Haiku, Japanese form Options

[Guest_Jox_*]

H Grace,

Thanks for your reply...

>>Can't agree with this James, if the writer hadn't thought in the first place there would be nothing for us to read.

You're right - bad phrasing by me. I meant that it doesn't matter what the writer thought to my (or anyone's) interpretation. Yes, of course we'd be nowhere without the original text.

>>And surely the writer has his/her point of view to put across. He is allowed to state his own interpretation of his own piece. (As we all do when explaining why we wrote the words we wrote, in the order we wrote them.

Bless you Grace - starting a paragraph with "And" I love doing that - was never allowed to at school.

Did I say or infer that a writer was not allowed to state their meaning? Can't see where I said that - not my opinion at all. If you take a look at my latest thing (Freeform - Memory reflection) Nina offers her view of what she thinks it means and I explain what I meant. I couldn't possibly be against anyone stating what they meant.

>>Certainly they may and I was not saying that your interpretation was wrong, only that I had taken a different meaning from it. There was no criticism of your view whatsoever. I was merely trying to understand what Perry was trying to say and  demonstrate a different way of saying it.

I never thought that you were saying my interpretation was wrong... I seem to be saying things I didn't mean. Puzzled. I never took any criticism, Grace - did I make you think I did? Well, I must have but I don't know how. I understood what you were doing - no problems with me. Sorry I'm really incredulous here.

>>As to the haiku/senryu debate - it matters not one jot to me what people wish to call it, I was merely offering the definitions of the two words.

My disagreement is with those definitions. They are not ones I agree with. (Well the haiku isn't - don't know about t'other - not bothered with it). If you look at the original definition which Fran re-quoted, it does give one perspective but then, in the last sentence, it acknowledges that differences exist.

>>Fran, I am so sorry if you feel uncomfortable here. That is such a shame, since Haiku is one of the most beautiful forms of pure poetry I have encountered. I find these tiny snapshots help to keep my brain ticking over and sometimes inspire longer poems.

I will back that entirely. I have already apologised if I made her feel uncomfortable - but I can't think it was anything I said to you and certainly not vice-versa. And I must be able to defend myself.

But it is right that we should argue these differences -  You may remember I'm the chap who doesn't believe in Magic, Religion or Science. I hate the idea of absolutes. If you say "My name's Grace" that's fine. Your choice.

But if someone says "these are the rules" I always want to know how, why, who set them, by what authority, on what basis, why does it matter and a million more points.

One lad once questioned my authority to do something in class (though he was not rude per se). I resisted the temptation to say "Because I say so." I put him in detention and, instead of work, I also remained behind for the hour and talked to him. I argued my corner, listened to his and it went back and forth. In the end I think he was desperate to get away and would have preferred I said "because I say so." We got on fine after that.

My view is never accept anything on face value - ask what value and what reason the face. I always remember most Germans accepted Hitler without question. If we cede authority, plenty of people will be only too pleased to take it. Who are these Haiku experts? Why are they better able to state what a haiku should be than you, Daniel, or I; we all have our views. All are equally valid unless the experts can convince us otherwise. (I'd never be out of The Glasshouse if I were in the Army).

Thanks Grace, still perplexed as to why you think I took umbrage; I assure you I didn't.

Best wishes, J,

[Guest_Jox_*]

Hi Daniel,

Thanks for your reply,

>>You're not too far off; actually New England is basically the states north of New York.  Most of New Jersey is SSW of NY, and the part where we live is actually below the "Mason-Dixon Line" the legendary division between the old "North" and "South" ... that some die-hards still hold to.  (I ain't one o' them!  The climate here is moderated by both the Delaware Bay and the Atlantic Ocean... and immediately here by the Cohansey River, which is a tidal river that flows in and out of the Delaware.

Thanks for that; I knew none of it. Very interesting. I'm 55m west of London, UK and we're on a level with Moscow and Canada - should be far colder - only the Gulf Stream keeps us warm.

The only thing I (and sorry about this) know about Delaware is the old song naming all the states - Guy Mitchell? It includes the awful line "What does Della wear, boys?" (repeated I think). It was my Mother's name so i remember it well.

>>We got an inch or so of snow this morning, but it's the first day that the temp seems to be climbing above freezing for a couple of weeks.  There's been a LOT of snow and ice this year SOUTH of us. The weather patterns in the US this winter have been a bit topsy-turvy of the "usual."  Whether that's the effect of "Global Warming" is up for grabs, I suppose, but surely seems to be.

Yes, actually, looking back the climate has been changing here since I was a youngster. Used to have deep snow for several days/ weeks every winter - now a rarity.

>>Anyhow, you may be interested in a bit of "hillbilly humor" on the subject in the faux-ku tile.  There, the requirements of the form are absolute -- since I invented them and declared them to be -- so there ain't no debatin'    

LOL! That's the way to do it. Thanks for the tip-off, been there before - but I'll revisit. Cheers.

>>Thanks for clearin' the windshield; I'll be back with more haiku snow when the weather's right in me head.  

Good to chat with you as always, Daniel. Good haiku, too.

Cheers, James.

[Guest_Toumai_*]

Hi Daniel,

Wellington boots are long waterproof rubber boots. They used to be only black or green, but now come in all colours and patterns, especially for children.  

Fran

welly boots stomping
nature trail secrets
in wildest delight

[Guest_Jox_*]

Daniel,

Thanks Fran - A little more, also...

Wellies - abbreviated slang for those Wellington Boots.

The Duke of Wellington was so-called after the Battle of Wellington. In turn, Wellington boots are named after him - because he wore long boots in battle.

I think you may call them "Gum Boots" in the USA?

Churchill was a descendent of the Duke of Wellington - and a native American was his mother, to boot.

Steppin' gooily in me Wellies in the mud...

James.

[Cybele]

Hello Daniel,

How's that for service?  No sooner queried than answered. Hope you got the picture to go with the explanation?

Fran,

Great riposte!

welly boots stomping
nature trail secrets
in wildest delight

Brings back fond memories of field nature trips at school.  :dance:

[JustDaniel]

squish felt in wellies
shrouded by web of intrigue...
erst wee spider

[Guest_Toumai_*]

Daniel, that would be my worst nightmare - terrified of spiders. I can cope with snakes, worms, troops of baboons and even Yellow Class at school - but not spiders.
Yours, running to check my wellies are arachnid-free,
Fran

[Cybele]

Hi Everyone,

Haiku/Senryu (as you will)  

that last November :
boys in khaki uniform
faded into mist

[JustDaniel]

Hi, Grace!  I would say that this is one of those senryu variety of haiku, myself.  You've given quite a picture of going off into the unknown utilizing the weather, and the khaki uniforms date the picture to a bygone era, methinks, since uniforms are camo these days.  Are you thinking of Ralph back then, or some other friends going off to another war.  

But then the picture also captures the pathos of any present situation too.  Extremely well done...

and you know that I'd likely have ended the piece with
faded into missed

Hi Everyone,

Haiku/Senryu (as you will)  

that last November :
boys in khaki uniform
faded into mist

Lightly, Daniel

[JustDaniel]

Here's another of the senryu variety of haiku (which sometimes have a bit of humor) which some outside the US may or may not understand:

Patriots rejoice
over bald Eagles' demise?
rings of tyranny

Lightly, Daniel  :sun:

[Cybele]

Hello Daniel,

This piece is about the 1914- 1918 Great War.  It ended in November and I often think of the mothers of the boys, some as young as 16 or 17
who went into battle on those last days and were killed. I know losing a child at any stage of the war must have been devastating but to lose one just when the Armistice was about to happen must have been even more horrendous.

Will write separately about your faux-ku Daniel, since this is rather solemn.

[Guest_Jox_*]

Hi Grace,

As you may know, I'm a very big "fan" of WWI poetry. (My favourite poet of all is Wilfred Owen).

I think your poem is excellent. It has at least a multiple interpretations:

The literal death of soldiers
The end of the war when men were de-mobbed out of uniform
The end of the war enabling people to start forgetting (though from WWI that was tough because of the percentage of the population directly affected).
The end of war itself -  society swapping khaki for civvies.

and so on...

The late demise of soldiers is especially poignant - Owen himself was killed in the last week of the war at the old age of 26. Many, as you intimate were younger but all were young. The war wiped out a whole generation - as well as the previous way of life. (One could even take khaki to represent the Big House Aristocracy way of life).

I marvel how you have used so few words so simply and said so very much - more, I think, than you'd even realised.

Splendid, thank you.

James.

[Cybele]

Hello James,

Ever since I wrote Letter from Nowhere I have been dwelling on this subject and was going to write a full poem, then decided that a Haiku would say it all without unneccesary embellishments which would have detracted from the starkness and horror.

You will see in my reply to Daniel all the pictures it was supposed to conjure up.

I saw these young men ordered out of the trenches, terrified. The fact that they disappeared into the November mist represented the fact that their young lives were snuffed out as they were all killed.

I am glad that you got so much out of this.

BTW my favourite war poet is Rupert Brooke.

[Cybele]

Hi Daniel,

Patriots rejoice
over bald Eagles' demise?
rings of tyranny


You will have to explain this one to me. Remember, I am a Brit.

[JustDaniel]

Hello Daniel,

This piece is about the 1914- 1918 Great War.  It ended in November and I often think of the mothers of the boys, some as young as 16 or 17
who went into battle on those last days and were killed. I know losing a child at any stage of the war must have been devastating but to lose one just when the Armistice was about to happen must have been even more horrendous.

As I had said above, I knew it had been about a previous war, and had I known WWI ended in November, that would have fixed WWI in my mind.  However, as I had said above, and as James has given a few examples of , your piece speaks volumes of MANY such scenes of going off to war or of HAVING GONE off to war previously, whether the memory of it is the fog, or the persons who went off did not return.  SO MANY interpretations are available to your pregnant words.

So I say it again, Well Done!

Will write separately about your faux-ku Daniel, since this is rather solemn.

Actually, mine is not a faux-ku, but a legitimate senryu, a form that often has a bit of humor in it, though certainly not always. [One distinguishing feature of a faux-ku is that it has a title, besides the plays on words.]  Since the point has been made that senryu IS haiku (with which I agree) I included it in this tile, even though we have a separate tile for senryu (that isn't much utilzed). But I'm glad that you're looking at it separately.  It's as it should be.

deLightingly, Daniel  

[Guest_Jox_*]

Hi Grace,

It is interesting we both like WWI poets - though WWI poetry is perhaps the most popular section of poetry around. I don't know many by Brooke but I think we'll split there. His Foreign Fields for instance I think almost makes war  sound nobel - soldiers just fall asleep. I prefer the bitter satire of Seigfried Sassoon and others. I think Owen brings the horrors of the trench home in so many ways from the horrific (Dulce et Decorum) to the philosophical (Futility) and the surreal (Strange Meeting). The poet I dislike even more than Brooke is Julian Greenfel for his mythical look at war as an heroric theatre. Having said that, all four were in the war so, as humans one has sympathy and respect but as poets I can't take Brooke and Greenfel - unless I've missed some of their works - which is quite possible.

Sorry for the brief intrusion into haiku - but it does link!

James.

[JustDaniel]

Hi Daniel,

Patriots rejoice
over bald Eagles' demise?
rings of tyrannyYou will have to explain this one to me. Remember, I am a Brit.

Greetings, Grace!  

While referring to the results of this past weekend's long-awaited Super Bowl XXXIX in Jacksonville, FL, in which the American Football Conference Champion New England Patriots (returning Super Bowl champs, having become so now three of the past four years) defeated the National Football Conference Champion Philadelphia Eagles 24-21,,,

however, while alluding to the covented Super Bowl rings that the winners get, I was playing on the names of the teams to allude further to how unpatriotic it would be for the early patriots to rejoice over the demise of the bald eagle, since that would almost have a ring of tyrrany... or perhaps better, 'traiterous.'  I hope that makes sense now.

deLighting to explain, Daniel  

impotence of dusk

bodes marooned bed of darkness;

sun also rises


© Daniel J Ricketts 09 Feb 2005

[Cybele]

night of the black moon;
guided onwards by the breath
of kind angels

[JustDaniel]

So sorry I missed this one, Grace.  Quite lovely!

moonlit gallery

displays splashes of Easter;

Son-rise o'er lilies

© Daniel J Ricketts 27 March 2005

[JustDaniel]

gentle plucking hands

forget winter’s biting sting;

daffodils abuzz


© Daniel J Ricketts 28 March 2005