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Cleo_Serapis
post Dec 29 03, 20:44
Post #1


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Real Name: Lori Kanter
Writer of: Poetry & Prose
Referred By:Imhotep



Hi all!  cali.gif

Let's start our first interactive class with an abbreviated definition of poetry characteristics:

Poetry communicates and conveys feelings in a concentrated form. It uses language to create sound effects and word pictures, to set up associations in the reader’s mind, and to make striking comparisons through figures of speech.

Jox's take: Poetry conveys emotions and ideas in a concentrated form. It employs language creatively, both as imagery and for its tonal qualities. It is the purest form of writing.



In our first class, we will read a few lines from a famous poem.

The exercise is twofold:
  • First, write down your first image and emotional reaction.
  • Second, write a few lines with your own feeling and figure of speech to match the lines of the famous poem.
From the works of Alice Meynell, "Builders of Ruins", first stanza:

We build with strength and deep tower wall
that shall be shattered thus and thus.
And fair and great are court and hall,
but how fair--this is not for us,
who know the lack that lurks in all.


To view entire poem, click here.

Things to keep in mind:
  • Is there a set metered pattern (of stressed and unstressed syllables)?
  • Is there a set rhyming pattern (repetition of similar sounds)?
  • Is there a set rhythmic pattern (the sense of movement attributable to the pattern of stressed and unstressed syllables)?
Let's start now. Please ADD REPLY to this tile.
GOOD LUCK!

~Cleo  cheer.gif


·······IPB·······

"It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step into the Road, and if you don't keep your feet, there is no knowing where you might be swept off to." ~ J.R.R Tolkien, The Lord of the Rings

Collaboration feeds innovation. In the spirit of workshopping, please revisit those threads you've critiqued to see if the author has incorporated your ideas, or requests further feedback from you. In addition, reciprocate with those who've responded to you in kind.

"I believe it is the act of remembrance, long after our bones have turned to dust, to be the true essence of an afterlife." ~ Lorraine M. Kanter

Nominate a poem for the InterBoard Poetry Competition by taking into careful consideration those poems you feel would best represent Mosaic Musings. For details, click into the IBPC nomination forum. Did that poem just captivate you? Nominate it for the Faery award today! If perfection of form allured your muse, propose the Crown Jewels award. For more information, click here!

"Worry looks around, Sorry looks back, Faith looks up." ~ Early detection can save your life.

MM Award Winner
 
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Guest_Jox_*
post Dec 30 03, 05:19
Post #2





Guest






Hi Cleo,

Good luck with this new idea.

We build with strength and deep tower wall
That shall be shattered thus and thus.
And fair and great are court and hall,
But how fair--this is not for us,
Who know the lack that lurks in all.


First, write down your first image and emotional reaction.

In my ignorance, I had never heard of this poem nor, indeed, the poetess. So I am better educated already!

Image One - Literal and not so. ..

Literal - a thick-walled strong, baronial castle where good living combine with the ever-present danger of attack and siege. I have been to many of these castles - some in tact and many ruins. This verse makes me think of the fine line betwixt great riches and great dangers. One month the Lord, his family and entourage are feasting; the next they are being besieged by the King's men; they then are starving. There are many such castles in Wales which are ruined after their inhabitants tried to stop the English / Anglo-Saxons from invading. A testament to bravery and man's ultimate desire for freedom.

Metaphorical - The same fine line between the good life and the bad death is applicable in a multitude of situations. We all sit under Damocles’ sword in one way or another and this verse illustrates that. Nuclear war, famine, disease, road accidents, one could continue ad mortem! (Well, one could try!)

Image Two - Literal and not so...

Literal - The displaced, the disadvantaged, the dispossessed and the disenfranchised people, peering in at the haves and their rulers. This could have been written by Karl Marx; for it certainly has a strong Marxist message.

Metaphorical - The understanding that physical wealth is but one facet of man and that, despite that, he may be lacking in very many other human forms of wealth. The knowledge that we are all inadequate in so many ways. The understanding that, despite the great power and wealth that these men command they are, in some ways, just as frail and vulnerable as any human being.  The walls that shatter might simply be someone piercing that vulnerability... those people appear strong and resolute - but they are never invulnerable.

Please forgive me if I leave the poem there. I shall watch this thread with interest and may comment but personally I wouldn’t wish to match that verse (or anyone’s). Thanks for the opportunity to reflect on this though. I thought the message excellent although I did not actually care for the verse itself.

James.

PS I agree with your definition of poetry - or whose ever it is - but to it I would add "ideas"... thus my own take on it would be something like...

Poetry conveys emotions and ideas in a concentrated form. It employs language creatively, both as imagery and for its tonal qualities. It is the purest form of writing.

 
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Cleo_Serapis
post Dec 30 03, 06:07
Post #3


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Real Name: Lori Kanter
Writer of: Poetry & Prose
Referred By:Imhotep



What an excellent commentary James! This is wonderful. Good to get the mind thinking of how just a few words CAN indeed paint a thousand pictures (kind of like my new phrase, "A word is worth a thousand pictures." laugh.gif

YOu may not wish to write a follow on line or two, HOWEVER, can you spot a meter, rhyme and/or rhythm here?

Cheers!
~Cleo


·······IPB·······

"It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step into the Road, and if you don't keep your feet, there is no knowing where you might be swept off to." ~ J.R.R Tolkien, The Lord of the Rings

Collaboration feeds innovation. In the spirit of workshopping, please revisit those threads you've critiqued to see if the author has incorporated your ideas, or requests further feedback from you. In addition, reciprocate with those who've responded to you in kind.

"I believe it is the act of remembrance, long after our bones have turned to dust, to be the true essence of an afterlife." ~ Lorraine M. Kanter

Nominate a poem for the InterBoard Poetry Competition by taking into careful consideration those poems you feel would best represent Mosaic Musings. For details, click into the IBPC nomination forum. Did that poem just captivate you? Nominate it for the Faery award today! If perfection of form allured your muse, propose the Crown Jewels award. For more information, click here!

"Worry looks around, Sorry looks back, Faith looks up." ~ Early detection can save your life.

MM Award Winner
 
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Guest_Jox_*
post Dec 30 03, 11:50
Post #4





Guest






Cleo...

Thank you very much. Think you ought to have left it there! Your new phrase whimiscal but it is the way in which the words are used that matters; not the words per se. Anyway...

Well you did ask but I think you asked the wrong person.

Well, I seldom read as most people and usually can never identify such things... I have no sense of rhythm myself - can’t even spot it in music I’m afraid. Nevertheless, I “think” this is what she meant. But, as always, such analysis simply turns me off - I always find the power of words far more interesting than the pattern. I do love much poetry but I always identify the ideas within first and hate it when words are changed simply to fit a pattern. My least favourite musical instruments: piano and drums. My favourites? The human voice (especially Plainsong) and the Lute. As I say, no sense of rhythm! But all that’s why I’m (if anything) a story teller, rather than a poet.

Meter -  Something like...

We BUILD with STRENGTH and DEEP tower WALL
That SHALL be SHATTered  thus and THUS.
And FAIR and GREAT are COURT and HAll,
But HOW fair--THIS is NOT for US,
Who KNOW the LACK that LURKS in All.

Rhythm -

La/de/la/de/la/de etc.

Rhyme -  

Wall / Hall / All
Thus / Us
“Fair” repeated on consecutive lines which serves to detract from the overall effect.
“Thus” repeated two words apart which helps to ruin the verse for me.
There may be more.

You see, this actually undermines the poem for me - I quite enjoyed the ideas at first - but when I analyse it (regardless of if I’m right or wrong) I find myself really disliking it. Those ideas could have been expressed far better.

However, in fairness, to the poetess, I have not seen the rest yet. Moreover, I would think this is from a different era - Victorian? (I have never read a Victorian novel I like, though poetry ought to have more chance of appealing to me).

Tatty-Bye!

James.
 
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Guest_Don_*
post Dec 30 03, 11:52
Post #5





Guest






QUOTE (Cleo_Serapis @ Dec. 29 2003, 19:44)
Hi all!
Let's start our first interactive class with an abbreviated definition of poetry characteristics:

Poetry communicates and conveys feelings in a concentrated form. It uses language to create sound effects and word pictures, to set up associations in the reader’s mind, and to make striking comparisons through figures of speech.
-----------------------------------------------------------------

In our first class, we will read a few lines from a famous poem.

The exercise is twofold:
[*]First, write down your first image and emotional reaction.
[*]Second, write a few lines with your own feeling and figure of speech to match the lines of the famous poem.

From the works of Alice Meynell, "Builders of Ruins", first stanza:

SUPPLIED VERSE WITH MEANING LINE BY LINE:

We build with strength and deep tower wall
Humanity continues building upon shoulders of past achievments.
That shall be shattered thus and thus.
Nothing last forever.
And fair and great are court and hall,
Wonderful achievements are accomplished.
But how fair--this is not for us,
Their true value we cannot judge.
Who know the lack that lurks in all.
We know ourselves and all we do imperfect.

END RHYME SCHEME: a,b,a,b,a
NO INTERNAL RHYMES except lack/lurk may be half rhyme.

We build with strength and deep tower  wall
That shall be shattered thus and  thus.
And fair and great are court and  hall,
But how fair--this is not for  us,
Who know the lack that lurks in  all.

ALLITERATION
strength/shall/shattered
hall/how
lack/lurk

LINE METER
Each line is perfect iambic tetrameter = four-feet of da DUM (eight-syllables)
except first line, which is nine-syllables of
we build with strength and deep tower wall
which I shall scan as
iambic / iambic / iambic / amphimacer

STANZA METER:  Due to high percentage of iambic the verse is considered iambic.

CREATING VERSE TO MATCH: Ignored for lack of ambition.


Things to keep in mind:
    Is there a set metered pattern (of stressed and unstressed syllables)?
    Is there a set rhyming pattern (repetition of similar sounds)?
    Is there a set rhythmic pattern (the sense of movement attributable to the pattern of stressed and unstressed syllables)?
All questions have been answered affirmative in detail above.

Hi Cleo,

I am  huh.gif STUNNED  huh.gif you chose a stanza with each line with a capital!!!!!! detective.gif

lion.gif Don
 
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Guest_Don_*
post Dec 30 03, 12:15
Post #6





Guest






Hey Cleo,

How about

A word is packed with pixels?


Who finished off the eggnog???

Don
 
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JustDaniel
post Dec 31 03, 05:11
Post #7


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Group: Gold Member
Posts: 18,591
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From: Southwest New Jersey, USA
Member No.: 6
Real Name: Daniel J Ricketts, Sr.
Writer of: Poetry
Referred By:Lori



Well...

after reading all the great and insightful stuff, the community dunce is still sitting here wondering what in hell the first line means!

feeling sLightly... no, devastatingly now... STUPID,


Daniel  Wall.gif

P.S.  Since I couldn't get the image...

here's my emotional reaction:

For the Birds

I am
a dodo, albatross
a fruit bat, gooney bird
awry ringtoss

an eagle’s sore
a will-o-the-wimp
a cock-a-doodle-dew
a dolt, a simp

I peck at caviar
with wrinkled beak…
and ruffle feathers
when I speak

so here I grope –
and more than once…
each time I try
I feel the dunce.

© Daniel J Ricketts 31 Dec 2003


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Guest_Jox_*
post Dec 31 03, 07:08
Post #8





Guest






Hi Daniel,

I've read many of your works; you're certainly no dunce nor, in any way, stupid. Actually, I am delighted that it is no longer just me saying "I don't understand" to poetry postings. I wish more of my students had the strength of character to say they didn't understand rather than pretend they did and make a mess later. Stupidity lies in not speaking up. Moreover, one often finds that one is not alone and others are just afraid to say anything.

Anyway, I can only offer my view of what that first line means - others may disagree...

We build with strength

1 We need to employ our own strength (physical and psychological) to build
2 We need to make the construction itself strong.

and deep

1. Similar to above but a depth of stamina, purpose is employed
2. Similar to above but as well as strong the construction must be deep

tower wall

A tower is an edifice; a phallic symbol of virility; a place of superiority over all that one surveys; an isolation ("ivory towers" for example); a place of warning to others and of others approaching. It is the wall (singular so presumable circular) that we have been building with strong, deep foundations.

Pink Floyd released a concept album in the early 1980s The Wall in which someone built a wall around himself (and it was built from the outside too). For example, teachers who mocked his attempts at life were  "just another brick in the wall". Simultaneously protecting someone from the outside world, yet entombing them. Pink Floyd's work was far superior in my opinion to this verse... but again I don't know the whole poem.

That line, again...

We build with strength and deep tower wall

There is something I don't understand either. Why the poet has chosen to be ungrammatical. I cannot see what would have been wrong with...

We build with strength and depth tower wall

Sounds far better, too. Oh well, maybe you or someone else would explain to me why the bad grammar. I don't think it's a technique but, in any case, not meter, nor rhyme nor rhythm would be an excuse in my view. Gosh, I sound pompous - I'm sure I write far, far worse. But then, again, this is a learning exercise so we must be super-critical.

Every time I've taught poetry in class I have invited students to be super-critical. They were welcome to say it was a load of rubbish - providing that they offered an intelligent justification. I taught it to 11 to 14 year olds for the best part of fifteen years (1983-1998) during English lessons. I have to say that I'm REALLY REALLY glad I never offered any of my works up to any classes for crit!

By the way, what's a "ringtoss"... a fiancee who calls-off the forthcoming marriage, maybe? Actually I have no idea, pray do tell, please.

Hope all this makes sense. James.
 
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Cleo_Serapis
post Dec 31 03, 08:20
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Real Name: Lori Kanter
Writer of: Poetry & Prose
Referred By:Imhotep



QUOTE (Jox @ Dec. 30 2003, 11:50)
Cleo...

Well, I seldom read as most people and usually can never identify such things... I have no sense of rhythm myself - can’t even spot it in music I’m afraid. Nevertheless, I “think” this is what she meant. I always find the power of words far more interesting than the pattern. As I say, no sense of rhythm! But all that’s why I’m (if anything) a story teller, rather than a poet.

However, in fairness, to the poetess, I have not seen the rest yet. Moreover, I would think this is from a different era - Victorian? (I have never read a Victorian novel I like, though poetry ought to have more chance of appealing to me).

Tatty-Bye!

James.

QUOTE
Meter -  Something like...

We BUILD with STRENGTH and DEEP tower WALL
That SHALL be SHATTered  thus and THUS.
And FAIR and GREAT are COURT and HAll,
But HOW fair--THIS is NOT for US,
Who KNOW the LACK that LURKS in All.


Hi James! OK - you've almost got it here with the meter, which in this case is tetrameter, meaning four feet per line (grouping of syllables). The poetic feet in this case can be called iambic, (iamb) the most common foot. Iamb is a metrical foot consisting of an unstressed syllable followed by a stressed syllable or a short syllable followed by a long syllable, as in delay.  

I can only guess that in L1, Mrs. Meynell was counting 'tower' as one syllable, but clearly, the pattern indicates it as two:
We BUILD with STRENGTH and DEEP towER wall

Good job!  :detective:


QUOTE
Rhythm -

La/de/la/de/la/de etc.

Or as some pros word it: da DUM da DUM da DUM da DUM  :sings:

QUOTE
Rhyme -  

Wall / Hall / All
Thus / Us
“Fair” repeated on consecutive lines which serves to detract from the overall effect.
“Thus” repeated two words apart which helps to ruin the verse for me.
There may be more.

Yes - this poem has what is called 'End-rhyme' where the last syllable of a word in two or more verses ends with assonance (identical vowel sounds) as with WALL, HALL, ALL (the a) and then US, THUS (the B). So we can say that the rhyming pattern (scheme) is ababa.

Cheers!
~Cleo  :cheer:


·······IPB·······

"It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step into the Road, and if you don't keep your feet, there is no knowing where you might be swept off to." ~ J.R.R Tolkien, The Lord of the Rings

Collaboration feeds innovation. In the spirit of workshopping, please revisit those threads you've critiqued to see if the author has incorporated your ideas, or requests further feedback from you. In addition, reciprocate with those who've responded to you in kind.

"I believe it is the act of remembrance, long after our bones have turned to dust, to be the true essence of an afterlife." ~ Lorraine M. Kanter

Nominate a poem for the InterBoard Poetry Competition by taking into careful consideration those poems you feel would best represent Mosaic Musings. For details, click into the IBPC nomination forum. Did that poem just captivate you? Nominate it for the Faery award today! If perfection of form allured your muse, propose the Crown Jewels award. For more information, click here!

"Worry looks around, Sorry looks back, Faith looks up." ~ Early detection can save your life.

MM Award Winner
 
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Cleo_Serapis
post Dec 31 03, 08:34
Post #10


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Real Name: Lori Kanter
Writer of: Poetry & Prose
Referred By:Imhotep



[quote=Don,Dec. 30 2003, 11:52]Hi Cleo,

I am  huh.gif STUNNED  huh.gif you chose a stanza with each line with a capital!!!!!! detective.gif

lion.gif Don

LOL.gif Don! Ooops! I must go back and FIX that! OUCHIE!
[/quote]
Hi Don!

You get a gold star for the day!  :wizard:

[quote]We build with strength and deep tower wall
Humanity continues building upon shoulders of past achievments.
That shall be shattered thus and thus.
Nothing last forever.
And fair and great are court and hall,
Wonderful achievements are accomplished.
But how fair--this is not for us,
Their true value we cannot judge.
Who know the lack that lurks in all.
We know ourselves and all we do imperfect.[/quote]

I got a very similar 'message' as well from reading the first line. I also interpret this first stanza to mean that mother and father create offspring who may not take the same paths in life that the previous generations did. The lines:
And fair and great are court and hall,
But how fair--this is not for us,

I take to mean that offspring should not be judged by the deeds of the parents.


[quote]END RHYME SCHEME: a,b,a,b,a
NO INTERNAL RHYMES except lack/lurk may be half rhyme.
We build with strength and deep tower  wall
That shall be shattered thus and  thus.
And fair and great are court and  hall,
But how fair--this is not for  us,
Who know the lack that lurks in  all.
Excellent Don!  :cheer:

[quote]ALLITERATION
strength/shall/shattered
hall/how
lack/lurk[/quote]
How I love adding alliteration (repetition of sound clusters of two or more words) to my own pieces! Well spotted!

[quote]LINE METER: Each line is perfect iambic tetrameter = four-feet of da DUM (eight-syllables) except first line, which is nine-syllables of
we build with strength and deep tower wall
which I shall scan as iambic / iambic / iambic / amphimacer

STANZA METER:  Due to high percentage of iambic the verse is considered iambic.[/quote]
Thanks Don! I learned a new word today, "amphimacer"! TY!

[quote]CREATING VERSE TO MATCH: Ignored for lack of ambition.[/quote]

Ohhhh! Too bad!  :footballhelmet:

Thanks for your wonderful observations non-the-less!  :detective:  :pharoah2


·······IPB·······

"It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step into the Road, and if you don't keep your feet, there is no knowing where you might be swept off to." ~ J.R.R Tolkien, The Lord of the Rings

Collaboration feeds innovation. In the spirit of workshopping, please revisit those threads you've critiqued to see if the author has incorporated your ideas, or requests further feedback from you. In addition, reciprocate with those who've responded to you in kind.

"I believe it is the act of remembrance, long after our bones have turned to dust, to be the true essence of an afterlife." ~ Lorraine M. Kanter

Nominate a poem for the InterBoard Poetry Competition by taking into careful consideration those poems you feel would best represent Mosaic Musings. For details, click into the IBPC nomination forum. Did that poem just captivate you? Nominate it for the Faery award today! If perfection of form allured your muse, propose the Crown Jewels award. For more information, click here!

"Worry looks around, Sorry looks back, Faith looks up." ~ Early detection can save your life.

MM Award Winner
 
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Cleo_Serapis
post Dec 31 03, 08:47
Post #11


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Posts: 18,892
Joined: 1-August 03
From: Massachusetts
Member No.: 2
Real Name: Lori Kanter
Writer of: Poetry & Prose
Referred By:Imhotep



QUOTE (Don @ Dec. 30 2003, 12:15)
Hey Cleo,

How about

A word is packed with pixels?

Who finished off the eggnog???

Don

LOL.gif Don!

I just gotta use this emoticon (No one's used it yet)! :offtopic:

Eggnog? I never had any eggnog....Hmmmm- but I WILL be having some Moet tonight! WAHOOOOO!

PartyFavor.gif H A P P Y N E W Y E A R! PartyFavor.gif

Good idea!  :lovie:  :dance:


·······IPB·······

"It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step into the Road, and if you don't keep your feet, there is no knowing where you might be swept off to." ~ J.R.R Tolkien, The Lord of the Rings

Collaboration feeds innovation. In the spirit of workshopping, please revisit those threads you've critiqued to see if the author has incorporated your ideas, or requests further feedback from you. In addition, reciprocate with those who've responded to you in kind.

"I believe it is the act of remembrance, long after our bones have turned to dust, to be the true essence of an afterlife." ~ Lorraine M. Kanter

Nominate a poem for the InterBoard Poetry Competition by taking into careful consideration those poems you feel would best represent Mosaic Musings. For details, click into the IBPC nomination forum. Did that poem just captivate you? Nominate it for the Faery award today! If perfection of form allured your muse, propose the Crown Jewels award. For more information, click here!

"Worry looks around, Sorry looks back, Faith looks up." ~ Early detection can save your life.

MM Award Winner
 
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Cleo_Serapis
post Dec 31 03, 08:55
Post #12


Mosaic Master
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Group: Administrator
Posts: 18,892
Joined: 1-August 03
From: Massachusetts
Member No.: 2
Real Name: Lori Kanter
Writer of: Poetry & Prose
Referred By:Imhotep



QUOTE (Just Daniel @ Dec. 31 2003, 05:11)
Well...after reading all the great and insightful stuff, the community dunce is still sitting here wondering what in hell the first line means!

feeling sLightly... no, devastatingly now... STUPID,

Daniel  Wall.gif

P.S.  Since I couldn't get the image...

here's my emotional reaction:

For the Birds

I am
a dodo, albatross
a fruit bat, gooney bird
awry ringtoss

an eagle’s sore
a will-o-the-wimp
a cock-a-doodle-dew
a dolt, a simp

I peck at caviar
with wrinkled beak…
and ruffle feathers
when I speak

so here I grope –
and more than once…
each time I try
I feel the dunce.

© Daniel J Ricketts 31 Dec 2003

Daniel! You are NOT a  :dunce: ! A Jester.gif maybe, but no  :medusa: .

So there!

This is one of those things I like about interpretation, ask any number of people to respond with what they think this first lines means, and I'm SURE you'll get any number of different answers.

We build with strength and deep tower wall

When I read it, I think of a proud people working together to build a strong foundation that is not easily scaled.

Now, I see that James has also added a great response and so has Don. There are no wrong answers, isn't this  :cool: *cool*?


I love this!
I peck at caviar
with wrinkled beak…
and ruffle feathers
when I speak


Thanks for your response!  :cheer:
~Cleo  :pharoah2


·······IPB·······

"It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step into the Road, and if you don't keep your feet, there is no knowing where you might be swept off to." ~ J.R.R Tolkien, The Lord of the Rings

Collaboration feeds innovation. In the spirit of workshopping, please revisit those threads you've critiqued to see if the author has incorporated your ideas, or requests further feedback from you. In addition, reciprocate with those who've responded to you in kind.

"I believe it is the act of remembrance, long after our bones have turned to dust, to be the true essence of an afterlife." ~ Lorraine M. Kanter

Nominate a poem for the InterBoard Poetry Competition by taking into careful consideration those poems you feel would best represent Mosaic Musings. For details, click into the IBPC nomination forum. Did that poem just captivate you? Nominate it for the Faery award today! If perfection of form allured your muse, propose the Crown Jewels award. For more information, click here!

"Worry looks around, Sorry looks back, Faith looks up." ~ Early detection can save your life.

MM Award Winner
 
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Guest_Don_*
post Dec 31 03, 17:28
Post #13





Guest






A glorious goodbye to December.

Hi Lori,

Having maternal instinct it is fitting you would also see parent/child relationship.

As you see I generalized and encompassed all of humanity.
Tower--at least in the western sphere of castle terminology-- is the "keep" and strongest and safest defense from aggressive harm.  If all other defenses fail the defenders go into the stocked, fortified keep.  It is the core of our total defense.  General humanity has opted toward ultimate safety of human cultures.  Our defenses are far from perfect and each generation contributes to promoting survival of our species.

A worn coin dropped into the slot machine of discussion.

Don
 
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Guest_Don_*
post Dec 31 03, 17:55
Post #14





Guest






QUOTE (Just Daniel @ Dec. 31 2003, 04:11)
Well...

after reading all the great and insightful stuff, the community dunce is still sitting here wondering what in hell the first line means!

feeling sLightly... no, devastatingly now... STUPID,


Daniel  Wall.gif

P.S.  Since I couldn't get the image...

here's my emotional reaction:

For the Birds

I am
a dodo, albatross
a fruit bat, gooney bird
awry ringtoss

an eagle’s sore
a will-o-the-wimp
a cock-a-doodle-dew
a dolt, a simp

I peck at caviar
with wrinkled beak…
and ruffle feathers
when I speak

so here I grope –
and more than once…
each time I try
I feel the dunce.

© Daniel J Ricketts 31 Dec 2003

Hi Daniel,

I feel honored to have you pecking my fish eggs anytime.

As a teacher of poetry you are an asset of high magnitude.

Personally I am discouraged that only a few grasp that main trope(s) are relatively unimportant to art of poetry.  Does it matter the meaning is missed?  Not really.  Is the practice lesson verse poetic? It certainly is because it sings even if listener hears gibberish.

All too often the first question anyone asks is, "What does it mean?"
As a teacher of poetry, you, of all people, should know meaning is between poet and reader.  Outside of that the meaning(s) are extremely moot.

Enjoyed your poem bashing yourself. but not the subject being bashed.

Up, up and away
as annual last day
is sealed this dusk.

Dawn of a new year
for everyone's cheer.

Don sun.gif
 
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Cleo_Serapis
post Jan 1 04, 15:27
Post #15


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Did Don mention 'slot machine'? Ohh la la!

I'll be a droppin many a coin (worn or otherwise) into Las Vegas (lost wages) ones in another 40 days, but who's counting? cool.gif laugh.gif


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JustDaniel
post Jan 1 04, 15:52
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Thank you all for your kind words and encouragement... and Don!  No one has ever accused me of being a teacher of poetry before. Far be it from me!

But I humbly bow in appreciation!

I stare down deep at fallen tower wall
that now lies shattered, shat on ~ gone ~
where fair and great once courted all –
but not the peon. Now it’s peed upon
(by those who dared to spill their guts withal.)
 


Lightly, Daniel  sun.gif


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Guest_Jox_*
post Jan 2 04, 18:46
Post #17





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Hi Don,

I've been reading your reply to Daniel - and I don't think I really understand it.

Personally I am discouraged that only a few grasp that main trope(s) are relatively unimportant to art of poetry.  Does it matter the meaning is missed?  Not really.  Is the practice lesson verse poetic? It certainly is because it sings even if listener hears gibberish.

All too often the first question anyone asks is, "What does it mean?"
As a teacher of poetry, you, of all people, should know meaning is between poet and reader.  Outside of that the meaning(s) are extremely moot.


Surely, a trope is figurative speech (e.g. a simile) and is not figurate language rather important to much poetry? Is not "the meaning" a separate issue?

Apropos "the meaning":

I agree entirely that the meaning is established betwixt writer and reader - both have their part to play. Therefore, ceteris paribus, possible interpretations of a poem are infinite. Writing is a form of communication so, for me, establishing the meaning of any writing is absolutely essential. I fully accept that poetry (more than any other form of the written word) may have strong aesthetic values which are there to be appreciated. This is akin to enjoying the beauty of music without understanding what it is about in any way - and similar for a painting. Nevertheless, words do have specific meanings which distinguishes them from musical notes or globules of paint. I think that ignoring those meanings misses the main point of writing. There is still the aesthetic aspects to enjoy - a swirling sound for water, maybe or alliteration and so on - but there are just poetry’s riches; not its raison d’etre.

Of course, since I did not really understand your comments I may have misinterpreted what you said - sorry if that be so. Nevertheless, it is an interesting debate.

James.
 
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Guest_Don_*
post Jan 3 04, 13:14
Post #18





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QUOTE (Jox @ Jan. 02 2004, 17:46)
Hi Don,

I've been reading your reply to Daniel - and I don't think I really understand it.

Personally I am discouraged that only a few grasp that main trope(s) are relatively unimportant to art of poetry.  Does it matter the meaning is missed?  Not really.  Is the practice lesson verse poetic? It certainly is because it sings even if listener hears gibberish.

All too often the first question anyone asks is, "What does it mean?"
As a teacher of poetry, you, of all people, should know meaning is between poet and reader.  Outside of that the meaning(s) are extremely moot.


Surely, a trope is figurative speech (e.g. a simile) and is not figurate language rather important to much poetry? Is not "the meaning" a separate issue?

Apropos "the meaning":

I agree entirely that the meaning is established betwixt writer and reader - both have their part to play. Therefore, ceteris paribus, possible interpretations of a poem are infinite. Writing is a form of communication so, for me, establishing the meaning of any writing is absolutely essential. I fully accept that poetry (more than any other form of the written word) may have strong aesthetic values which are there to be appreciated. This is akin to enjoying the beauty of music without understanding what it is about in any way - and similar for a painting. Nevertheless, words do have specific meanings which distinguishes them from musical notes or globules of paint. I think that ignoring those meanings misses the main point of writing. There is still the aesthetic aspects to enjoy - a swirling sound for water, maybe or alliteration and so on - but there are just poetry’s riches; not its raison d’etre.

Of course, since I did not really understand your comments I may have misinterpreted what you said - sorry if that be so. Nevertheless, it is an interesting debate.

James.

Hi Jox,

Perhaps I have mistakenly entered a sacred temple?  Let me step from a mist into clearer light for you to discern my shape.

I admit that "trope" is best applied strictly to figures of speech.  Let me enter the sunshine and say subject, theme or meaning instead of misleading, "trope."

Where I come from is an English professor teaching poetry repeatedly called general meaning a trope.  He also, to which I finally match his stride, insisted that the thematic meaning(s) were of lesser importance than other poetic devices.  In fact he used the obvious meanings strictly for sub-genre classification.  He may have had two ulterior motives.  First motive may have been to break students away from concentrating on meaning and pay attention to his instruction of multiple devices of the art.  
Second motive may have been related to grading critereon.
 
We probably agree that more people dance to music in relative ignorance of what it is all about.  So our impasse is that I, more than majority, pay far more attention to arrangements and effects of melodic mix than name of tune.

For me poetry is the beautiful building materials of language rather than overt message conveyed.
A speaker can transcend all subject matter via mastery of delivery. I am enthralled by whatever the beautiful lady chooses to say...sing me lullabys.

Messmerize me with your nonsense, Dr. Suess, or you, Lewis Carrol.

Maps may be discarded in direct proportion to strolling familiar paths of poetry.  Subjects like paths are essential foundation, but not among most pleasing objects to absorb.

Concluding, I agree with you that trope and meaning do differ, despite my professor's usage; and I shall retreat into a haze mumbling,

"May your path always be in verdant valley."

Don
 
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JustDaniel
post Jan 3 04, 16:10
Post #19


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Group: Gold Member
Posts: 18,591
Joined: 2-August 03
From: Southwest New Jersey, USA
Member No.: 6
Real Name: Daniel J Ricketts, Sr.
Writer of: Poetry
Referred By:Lori



surface meanings trope
this bumpkin would-be poet
unaware he’d trip


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Guest_Jox_*
post Jan 3 04, 17:47
Post #20





Guest






Hi Don,

Thank you for your reply.

Sacred temple? Maybe but not mine; I don't build them and try not to frequent them!

Thanks for your explanations - starting with "trope". Your Prof. sounds a character. Moreover, you are educated to a higher standard than I in English (I did not study it at Uni). He was right, at least in his perspectives - students do need encouraging to "see the light" and grading is always on the horizon so teachers do need techniques!

Your focus on the sound of poetry, rather than the message, is the opposite of mine but both are (like various poetical interpretations) valid. Indeed, I do often miss the various sounds so I very much appreciate them being indicated to me.

I have to admit to not having read Dr Seuss but Lewis Carroll is never nonsense. Well, not in my book - surrealism seems the only sense this World has sometimes. I certainly share your enjoyment of Carroll.

Paths / Foundations...

I take your point on that but I think you mistake paths for the destination. Paths may be prettier for the wayside flowers but the journey would be futile if it ended in nothing: a pretty futile journey. We can all dance along those paths to tunes appreciated but not understood.

However, language gives the poems different ways of exploration and, indeed, a more literal (!) meaning which - far from being a tedious skeleton to hang the attractive frame - is the heart of the poem. We’ll agree to disagree.

Sorry about the switch of metaphor - just exercising my stereophonic trope!

That verdant valley - think you must have seen a photo of where I live. Verdant because it is sopping wet with all the rain we’ve had. Verdant and muddy! Thanks for those good wishes and I hope that your valley is no less verdant but is, also, sunny!

Daniel - amusing and yet serious haiku... well done but you must stop decrying your very substantial poetical abilities. Than again, the haiku does that for you, methinks!

OK, I’m off to paint the roses red.

Toodle Pip!
James.

 
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