that a plurality of approach is fine. I would ask just three questions:

What is poetry for?
Why does it matter if classic interpretations - or misinterpretations - are not adhered to?
Should not developments be welcomed? (They do not harm the other versions - which remain to be used by anyone).

James.

Finally, and on a more personal note, I suppose. Whenever someone says I should do something, I immediately see a challenge. I want to know why I should? why they are saying I should? what authority they have to say so? why I should actually do what is said? I find the majority of the time people are merely trying to impose their views as gospel. I almost always see "should" as a challenge and usually feel duty-bound to both argue that they are basing their claim on their own chosen foundations and to go in the opposite direction as hard as possible to prove "should" is merely an opinion. And when people challenge me on my assertions (because I do the same, of course) I relish the argument - can be fascinating. So, when I see "Haiku should contain a seasonal word but you do not need to..." I feel almost duty bound to write a haiku which is abstract or based on (as the British Haiku Society says is possible) science fiction. Then again, I'm not a fan of science fiction unless some idea hits me... or was it some Japanese spirit - The Haiku God?

[jgdittier]

moon and sun align
a shadow transits landscapes
how bright this candle

[Guest_Jox_*]

Hi Ron,

Good to see you venturing into haiku.

Just one q... transites? Couldn't find it in the dictionary - could you please enlighten me?

Cheers, James.

[Guest_Toumai_*]

Hi Jgd,

This is beautiful - the eclipse shadow sweeping across the scene and the sudden darkness.

My mother-in-law saw a solar eclipse a few years ago stying at a friend's farm in Devon and she said that as darkness swept accross the hills all the bats flew out of the barn in confusion (and then dashed back again when the sunlight returned).

I think I remember seeing in the Haiku definitions that there is supposed to be a 'natural seasonal image' but no doubt the experts (Grace, Daniel, Cleo and others) can explain that if 'tis so. Otherwise it would qualify as Senryu, which seems to be similar form but with less strict requirements on content (although from recent discussions on MM all are English-speaking impositions on what were after all forms from a very different language and tradition.... )

(I'm not sure if I'm supposed to write so much in a non-crit forum - apolgies if I have said too much, and I will edit if asked.)

Fran