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Guest_ohsteve_*
post Nov 16 09, 21:59
Post #1





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Breathe in, breathe out, ah...
Autumn never smelt so fresh,
so where is the snow?

Nov. 16, 09
© Steve Pray
 
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Larry
post Dec 29 09, 11:18
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Referred By:Just wondered in.



Hi Steve,

I came by to refute "Scarab's" snide remark about this being a Senyru and something about animals don't talk but it is no longer here!!!! It is not a Senyru because it is neither ironic nor satirical. From what I can gather, those are the requisites for that type of poem and its similarity to Haiku in structure. Don't know where his/her comments went but am happy they are gone.

Now, to give you an actual critique:

First, you are, in S1 telling the reader, not showing him/her what you want to imply. One must be careful when making an observation so as to maintain objectivity. You don't want to interject your own thoughts/conclusions about that observation; let the readers feel that "aha" moment themselves. Perhaps you might describe your breath on a crisp and chilly Autumn day.

Breath rises in clouds or Scents ride the cold breeze or something along those lines.

L2 - Don't name the season; use seasonally descriptive words known as kigo in Japanese. These words will place your observations in a specific season, time or place without your having to "tell" the reader.

L3 - Don't ask; merely report in an objective way what is happening or what you are feeling now: Snow will be here soon or some such observation.

You have the meat of an excellent Haiku "IMHO" but you need to work on it a bit.

Larry



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When power leads man toward arrogance, poetry reminds him of his limitations. When power narrows the areas of man's concern, poetry reminds him of the richness and diversity of his existence. When power corrupts, poetry cleanses.
John Fitzgerald Kennedy



Kindness is a seed sown by the gentlest hand, growing care's flowers.
Larry D. Jennings

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Guest_ohsteve_*
post Dec 29 09, 21:37
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Larry, thanks for reading and the comments. Scarab is no longer a member of MM and all his posts have been delete for just the reasons you saw. I was ignoring him while trying to get this accomplished. It has also brought about some changes, that you may read in Nero's, posted by Lori.

Now as to haiku/ Senyru... I have been doing a lot of reading ever since I first became aquainted with this form. There certainly seems to be a lot of debate both pro and con on what is and is not haiku/senyru. I am going to play devil's advocate a bit here.

I first learned the traditional translated way of writing hiaku, but I kept being told I had to actually use the name of a season. Then I was told no use an implied form of the season as you suggest. I am not saying what you state is wrong, but is there a formalized english version of haiku/senyru...?

I have also been told it has to be 5/7/5, then someone else says no as long as only fifteen sylables are used, then someone else says no 17 can be used.

As far as the tell/show thing I am becoming like Sylvia on that... does it really matter if I tell instead of show? Maybe it was my intention to tell? Doesn't trying to show sometimes become so obtuse that the imagery goes way off into left field? As long as the writers idea gets across, I sometime would rather the reader know exactly what I want, rather than trying to guess away.

ie..if I said: a bloody sliced muscle, chared,infested with fungoid, soaked in animal fat, with sharp bitter shallot...
doesn't sound half as nice as a: tender, juicy sirloin, grilled over a mesquite fire, smoothered in sautéed mushrooms and onions; now does it.
Therefor isn't my word choice and the way I write it as important?

Ok I am through with the devil now. I understand this is a japenese form that is trying to be followed as closely as possible in English, but if we are going to adhere as closely as posssible to that form in calling it Hiaku or Senyru, then can we as 'stealers' from all languages not also reinterpret this form to our own usage and maybe come with a different name/ different rules?
And aren't rules made to be broken?

I really do appreciate your critique Larry, very very much. It has just given me lots of questions, and yes if I were to follow the strictest rule then this is no where near a hiaku.
I am really interested in this format, maybe we could call ours Ameriku or Hiaus Senstates or Musiku Mosaiku
Sensaics, Hiamuse...

Hesitant cloud hangs
damp against frost bit leaves.
White flakes will soon fall.

As per your suggestions.

Thanks for letting me vent on this.
Steve
 
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Guest_ohsteve_*
post Dec 29 09, 21:42
Post #4





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Maybe we should just call it three line free form/free verse?
 
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Larry
post Dec 30 09, 00:40
Post #5


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Referred By:Just wondered in.



Hey Steve,

You are probably right about renaming this form because no matter how hard we try, we will never (due to our language limitations/translations) be able to come close to Basho or Buson and their peers. That doesn't mean we should just quit but perhaps we should look to writers and translators like Lee Gurga's Haiku: A Poet's Guide, William J. Higginson's The Haiku Handbook, or James W. Hackett's The Way of Haiku.

As for the question of 5-7-5; Shigehisa Kuriyama wrote in the Kodansha Encyclopedia of Japan that 5-7-5 by itself doesn't make a Haiku. That arrangement applies only to Traditional haiku in Japanese. Such a set syllabic form does not apply to Western languages because Japanese sound symbols are not equal to syllables.

As Merlin likes to say...There 'tis!

I've read that haiku is a partnership between writer and reader. I know what my feelings are when writing haiku but I should only express things that caused me to have those feelings. The reader may then come to the same conclusions and have similar emotions when reading that haiku.

This is becoming a bit too preachy so I will stop. I do want to let you know about a book I've poured over which has helped me a lot. Higginson's "Haiku World" has a wonderful listing of "Seasonal Words" which denote certain times of the year and those words are recognized universally as pertaining to specific seasons. Heck, you can still name the season if you want to as I have done on occasion but I'm slowly edging over to Higginson's way of letting the reader come to his own ephipany.

A silent morning
Icicles point to the ground
Covered in new snow

This one came to me when watching stories about that weather pounding the Northeastern USA.

Larry


·······IPB·······

When power leads man toward arrogance, poetry reminds him of his limitations. When power narrows the areas of man's concern, poetry reminds him of the richness and diversity of his existence. When power corrupts, poetry cleanses.
John Fitzgerald Kennedy



Kindness is a seed sown by the gentlest hand, growing care's flowers.
Larry D. Jennings

MM Award Winner
 
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Thoth
post Dec 30 09, 04:10
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Dear Steve,

This is defiantly a haiku as it refers to a season. I loved the idea and the inhaling of winter air but for me it infers that Autumn is still present thus the expectation of snow is premature in spite of the freshness of the air,

I too feel if we change the layout of a form, we cannot continue to call it by the same name. For me I like the traditional way.

Where I live on the Highveld, we have cold winters but I have only experienced a real snowfall twice in my life. Right now, I am near the Kalahari with day temperatures approaching 40C in the shade and the camel-thorns have never seen snow.

Closing my eyes, I attempted a winter haiku using my flaky imagination;

“Stripped of their splendour
blackened oaks, humbled by frost
await new white cloaks.”


Thank you for that!
Cheers,
Wally


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Thoth
post Dec 30 09, 04:56
Post #7


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From: South Africa
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Real Name: Walter Schwim
Writer of: Poetry & Prose
Referred By:Mistral



Nice thing about haiku is they keep spawning more. I like your last one!


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Guest_ohsteve_*
post Dec 30 09, 13:01
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Larry and Wally, thanks my friends. Larry I didn't want to get preachy either, it just becomes frustrating when trying to express things the words come out but never quite the way I wish...lol. As I said before I really do appreciate the critique and don't wish it to stop, because it does generate questions in my mind and now I have something else to go read and ponder about. Yes these things to tend to inspire the writing of others...lol.

Steve
 
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