The Price to Pass the Gate, A Stretch Sonnet and "Think Piece" Options

[jgdittier]

If man be blessed with life once past the "gate",
So dear a gift must somehow pose a price.
The way to pay is never left to fate,
So o'er our earth we're subject to advice.
Some say the golden rule is paramount...
Or love, and empathy in ev'ry case.
By faith alone? Contrition fully count?
Is love of peace to be the saving grace?
Does daily prayer pay the entire price?
To fight the force of evil might apply.
Does valiant sacrifice for man suffice?
Or rituals, the devil's dues deny?
Our life on earth may be the "all" we ask,
A voyage God has left for man to steer.
To navigate life's path with grace the task
That, free of will, humanity's no fear.
Our mortal coil, we must not soil, howe'er,
For either way, we're treated naught but fair.

[Merlin]

Dear Ron,

Each question will garner an entire bouquet of answers, some of which will suit one person, some another.

Merlin

[AMETHYST]

Hi Ron,

Excellent theme. The poem is smooth to my ear and my eye... I sometimes read through in Plato's, not often, but very rarely if ever comment. This is surely worth the read, infact, a few reads! :)

I agree with Eric, as the questions posed will in someway or another touch or stir something in every reader...
Best Regards, Liz

[jgdittier]

Dear Merlin,
Yes, I hope all who read this one commit to at least one of those ploys.

Dear Amethyst,
Smooth to the ear and I and will touch or stir something in each reader...
Had I written this to myself andforged your name I couldn't like it more.!Even my muse has goosebumps!
Cheers, Ron jgd

[Psyche]

My, Ron, this is a great stretch sonnet! So many questions, doubts, reflections. And deftly put into proper R&F. Congrats!

I think pieces that bring different reactions from various quarters are the very best. And for some reason, this profound poem of yours brings to mind Alexander Pope's AN ESSAY ON MAN, III, The Proper Study. I'll try to find it on Internet and give you a link, if you don't already know it.

Thanks for being so creative and sharing your thoughts,
cheers,
Syl

[Psyche]

Me again, Ron!! Wow, you've really made me think deeply, reminding me of Pope and all that. I found a link, just in case you or anybody else is interested.

http://www.theotherpages.org/poems/pope-e2.html

You don't have to read the whole thing, I believe the first stanza is the best known.

Consider yourself among the greats, I mean it, Ron, and thank you.

Cheers, Syl

[Guest_Don_*]

A thinkers peice.

I found my bias left little option toward conclusions.

That, free of will, humanity's no fear. [I read this that as humans we do not have free will and as such have nothing to fear]
Our mortal coil, we must not soil, howe'er, [I disagree that moral living is any more assurance than not.]
For either way, we're treated naught but fair. [Only fair in the eyes of entity that judges our ultimate predestination]

Why the archaic words?

Thanks for sharing.

Don

[jgdittier]

Dear Psyche,
Anyone who has ever written here has most likely been greatly pleased when his words were taken seriously enough to initiate an intellectual discussion. Your link has done so and has caused me to consider trying to para it. Note that Pope chose R&M and his reasons. Milton chose blank verse for I assume the same reasons when writing Paradise Lost.
It all goes to show that poetry is as diverse an art as art itself and one can get lost looking for the forest 'mongst all those trees.
I've never done much with Pope, but will do so now and you, dear lady, have opened the door for me.
Thank-you, thank-you, thank-you!
Cheers, ron jgd

[jgdittier]

Dear Don,
I'll always wonder whether this one should have been longer or shorter, whether it should be more definitive or more open to the reader's interpretation.

"That free of will, humanity's no fear", might read in prose that if man has free will as the western world generally believes, then man need not fear being cursed to eternal punishment for following a path predestination planned for him. Thus not soiling our mortal coil would be one of the prices to pass the gate. Of course, I'm no purist in defining "soil".

It seems to me, too, that if there is any rhyme or reason to man's existence and any reason to speculate on this topic, free will demands fair treatment in the hereafter.

As to archaic, that's my style.

Thanks for the comments.
ps-original sin seems to me to be anathma to free will

[Guest_Don_*]

Dear Don,
I'll always wonder whether this one should have been longer or shorter, whether it should be more definitive or more open to the reader's interpretation.

"That free of will, humanity's no fear", might read in prose that if man has free will as the western world generally believes, then man need not fear being cursed to eternal punishment for following a path predestination planned for him. Thus not soiling our mortal coil would be one of the prices to pass the gate. Of course, I'm no purist in defining "soil".

It seems to me, too, that if there is any rhyme or reason to man's existence and any reason to speculate on this topic, free will demands fair treatment in the hereafter.

As to archaic, that's my style.

Thanks for the comments.
ps-original sin seems to me to be anathma to free will

I certainly am not a purist on anything. There is the argument that original sin is the fault of the creator because what choice did we have? Christianity depends upon control via fear, so logically we have free will to bend to dogma. Those whom ignore God or equal creator usually claim total free will, but other disbelievers, as you well know, claim various degrees of free will.

I think we have a large degree of free will, otherwise how could we get into so much trouble. On the otherhand our knowledge is insignificant and our very existence depends upon eons of entities outside our control. Therefore, we essentially have minimal free will and our illusion is that we have a great deal.

As a blasphemous believer I argue the old premise that without a moral God we are totally lost to immorality. I interpret Voltaire's, "If God did not exist, it would be necessary to invented him" as we are better off believing than not.

So much for shirt sleeve philosophy.

I think your poem is long enough and open enough. More probably would muddy the water with eddies in the stream.

Don

[JustDaniel]

Definitely thought-provoking, leaving answers adequately to the reader. I'd only disagree with a few of the authoritarian statements in responses you've received to it. Well done, Ron.

Please tell me what a 'stretch sonnet' might be. My search has turned up nothing, so I'm rather in the dark. The only thing that came close to it was someone's sonnet which they termed (strecth) which had iambic heptameter lines (I believe)... but certainly longer than pentameter. Yours, however, is stretched the other way... so I'm just wondering.

needin' an' always appreciatin' more Light, Daniel

[Cleo_Serapis]

Hi Ron.

A thought-provoking poem to be sure!

I think of free will as a choice of sorts. We make decisions along the path of life, some good, some evil in nature to find a means to an end (of whatever it is we think we are slave to) - hence the word 'free'. 'Will', now that is an interesting word: can we 'will' ourselves to the pearly gates and enter the kingdom 'free' of man's disgraces - if not paid already by some mortally wounded dues (psychologically speaking)?

Good questions raised in this one!

A voyage God has left for man to steer.
To navigate life's path with grace the task
That, free of will, humanity's no fear.
Our mortal coil, we must not soil, howe'er,
For either way, we're treated naught but fair.

I wonder how 'free' our 'will' really is - or is there some other force, a higher purpose that guides us?

Cheers
~Cleo

[Guest_poeticpiers_*]

If man be blessed with life once past the "gate",
So dear a gift must somehow pose a price.
The way to pay is never left to fate,
So o'er our earth we're subject to advice.
Some say the golden rule is paramount...
Or love, and empathy in ev'ry case.
By faith alone? Contrition fully count?
Is love of peace to be the saving grace?
Does daily prayer pay the entire price?
To fight the force of evil might apply.
Does valiant sacrifice for man suffice?
Or rituals, the devil's dues deny?
Our life on earth may be the "all" we ask,
A voyage God has left for man to steer.
To navigate life's path with grace the task
That, free of will, humanity's no fear.
Our mortal coil, we must not soil, howe'er,
For either way, we're treated naught but fair.

Hi Ron enlighten me Stretch sonnet is new to me Parameters please
ivor

[jgdittier]

Dear Ivor,
I suppose a "stretch" sonnet is any sonnet in any way longer than properly defined.
Years ago I wrote a sonnet with a 15th line and a reader called it "a sonnet with a tail".
Stretch is by no means a proper term.
Cheers, ron jgd

[jgdittier]

Dear Psyche,
You have opened a door and the room beyond is great indeed!
As an interpreter of Pope's "Essay..." I face dismay, so first I need to be totally sure whether you refer to Epistle II or III. I'm assuming III and so went to Representative Poetry where III is excerpted. I'm finding it hard going in guessing what is meant but am giving it my best. "Nuff until I know this is what you meant...

Dear All,
The greatest surprize for me re "...the Gate" is the divergence re "free will". I've pretty much arrived at my own philosophy and I assume since a boy I accepted the concept of free will. I assumed the opposite of free will was fate and predestination and that they negated the concept of morality. Although I'm admittedly behind the times and am being dragged kicking and screaming into the 21st century, I recognize that the speed of change in modern times is eroding concepts of morality.
My last three lines converted to prose might read:
The greatest fear humanity might have is loss of or never having free will. In that we do have free will, we must attempt to live a moral life and so, we, ourselves, control our acceptance at the gate.
This is probably too heavy a topic for poetry sites. My e-mail address is jgdittier04@optonline.net
Cheers, Ron jgd

[Guest_Don_*]

I disagree that this subject is too "heavy" for poetry. Should we revert to:

Roses are red
as violets are blue
Fred loves Ted.
Why don't you?

Don :)

[jgdittier]

Dear Don,
Methinks Pope agrees with you!!!
Cheers, ron jgd

[Guest_Don_*]

Dear Don,
Methinks Pope agrees with you!!!
Cheers, ron jgd

VERILY

Don

[Cleo_Serapis]

Hi Ron.

If you'd like, you can also start a tile in the Discussion forum too (Alexandria's Library)?

[Merlin]

Hi Ron,

For anyone interested in forms, here's my contribution.

Sonnets have appeared in both longer and shorter versions than the 14 lines. Those with more are called (be some):

Stretched Sonnet
A sonnet stretched to 16 or more lines by someone who couldn’t compress thoughts into the required 14.

Heroic Sonnet
This is an 18-line sonnet (?) in iambic pentameter that tags a heroic couplet to make –
· two Sicilian octave stanzas, or
· four Sicilian quatrain stanzas
· and that heroic couplet.
Volta, one or more, may appear after one or both octaves, or anywhere following a quatrain. Rhyme scheme is mostly abababab cdcdcdcd ee or abab cdcd efef ghgh ii, but there is no restriction on Petrarchan or enveloped schemes.

Caudate Sonnet
An Italian form; other names are Caudated or Tailed Sonnet. This is a Petrarchan sonnet with extras to make a total of 20 lines –
· Petrarchan sonnet abbaabba cdecde
· A 3-foot tail, rhyme is e
· A heroic couplet, rhyme is ff
· A 3-foot tail, rhyme is f
· Another heroic couplet, rhyme is gg.


These are copied from my "volume" following the research I've done.

Merlin