WHISPERS, Sonnet SECOND REVISION Options

[Psyche]

An oldie, but with several recent changes. Crits welcome!

SECOND REVISION

WHISPERS

Fate chimes no hour for loss, at most infers
that man nor woman, child nor oldsters know,
-though each to our own impulse staunchly stirs-
why hazard strikes or gods decree we go.

I ask not where nor why your death was writ:
in shadows of converging night you went,
trampled back to earth, blindly as permits
a youth’s despair; his inner substance spent,

conveyed on Winter’s breeze with frailest dawn -
a yoke that only Time redeems in time.
My child, no penance does that breeze inform

and in sweet verse your soul I will enshrine
with love. Freed from chains, splendor is reborn;
whisper to your heart: its warmth dwells in mine!

By Psyche


FIRST REVISION


WHISPERS

Fate chimes no hour for loss, at most infers
that man nor woman, child nor oldsters know,
-though each to our own impulse seemly stirs-
why hazard strikes or gods decree we go.

I ask not where nor why your death was writ:
in shadows of converging night you went,
trampled back to earth, blindly as permits
a youth’s despair, his inner substance spent,

conveyed on Winter’s breeze with frailest dawn -
a yoke that only Time redeems in time.
My child, no penance does that breeze inform

and in sweet verse your soul I will enshrine
with love. Freed from chains, splendor is reborn:
whisper to your heart: its warmth dwells in mine!

By Psyche



WHISPERS

Fate chimes no hour for loss, but most infers
that man nor woman, child nor oldsters know,
-though each to our own impulse seemly stirs-
why hazard strikes or gods decree we go.

I ask not where nor why your death was writ:
in shadows of converging night you went,
trampled back to earth, blindly as permits
a youth’s despair, his inner substance spent,

conveyed on Winter’s breeze with frailest dawn -
a yoke that only time redeems in time.
My child, no penance does that breeze inform

and in sweet verse your soul I will enshrine
with love. Freed from chains, splendor is reborn:
whisper to your heart: its warmth dwells in mine!

By Psyche


Copyright:Sylvia Maclagan, Buenos Aires, Argentina, 2008.

[jgdittier]

Dear Sylvia,
The way you manage emotion in a second language, I wonder just how great your poetry would be in your first one!
Interesting form too!
Cheers, Ron jgd

[Psyche]

Thank you for stopping by, Ron! I'll return to your remarks later on, just wanted to let you know I highly appreciate your visits.

All the best,
Syl ***

[Larry]

Hello Sylvia,

As Ron noted, interesting form for a sonnet. I read it through numerous times and kept finding
bumps in S2L3, and S4L2&3. Maybe it is the way I am reading it, I don't know.

In S3L3, "time" seemed to dominate with its duality of usage and meaning.

Here are some suggestions which you may use or lose.

(out) {in} [change]

Fate chimes no hour for loss, (but) {at} most infers
that man nor woman, child nor oldsters know,
-though each to our own impulse seemly stirs-
why hazard strikes or gods decree we go.

I ask not where nor why your death was writ:
in shadows (of converging night} {which converged with night} you went,
tramp(l)ed back to earth, {as} blindly as permits
a youth’s despair, his inner substance spent,

conveyed on Winter’s breeze with frailest dawn -
[a yoke that only time redeems in time.] {a yoke, only redeemed by hands of time}
My child, no penance does that breeze inform

and in sweet verse your soul I will enshrine
[with love. Freed from chains, splendor is reborn:]
{with love. From shackles freed, splendor reborn:}
[whisper to your heart: its warmth dwells in mine!]
{a whispered vow: heart's warmth now dwells in mine!}

The lamentable fact that we do not know when, why or how we will meet our demise is beautifully explained in your sonnet. I don't think I would want to know anyhow. I have enough to worry about without shouldering that "yoke".

Larry

[Psyche]

Dear Ron,
I apologize for late response. Just after daughter's 5-day visit from distant Patagonia, there was a widespread 36-hour Internet collapse....
Maybe the emotional part you mention is influenced by the Spanish language. Latinos are highly emotional! And the great Spanish poets such as Góngora, Quevedo, Bécquer, etc. used hyperbole as a recognized poetic figure regularly. Nowadays 'hyperbole' is what politicians use, right?
Sorry, I'm perplexed by the 'interesting form' you point out...Perhaps you're kidding me with regard to my poor metrical knowledge?...LOL...
Thanks for stopping by, Ron.
Syl ***
PS: I answered your e.mail about Shakespearean matters, but at least one bounced back, BTW.

[Psyche]

Hello Larry,
Delighted that you read and critted my sonnet! I hunger for help from the experts...LOL...Having said that, I also find comments from just about anybody highly enlightening, including non-poets.

I'm curious about the 'interesting form' issue. Haven't got a clue...except that I used 10 sylls and didn't check metre since I need help for that.

Let's see now:


Here are some suggestions which you may use or lose. (out) {in} [change]

Fate chimes no hour for loss, (but) {at} most infers Yes, that's good.
that man nor woman, child nor oldsters know,
-though each to our own impulse seemly stirs-
why hazard strikes or gods decree we go.

I ask not where nor why your death was writ:
in shadows (of converging night} {which converged with night} you went,

Did you correct L2 for grammatical reasons? Is my English incorrect? Will change, if so.

tramp(l)ed back to earth, {as} blindly as permits

I'll try to explain at the end why I need to use 'trampled'. If there's a metrical problem, please tell me, and I'll see what I can do, OK?

a youth’s despair, his inner substance spent,

conveyed on Winter’s breeze with frailest dawn -
[a yoke that only time redeems in time.] {a yoke, only redeemed by hands of time}

I used a 'word alliteration', quite common in Spanish. But I could substitute for a synonym of time, which would also be a word allit. S.O.S...!!!

My child, no penance does that breeze inform

and in sweet verse your soul I will enshrine
[with love. Freed from chains, splendor is reborn:]
{with love. From shackles freed, splendor reborn:} Yes, sounds good, Larry. Yet I believe I used 'chains' because it has a certain inner rhyme with 'enshrine'...dunno..

[whisper to your heart: its warmth dwells in mine!]
{a whispered vow: heart's warmth now dwells in mine!}

Your L4 is lovely, but changes my meaning. Will explain now, if it's explainable..

The lamentable fact that we do not know when, why or how we will meet our demise is beautifully explained in your sonnet. I don't think I would want to know anyhow. I have enough to worry about without shouldering that "yoke".

Thank you, Larry. No, I wouldn't want to know either... In this poem, nonetheless, the MC is trying to come to terms with a death that doesn't seem to tally with God's or fate's 'plans'; a sort of dialogue with the MC's self and the spirit of the dead person, which was sudden, unexpected and unexplained. I don't know whether I'm making any sense...

'Trampled' is because it was a traffic accident, it's literal. The yoke, chains, penance, etc. are because it could have been intentional -suicide- but never confirmed. There could be a religious content here.

In the last S the MC has discarded all reason or doubt, and just expresses love to the dead person, as if his/her spirit could hear and be at rest, knowing that love prevails over everything.

I'm sorry if I didn't bring across this meaning properly. Will revise and see what can be done, and will use some of your highly poetical suggestions.
Thank you!
Syl ***

[Larry]

Hello Sylvia,

Glad you liked some of my suggestions and appreciate the fact that some were inappropriate due to a misunderstanding of your meaning. Your meter was a perfect IP but the bumps I mentioned had the emphasis stressed on the wrong syllable. Though miles away from being an expert, I do love a well written sonnet, as yours was. I just thought a tweak here and there might polish it a bit more.

Some answers to your questions:

Did you correct L2 for grammatical reasons? Is my English incorrect? Will change, if so.

Your English in that phrase is perfect; it was the mind picture your words left -
in shadows... you went (leaving out the modifying part of that line)

It was as though this "youth" was dressed in shadows (poeticly speaking) or had ceased to exist at that time in shadows. Again, like I said, this was most likely a misunderstanding of your meaning, thus the suggested change.

I'll try to explain at the end why I need to use 'trampled'. If there's a metrical problem, please tell me, and I'll see what I can do, OK?

trampled back to earth, blindly as permits

/-/-/, /-//- is how I am reading this line. Ron or John may have better insight into exactly where the emphasis should be placed. It just reads "bump" to me. As you said, "trampled" needs to be used, and is not the problem. The suggestion I made was in trying to smooth out that bump at the end.

I used a 'word alliteration', quite common in Spanish. But I could substitute for a synonym of time, which would also be a word allit. S.O.S...!!

Not being familiar with the Spanish language, I haven't encountered that usage style. I know you are using the first "time" as an entity and the second "time" as a moment along that line to eternity. Maybe just capitalizing the first one would work in both English and Spanish and would differentiate the two.

S4L2 - You want to keep "chains" for allit; then you might try to smooth out that line like this:

with love. Freed from chains, splendor is reborn:

with love. From chains, now freed; splendor reborn:

S4L3 - There is still a bump in that last line. I don't want to change your meaning and now am at a loss in trying to smooth the flow of that line.

Like you say, "donno"!

It it still a beautiful and moving tribute to someone lost before they had time to live.

Larry

[jgdittier]

Dear Syl,
I am a light verser who writes differently from modern pure poets. I do not pretend to have any particular expertise in modern sonnet writing and so comment here in depth because I sense you want me to.
First, My advice is to go to "sonnets" at wikipedia and read all about them so that you'll know what your readers will expect. I believe mostpoets, even modern ones, have more respect for the form of the sonnet than most other r&m verse.
Some characteristics:
14 lines
strict rhyme scheme although there are several
specific structure
iambic pentameter is usual for English sonnets
in some cases line 8 must be end-stopped
in some cases around line 9 the focus changes

As to me, I decide what style sonnet I'm writing and stick relatively closely to the specs, ignoring my broad PL. (usually)

Your rhyme scheme is abab,cdcd,efef,ef. Were it a strictly English/Shakespearean sonnet, it would end gg.
If you scan your piece here, putting alternate weak das(-) and strong dums(/) under each syllable,
you'll not want active verbs getting das nor weak words such as prepositions getting dums.

You see, I've just resorted to lecturing, an activity I want to be on neither side of. I'm not credentialled and I'm not big on accepting what "experts" claim without serious doubt.
I do hope this helps. I'll comment further if you want after you post your revision.
Cheers, Ron jgd

[Cleo_Serapis]

Hi Sylvia,

While I haven't yet read this poem, I will offer a link to sonnets and variations - a thread Merlin posted in Karnak that i find helpful. There's quite a bit in the thread as Eric carefully explains the params of 30 different sonnets. Hope you'll find it helpful too.

http://forums.mosaicmusings.net/index.php?showtopic=8927

Another is the original 'sonnet' thread at hte link below.
http://forums.mosaicmusings.net/index.php?showtopic=85

Good luck - I'll be back whne time is kind to me... (hopefully REAL soon).

Cheers
Lori

[Guest_ohsteve_*]

Sylvia, while my forte is more in the free verse form, I do like to read rhyming poetry also. I like Larry am definitly no expert and wish I sometimes could write in this form. I really like the flow of this and the dream quality it seemed to invoke. I must admit that your poetry comes through very well for someone who's first language is Spanish, I know a little German, a few words in Spanish and would not even entertain the idea of trying to translate my work into anothers language. Great Stuff Syl.
Steve

[Psyche]

Hi Larry!

So far I've managed only two tweaks to my sonnet, tho' not for lazy reasons! I've been thinking hard!
I followed your suggestion in S1L1 and also capitalized 'Time' way down.

Concerning the original style of sonnet, I now realize that when I wrote it some years back I had been reading Elizabeth Barrett Browning's "Sonnets from the Portuguese". They all have 10 syllables, although they're written in English. Investigating further, I find that in my Spanish guide to sonnets, all those with nine or more sylls (up to fourteen) are considered "major art". Eight sylls is minor. And then I received my Poem of the Day -to which I subscribe- and along came one by Robert Frost, called "Acquainted with the Night" and it also has 10 syllable lines. So I'm not particularly original...LOL... Robert Frost has re-arranged the stanzas, as well, S1 having six lines!

Anyway, I'm not trying to contest an issue at all. I wondered myself why I wrote it with 10 sylls.
I expect Shakespeare's sonnets are the paradigm, then other poets start experimenting.

So now other doubts about emphasis on words crop up in my mind. Does enjambing some lines allow for a change to weaker emphasis on the last word of a line, since it doesn't really end there, but often at the beginning of the next line?

Sorry, I'm wallowing in my own thoughts. Thank you, Larry, for your enormous help. I haven't finished yet, will study the bump in the very last L.

Cheers, Syl ***

[Psyche]

Hi Ron!
I think I've answered some of your highly useful info in my answer to Larry. Except for the rhyme scheme, which I've just checked with Elizabeth Barret Browning, and she uses abab,cdcd,efef,ef.
It's quite difficult to achieve, I can assure you...haha...

So I've been faithful to her style in all ways, except that I must still check the word emphasis issue. That's what I find most difficult, as I seldom speak English nowadays. And Larry has a Southern drawl...LOL....so what about me, in Argentina, with a Brit upbringing?!

The English poem that uses word alliteration with purposeful excess, is Walter de la Mere's "Silver".
I was forced to learn it by heart at school.... He repeats the word 'silver' 10 times, excluding the title!!

Look, I'll be back again, I have to collect my husband's pension, believe it or not. In Argentina one has to queue up for it, no accounts or cheques!

Thanks so much for helping me, I love exchanging ideas, or debates, that's the way I learn, at least.
Cheers, Syl ***

[jgdittier]

Dear Syl,
I'll admit I've read little of E.B.Browning's sonnets and so justify myself, I think, in that I'm not expert enough to comment in depth. However, were you to identify up front that the form was taken from Browning, I'd have read Browning first before commenting.
There probably are noted poets who wrote sonnets in accentual meter too and again, I'd be lost to know of them. I write all of mine in iambics or where I've wandered into a different foot, have said so up front.
Another admission, I always hope that my reader will assume I have done what I've done deliberately and not from lack of knowledge. The fact is, I'm just not as knowledgeable as there is just too much to know.
Now, your comments on writing in a second language?
Cheers, Ron jgd

[Psyche]

Dear Ron,
Oh my, I'm so sorry about that. My only excuse is that when I posted it, I had no idea that I'd written anything considered different from the norm. That's why I asked why you light versers or sonneteers thought it original! E.B.B., for all I know, is in the company of dozens of others who use that same set-up...

I know that W.S. uses 14 sylls, but I thought any amount was valid and accepted, within the aforementioned limits. I just checked one of Jorge Luis Borges's sonnets -our famous Argentine writer/poet- and he uses 11 sylls!!

My ignorance is far greater than yours, Ron, so that's why I began to investigate a little about sonnets, and came up with the stuff I wrote this morning in a bit of a rush... I believe I gave you some answers that were meant for Larry, or vice-versa.... again, my apologies. As you must have noticed, I dislike reading RULES. It's far more fun to read the good poets, IMO.

With regard to Robert Frost, I now see that he rhymes the last two lines, in spite of sticking to 10 syllables. Wow...there's a LOT out there I know nothing about. I'm so glad I've dared enter this R&M forum to motivate myself, with your prodding!

Second language: Well, yes, I've quite a lot of stuff published in Spanish, some rhyming, but not sonnets. No collections, I just figure in several anthologies. I haven't found any websites with the educational/friendly interchange we have at MM. I joined a website 'in' Spain, but they just post my stuff in bi-monthly journals. There are no forums. It's at http://www.palabrasdiversas.com
Two recent poems of mine are in Journal Nº 10, I believe. One doesn't visit websites much if they don't have forums or bulletins. And their competitions are of the International sort, where one doesn't have a chance in a million of winning anything....LOL...

All for now, Ron, thanks for your help & pointers,
Syl ***

[Psyche]

Dear Lori!
Back at last to thank you for your links. I just took a peep now....shame on me! Trouble is, I hate studying RULES.... I much prefer to read lots of poems and see what their authors did! It's more fun for a non-purist like me, but probably will never make me a good sonneteer....

There is, of course, an excellent and fun alternative, which I learnt way back from the Editor of a U.K. mag called Buzzwords, Zöe King. She included a competition whereby you could chose any poem you wished from a well-known poet, and then you were meant to write your own poem by double-spacing and creating your own poem in between, more or less following the original author's style. To avoid any copying, or plagiarism, you then had to send your own poem along with the 'mirror' piece. And that's how I won my very first prize, which was for my poem "Patagonia Lost"....!!!! Years ago...mmm....My mirror poem was a fascinating one by Vladimir Nabokov, called "Softest of Tongues", which is more about city life, and totally different from mine, which is all about vast Patagonia, as well as ecology-minded.

BTW, perhaps you could have that sort of comp here at MM, just an idea, take or toss!

At the same time, going back to "Whispers", I want to say that altho' I had read Elizabeth Barrett Browning's poems at the time, I did not pick a 'mirror poem', but just read her sonnets through. So I would be unable to post anything of hers even remotely like my own sonnet!!! BTW, hers consist of one long stanza, no divisions at all....

I hope to revise my poem again, but still haven't come up with a finale without a 'bump'...

Hugs, Syl *** ....looking forward to your crits!!

[Psyche]

Hi Steve!
It's great to have you back at MM. I hope you're well and feeling very creative!

Thank you for stopping by and reading my poem. I assure you that I'm having a really hard time with metrics. I'm sure that you could try your hand at rhyme. Perhaps you could chose a simple style, like a 2-stanza quartet, rhyming only L2 & L4 of each quartet. Don't even bother to count syllables!

I know you can do it, Steve! Come join the struggling throng...LOL...

I'm glad you enjoyed my poem. My first language is not altogether Spanish; I believe I was brought up from the cradle as bilingual, for which I thank my parents to this day. It's amazing how toddlers pick up languages effortlessly, without any grammar books to study!

Cheers,
Sylvia ***

[jgdittier]

Dear Syl,
You have opened some doors for me!
I had not read anything from de la Mare nor much from Browning.
First I must confirm that your Browning type sonnet, abbaabbacdcdcd, is a standard sonnet form, the Italian.
I was thinking you were doing a Shakespearean sonnet that's ababcdcdefefgg.
Re de la Mare's "Silver", I must put it high on my "pure poetry" list. When I read it slowly with muted sing-song its inclusion of the poetic ploys of alliteration, assonance, sibulance make it glow just as silver does. Here is a poem that was strictly composed, I venture to state that he spent much time and much paper in polishing it so.
It also is satisfyingly simple to me in its message, yet can be interpreted deeply.
I even learned that shoon means shoes.
Thanks for the lead!
Cheers, Ron jgd

[Arnfinn]

Good day, Sylvia,


Just dropped in to say hello.


I'm back to annoy people.

nnnnnnnnnn read poetry tooo.


Arnfinn...tttttttttttttttttttthe finnnnnnnnn.


John

[Psyche]

JOHN!!!! Where have ya bin hidin'?! I nearly dropped outa my seat when I saw your finnnnnnnnnnn... m'gosh, have a heart an' spill the beans, will ya?

It's our Independence Day here, 9th. July, so I can do me a double celebration...LOL...Please annoy at will, for the time being...

BOTTOMS UP!!!!
Syl ***

[Psyche]

Dear Ron,

I'm pleased I've opened a few doors for you! You've been highly helpful to me all along, glad I can do something in return.

I'm amused about your liking "Silver". As I told you, I was made to learn it by heart at school. Actually, we used to joke about it, especially the 'shoon' word, which we naturally never bothered to look up in the dictionary, and I don't believe the teacher made us. My mother was the one who knew about these things... And I enjoyed reciting, something not common nowadays, or even then, in schools.

Yes, de la Mare must have spent long hours on his poem. It's apparent simplicity hides a load of beautiful poetical ploys, as you say. The main imagery of a 'silver night scenario' is impressive. But meaning & allegory can lead one down various roads... A jewel!!

I still haven't quite finished thinking about the next revision to my above poem, perhaps I'll never be able to perfect it...mmm....

But I DO intend to post another L.L. over in that forum, so look out for it!!
Cheers, Syl ***

Dear Syl,
You have opened some doors for me!
I had not read anything from de la Mare nor much from Browning.
First I must confirm that your Browning type sonnet, abbaabbacdcdcd, is a standard sonnet form, the Italian.
I was thinking you were doing a Shakespearean sonnet that's ababcdcdefefgg.
Re de la Mare's "Silver", I must put it high on my "pure poetry" list. When I read it slowly with muted sing-song its inclusion of the poetic ploys of alliteration, assonance, sibulance make it glow just as silver does. Here is a poem that was strictly composed, I venture to state that he spent much time and much paper in polishing it so.
It also is satisfyingly simple to me in its message, yet can be interpreted deeply.
I even learned that shoon means shoes.
Thanks for the lead!
Cheers, Ron jgd