New Pope, Wizard Award ~ A Missed opportunity Options

[Guest_Jox_*]

© James Oxenholme, 2005. I, James Oxenholme, do assert my right to be identified as the author of this work in accordance with Sections 77 and 78 of The Copyrights, Designs And Patents Act, 1988. (Laws of Cymru & England, as recognised by international treaties). This work was simultaneously copyrighted in the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the United States of America. This work is posted as an unpublished work in order to elicit critical assistance and other helpful comment, only.

For info: In this forum as a rhyming poem. No known meter. No known form.

TC 0364 AC


*Graphic provided by
Celtic Castle Designs

New Pope:
by TC

Hope!...

European;
traditional isotope.
White;
ethnic biotope.
Male;
limited scope.
Catholic;
exclusive slope.
Elderly;
how to cope?
Christocentric;
insufficient rope.
Conservative;

...No
      Hope.

(end)



"|1116161346 -->

[Guest_Jox_*]

Hi,

In search of a crit, I'm bouncing this back up to see if anyone would care to offer any assistance.

Thanks in advance.

James.

[Guest__*]

Dear Jox,

Difficult to crit polemic !

You'd like the pope to be different, you know who I would like to "modify", my feeling is we are far too early to offer a "this is the life and times of Benedict XVI" yet.

As a poem, it has an interesting scheme, with your only-you type pattern and rhyme, there is nothing to crit on that.

Love
Alan

[Guest_Zeus˛_*]

James;
good short succinct observation, and brevity with rhyme.

Perhaps early;

Speculation on past
Interim, hold the fort
Perfunctory, search for new
Status quo, no rocking the boat
Maneuvering behind the scenes
Political, partly
Youthful, still looking at prospects

Will he GROPE: not likely.

This could go on ad infinitum.

Larry

[Guest_Jox_*]

Hi Alan,

Thanks for popping in.

>>Difficult to crit polemic !

emm. I think the vast majority of what I write is discursive on some aspect of politics. And, you're at it, too!

>>You'd like the pope to be different, you know who I would like to "modify",

Tony Blair. Me too.

>>my feeling is we are far too early to offer a "this is the life and times of Benedict XVI" yet.

Well, that is fine. My crit is not only directed at him - in fact, in a way, not directed at him at all. It is directed at the College of cardinals for electing him.

Yes, I suppose the leopard might change his spots. But don't forget he's "The Enforcer" - the man charged by himself and Pope JP2 with squashing the Brazilian clergy's fight for liberty for the poor.

This new pope is the man who was behind / with all of JP2's policies which were so destructive - this man was JPs'2 "right hand." Some say he's more right-wing that JP2 and I think that is obvious from his recent magazine comments bemoaning the death of racial purity** in Europe. If this man were a private citizen or even, maybe, a parish priest, fair enough but this man is now very powerful. I am dreadfully sorry that the RC hierarchy have seen fit to elect JR. And when I say “dread-full” I mean it - I am full of dread for many poor people around the World. I regret to say, I think the RC Church will have more blood on its hands.

**OK, here’s my fav recent (English translation of) a quote by JR. (From a left-wing Italian publication interview “La Repubblica.” (Late last year).

“Negative birth rates and immigration are changing Europe's ethnic make-up. Above all we've gone from being a Christian culture to one of aggressive secularism which at times is intolerant.”

Linking ethnicity with "aggressive secularism" - not even the UK Tories dare go that far. (Don't ethnic minorities include RCs? or is this some other addenda?) Good to see the new Holy Father espousing such thoughts. Not.

So, don’t be non-white, gay, non-RC (other Christian sects simply won’t do), don’t use barrier contraception etc - that is, if you want to please JR... Will Pope Benedict XVI be different? We’ll see.

You think I may be wrong? I REALLY do hope you are right and I have to write some poem to apologise to JR in four years’ time (when he may stand-down). My being wrong would be a miniscule price to pay.

>>As a poem, it has an interesting scheme, with your only-you type pattern and rhyme, there is nothing to crit on that.

Only me? I have invented a unique form? I’d love to believe I have but I’ll just thank you for your kindness.

So, thank you, Alan.

James.

[Guest_Jox_*]

Larry, Hi,

Thanks also for being brave enough to comment.

>>good short succinct observation, and brevity with rhyme.

Thank you.

>>Perhaps early;

Fair point - except... Sorry, I've put the arguments in my reply to Alan - daft to repeat them but they are equally valid here. As I say, if I'm wrong - brill!

>>Speculation on past

Don't think so - see above.

>>Interim, hold the fort

That is true. But Popes don't just hold the fort... the change or entrench things. He'll entrench.

>>Perfunctory, search for new

The College of Cardinals could hardly have been taken by surprise by Pope JP2's death, could they? Plenty of time to have search ed for the new. Did you know that only two (of 115 Cardinals present) cardinals were at the election of JP2. So, during his term, JP2 flooded the College with all these right-wing cardinals, swamping the few liberals he promoted. So JR's election (by at least 2/3) makes perfect sense there.

>>Status quo, no rocking the boat

The boat needs sinking, in my opinion and a new one building, based on either not influencing many people around the World (which, ironically, might actually be the result of this election) OR by being a force for compassion, liberty and good. Not evil. I really don't care how the RC church manages itself if they are not influential - but they are - very.

Maneuvering behind the scenes

>>Political, partly

100% To paraphrase Tina Turner, "What's religion gotta do with it?"

>>Youthful, still looking at prospects

emm??? No Cardinals are youthful!

>>Will he GROPE: not likely.

LOL, No I looked at "grope."

Actually JR is a deeply religious and pious man himself. Lived akin to a monk, I believe. No personal crit. And I don't crit his views - he, like you and I, can think as he likes. But now he has massive influence. That, for me is the problem.

Thanks, Larry, James.

>>This could go on ad infinitum.

Nope, it couldn’t. I carefully put my pitch into the poem - I have no more crits at present of the new Pope’s election.

Larry

[Guest_Toumai_*]

Hi James,

Well, you couldn't have pared much more off this; good angry,  punchy brevity.  Okay, I shall ignore my own politcal (oh, and religious?) views and crit the poem itself as I see it trying to declare your ideas ...

As I said, I think the short phrases really get the message across, and the rhyme ideas are fit well.

I wonder if the semi-colons should more correctly be colons, given the way it is presented?

Hope!...  --- well, 'twould be nice ...

European;
traditional isotope.  --- isotope = particular form of a molecule; interesting metaphor.
White;
ethnic biotope.  --- yep, same idea, but now race
Male;
limited scope.  --- rofl (dare I say more?)
Catholic;
exclusive slope.  --- slope? not sure I follow
Elderly;
how to cope?  --- he can't cope? or his flock?
Christocentric;
insufficient rope.  --- no flexibility?
Conservative;

...No
     Hope.  --- I knew we were talking politics! (sorry).

Not sure how this could be improved on without wrecking your form (hehehe! - the aardvaarks are coming home to roost ) so I'll wait to see what you say in explanation of my confusion.

Fran

[Guest_Jox_*]

Hi Fran - thanks for your visit and comments and, especially suggestions / questions.

>>Well, you couldn't have pared much more off this; good angry, punchy brevity.  Okay, I shall ignore my own political (oh, and religious?) views and crit the poem itself as I see it trying to declare your ideas ...
>>As I said, I think the short phrases really get the message across, and the rhyme ideas are fit well.

Thank you - on all three counts.

>>I wonder if the semi-colons should more correctly be colons, given the way it is presented?

Good Q... I did wonder... the reason I went swith semi-colons is that the second part comments on the first. But I think colons are at least as valid. Will think on't. Thanks!

>>Hope!...  --- well, 'twould be nice ...

I did have it, prior to the white (grey for a black-and-white pope!) smoke.

European;
traditional isotope.  --- isotope = particular form of a molecule; interesting metaphor.

"Tope" is from the Greek and means "place", Iso = "the same". So this pope is from the same place (Europe) as every other pope, despite the RC Church being so vast in other continents. (The chemists simply stole the Greek words!). Hope that makes sense.

White;
ethnic biotope.  --- yep, same idea, but now race

Yes. Same biological type.

Male;
limited scope.  --- rofl (dare I say more?)

Thank goodness the Pope has to be male - look what would happen, otherwise :)

Catholic;
exclusive slope.  --- slope? not sure I follow

OK, it's a fair cop! This is the one with which I struggled most. I am unsure about "slope" but there are genuine reasons for it. I meant both "slippery slope" as in descending - a sight tongue-in-cheek reference but also a concern about all the harm which might be done. I also meant (having my cake and scoffing it), the ramp with which to ascend to heaven. The RCs (as all churches) have a particular "slant" on how to reach there. Actually, now I've explained it more I've quite pleased with it. Still, smugness usually means I've made a mess!

Elderly;
how to cope?  --- he can't cope? or his flock?

I meant the former - but the latter may well be true, too. I was thinking especially of the diplomatic and pastoral tours which we became used to under the early years of Pope JP2.

Christocentric;
insufficient rope.  --- no flexibility?

Precisely. No slack. People will have to tow the right-wing line, I fear - that is how it was when he was JP2's "Enforcer." Of course, I'm not arguing that Christ should not be at the centre of the RC Church. (Up to them, anyway). But I think there should be a place for people, too.

Conservative;

...No
    Hope.  --- I knew we were talking politics! (sorry).

Sorry? That is the whole point of the poem - this is all about politics. Pastoral care and worship are what go on much further down the line.

>>Not sure how this could be improved on without wrecking your form (hehehe! - the aardvaarks are coming home to roost ) so I'll wait to see what you say in explanation of my confusion.

You're not confused at all. (Isotope maybe excepted - and my fault, there).

Thank you VERY MUCH for your very detailed comments and help. I'll look at that colon issue (!) soon.

I love the flying earth pigs, by the way - fab!

Thanks - much appreciated.

James.

Fran

[Guest_Nina_*]

Hi James

You express your opinion very succinctly in this poem.

European;
traditional isotope.
White;
ethnic biotope.I also would have liked to see a non-white, non-European pope being elected.  The choice of Pope Benedict must have been fairly unanimous given the speed of selection.

Male;
limited scope.rofl - absolutely

Catholic;
exclusive slope.I read your explanation to Fran and again I agree with you.  Catholics and Christians do not have exculsive rights to the "stairway to heaven" (to pinch a phrase from an excellent song)

Elderly;
how to cope?
personally, I think at 78 he won't be Pope for very long

Christocentric; wonderful word, inward looking.

insufficient rope....to hang themselves?

Conservative;yes, no changing policies to reflect the times we live in.

Oh dear!  It is a bit worrying that I seem to be agreeing with you on the whole of this poem!!!!

...No
     Hope.

Maybe next time there will be a young progressive black Pope  

Nina

[Guest_Jox_*]

Hi Nina,

Sorry I’ve taken so long to reply to you - thanks for your comments.

>>You express your opinion very succinctly in this poem.

Thank you.

>>I also would have liked to see a non-white, non-European pope being elected. The choice of Pope Benedict must have been fairly unanimous given the speed of selection.

It was a political fix (over many years). The previous Pope, JP2 appointed all save two of the cardinals. So virtually all  of the cardinals were of a similar mindset. The man behind (and in front) many of JP’s right-wing policies is the new Pope - a natural appointee, from that perspective.

Male;
limited scope

>>rofl - absolutely

See, I like to play to the galleries!

Catholic;
exclusive slope.

>>I read your explanation to Fran and again I agree with you. Catholics and Christians do not have exclusive rights to the "stairway to heaven" (to pinch a phrase from an excellent song)

Led Zep! Brill.

Indeed not. Agreed.

>>personally, I think at 78 he won't be Pope for very long

Such is axiomatic one suspects. But he is there now.

>>Christocentric; wonderful word, inward looking.

Yes, very much so. Glad you like it

insufficient rope....

>>to hang themselves?

LOL! I mean too little flexibility but the right-wingers in charge now would probably agree with your comment.

Conservative;

>>yes, no changing policies to reflect the times we live in.

Quite.

>>Oh dear! It is a bit worrying that I seem to be agreeing with you on the whole of this poem!!!!

Very scary indeed. I am so sorry for you!

...No
Hope.

>>Maybe next time there will be a young progressive black Pope

Possibly so, though the African nations’ people are four-square behind the previous Pope’s policies (and I see no change) on condom use. So if we’re to have a progressive black pope he may have to come from America or Europe again. Besides, the policies are killing so many people in Africa that one wonders if there will be any Africans from certain countries, alive to be elected at this rate. All very sad.

Thanks Nina!

J.

[Guest_Nina_*]

Hi James

Besides, the policies are killing so many people in Africa that one wonders if there will be any Africans from certain countries, alive to be elected at this rate. All very sad.

Mind you policies from the West have been trying to systematically kill off people in Africa for centuries.  

Sorry, but the children's novel I am reading now is set in the 1700s - Bristol and Jamaica - and deals with the inhumane treatment of Africans taken as slaves to work in the sugar plantations (as well as being about pirates) and is getting me somewhat angry.

Nina

[Aggiel]

James,

This is an interesting  piece of work which  I have seen around for sometime.
It is  compact and you do not even mince words. I have counted the words,
20 words altogether and make reading so much easier.

However , I think if you are to cut down words to allow
more volume of thoughts why not cut, " MALE AND CATHOLIC" ,
since these words are superfluous ?

It is not as if  a famale and non-Catholic can be chosen to be a Pope ?

Just my thought.

:costume:

All the best

Aggiel

[Guest_Jox_*]

Hi Nina,

Thanks for re-visiting.

"Besides, the policies are killing so many people in Africa that one wonders if there will be any Africans from certain countries, alive to be elected at this rate. All very sad."

>>Mind you policies from the West have been trying to systematically kill off people in Africa for centuries.

Indeed, they have. I know it is revisionist history but I have never been a fan of the British Empire. (Nor any empire).

>>Sorry,

Why "sorry" ? - I appreciate your comments very much.

>> but the children's novel I am reading now is set in the 1700s - Bristol and Jamaica - and deals with the inhumane treatment of Africans taken as slaves to work in the sugar plantations (as well as being about pirates) and is getting me somewhat angry.

As, indeed, it should. For it is only yesterday's experience, coupled with today's anger which guard against tomorrow's inhumanity.

Thank you Nina - a much appreciated follow-on.

J.

Nina

[Guest_Jox_*]

Hi Agatha,

Thanks for popping in and for your suggestions.

>>This is an interesting  piece of work which  I have seen around for sometime. It is compact and you do not even mince words. I have counted the words, 20 words altogether and make reading so much easier.

Thank you - I hadn't counted them. I'm surprised it is so brief.

>>However , I think if you are to cut down words to allow more volume of thoughts why not cut, " MALE AND CATHOLIC" , since these words are superfluous ? It is not as if  a female and non-Catholic can be chosen to be a Pope ? Just my thought.

Thanks, Agatha. I have thought carefully about your helpful suggestions though decided to decline both (for different reasons). I shall explain...

Why should the Pope not be a woman? It is only Church Law. I have discussed this at length with the monks who used to employ me and they tell me it only dates back a few hundred years - 13thC or such?? Just because there were no women at the Last Supper (Dan Brown in The Da Vinci Code - and others disagree anyway) why should the RC Church be all male? Here in the UK, the No1 church is The Church of England (Anglican). They do now have female priests - and many of them. Yet the Church still feels as holy as others. Why not a female Roman Catholic as Pope one day?

My poem was partly arguing for inclusively - how can the RC Church be inclusive if it excludes all women as its officers?

Point Two...

As regards "Catholic" - not even I would suggest that the RC Church lets non-Catholics be Pope. What I meant there was:

Why does this new Pope assume that Catholicism is the only (“exclusive”) ramp (“slope”) to Heaven? Why cannot other good Christians - and good non-Christians - find peace and salvation there? Why is he arrogant enough to presume it is a private club for dead Catholics? It’s like being in the Middle Ages - send in the missionaries to convert everyone.

(For the record, I do not believe in Heaven, nor Hell, but that is not relevant to the meaning of the poem).

Agatha, thank you very much for challenging me on these points - much appreciated. it forced me to explain - to myself as well. I appreciate it greatly.

All the best to you, too.

James.

[Aggiel]

Hi James,

Why not indeed, James. As you have mentioned, the Catholic church don't have even female priests. Why should there be a female Pope ? If you don't start the first note, you certainly  cannot come to the middle of a song...

My thinking is, if the Catholics have enough men to be priests , there is no reason to ordain women. We do have women playing a very important role in the church, the nuns.

I don't have to elaborate on the role, the nuns play in the church.They are just as important as the priests.

As for letting the non-Catholic to be a Pope, is a matter far  beyond my imaginations.  :medusa:

I must admit I have no argument for that point.

All the best

Aggiel

[Guest_Jox_*]

Hi Agatha,

Thanks for returning. Much appreciated.

>>Why not indeed, James. As you have mentioned, the Catholic church don't have even female priests. Why should there be a female Pope ? If you don't start the first note, you certainly  cannot come to the middle of a song...

Indeed.

>>My thinking is, if the Catholics have enough men to be priests , there is no reason to ordain women. We do have women playing a very important role in the church, the nuns. I don't have to elaborate on the role, the nuns play in the church. They are just as important as the priests.

Certainly nuns are very important - but they are the female equivalent of male monks. Nuns (and monks) are not ordained and cannot take masses etc. The priesthood is a separate entity and excludes women. Again, having worked for fifteen years with monks (and nuns too) I do have an insight into the excellent work which they do. (By the way, The Church of England has nuns, too, as well as female priests - but, not yet, female bishops - though they are here soon, I imagine).

In a sense I don't mind - the RC Church is not my "club" - I am an outsider. Therefore, on one level, being a liberal, I am perfectly content to shut up and let it conduct its own affairs. The problem is that it is not quite; it is always reaching out to people and affecting their lives. In which case, we all have a duty to speak up about its policies.

I think it is wrong that such an important body, affecting so many millions of people, should exclude 50% of the population to start with (before we even look at non Europeans etc).

>>As for letting the non-Catholic to be a Pope, is a matter far  beyond my imaginations.

LOL! I wasn't suggesting that... no, not even I was suggesting that. Mind you, that certainly would be forward-looking! Then again, you'd probably only get some top politician or management guru - so I'd stick with dedicated Catholics.

>>I must admit I have no argument for that point.

Good job I didn't make it then!

>>All the best

Thank you Agatha - and all the best to you, too.

James.

[Guest_Nina_*]

Hi James

The exclusion of women as priests is not only a Catholic phenomenon.  I reckon it is true for most of the major religions in the world.  If you look at the religions,  women seem to have a subordinate role.  One comment I have heard many a time is on the lines that religion was invented by men to keep women oppressed.  A way for men to dominate women

Nina

[Guest_Jox_*]

Hi Nina,

Thanks for returning.

>>The exclusion of women as priests is not only a Catholic phenomenon.  I reckon it is true for most of the major religions in the world.  If you look at the religions,  women seem to have a subordinate role.  One comment I have heard many a time is on the lines that religion was invented by men to keep women oppressed.  A way for men to dominate women

I entirely agree. And it is worrying that some of those ideas are coming here with various religious communities. However, my knowledge of Islam and Judaism and other religions is much poorer than my knowledge of Roman Catholicism - so I leave others to battle on those fronts.

In general, it is about time the medieval religions with their medieval ideas decided that we don't live in a medieval world any more. You never know - they might become even more popular.

Thanks!

James.

[Guest_Don_*]

Hi Jox,

I read some coments and decided to cut to the chase.  I basically agree with Toumai's review, because she said it first and said it well.  I agree with chemist copying isotope, they are no more original than church doctrine.  I think "slope" is lost as is.  Perhaps the typical pitfall of being ryhme driven. Along with the inflexibility of the terseness the direction of "slope" is questionable as to gradient up or down, straight up or down, or flat horizonal.

I liked to think "hope" was meant for the inflexible system incorporated hope of betterment.  Your ending of no hope I think is to final and too judgemental.

The entire Christian motif has been anti-female for centuries.  In ignorance I attribute it to perpetuation of ancient Greek influence with their bias against women as evident in their Pandora mythologies.

The terseness like quick jabs is very effective.  The theme is perhaps too heavy with bashing.  Are the Catholics alone in perpetuating a failing system? Is it and others really failing or does hope apply for a temporary setback or dip?

Your poem is effective anti-catholic side of the debate.

Now you are apprised of what little I think as well as how little. Except for the slope and hope, it stands well poetically with me.

Don

[Guest_Jox_*]

Hi Don,

Thanks very much for your visit and your comments - both much appreciated.

>>I read some comments and decided to cut to the chase.  I basically agree with Toumai's review, because she said it first and said it well.  I agree with chemist copying isotope, they are no more original than church doctrine.  I think "slope" is lost as is.  Perhaps the typical pitfall of being rhyme driven. Along with the inflexibility of the terseness the direction of "slope" is questionable as to gradient up or down, straight up or down, or flat horizontal.

Well, actually part of the reason for using “slope” (in addition to the rhyme) was so readers could think of slopes to Heaven and Hell and slippery slopes etc. So I’m rather pleased you saw the various possibilities - thank you.

In general, I agree with you about rhyme - I seldom use it.

>>I liked to think "hope" was meant for the inflexible system incorporated hope of betterment.  Your ending of no hope I think is to final and too judgemental.

Ah well that is the benefit of writing, rather than reading - one can shove one’s ideas at people! I really have no hope in this Pope - but, if I’m wrong I shall (as I’ve mentioned before) be delighted. I am reading Terry Prachett at the moment (“Going Postal”) and he makes the Pandora point, too.

>>The entire Christian motif has been anti-female for centuries.  In ignorance I attribute it to perpetuation of ancient Greek influence with their bias against women as evident in their Pandora mythologies.

LOL! I just mentioned her. You’re right about the centuries - but not just Christian, as Nina mentioned - Islam, Judaism and many other religions. Having said that, more modern Christian religions - such as Anglicanism and Methodism are improving greatly.

>>The terseness like quick jabs is very effective.  The theme is perhaps too heavy with bashing.  Are the Catholics alone in perpetuating a failing system? Is it and others really failing or does hope apply for a temporary setback or dip?

Catholics per se are not my target. I know many fine Catholics - they are entitled to worship howsoever they choose (fine or not!)

My target is the political Roman Catholic upper hierarchy. All those Cardinals appointed by JP2 and thinking in that way. Plus, of course, the “top” ex Cardinal - the Pope, himself.

I cannot see a temporary set back because I have never had much respect for the upper echelon of the RC Church. In Medieval times we had the Inquisition, then corruption and wealth-acquisition; in WWII how did they oppose the Nazis? (They didn’t - quite in contrast to many individual priests, nuns and monks who did). One could say they are better now than before - but a long way behind looking after their flock.

>>Your poem is effective anti-catholic side of the debate.

Thanks for your kindness Don - but I am not anti-Catholic. Really, I’m not. I don’t think I could have worked for and, sometime, been a housemaster at a RC School for fifteen years if I had been anti-Catholic. But I ask myself, how are the top men serving Catholics and the rest of the World? My only answer is “badly.”

I personally am an atheist - so I have no need to be against people who practice their religion - I have nothing to convert them to (“Follow me to... nowhere”). In fact, I rather envy many Catholics - devout ones see life after death - I would rather like to believe in that, myself. All I can look forward to is not seeing the daises which I hope to push up. Yup, I’m willing to become a Catholic myself, if it comes with new improved instant belief - it works with atheists or your money back.

So, no, nothing anti-Catholics from me. Sorry to confuse. (I think many protestants are anti-Catholic though).

>>Now you are apprised of what little I think as well as how little. Except for the slope and hope, it stands well poetically with me.

Thank you, Don. Maybe the hope slid off the slope - which was pointing downwards?

James.