Nimbus [rev 3 26 Dec 2006], A 'Frost' response Options

[Cleo_Serapis]

This poem was written a few years ago to the Robert Frost snippet challenge (in the Acropolis). Since Thanksgiving is almost here, I am re-posting for fresh commentary.

Revision 3 (change in setting, time and place) -thanks Gregory!



Nimbus

Kismet cleanses the steps
of celestial forces
affixed to an undergrowth
of uncertainty.

Journeys of jocular
interludes of the
Great Harvest flourish.

Had that mire
found its cornucopia
where the sun surfaces
primal prosperity?

Had that lotus
found its wealth
where the river recedes
and shade of reeds soothe?

A Phoenix flew to
the garden of life,
expending its nourishment.

Pharaohs ascend,
giving and receiving
seasonal bounty.

As one luminary clock
calculates cycle's completion
nothing gold can stay,
for all good things
are bound.

Copyright © Lorraine M Kanter 26 Dec 2006


Revision 2 (with new title)

Nimbus

Kismet cleanses the steps
of celestial forces
affixed in an undergrowth
of uncertainty.

Journeys of jocular
interludes of the
Great Harvest flourish.

Had that soil
found its cornucopia
where the sun surfaces
primal prosperity?

Had that flower
found its wealth
where the woods are lovely
and shade of trees soothe?

A small bird flew to
the garden of life,
engaging its nourishment.

Others came and went,
giving and receiving
seasonal bounty.

As one luminary clock
calculates cycle's
completion, nothing
gold can stay, for
its time is finite.

Some say the world
discounts Nature’s
fortunes. I disagree.

Copyright © Lorraine M Kanter 08 Dec 2006


[ Original ]

Undergrowth of Uncertainty

Kismet comes to wash
the steps of ethereal forces
affixed in an undergrowth
of uncertainty.

Journeys of jocular
interludes of the
Great Harvest flourish.

Had that soil found
its cornucopia where
the sun surfaces
primal prosperity?

Had that flower found
its wealth where the
woods are lovely and
the shade of trees
soothe?

A small bird flew to
the garden of life to
drink of its nourishment.

Others came and went,
giving and receiving
seasonal bounty.

As one luminary clock
calculates cycle's
completion, nothing
gold can stay, for
its time is finite.

Some say the world
discounts Nature’s
fortunes. I disagree.

Copyright © Lorraine M Kanter 16 Nov 2006


Original snippets used (some may be revised):
to wash the steps;
bent in the undergrowth;
of the great harvest;
Had that flower;
the woods are lovely;
the shade of trees;
A small bird flew;
one luminary clock;
nothing gold can stay;
Some say the world

[AMETHYST]

I love this Lori, I remember the Snippets challenge but reading this now it is fresh and full of active phrases...I've printed it out here at work, will be leaving soon so will get to it tomorrow. I wanted to say I stopped in, read this and was taken aback by its strengths -- Hugs, Liz

[Guest_Lanaia_*]

VERY well dne!

[Cleo_Serapis]

Hey Liz.

Thanks for your post! I look forward to your return and commentary!

~Cleo

[Cleo_Serapis]

VERY well done!

Thanks Lanaia.

Since this forum is for critiquing of works, would you kindly offer to me your thoughts on my poem, in the form of a critique?

Have I adequately conveyed my message within the content of the work? Does this message have the same meaning to your as it does to me? Words on a page can be very striking and pretty, but do they make sense? Are they the 'right' words to use to convey my intended message? Does the work set a mental picture in your mind? Does the imagery presented reinforce and compliment the message of the work? Is there a pleasing flow to the work as you read it? Do the sounds of the words compliment each other from line to line, thought to thought ? Do the transitions impede the flow? Punctuation can play a part in the rhythm as well.

Put all three requirements together and then you have a starting point for giving critiques.
The imagery supports and enhances the message by providing an emotional relationship.
The rhythm allows one to pause and reflect which enhances the message.
The message is clearly understood.

Hope these will be of benefit to you!

Here is a link to the forum's participation rules with all the details (also, please read the announcement sticky topic at the top of this forum) too so you'll understand what we hope to achieve with our posts and replies.
http://forums.mosaicmusings.net/index.php?act=SR&f=51


Please let me know if you have further questions
~Cleo

[AMETHYST]

Hey Lori,

I'm back! First, the title is a very powerful phrase, but because it is found in the very first stanza, and offers in meaning a much more important position there ... and although the title is great, maybe if another more powerful title arises you might consider it.

The subject is also strong and with such images as in S1, 'ethereal forces affixed in an undergrowth of uncertainty' gives the reader a moments pause to mull over the depth of such thoughts and meanings.

Some further thoughts and comments to follow, I hope something I leave makes sense, and I think this is a very well thought out poem that with minor tweaking you'll have a poem that holds great depth and pleasures in the read.

Hugs, Liz


Undergrowth of Uncertainty

Kismet comes to wash
the steps of ethereal forces
affixed in an undergrowth
of uncertainty.

Excellent opening stanza. L1 brings to light the idea of what is due, what is set in motion that we have no control of. The only nit I have is in L1, the word comes just seems a little flat lined in compareson to the whole meaning in S1. I am not sure if omitting it, leaving

Kismet washes
the steps of ...

Does that change your meaning drastically? ....


Journeys of jocular
interludes of the
Great Harvest flourish.

Another excellent image. I have to smile at the idea of nature's jokes upon us in such unexpected ways...

Had that soil found
its cornucopia where
the sun surfaces
primal prosperity?

Suggest bringing 'where' from L2, down to begin L3. Another good follow up stanza. The alliteration between prmial prosperity is smooth off the tongue and adds pleasure to hear a loud. Nicely done!

Had that flower found
its wealth where the
woods are lovely and
the shade of trees
soothe?

Again, suggest bring found down to L2 and the down from L2 and ...'and' from L3 down to L4 and poss omitting 'the' before shade of trees...

Example:
Had that flower
found its wealth
where the woods are lovely
and shade of trees soothe?


A small bird flew to
the garden of life to
drink of its nourishment.

Perhaps... changing 'to' in L1 to toward and then perhaps.. bringing 'to' from L2 down to L3...
Example:

A small bird flew
toward the garden of life
to drink of its nourishment.



Others came and went,
giving and receiving
seasonal bounty.

Perhaps...
Others arrive, then leave,
giving and receiving
seasonal bounty.

Love the image and meaning of these lines.

As one luminary clock
calculates cycle's
completion, nothing
gold can stay, for
its time is finite.

I would suggest omitting 'completion' the thought and image sets perfect as a image in my mind of a large, glowing almost gloriously gleaning like an angels halo, and the hands monitor each cycle till the next one begins...

The final 2 lines leave me with varying thoughts... I love how you've painted the view of something/someone pure, unblemished and as everything has a set time allotment, the wear and tear of that time spent vanishes the state of being 'golden' ... I think you've painted this quite well.


Some say the world
discounts Nature’s
fortunes. I disagree.

GREAT ENDING! Not a nit!

Other than some shifting in end words to leave off some lines on a more dramatic or powerful point of view, this is 'still in its gold state'


Hugs, Liz

[TygerTyger]

Cleo, You lioness!

This is really good! But, I want to muse it a bit before I comment. I'll be back!

Dennis!

[Cleo_Serapis]

Hi Liz and Dennis.

Oops! I just noticed your replies.

I'll be back on the weekend (if not sooner) when the timekeeper is more forgiving.

Cheers
~Cleo

[Cleo_Serapis]

Hi Liz.

Sorry for my delay in responding! Time keeps slipping away from me these days. I am not overly committed to the title, especially the word 'Undergrowth'. What do you think of 'Haloed Hope' or 'Nimbus', or "Nature's Nimbus" ? I kinda like the third one...
Yes, S1 is kind of a lot to take in actually - I'm not certain its meaning is easily understood.
Kismet comes to wash
the steps of ethereal forces
affixed in an undergrowth
of uncertainty.

Excellent opening stanza. L1 brings to light the idea of what is due, what is set in motion that we have no control of. The only nit I have is in L1, the word comes just seems a little flat lined in compareson to the whole meaning in S1. I am not sure if omitting it, leaving

Kismet washes
the steps of ...

Does that change your meaning drastically? ....
Thanks! You've captured my intent in the word 'kismet' meaning our fate in the unknown world is upon us. Now that I read it again, wash is also a bit flat. To keep an alliterative going there, what about:
Kismet cleanses the steps
of celestial forces
affixed in an undergrowth
of uncertainty.
Journeys of jocular
interludes of the
Great Harvest flourish.

Another excellent image. I have to smile at the idea of nature's jokes upon us in such unexpected ways...
Thanks Liz. I am fond of this stanza for its 'lightness' - dual meaning to angelic encounters.

Had that soil found
its cornucopia where
the sun surfaces
primal prosperity?

Suggest bringing 'where' from L2, down to begin L3. Another good follow up stanza. The alliteration between prmial prosperity is smooth off the tongue and adds pleasure to hear a loud. Nicely done!
Thanks so much - will move down 'where' also.

Had that flower found
its wealth where the
woods are lovely and
the shade of trees
soothe?

Again, suggest bring found down to L2 and the down from L2 and ...'and' from L3 down to L4 and poss omitting 'the' before shade of trees...

Example:
Had that flower
found its wealth
where the woods are lovely
and shade of trees soothe?
OK, that will work.

A small bird flew to
the garden of life to
drink of its nourishment.

Perhaps... changing 'to' in L1 to toward and then perhaps.. bringing 'to' from L2 down to L3...
Example:

A small bird flew
toward the garden of life
to drink of its nourishment.
The issue there is that the symbolism is that the bird flew to it, not toward it (meaning it actually went there, completing the journey. I think I could change the second 'to' to 'and' followed with 'drank' though to keep the intended meaning?

Others came and went,
giving and receiving
seasonal bounty.

Perhaps...
Others arrive, then leave,
giving and receiving
seasonal bounty.

Love the image and meaning of these lines.
Thanks Liz - I like your idea, however I like my original a tad more, LOL!

As one luminary clock
calculates cycle's
completion, nothing
gold can stay, for
its time is finite.

I would suggest omitting 'completion' the thought and image sets perfect as a image in my mind of a large, glowing almost gloriously gleaning like an angels halo, and the hands monitor each cycle till the next one begins...
Hmmm, I'm fond of 'completion' and think it might change the meaning if eliminated. I think if it were changed to 'calculates cycles' it would change it as I want the focus to be on time, the 'completion' of the cycle, not the cycle itself here.
The final 2 lines leave me with varying thoughts... I love how you've painted the view of something/someone pure, unblemished and as everything has a set time allotment, the wear and tear of that time spent vanishes the state of being 'golden' ... I think you've painted this quite well.
so much!

Some say the world
discounts Nature’s
fortunes. I disagree.

GREAT ENDING! Not a nit!

other than some shifting in end words to leave off some lines on a more dramatic or powerful point of view, this is 'still in its gold state'

Hugs, Liz

I thank you very much for your feedback and suggestions Liz (and for your nom too). I'm glad to have bumped this one for a fresh look.

Cheers
~Cleo

[AMETHYST]

Hi Lori,

Well this was screaming to me to get a nomination. Infact, my hand has been ichy waiting for the ok on IBPC and the forum to be open for business...

As for the title, my vote is for "Nimbus" cause it is specific, and short. Yet it contains enough mystery about it to draw someone in with a curiousness of subject!



In stanza 1, I think cleanses is absolutely the prime word choice!

Big Hugs, Liz ...

As for the rest, I will be taking another look see on the next revisions and will be back!

[Cleo_Serapis]

Liz.

I've just posted the revision.

Cheers
~Cleo

[Aphrodite]

Hi Lori~

It has been a very long time since I have been in this forum and am thrilled to read one of your pieces.

I remember this poem and like the assonance throughout and the questions you leave for the reader to ponder.

Lots of imagery, and for me, the piece has both a mediaeval and celestial vibe to it.

"Had that soil found
its cornucopia where
the sun surfaces
primal prosperity?"

Nice job and the revision is great!

Merry Christmas to you and yours.

Lindi

[Guest_Gregory_*]

Lorainne,

I would like to take the 'challenge' aspect out of this poem for a moment as some of the phrases have been placed and it seems a little embellishment wouldn't hurt it. The meaning of this poem is clear which is usually a reason not to change anything, but I could see how to add a little more substance here could charge the meaning with a bit more energy. Kismet seems to stand alone at the beginning and i wonder if the use of this sanscrit idea of 'fate' may be used to more effect. The last question and the N's disagreement don't really add up to a line of philisophical enquiry about the concept, and the idea of 'replying to' Nimbus (which is derived from the latin nebulae) is a little hard to imagine given the reader doesn't know what the question 'Nimbus' has asked is. You have given all the clues but they seem to point the reader away from the meaning rather than to. Somehow the idea of 'good fate' as an extension of the beauty and symetry of nature comes through, which is testimony to the clarity of your message. kismet is 'cleansing' the steps which are full of undergrowth, where is the sythe or rapier to cut the vines, where is sleeping beauty? The resultant release of 'cycles' becomes the next refrain. Does the 'journeys of jocular interludes' or the 'Great Harvests' make up for the uncertainty? Then a couple of rhetorical question, perhaps these should be a statement like the previous S. What soil anyway? Just any soil, or the soil at the base of the rising Euphrates or the Nile? Wasn't that where these images were born? Referencing may make the abstractness of this poem more sentient. 'That flower...' what flower? The Hybiscus or Orchid, or at least some symbol that doesn't mean squat to the reader. Was the bird a dove? Or a swallow? Does it have to be any old bird, or would it mean more if it followed the line of Kismet and Nimbus, make it a legendary bird, or connect it to a myth. The idea of a bird getting nourishment is not going to make up for the 'uncertainty' unless it has historical or philisophical significance. 'Others'? Other creatures? You could do a lot more with this. S7 is contrary to the message in a Zen kind of way, sets up the last thought, but what luminary clock? Could you be a bit more specific here, the general form of luminary clock is hard to imagine. I would have thought based on the conceptual apparency of the sanscrit "Kismet" that the opposing logic would work better in S7. Time is finite, therefore things cannot last forever you express. Kismet was conceptualised as an attractive force for good fortune, an understanding that if one acted out of the good of the force, fate would be kind. It was only powerful because time was an illusion and learning to see that would give one an understanding of how to act out of the good of Kismet. To say time is finite seems to undermine the whole poem, to say good things are finite is more accurate. The last question is a tell, not a show and should be discarded. The idea you expressed came through well, I hope the embellishments I have offered might help. cheers, Gregory

[Cleo_Serapis]

Hi Gregory.

I want to thank you very much for your intellectual reply! Yes, taking the 'challenge' aspect out of the equation here, I have thought through your commentary and have made some changes (a bit more dramatic as a result). I've changed the setting to a Pharaoh/god in the Anicent Egyptian Nile during the great harvest, instead of our modern 'Thanksgiving'.

"Journeys of jocular interludes" hopefully will now give more clues/answers in this revision to the uncertainly of fate. In ancient Egypt, the culture depended on the harvest (the Nile's deposits of rich black mud) to sustain them through the season to come. If the Nile'f floods were kind, they reaped the rewards. It all has to do with the Pharonic symbolism of him being a 'god' who was repsonsible for the outcome of harvest (the Osiris myths) - god of agriculture. It all boils down to fate. Fate for the kingdom, fate for the god/pharaoh too. I've changed the 'bird' to a phoenix for its symbolism to rise and be reborn in keeping with the nimbus theme and myths. I've also changed the 'flower' to a 'lotus', again for its symbolism and Greek legend as yielding a fruit that induced a state of dreamy and contented forgetfulness in those who ate it. "Forgetfulness" is key even in the Exodus.

Time is finite but I was never really satisfied with that stanza. As per your excellent feedback, I've edited it to reflect 'good things' being bound (again, conferring back to the previous stanza that human forgetfulness has consequences) - I think this substitution will have more meaning. Do you agree?

I'm not certain on the ending, but have edited it so it is no longer a question but rather an observation of Trinity - hope this ties back to the opening line and title more now too.

Thanks so much for your suggestions Gregory! Much appreciated!

Cheers
~Cleo

[Cleo_Serapis]

Third revision posted - change in setting

[AMETHYST]

Wow Lori,

These changes have brought the poem to whole new level of intensity. Excellent reworking on an already powerful poem.

Not a nit left to nip at!

Hugs, LIz

[Cleo_Serapis]

Hi Lindi.

Sorry I missed your post when replying to Gregory.

Yes, it's a duality in meaning and you have read between the lines well. I have just made some revisions to it since you posted this so I hope you'll come back and let me know if it further enhances your interpretation and keeps the celestial and medieval feel.

Thanks for stopping in and Merry Christmas to you and Happy New Year!

~Cleo

[Cleo_Serapis]

Hi Liz.

Thanks so much - I really am thankful that Gregory posted his thoughts as I like the setting changes more now - glad you do as well!

Glad you stopped in! Made my otherwise drab/boring day a lot more meaningful....

Cheers
~Cleo

[Cleo_Serapis]

For new crits/commentary please.

Thank you!
~Cleo