New Pope, Wizard Award ~ A Missed opportunity Options

[Guest_Don_*]

Hi Again Jox,
Hi Don,

Thanks very much for your visit and your comments - both much appreciated.
You are most welcome, but remember you started it.
>>I read some comments and decided to cut to the chase.  I basically agree with Toumai's review, because she said it first and said it well.  I agree with chemist copying isotope, they are no more original than church doctrine.  I think "slope" is lost as is.  Perhaps the typical pitfall of being rhyme driven. Along with the inflexibility of the terseness the direction of "slope" is questionable as to gradient up or down, straight up or down, or flat horizontal.

Well, actually part of the reason for using “slope” (in addition to the rhyme) was so readers could think of slopes to Heaven and Hell and slippery slopes etc. So I’m rather pleased you saw the various possibilities - thank you.
In thanking me you send tribute to my mathematics indoctrination.
In general, I agree with you about rhyme - I seldom use it.
To my chagrin, I wish you would apply your skill in this often challenging area.  For instance avoiding rhyme driven.
>>I liked to think "hope" was meant for the inflexible system incorporated hope of betterment.  Your ending of no hope I think is too final and too judgemental.

Ah well that is the benefit of writing, rather than reading - one can shove one’s ideas at people! I really have no hope in this Pope - but, if I’m wrong I shall (as I’ve mentioned before) be delighted. I am reading Terry Prachett at the moment (“Going Postal”) and he makes the Pandora point, too.
An associate works for U.S. postal service, very union oriented, and has cleverly honed possibility and threat of "going postal" to a fine edge to manipulate his superiors.
>>The entire Christian motif has been anti-female for centuries.  In ignorance I attribute it to perpetuation of ancient Greek influence with their bias against women as evident in their Pandora mythologies.
I was thinking of the most influential Greek Septigenerian (spell) Bible, and Golden Greek era as arbitrary beginning of Western thought. Both a tad after poor Pandora.
LOL! I just mentioned her. You’re right about the centuries - but not just Christian, as Nina mentioned - Islam, Judaism and many other religions. Having said that, more modern Christian religions - such as Anglicanism and Methodism are improving greatly.
History and literature record several tribes and times of female social dominance and equality. Current improvement is another reoccurance.  Hopefully permanent.

>>The terseness like quick jabs is very effective.  The theme is perhaps too heavy with bashing.  Are the Catholics alone in perpetuating a failing system? Is it and others really failing or does hope apply for a temporary setback or dip?

Catholics per se are not my target. I know many fine Catholics - they are entitled to worship howsoever they choose (fine or not!)
Same here, but it is hard to percieve you are pro or neutral Catholic attacking their basic structure.  An outsider critical of doctrine is likely to be assumed a foe.
My target is the political Roman Catholic upper hierarchy. All those Cardinals appointed by JP2 and thinking in that way. Plus, of course, the “top” ex Cardinal - the Pope, himself.

I cannot see a temporary set back because I have never had much respect for the upper echelon of the RC Church. In Medieval times we had the Inquisition, then corruption and wealth-acquisition; in WWII how did they oppose the Nazis? (They didn’t - quite in contrast to many individual priests, nuns and monks who did). One could say they are better now than before - but a long way behind looking after their flock.
Adversity tests each and all.  Who on earth can predict accurately reactions to survive or prosper?  Afterward, one must ask, "who are we to judge?" Of course, we do regardless.
>>Your poem is effective anti-catholic side of the debate.

Thanks for your kindness Don - but I am not anti-Catholic. Really, I’m not. I don’t think I could have worked for and, sometime, been a housemaster at a RC School for fifteen years if I had been anti-Catholic. But I ask myself, how are the top men serving Catholics and the rest of the World? My only answer is “badly.”

I personally am an atheist - so I have no need to be against people who practice their religion - I have nothing to convert them to (“Follow me to... nowhere”). In fact, I rather envy many Catholics - devout ones see life after death - I would rather like to believe in that, myself. All I can look forward to is not seeing the daises which I hope to push up. Yup, I’m willing to become a Catholic myself, if it comes with new improved instant belief - it works with atheists or your money back.

So, no, nothing anti-Catholics from me. Sorry to confuse. (I think many protestants are anti-Catholic though).

>>Now you are apprised of what little I think as well as how little. Except for the slope and hope, it stands well poetically with me.

Thank you, Don. Maybe the hope slid off the slope - which was pointing downwards?

Your poem doesn't claim you are anything but a writer.  My habit is to exclude author from inside the work. The leader follower, speaker listener relationship is that the first touts one thing as the second interprets another.  

James.

See ya later, Don

[JustDaniel]

Certainly an engaging and pointed piece, James.  I've never paid much attention to the doings of the Pope, but it's certainly interesting to see so many folks become worked up over the old gentleman!

I just switched over from the free verse forum to here to see if my eyes would work better... but alas, they're about to give out.  I'll catch ya on the other side o' the sun!  

Lightly bowin' out, Daniel  :sun:

[Guest_Jox_*]

Hi Daniel,

Thanks for your visit and comments.

Hope you feel better soon.

James.

[jgdittier]

Dear Jox,
I've been lying low, a little queezy regarding the seriousness of the topic you've dared to address..
We once mentioned political correctness. Over here it is stifling, but even before it came to demean all reality, religion has been a topic only whispered about and only to the choir.
You get points from me both for baring your breast and speaking your mind!!!
As to the verse, I praise it highly for its imagination, expression, terseness. It and its comments have made for the whole thread to be a classic. I suppose even those who disagree with your content would like to have the gumption to post a rejoinder.
Poetry, for me is almost entirely to entertain, as I write light verse. Yours trumphs, for it is a discussion piece. It may bring out in readers some disagreements, but if they are discussed in a friendly manner by intelligent debaters, God can only smile!
Nicely done!
Cheers,     jgd

[Guest_Nina_*]

Hi James, Ron

It may bring out in readers some disagreements, but if they are discussed in a friendly manner by intelligent debaters, God can only smile!
Well said Ron.  I think these words should be written in huge letters and posted on every message board on the internet.

Nina

[Guest_Jox_*]

Hi Nina,

Well observed.

James.

[Guest_Jox_*]

Hi Ron,

Thanks very much for your visit and for your kind comments.

>>I've been lying low, a little queasy regarding the seriousness of the topic you've dared to address..

Ah, that's me - I often (usually) go for “serious” (I take it you mean political topics) - mind you, I'm not the only one. Fran and Nina and Mike are prone to it, too - must be the cold air over here.

>>We once mentioned political correctness. Over here it is stifling, but even before it came to demean all reality, religion has been a topic only whispered about and only to the choir.

OK, I admit it must be easier for me. Britain is one of the most secular countries in the World. The USA is far, far more religious than the UK, as a whole. Compare speeches by George Bush and Tony Blair. Bush often refers to God. Blair is also a devout Christian but he was strongly persuaded by his advisors not to mention God in even one speech because it would antagonise voters. The biggest church here is the Church of England (CofE). On a Sunday it is now thought to have considerably fewer than a million worshippers (UK population: 60 million). So there is not a religious atmosphere here.

>>You get points from me both for baring your breast and speaking your mind!!!

That is an image I think most people would prefer to escape, so I’ll move on...

>>As to the verse, I praise it highly for its imagination, expression, terseness.

Thank you very much, Ron.

>> It and its comments have made for the whole thread to be a classic. I suppose even those who disagree with your content would like to have the gumption to post a rejoinder.

I would welcome it. Most certainly; I love political debate and enjoy others’ opinions. Agatha has already offered some different views.

>>Poetry, for me is almost entirely to entertain, as I write light verse.

And that is no lesser poetry. The ability to make people smile and happy with writing is a great gift - more welcomed than many of my depressing works!

>> Yours triumphs, for it is a discussion piece.

Again, thank you very much.

>> It may bring out in readers some disagreements, but if they are discussed in a friendly manner by intelligent debaters, God can only smile!

Nina picked up on this final comment very eloquently, so I’ll only say that I agree with you and her (save the God smiling part).

>>Nicely done!

Thank you very much, indeed, Ron. Much appreciated indeed.

James.

[Guest_Jox_*]

Hi Don,

>>Thanks very much for your visit and your comments - both much appreciated.
>>You are most welcome, but remember you started it.

Me? (Thank you).

>>Well, actually part of the reason for using “slope” (in addition to the rhyme) was so readers could think of slopes to Heaven and Hell and slippery slopes etc. So I’m rather pleased you saw the various possibilities - thank you.
>>In thanking me you send tribute to my mathematics indoctrination.

Well, we’re all a combination of nature and nurture.

>>In general, I agree with you about rhyme - I seldom use it.
>>To my chagrin, I wish you would apply your skill in this often challenging area. For instance avoiding rhyme driven.

Thank you for the compliment. I seldom find writing fun. If I did I might use more rhyme. However, I often feel I have a message to convey. One could argue that rhyme might communicate it better but I’m not convinced (as a reader, rhyme seldom appeals to me). So I prefer simple free verse; I find it speaks more directly. I do quite like half-rhyme but that is very skilful and I’ve only read Wilfred Owen who does it convincingly so much of the time.

>>I liked to think "hope" was meant for the inflexible system incorporated hope of betterment. Your ending of no hope I think is too final and too judgemental.
>>Ah well that is the benefit of writing, rather than reading - one can shove one’s ideas at people! I really have no hope in this Pope - but, if I’m wrong I shall (as I’ve mentioned before) be delighted. I am reading Terry Prachett at the moment (“Going Postal”) and he makes the Pandora point, too.

>>An associate works for U.S. postal service, very union oriented, and has cleverly honed possibility and threat of "going postal" to a fine edge to manipulate his superiors.

I didn't understand this. Then, I remembered that the person who gave me the book told me that, in the US, “going postal” means going mad. If that is correct, I understand. Thanks, A very ironic story.

>>The entire Christian motif has been anti-female for centuries. In ignorance I attribute it to perpetuation of ancient Greek influence with their bias against women as evident in their Pandora mythologies.
>>I was thinking of the most influential Greek Septuagenarian (spell) Bible, and Golden Greek era as arbitrary beginning of Western thought. Both a tad after poor Pandora.

My mythology is poor but I think I see what you mean.

>>LOL! I just mentioned her. You’re right about the centuries - but not just Christian, as Nina mentioned - Islam, Judaism and many other religions. Having said that, more modern Christian religions - such as Anglicanism and Methodism are improving greatly.
>>History and literature record several tribes and times of female social dominance and equality. Current improvement is another reoccurrence. Hopefully permanent.

Yes - Amazons etc. Here, we had a female warrior queen in Roman times (Boudecca). (spelling, too!) But this should not mask the general repression of women throughout the ages.

>>The terseness like quick jabs is very effective. The theme is perhaps too heavy with bashing. Are the Catholics alone in perpetuating a failing system? Is it and others really failing or does hope apply for a temporary setback or dip?
>>Catholics per se are not my target. I know many fine Catholics - they are entitled to worship howsoever they choose (fine or not!

Same here, but it is hard to perceive you are pro or neutral Catholic attacking their basic structure. An outsider critical of doctrine is likely to be assumed a foe.

I am not pro-Catholic. I suppose I am neutral, yes. However, I am proud to be considered a foe of the Roman Catholic top hierarchy - I think it evil. It has been responsible for a great deal of death and other misery throughout its existence. It about time change quickened. (When the RC Church held sway, I would have been arrested, tortured and murdered. They can’t do that now but some of their policies are tantamount to similar treatment, especially of millions of Africans).

>>My target is the political Roman Catholic upper hierarchy. All those Cardinals appointed by JP2 and thinking in that way. Plus, of course, the “top” ex Cardinal - the Pope, himself.
>>I cannot see a temporary set back because I have never had much respect for the upper echelon of the RC Church. In Medieval times we had the Inquisition, then corruption and wealth-acquisition; in WWII how did they oppose the Nazis? (They didn’t - quite in contrast to many individual priests, nuns and monks who did). One could say they are better now than before - but a long way behind looking after their flock.

Adversity tests each and all. Who on earth can predict accurately reactions to survive or prosper?

Sorry, you’ve lost me there, I’m afraid, Don.

>>Afterward, one must ask, "who are we to judge?" Of course, we do regardless.

Writers have an absolute duty (in my opinion) to oppose tyranny and to speak what they see as the truth. (I don’t believe in absolute truths). We are not the final judges: we are putting the case before the people; they will judge. (I don’t know if I am brave enough to oppose tyranny always - i suppose not but I try to do a little work in the area from the safety of the UK).

>>Your poem doesn't claim you are anything but a writer.

I’m not even sure it claims that! My real label says “Political Economist.”

>> My habit is to exclude author from inside the work. The leader follower, speaker listener relationship is that the first touts one thing as the second interprets another.

Sorry, I’m being dense but I’m a tad lost there too, I’m afraid.

Anyway, thanks Don for the discussion - very much appreciated.

James.

[AMETHYST]

Hi James,

Fortunately, I read poetry mostly keeping the craft and over all pleasure value as my guide, which allows me to enjoy much more poetry even if I am not in agreement and not knowledgable of the subject.

I think the rhymes through out are fantastic, as well as the fresh and newness of the diction used. The short/quick lines gave a punch like feeling to the poem. Quick; almost jablike, which I thought worked quite well with the working from 'hope' to 'no hope'

Hugs, Liz

[Guest_Jox_*]

Hi Liz,

Thanks very much for visiting and commentating - I know you don't have as much time on MM as you'd line so I especially appreciate it.

>>Fortunately, I read poetry mostly keeping the craft and over all pleasure value as my guide, which allows me to enjoy much more poetry even if I am not in agreement and not knowledgeable of the subject.

Understood, Liz. But I never mind people disagreeing with my stance - I welcome it, in fact. If I write on issues which might hold disagreement, I think others' have every right to disagree with me. Such is the political dialogue (which the vast majority of my writing is about).

>>I think the rhymes through out are fantastic,

Thank you very much.

>> as well as the fresh and newness of the diction used.

I'm especially pleased with that - I criticise others for using cliches and am, therefore, terrified of using them myself - which, of course, I do sometimes.

>> The short/quick lines gave a punch like feeling to the poem. Quick; almost jab-like, which I thought worked quite well with the working from 'hope' to 'no hope.'

Again, that you Liz.

>>Hugs, Liz

Liz, I regret the reasons that you're around MM more these days but, if those could disappear, I'd be delighted you are. It is great to inter-act with you more these days.

Thank you very much for this.

All the best.

James.

[Cleo_Serapis]

Congrats James on your wizard award winning tile AND new title of Ornate Oracle (our very first)!

Well done!

~Cleo :)

[Guest_Nina_*]

Hi James

Congratulations on your wizard award (20 awards now most impressive)

I did enjoy the discussions that ensued from this poem.

Nina

[Guest_Jox_*]

Hi Lori and Nina,

Thank you both for your kind congratulations; most appreciated.

I enjoyed this discussions, too.

J.

[Guest_Toumai_*]

James, Wow, and congratulations - brill achievement        



Fran

[Guest_Jox_*]

Thanks, Fran, Much appreciated.

J.

[Aggiel]

Congratulations - James. You deserve this award.




Aggiel        

[Guest_Jox_*]

Hi Agatha,

Thank you - and thank you for your very helpful and interesting contributions.

Most appreciated.

James.

[Aggiel]

Hi James,

I am happy I have played a small part in your poem

All the best



Aggiel

[Guest_Jox_*]

Hi Agatha, Thanks very much

(though a larger part than you allow yourself credit for)

All the best, james.