Voices in the Wind, Sestina Options

[Michelle]

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Voices in the Wind

To the land’s end, from mountain view,
my people wandered free and strong.
We followed whispers on the wind,
for season's voice then sang and spoke
her secrets to our peaceful tribe.
But Father Sky departed us.

Before, the earth had cradled us,
before the sorrow that I view.
Before, Great Spirit watched the tribe,
before death took both weak and strong,
before white man arrived and spoke
his curse of greed into the wind.

My prayers blew on the winter wind.
My dance of health could not mend us.
The healing words my father spoke
had lost their power in our view.
My curing herbs that once were strong
just eased the pain within the tribe.

Then one by one I lost my tribe,
each spirit flew like dust in wind.
The spots and fever, strange and strong,
encircled and defeated us.
So many bodies filled my view.
I held each heartache when death spoke.

A few remained but no one spoke
of being last to join the tribe.
Our people’s future dimmed from view
like lifeless leaves on autumn wind.
Great Spirit has forsaken us!
I wail resentful, sorrow strong.

Alone, the earth is sere and strong.
From me, no more words will be spoke
to turn Great Spirit’s love to us,
for they are gone; my life, my tribe.
My weeping rides a tempest wind
and mourns tomorrow’s barren view.

I heard strong voices of my tribe
that spoke beyond the tomb of wind,
“Come join us,” ….hands approach my view.  





***SESTINA
A fixed form consisting of six 6-line (usually unrhymed) stanzas in which the end words of the first stanza recur as end words of the following five stanzas in a successively rotating order and as the middle and end words of each of the lines of a concluding envoi in the form of a tercet. The usual ending word order for a sestina is as follows:
First stanza, 1- 2 - 3 - 4 - 5 - 6
Second stanza, 6 - 1 - 5 - 2 - 4 - 3
Third stanza, 3 - 6 - 4 - 1 - 2 - 5
Fourth stanza, 5 - 3 - 2 - 6 - 1 - 4
Fifth stanza, 4 - 5 - 1 - 3 - 6 - 2
Sixth stanza, 2 - 4 - 6 - 5 - 3 - 1
Concluding tercet:
middle of first line - 2, end of first line - 5
middle of second line - 4, end of second line - 3
middle if third line - 6, end of third line - 1

[Guest_Jox_*]

Hi Michelle; hope work is not too onerous this Saturday.

This poem is splendid. It is infinitly sad but splendid.

Is it personal; are these your ancestors which you describe?

I assume that you intend to finish the final verse or was it deliberatly truncated?

I think I have only one "problem" line...

to turn Great Spirit’s love to us

I wonder if the insertion of "the", as follows might not improve it?

to turn the Great Spirit’s love to us

I seldom suggest actual words but this seemed very minor. Anyway, you see if you think it scans better.

I have never seen a long(ish) poem with that structure before. I don't know how you kept to the discipline of that set of last words - well done.

Just a quick thought - and sorry if I'm treating you like you were daft - I'm not; we've all done such things - but I hope you are keeping a copy of your poems (you looked to be writing this one actually on the forum text editor, from your work comment). It would be a great shame to lose them.

I shall look forward to the remaining lines - if there are any - and I must say that it is good to see another of your poems here.

Thank you, Jox.

[Michelle]

Hello Jox!

It's always a pleasure to see your name on my thread.
Thank you for your kind words about this poem.
You are delightful.

As I understand the sestina (and if I am wrong I will revise)
the seventh stanza is three lines using two of the line endings
in each line - one in the middle, one at the end.  The form is
displayed here in the poetic forms forum.  I won't copy it here
unless it is problematic for anyone.  I found the 7th was the
hardest of all the stanzas.

I have self-imposed the requirement of iambic tetrameter
to my lines.  Your suggestion is wonderful, but it would
add an extra syllable - and I believe disrupt the meter.
Since this is a voice poem of someone whom English
would be their second language - I'm hoping that the
omitted articles will slide by.  

Yes, I have Cherokee blood in my veins.  
I think the story is a very common one
to the native American people, when the
white race came to colonize.

I thank you for reading and replying to this
poem.  I fear you may be the only one to do so.  (smile)



Thank you again, Jox.


Michelle

[Guest_Jox_*]

Hello Michelle,

I must say, both you and your poetry always make it a great pleasure to commentate on your work. Thank you again for your warm welcome.

Thank you also for introducing me to yet another poetry form - I never realised there were so many! In particular I did not realise that the last verse (stanza) had to be three lines; seems a very tight discipline and you met it very well. I am not surprised that you found the final verse the toughest to compose.

Digression: Now here’s an interesting, very sad, yet ultimately optimistic, thought. Some of your ancestors were Cherokee and there is a possibility that some of mine were the ancestors of those colonizers. Yet, here we are today, trying to help each other whilst being thousands of miles apart. I also have a little Spanish blood which makes me think of the Conquistadors of South America. The human race is a strange contradiction of viciousness and kindness - but you and I, generally, seem to be lucky enough to be living where kindness prevails for us; if not for all humans.

I hope and believe that your fears that I shall be the only one to comment on this excellent poem are misjudged. I know that others will greatly enjoy it also... though collecting comments can take time!

So, thank you again and, until the next time,
Cheerio, Jox.

[Guest__*]

Michelle,

I am a little hazy on a sestina, can you please let me know the params? I ask this because, I dont want to crit and say...well this line-I have problems with...when it's suppose to be that way...:)

Thanks,
Traci

[Michelle]

Hi Traci,

I posted the parameters below the poem.
I look forward to your comments and suggestions.

I am self-imposing iambic tetrameter parameters to the lines.

Michelle

[Guest__*]

Dear Michelle

Well, you have taken me on quite a journey. And I don't even mean the poem's content, yet !

Seeing it a long poem, I skipped, read your params first, then the answers and your responses, before finally attempting the poem itself.

My first inclination was to say, yeah, all these rules, 165243 etc etc, why bother, but the Qs and your As helped fill me in, so I then started reading the poem.

I have to tell you, I'm HOOKED. There is obviously difficulty, but in overcoming, you are producing one helluva piece. I mean, how did you choose the 6 end words, and as you wrote on, did you have to keep changing them ?

One game I might try is to write down almost any 6 words, and damn well write a good poem into those 6 !

Now to the poem. No crits at all in S1 & 2, on S3 I offer (for you to chuck if you will) :

My prayers blew on the winter wind.
My dance of health did not mend us. *could not mend ?
The healing words, my father spoke, *no middle comma, it's one thought
had lost their power in our view.
My curing herbs that once were strong
just eased the pain within the tribe. *I have a personal thing against "just". Perhaps "bare eased the pain within the tribe" ?

S4, I held their heartaches* when death spoke. I think plural, ref to bodieS ?

S5, I wail, resentful sorrow strong. * No middle comma ? as this breaks up the rythm

S6
Alone, the ground is harsh and strong. * "earth is sere" poss smoother ?
From me, no more words will be spoke * no words more will be spoke ? smoother
to turn Great Spirit’s love to us, * add comma at end
for they are gone; my life, my tribe.
My weeping rides a tempest wind
to mourn tomorrow’s barren view. * and mourns ?

S7
I hear strong voices of my tribe
that spoke beyond the womb of wind, * present tense to match line 1 : speak
*possibly "tomb of wind" ?
“Come join us,” ….hands approach my view.  *"Join us" as hands approach my view.

Dear Michelle, having now had to delve deeply to understand (and crit), I stand in awe at your creation. I even feel like weeping for your wonderful people, and the tragedy that overcame them. WELL DONE for the IMPINGEMENT you art has created in me !

Have a look at all my little nits,factually that are as nothing compared to your great work, but one or two might smooth a line or augment your awesome work, or, indeed, not !

Love
Alan (stunned)  :smart:

[Michelle]

Dear Alan,

thank you so much.  Your suggestions a wonderful and very welcome.  Your kind words are also heartening to this aspiring poet.  Thank you very much.

My prayers blew on the winter wind.
My dance of health did not mend us. *could not mend ? excellent
The healing words, my father spoke, *no middle comma, it's one thought  -also good - thank you
had lost their power in our view.
My curing herbs that once were strong
just eased the pain within the tribe. *I have a personal thing against "just". Perhaps "bare eased the pain within the tribe" ?  I may stick with 'just' - it weighs lighter that 'bare' for meter

S4, I held their heartaches* when death spoke. I think plural, ref to bodieS ?- you've got me thinking here - what of 'I hold each heartache'?

S5, I wail, resentful sorrow strong. * No middle comma ? as this breaks up the rythm -   hmmm what of 'I wail resentful, sorrow strong' ?  omitting on comma - resentful modifies wail

S6
Alone, the ground is harsh and strong. * "earth is sere" poss smoother ?  ohh I like that
From me, no more words will be spoke * no words more will be spoke ? smoother --  I think the meter goes out that way
to turn Great Spirit’s love to us, * add comma at end  -  good idea
for they are gone; my life, my tribe.
My weeping rides a tempest wind
to mourn tomorrow’s barren view. * and mourns ?  -- yes - excellent

S7
I hear strong voices of my tribe
that spoke beyond the womb of wind, * present tense to match line 1 : speak
*possibly "tomb of wind" ?  - I like 'tomb'  -  this is my problem I have to use 'spoke' for form - I was trying to create an image of them speaking with a time lapse before hearing - but maybe I should use 'heard' in the previous line?
“Come join us,” ….hands approach my view.  *"Join us" as hands approach my view.[/color] -- meter wouldn't be iambic  - maybe a two syllable word, second syllable stressed, that means 'come' -  I will have to ponder


Alan, this was a magnificent critique.  I thank you so much for the large amount of time and energy that you've given this poem.  I think I owe you a big one!  Thank you again, Alan.


Michelle

[Guest__*]

Dear M

It was an honour to delve into this one, so no debt owed ! Glad you like some of my thoughts, and I see you are clearly on your way to finalising, so more power to your tribe !

Love
Alan

PS I love critiquing when it's like this.

[Michelle]

Thank you again, dear Alan.

I have edited many of the suggestions that you have offered.  I don't think there is too much more I can do (at this time, anyway).  I am very thankful for your help - I wouldn't have done a thing with this if it weren't for you.  I like the edits very much.  I'll lay this one to bed, unless someone has more for me to ponder.  

Thank you SO much, Alan.


Michelle

[Guest__*]

Dear Michelle

It haas been my pleaseure all the way thru !

To (mis)quote the famous poet :

From me, no more words will be spoke
to turn Great Poet’s words to mine .....

Love
Alan

[Guest_Dove_*]

Michelle--

First off I would like to thank you for writing a piece following this form. I haven't seen someone write a sestina in a long time. And I couldn't remember the form, nor figure it out from online sites so I couldn't attempt it myself. You did a beyond excellent job, because I know from experience how tricky these can be. I could feel the despair here and the last three lines were to die for (no pun intended)! Also I thought that the tercet was only using the last word of the last 3 lines in the last sentence but you cleared that up for me, too.  

i put a facey besides lines that i esp. liked. great work here!

To land’s end, from mountain view,
my people wandered free and strong.
We followed whispers on the wind,
for season's voice then sang and spoke
her secrets to our peaceful tribe.                
But Father Sky departed us.                      

comma at the end of L5? and start next line with lower case. i don't like starting sentences with "but".

Before, the earth had cradled us,                
before the sorrow that I view.                      
Before, Great Spirit watched the tribe,
before death took both weak and strong,
before white man arrived and spoke
his curse of greed into the wind.

why the first comma is line one? since you don't have a comma after "before" in line two, it makes it sound like you're sectioning out "the earth had cradled us" and doesn't flow right. same with the whole stanza. I really don't like how this part flowed. There isn't a complete sentence in the whole stanza.

My prayers blew on the winter wind.
My dance of health could not mend us.
The healing words my father spoke,
had lost their power in our view.
My curing herbs that once were strong          
just eased the pain within the tribe.              
                     
if you use a comma in L3, then shouldn't you use one at the end of L5?
                                       
Then one by one I lost my tribe,
each spirit flew like dust in wind.
The spots and fever, strange and strong,
encircled and defeated us.
So many bodies filled my view.
I held each heartache when death spoke. :pharoah2

A few remained but no one spoke
of being last to join the tribe.
Our people’s future dimmed from view
like lifeless leaves on autumn wind. :pharoah2
Great Spirit has forsaken us! :pharoah2
I wail resentful, sorrow strong. :pharoah2

Alone, the earth is sere and strong.
From me, no more words will be spoke
to turn Great Spirit’s love to us,        [i like it without the "the"
for they are gone; my life, my tribe.
My weeping rides a tempest wind
and mourns tomorrow’s barren view. :pharoah2

I heard strong voices of my tribe
that spoke beyond the tomb of wind,
“Come join us,” ….hands approach my view.

the tercet is a masterpiece in itself!  

[Michelle]

Hi Dove and thank you for your comments and suggestion.

I'm glad that this thread helped refine the parameters for you.  Now, I'l be expecting one of these you know.  

Your words are encouraging.  Thank you so much for pointing to the the things you felt worked.  I realize this is a job to critique, and I appreciate your effort. (I owe you one   )  

I will address your exceptions:

To land’s end, from mountain view,
my people wandered free and strong.
We followed whispers on the wind,
for season's voice then sang and spoke
her secrets to our peaceful tribe.                
But Father Sky departed us.                      

comma at the end of L5? and start next line with lower case. i don't like starting sentences with "but".

I have no problem with starting a sentence with 'but'.  I'm not sure what the rules are, but I have seen done and it doesn't cause me any problems - though I don't know the rules pertaining to it.  I have said not to start sentences with 'and' before.  Since then, I have not only seen it done, but have done it myself.  It does have it's uses.  I want this a distint sentence set apart from the rest.  In my mind  L3,L4 & L5 go together - speaking of the way it was.  Whereas L5 explains, by itself, why it is no longer true.

Before, the earth had cradled us,                
before the sorrow that I view.                      
Before, Great Spirit watched the tribe,
before death took both weak and strong,
before white man arrived and spoke
his curse of greed into the wind.

why the first comma is line one? since you don't have a comma after "before" in line two, it makes it sound like you're sectioning out "the earth had cradled us" and doesn't flow right. same with the whole stanza. I really don't like how this part flowed. There isn't a complete sentence in the whole stanza.
"Before," means before the current time - while "before..."no comma is a propositon to modify the sentences with descriptive phrases.  There are two sentences in the stanza, as I see it.  Those being (raw bones)

'earth had cradled us'
'Great spirit watched the tribe'


My prayers blew on the winter wind.
My dance of health could not mend us.
The healing words my father spoke,
had lost their power in our view.
My curing herbs that once were strong          
just eased the pain within the tribe.              
                   
if you use a comma in L3, then shouldn't you use one at the end of L5?

I don't think it is mandatory to that both lines are puntuated the same, but in this case I think I want to take away the comma in L3.  Thank you.

Thank you again Dove.  You are great!


Michelle

[Guest_Pygmalion_*]

hi michelle,

you have truly constructed a beautiful piece of poetry.  i am in awe.  

i also have cherokee blood.  it's pretty far back, my great-great-great grandfather on my mother's side.  but i was inducted into the alabama cherokee tribe last year.  my cherokee name is, "tiny sparrow", which i'd have to look up to give it to you in cherokee.

thank you for sharing this with us.  it is a true unique piece of art.

deb

[Michelle]

Hi deb (Tiny Sparrow),

Thank you for your comments.  My grandmother was 1/4 Cherokee, so that would make me 1/16 I think.  My awakened to poetry and native american sprirituality simultaneously.  This is the only poem about native american heritage that I've written though.  In February, I will celebrate my third birthday as a poet.  Perhaps I will be led to another verse.  For some reason I have visions of a white buffalo woman.  When I understand what that means, I shall try another.

Thank you again Tiny Sparrow.


Michelle

[Guest_Jox_*]

Hi, Michelle, Deb, et al...

May I revert to English teacher for a moment, if I can help?

"And" and "But" are both conjunctions. In t'other words they are both there to join parts of sentences. It would make no sense to end a sentence with them and, in traditional grammar, it makes no sense to start one with them either. But sometimes today, one wishes to break things down to shorter sentences. And there has been a change in thinking.

However...

Most grammar rules apply only to prose. Poets throughout all the history of poetry have ignored such rules (well, actually, poetry pre-dates most of them, anyway). Everything is very much a matter of personal taste in poetry (and fitting in with any chosen format). Starting lines with capitals, lower case or a mixture - personal taste. Rhyming - personal taste (Forms excepted). Etc.

However 2...

Even in prose the "But" and "And" rules are disappearing fast. No novelist no would feel bound by them and, if John LeCarre (The World's best modern novelist in my humble opinion) can be so cavalier as to start paragraphs with "And", then anything goes.

So Michelle and Deb are both right (happily for me - I don't have to disagree with anyone). There were rules but now personal taste is the guidance. I suppose, as with all literature, say what you wish to say and say it as well as you can to best communicate with your readers is the real regulator.

Here endth the lesson. I shall revert to being a non-teacher.

J.

(Oh by the way, if anyone wishes to disagree - no problem - PM me if you wish).

[Cleo_Serapis]

Michelle!

What an awe inspiring piece! Truly a winner on all counts (as all our members tiles are of course)!  :cool:

I've still to tackle 'sestina', but you managed to make it look so simple!  :detective:  :sun:

Just wanted to stop in say, "I read and I very much enjoyed!"

Cheers!
~Cleo  :pharoah2

[Michelle]

Thank you Cleo for stopping in to comment.

I don't get to see to much of you.

I bet maintaining MM is a handful,
but you do a terrific job.


Michelle

[Cleo_Serapis]

Thank you Cleo for stopping in to comment.

I don't get to see to much of you.

I bet maintaining MM is a handful,
but you do a terrific job.


Michelle

Teehee, thank you!  :blush21:

I'm ALWAYS lurking.....the halls of MM, so it's likely you'll see me "somewhere" but with all these posts, it sure IS hard to get to them!

What a lovely piece this one is!  :viking:

Tootles!
Cleo

[Cybele]

Hello Michelle,

Thank you for your comments.  My grandmother was 1/4 Cherokee, so that would make me 1/16 I think.  My awakened to poetry and native american sprirituality simultaneously.  This is the only poem about native american heritage that I've written though.  In February, I will celebrate my third birthday as a poet.  Perhaps I will be led to another verse.  For some reason I have visions of a white buffalo woman.  When I understand what that means, I shall try another.

Being English, I have absolutely no Indian blood but I feel a great affinity to North American Indians. I have only written one poem so far on the subject like you, Michelle, but I am very moved by the legends. One especially, called 'Morning Star' is calling to me.  I'd love to write it as a poem.

Voices in the Wind is very moving and emotive. I came here very late and everyone has helped with crits.  Suffice it to say that, for me, this is a very special poem, which I will now copy to hard drive if you don't mind, so that I may read it whenever I want.

Wonderful work Michelle

Love

Grace   have a fish!