Rebutting Dylan, another viewpoint Options

[Guest_poeticpiers_*]

Rebutting Dylan

Rage not against the dying of the light.
That which must be will come to pass,
we’ve earned the comfort of the night.

Each one of us deserves respite
no matter what their creed or class.
Rage not against the dying of the light.

To rest in peace is our birthright
but some of us still doubt alas.
We’ve earned the comfort of the night.

It’s destiny we cannot fight.
We see but dimly through the glass.
Rage not against the dying of the light.

There is a garden of delight
where centuries as moments pass.
We’ve earned the comfort of the night.

Which is half hidden from our sight
that will our dearest dreams surpass.
Rage not against the dying of the light
we’ve earned the comfort of the night.

2-Oct-06

A friend pointed out my error I had used tetrameter in all but the first line of each stanza A glaring error I had not noticed
Revised version




Rebutting Dylan

Welcome the dying of the light.
That which must be will come to pass,
we’ve earned the comfort of the night.

Each one of us deserves respite
no matter what their creed or class.
Welcome the dying of the light.

To rest in peace is our birthright
but some of us still doubt alas.
We’ve earned the comfort of the night.

It’s destiny we cannot fight.
We see but dimly through the glass.
Welcome the dying of the light.

There is a garden of delight
where centuries as moments pass.
We’ve earned the comfort of the night.

Which is half hidden from our sight
that will our dearest dreams surpass.
Welcome the dying of the light
we’ve earned the comfort of the night.

2-Oct-06

[JustDaniel]

Excellent riposte, Ivor. I really like it. Its sentiments pretty much echo my own, actually. You've written a very good villanelle in the process and reframed some of Thomas' perspective into a framework of your own. I like that.

deLighting in your sharing, Daniel

P.S. I'm about to post a take-off of my own... but of course in a totally different direction.

[jgdittier]

Dear Ivor,
I'll not second the thought that using tetrameter is in any way an error.
Yours is a riposte, your message is different and you've stated it as elegantly as he has his, and you've done it more tersely. My thought is that pentameter would dilute yours.
Very admirably done, sir!!!
Cheers, ron jgd

[JustDaniel]

I did notice that the IP in the repeated first line (the only one that was IP) and that you'd written the rest in IT, which I assumed was by design, since you were consistent.

I don't think you're suggesting that writing an IT really is a problem (as Ron confirms), but that that one repeated line was out of sync? Am I correct?

Either way, though, Ivor, you've written an excellent riposte.

deLightin' in yer writin', Daniel

[Guest_poeticpiers_*]

It fell between two stools Daniel It had to be balanced The shortened first line achieved the same effect I felt. Much as I admire Dylan Thomas a s a poet I had to challenge his assumptions ivor


I did notice that the IP in the repeated first line (the only one that was IP) and that you'd written the rest in IT, which I assumed was by design, since you were consistent.

I don't think you're suggesting that writing an IT really is a problem (as Ron confirms), but that that one repeated line was out of sync? Am I correct?

Either way, though, Ivor, you've written an excellent riposte.

deLightin' in yer writin', Daniel
[/quote]

[JustDaniel]

It fell between two stools, Daniel. It had to be balanced. The shortened first line achieved the same effect I felt.

That's exactly what I hoped I was communicating. I thoroughly agree... but I also liked it the way you had it too. That 'challenges' the form even more... so either way, I salute you!

deLightin' in the journey, Daniel

[Arnfinn]

Hi Ivor,

The Villanelle in my opinion is the most difficult of fixed forms. Dylan Thomas's 'Do Not Got Gentle Into That Good Night', written in pentameter, is my favourite poem. What makes me appreciate the poem better, is Thomas,s reason for writing the poem, and the poem should be read in this context.

Thomas's father was dying but did not know it, and his son wrote the poem in order to express intense feelings that he could not communicate to his father without letting him know he was dying, which is a point to ponder.

Although it didn't happen- when I read 'Do Not Go Gentle Into That Good Night', I read in the concept of a young son taking his frail fathers hand into his own and gently reciting the words.


Kind regards,


John

[Guest_poeticpiers_*]

Thankyou John. My own experience is somewhat different I worked as a socaial worker for many yeras I specialised in the care of the lederly and terminally This no doubt coloured my perceptions.My won father died at ninety eight. A conscious decision I must add He was losing his sight and his hearing and had decided it was time to go. I was able to accept his decision and support it My siblings thought I was rather hard but I respected it was his choice not anyone elses.
What hit me was he told the vicar shortly before he died that he had been widowed twice as long as he was married and all he wanted was to see his Nell my mother.
Intellectual acceptance is much easier then emotional acceptance

Hi Ivor,

The Villanelle in my opinion is the most difficult of fixed forms. Dylan Thomas's 'Do Not Got Gentle Into That Good Night', written in pentameter, is my favourite poem. What makes me appreciate the poem better, is Thomas,s reason for writing the poem, and the poem should be read in this context.

Thomas's father was dying but did not know it, and his son wrote the poem in order to express intense feelings that he could not communicate to his father without letting him know he was dying, which is a point to ponder.

Although it didn't happen- when I read 'Do Not Go Gentle Into That Good Night', I read in the concept of a young son taking his frail fathers hand into his own and gently reciting the words.


Kind regards,


John

[Arnfinn]

Thankyou John. My own experience is somewhat different I worked as a socaial worker for many yeras I specialised in the care of the lederly and terminally This no doubt coloured my perceptions.My won father died at ninety eight. A conscious decision I must add He was losing his sight and his hearing and had decided it was time to go. I was able to accept his decision and support it My siblings thought I was rather hard but I respected it was his choice not anyone elses.
What hit me was he told the vicar shortly before he died that he had been widowed twice as long as he was married and all he wanted was to see his Nell my mother.
Intellectual acceptance is much easier then emotional acceptance

Hi Ivor,

The Villanelle in my opinion is the most difficult of fixed forms. Dylan Thomas's 'Do Not Got Gentle Into That Good Night', written in pentameter, is my favourite poem. What makes me appreciate the poem better, is Thomas,s reason for writing the poem, and the poem should be read in this context.

Thomas's father was dying but did not know it, and his son wrote the poem in order to express intense feelings that he could not communicate to his father without letting him know he was dying, which is a point to ponder.

Although it didn't happen- when I read 'Do Not Go Gentle Into That Good Night', I read in the concept of a young son taking his frail fathers hand into his own and gently reciting the words.


Kind regards,


John

Hi Ivor,

An interesting insight, Ivor. Your the kind of person I admire.
You seem to have spent a long time on strugglestreet.

The inspiring story about your fathers love for your mother even a very old age supports, to an extent, the feelings expressed in Thomas's poem.

If we divest oureselves of clothing it's only our sex and different physical shapes that make us different from others.
When we die, in a realistic world, we are not judged by God. We are judged by an obituary and our peers, where our darkest and sombre deeds are turned in humorous interludes and misfortunes, with a shake of the head, are trivialised as bad luck.

The purity of Dylan Thomas's wonderful poem and the compassion conveyed throughout, is without equal in my view.

Regards, and thank you for coming back with your story and personal tribute to your father.


John

[Guest_Normpo_*]

I am a big fan of allusion and you have used it well here. Your theme is consistent and the poetic form you've chosen is perfect for that emphasis IMHO.

I do differ with the post that this is the most difficult poetic form --- one needs only try to write a Sestina to understand why I say that. (I think there is a thread in Karnak on the Sestina --- take a peek).

Great poem here --- well done.

Norm

[Jim AKA Rapid-Fi...]

A wonderful viewpoint on Dylan Ivor, you have excelled once again............

WRITE ON!!

[Guest_norm_*]

I agree.

[Arnfinn]

I am a big fan of allusion and you have used it well here. Your theme is consistent and the poetic form you've chosen is perfect for that emphasis IMHO.

I do differ with the post that this is the most difficult poetic form --- one needs only try to write a Sestina to understand why I say that. (I think there is a thread in Karnak on the Sestina --- take a peek).

Great poem here --- well done.

Norm

Hi Norm,

The Sestina may have been a difficult exercise in the 1200's, but now with dictionaries and thesauruses etc...things have changed. All you have to doo is say pick out common end words. You've only got set the flow with the first stanza,(6) then flow on to the final three-line envoi.

Nah, don't challenge me to write one...the main reason. Firstly is the computer...you can delete, insert words, re-arrange stanza's, mate we are illiterate compared to the poets of yesterday. That why I don't like exerice poetry very much because most of your composition comes from information stored on the hard drive of your computer and modern technical literature books. The modern poet would only be about one sixteenth intelligent as the poets of a hundred years ago.

That said, if I was going write exercise poetry, I would write a Villanelle, because of the rhyming pattern and the use of repeated lines, the next I would try would be a sonnet and as sonnets go i would choose the Spenserian, because I like the rhyme abab,bcbc,cdcd,ee.

We all are intitled to opinion of course and I respect yours.

Regards,

John

[JustDaniel]

Rage not about which form's most difficult
for it's the doing it that brings us joy;
we revel in both process and result!

(And I may just use that some day to write a villainous villanelle myself!)

Write on, you guys!

deLighting in the repartee, Daniel

[Guest_poeticpiers_*]

Interesting to read the different points of view from fellow poets.

My normal writing mode is rhyming quatrains which I use for narrative poetry but I write formal poetry partially as an exercise in self discipline and partlt because I enjoy it.
I do not agree that poets of yesteryear were more intelligent admittedly we have the tecchnical aids today.Never the less I write on paper in pencil never directly on screen. I find the computer a great aid in editing bur it inhibits my composition
I read a great deal of poetry from the past for the sheer enjoyment of the english language
I deplore todays text speak it may be quick but I find it brutalises our language

[Arnfinn]

Interesting to read the different points of view from fellow poets.

My normal writing mode is rhyming quatrains which I use for narrative poetry but I write formal poetry partially as an exercise in self discipline and partlt because I enjoy it.
I do not agree that poets of yesteryear were more intelligent admittedly we have the tecchnical aids today.Never the less I write on paper in pencil never directly on screen. I find the computer a great aid in editing bur it inhibits my composition
I read a great deal of poetry from the past for the sheer enjoyment of the english language
I deplore todays text speak it may be quick but I find it brutalises our language

Very Interesting Ivor,

Well, Ivor you made a very pertinent and important point: the enjoyment of writing, and writing well.

I too in the first instance write my poetry on paper using a pencil. I use a (A4) sized hard cover, spiral backed, lined paged, exercise book. I write my first draft (with many adjustments) then pull that page out, place it to my left, then start my second draft. It usually takes two or three drafts (sometimes four) to have something reasonable. I then place the final draft in a page holder to the left of my monitor and use the computer, Microsoft Word, to finish the assignment.

I too read poetry. I purchased two books recently 'The Selected Poems of W. B. Yeats', selected by John Kelly, and the 'Best Australian Poetry 2006'. I'm also reading a marvellous book called the 'Gallipoli Dairies' about the experiences of soldiers in the trenches in the First World War, and no doubt I will write some poetry about their words.

The evolution of the Poet.

The reason for opinion that poets were more intelligent hundreds of years ago is that all the sucessful poets of yesteryears were craftsmen and women, their tools of trade were, pencil, pen and paper and their abilities.

Ivor, today anyone can call themselves a poet, I dare say in the world today there are millions of people who are poets by the advancement of technology.

Take all these items away from todays pseudo poets

Computer
spelling dictionary
rhyming dictionary
dictionary of grammar
guides to punctuation
thesaurus.

Now give them a dictionary, (Oxford/Websters), a pencil and paper and tell these poets to write some exercise poetry. Sure, some people will do it and some will turn out reasonable poetry, but I'd say the majority would be substandard.

This is the point I'm making about intelligence: the old poets only had the basics.


Best wishes

John

[jgdittier]

Dear Ivor,
On rereading bothyour poem and the entire thread, two further comments:
I think your message and its delivery are masterful. It is more powerful because it is more terse, that is in tetrameter and I think the intro in pentameter is well chosen as it puts Dylan in our minds.

You have initiated a most interesting thread. Sharing our thoughts will make each of us better at this magestic hobby.

My thanks and nicely done!
Cheers, ron jgd

[Aphrodite]

Hello Poeticpiers,

This is an excellent Villanelle! Such sweet and somber images emerge from your stanzas as you incorporate the old and the new.

Very nice!