Poetic Opinions, general discussion Options

[Guest_Don_*]

Posted by Don on January 28, 2006

Dear Ron,

To my chagrin what you say about academians stressing free verse and crushng the key feature of meter with syllable count is true around this neck of the woods.  I belong to a writer's club consisting of a high percentage of teachers and their students.  My last submission was blank verse in iambic pentameter.  I was taken by surprise when a student mentioned that he did not see why iambic pentameter was employed.  I explained to him that to my knowledge iambic pentameter was very proper for blank verse.  "I could be wrong now," as popularized by a situation program on TV.

To compound my distress, two teachers requested that it be rewritten in free verse so that they could better understand what was said.  I would have torn some hair from by head, except follicals are already gone.  One advised using anapest.  

Being trained in hardcore iambic, I tend to be terse and avoid double connectors such as, "and the, or while, etc." that bends toward conversational mode, which is a free verse bias.  The prevelant argument for anapest over iambic seems to be the popular insistence on extra connectors.

I would like to discuss your lines below as regarding anapest.  Firstly, the anapest works very well.  I read the second line as the only pure anapest, which happens to be three feet.  The softer endings of lines one and three destroy the pure anapest to me.  Am I wrong?  Line one is a mix of anapest/ iambic/ peon (one stress in four).

Your choice of chaTEAU is perfect.  The pleasant deviation from primary meter is well placed. Am I wrong to scan "of my chaTEAU" as a one stress in four peon.  

when the MOON peeks Over the LAKEside
and the STARS come aLIVE with their GLOW,
then the SMILE on my FACE i must MAKE wide
as i PEER from the PORCH of my chaTEAU.

Looking forward to enlightenment.

Don

Posted by Ron/dgdittier on January 30, 2006
Dear Don,
Lately I have become more interested in writing about verse than in writing verse itself.
You give me a great opportunity.
I'm becoming more and more fascinated by any parallels between music and verse. No one, even the advocates of free verse, especially they) have emphasized a connection between their free verse and music. I can't read music but I'm sure my ears can detect the difference between music and noise. (I'm amazed that apparently so many young people can't discern the difference.)
I've been writing verse now for just about 5 years and I'm finding my intent more and more favoring the musical aspects of verse.
I've always thought of marches and waltzes as my favorites and have been trying to emulate them in my verse.
When I write in anapest I think I hear a waltz! It may be the onset of alzheimers, but if I can maintain that meter, even with the necessary
divergences such as the "chateau" caused, I fall in love with my own pieces.
I find too, that my tastes prefer alternating but repetitive lines of differing length, usually even to odd.
I'm always open to writing in ballad meter with internal rhymes:
-/-/a-/-/a
-/-/-/-b
-/-/c-/-/c
-/-/-/-b
so when you see one of these appear, you'll know I'm a happy camper.
I suppose it's obvious I've never had any schooling in poem writing which I consider a great boon in that academia has not poisoned
my taste for real poetry the way the bards of yore wrote it.
It amazes me that academia has so much trouble understanding the
ploys of those bards of yore and now like their poetry written more like a newspaper report. They of all should be promoting our rich poetic heritage instead of treating it as a now passed fancy.
Cheers,   Ron  jgd

Posted by Ron on January 30, 2006
Dear Don,
Pardon the gush.
Verse for me is both the joy of my life and the greatest frustration as I see one of mankind's most glorious institutions (poetry) being stripped of its essentials and thrown on the scrap heap of history.
"A pleasant deviation from primary meter" was the thrust of your question. For me, I prefer what I call repetitive mixed meter. Repetitive in that after the first stanza, the reader should be able to predict where the accents fall and the rhyme pairs occur. Occasional exceptions due to necessity or where they add to the piece, but as rare as possible. "Chateau" in this case was a necessity as I couldn't
avoid "of my". How I'd like to condense it into one unstressed syllable!
You've given me a thought! The cabin's name should be changed to "One Unstressed Syllable"
Hope I've answered your question this time.
Cheers,   Ron  jgd

Posted by Don on January 30, 2006
Dear Ron,

I did not get your opinion of the peon--one stress in four--applicable to your first stanza example.

I too am glad not to have been poisoned by popular formal poetry trends or creative writing classes.  I did purchase and study The Great Courses tapes, How to Read and Understand Poetry by Professor Willard Spiegelman.  I firmly believe Americans (USA) are drinking the toxic water more than Europeans.  I am also being mentored by an elderly lady (my age) who usually insists upon strict iambic and definitely sticks to rhyme and meter forms.

Academically many of the forms are misleading insisting on syllable count.  A  special case is that iambic meter and syllable count match, which are stressed  for medium level students without differentiating; but one eventually must choose between syllables per line or metric feet per line.  I think the better poets wean themselves away from counting syllables and employ number of feet per line.  Syllables are a stepping stone just like iambic is a stepping stone.  Iambic became predominant when most people frequently read the King James Bible.  That meter has since become less conversational.  

Expecting poetry to be conversational is another personal chagrin.

I think the professional poets have ultimate control over meter and the academic experts do not want to be bothered.

Cheers

Don

Posted by Ron on January 31, 2006
Dear Don,
The option to discuss our thoughts about poetry is an enticement I can't refuse.
You are interested in the mechanics of poetry, so we are soul -brothers even if our thoughts differ. At least we care!!!
I've much to learn, so I ask first, what in detail do you mean by not being poisoned?
You've mentioned sources for poetic thought that I would surely want to obtain and study if you think them worthy. I've only 'till now my inner voice to rely on.
As to iambic, I'm committed to repetitive meter, but not only iambic. Longfellow writes much in triple beat which sets off similar vibrations in me. I believe the other three feet have their place and are under-used even by the bards of yore whom I admire greatly.
As to conversational anything, I'd keep it far from poetry/verse. P/V is much too majestic to sound in any way like prose or conversation. I want P/V to be as unlikre them as possible. I too am chagrinned.
I don't know why academia is generally devoid of their own opinions of what makes poetry sublime, but by stealing away from poetry its ploys and the characteristics that differentiate it from common prose
are doing the arts no favor.
I fear this topic should be located elsewhere, not about a cabin/chateau in the boonies.
Cheers,   Ron  jgd
--------------------------------

[Guest_Don_*]

Dear Ron,

I believe everyone cares. The issue is what do we care about.

I consider myself a throwback regarding the details being cared about.  I learned poetry outside the USA schools, and thereby, escaped being indoctrinated in toxins of free verse, conversational mode, and being innovative and creative as possible.  I have been fortunate to be guided by a few really good amatuer European poets and my current mentor in Texas is a reasonably hard core rhyme and meter enthusiast.  She insists on what is easy for her to review and takes us to contest winning level.  In my case winning contests and being traditionally published is less satisfying than mastering self satisfaction.

I do enjoy some well written free verse, but as professor Willard Spiegelman said in a lecture, one must know what they are doing to write it well and that is rare.  His analysis was primarily on the romantic and first half 20th century poets.

And so my bias is set as I learn nuances of the art from others as well as pondering my inner voice.  For instance it is my conclusion that mastering meter more than syllable count is superior.  

I do not recommend any specific texts or poets to study.  I only intended to outline my foundation bias.  

I gained an insight as to why teachers take the easy road teaching poetry.  A neighboring community was blessed with a known Ohio poet whom acquired a grant to introduce poetry to various grammar schools.  The students were preteens and teens who are reticent to express emotions.  The instructors goal is to draw them out to express themselves.  Free verse is easiest form as it allows illusion of being free of tons of details they have little time to explore.  Why the college level continues the practice I do not know.  The literary world of professional prose critics and writers is a modern Gordian knot, which I fail to fathom.  They are tightly entangled to the point that I don't care.  In poetry I know what I like and I know what I prefer to pursue.

I would like to expand my practical grasp and practice of meter beyond iambic and would like to pay less attention to relative easy syllable counting. I am certain Robert Service mastered meter more than icus sums.

Hopefully a few such as yourself may lead me or support experimentation in desired growth.  I am very much a beginner and know enough to be dangerous to myself.  Let us keep the wagons together in this strange land.

Cheers   Don

[jgdittier]

Dear Don,
Having one to discuss this topic in detail is a joy I've rarely experienced over these five years. We're in a world of political correctness where toleration is supreme at all costs. It's not that toleration is bad, it's that tolerating the bad is not so good and also that those requiring the toleration are that good at returning the favor.

Five years ago, when I first started surfing the net for poetry I was amazed to see so little "conventional" R&M, old style poetry. I learned I was supposed to revise my thinking, promote message over presentation. OK, I said, I'll accept living in the past and being so thought of.
Then more realizations came along and I found that the ploys of the bards of yore were now to be found as poor practice. I believe in trying to squash R&M the modern powers realized that to deal the death blow, they had to demean the ploys that made R&M possible. In order to maintain a beat, in order to provide the rhyme, ploys such as elisions, inversions, words serving to maintain the beat, well worn words (cliches), punctuation, etc. were used as necessary for R&M.
So if one intends to destroy R&M, why not remove those ploys from acceptable use. Handicap that remaining R&M writer so as to frustrate him if he yields to the modern restrictions. Meanwhile, in order to promote FV, why not become tolerant of all new ideas, even those that are in conflict with English grammar such as punctuation and capitalization.
I other greatly disturbing factor; with FV has come rapidly declining respect and appreciation of our poetic heritage. Out goes the baby with the bath water! Once Milton and Byron and Keats are written off as mere mummies, will these same forces set their sights on the three B's, maintaining that this is the age of the guitar and small combo?

Your insights above give me hope that there are still some forces left to defend our heritage. I'd appreciate hearing what you know about the European situation. I hope they're not just following America's lead.
Seems to me there is still a symbolic flock of sheep pursuing R&M but where is our shepherd?

May we hitch our wagons in this strange land!
Cheers,    ron   jgd

[Guest_Don_*]

Poetic verse related to musical verse:

Ron/jgd wrote:
I'm becoming more and more fascinated by any parallels between music and verse. No one, even the advocates of free verse, especially they) have emphasized a connection between their free verse and music. I can't read music but I'm sure my ears can detect the difference between music and noise. (I'm amazed that apparently so many young people can't discern the difference.)
I've been writing verse now for just about 5 years and I'm finding my intent more and more favoring the musical aspects of verse.
I've always thought of marches and waltzes as my favorites and have been trying to emulate them in my verse.
When I write in anapest I think I hear a waltz!

Don/Don response:
There are parallels between word melody and musical melody.  Though I find the latter extendable in a series more than say the vocal English language.  Beats like drums and metric meter are comparable both for repetitive timing and change of pace.  Poetry requires more practice and exposure because it does not evoke a natural impetus to dance.

Though I can't read or sing music, like Albert Einstein, I gain inspiration from the classics.  I've been told that I have a musical ear because I readily discern voices transmitted by telephone.  Only someone trained in music would know.  

Any hoo, the verbal lyrics seem to be the closest parallel.  I listen to country and western, ballads, and folk songs for the rhyme and interplay of words and phrases. One can hear some terrible rhyme and would-be-rhyme combinations in commercial composition.  One listens to musical lyrics to improve phrasology and smooth rhyme combinations.

Yes, we agree how few poets or musical writers see the close parallels. I stumbled across two song writers delving into poetry for potential improvement.  I suspect due to the level of contributors neither hung around.

In the drama field a host of traditional facial expressions, voice inflections, and gestures are repeated as needed to convey the art.  Music also has tones, instruments and repeatable features that convey wind, storm, pastorial, sea, peace, conflict, etc.  Poetry is the poorer of these three perhaps due to our propensity to avoid cliché.  Maybe poetry isn't as paltry as I say because it is my lacking tricks of the trade.

Any additional input anyone?

Don

[Guest_Don_*]

Dear Ron/jgd,

Our wagons are hitched.  I also throughly enjoy having someone to discuss underlying issues and details of poetry.  Among my limited European connections were a middle age Dutchman expert in computer IT, a late middle age Spainish lady, who lectured all over Europe before retiring, and a young Swedish teacher.  All three prefered rhyme and meter and forms.  Each demonstrated exceptional skill writing poetry and seemed knowledgable during Internet discussions.  I assumed their education considerably different than conventional poetic instruction in our country.  I've also encountered what I consider top-drawer amatuer poets residing in UK.  A few once frequented these MM halls.  I miss them dearly.  Again you see my bias based on limited experience.

As a retired engineer accustomed to juggling lots of detail, the more demanding R & M fits my personality.  I only say more demanding from the aspect of accumulated rules one may address.  Free verse surely can be as demanding, if practitioners wish it.  The popularity of R & M waned after Robert Frost.  The modern trend to follow is free verse. As with everything only a few good exist.  We agree that R & M is distained.  Remember the two ways to get ahead.  Improve yourself and/or destroy reputation of competition.

Coming from the technical world, I miss a classical education, and most fellow engineers laugh at poetry.

From Internet archives and various contests, R & M is far from buried.  Locating earlier masters in archives is a boon.  I'm not so certain I would have enjoyed T.S. Eliot as our shepherd.   Let me graze in free range pasture.  

Till next time,

Don

[Guest_Jox_*]

Hi Gents -

Forgive me for not joining in your conversation - for several reasons but mainly lack of time, some ignorance and no musical ear. However, I just wanted to highlight one phrase that stuck out:

"toxins of free verse"

That's brilliant and I would love to use it some time. I first laughed at it then thought about it. One can spot a poet - they can come-up with amazing phrases which really stand out - and that's one. Brill!

Anyway, sorry not to contribute but thanks for the read. fascinating discussion.

Cheers, J.

[Guest_Don_*]

Welcome Jox/James,

Glad you spotted us over in this corner whining in our beer and whiskey.

Since you are less of a R&M advocate what might you say in defense of free verse for example?

Since you are resident of UK, can you give us an opinion of what poetry educaton trend consists in UK or perhaps Europe?

Do you miss Allen and John with their expertise in R&M forms?  I've never found an Internet site similar to MM blessed with too many helpful experts in meter and form.  Seems we have attracted some high caliber blood in Mary and Cyn.

We know you are a busy chap.  You are invited to tarry a spell with a mug of ginger beer.

Don

[Guest_Jox_*]

>D> Welcome Jox/James,

Hello Don and Ron - and thanks, very much, Don for your warm welcome.

>D> Glad you spotted us over in this corner whining in our beer and whiskey.

I could smell the aroma!

>D> Since you are less of a R&M advocate what might you say in defense of free verse for example?

I'm not really an advocate of any sort of poetry, to be honest - nor any sort of writing. I think it's horses for the proverbial courses. Since you two prefer various forms and R&M that is right for you. Since a playwright writes plays that is best for them.

I'm not sure I would defend free verse, to be honest. Does it need defending?

some comments;

a) The message in writing is, for me, what counts and I think poetry can convey messages very well. (that is why I try to write poetry at all).

b) Despite trying many times (thanks for your efforts, Ron) I cannot hear any beat in sounds. Ok there are exceptions - there is a British rock band, called "Status Quo" which I really like and I can hear a rhythm in much of their output and also in Auden's "Night Mail" and Eliot's "Skimbleshanks - The Railway Cat." Other than that I'm pretty deaf to rhythms. A waltz was mentioned earlier in this tile. Well, I've never heard any rhythm in a waltz - but, as you say it is there, I'm sure you're right. So I can never use R&M. But, of course, much free verse does use R&M - it is not a preserve of form poetry, as I think we sometimes assume.

c) I struggle to see the reason to put words into set forms. Now, if I could see R&M I think I would understand that - but as I cannot... Also, I'm innumerate - I hate Maths and numbers. I don't see patterns in things. When mathematicians say there is beauty in patterns I simply laugh in incredulity - I see any pattern as a constraint. As I said elsewhere recently, I dislike rules in anything. Some are essential, of course, to protect people, animals and environments. But beyond that...

All the above is from my writer's perspective. From my reader's perspective it is different - I read whatever is written and then decide what I think of it. So, for example, whilst I would think it pointless my attempting (say) a Limerick - and I have tried - that does not mean I cannot laugh at the humorous results of Limericks by other people. I am unlikely to see any R&M but the words / phrases can be funny and, if a Limerick format helped the writers write it then the form did a good job.

So, as I said, I wouldn't defend free verse, nor especially advocate it. It is whatever suits the writer in question. Some people like yachting and others cross-country running. I think they are both wrong; there are better sports - but that is only my perspective; it doesn't mean that any sports needs defending. Again, those horses for courses.

>D> Since you are resident of UK, can you give us an opinion of what poetry education trend consists in UK or perhaps Europe?

UK - Sorry, Don; I have no idea. I have only taught poetry to 11-14 year olds and then not spent ages on it (as I taught it as part of English lessons). Mind you, some youngsters can be excellent poets - far better than I (may not be difficult!) I do not follow poetry education at all.

As regards Europe, I'm afraid I know far less about Europe than I do about the USA. I am far more interested in the States than about anything going on in Europe.

>D> Do you miss Allen and John with their expertise in R&M forms?

I am very much afraid that I can't think who you mean by "John," sorry. The only possible candidate might be Tom - had the nick-name Akananam II (or similar - I'm sure Lori could put me right - it was Egyptological - Nefretti's hubby). His name is Tom Vernon-Jones and he lives in the Liverpool area where the Beatles come from). Is it he? If so, I can't contact him in any way at all, I'm afraid. I fear ill-health may have got the worse of him. And, if it is him, you're right he was a big loss to MM (and all the other sites he was on).

Alan - yes, I am very sorry he's no longer here - though at least, as far as I know, he's in good health. I think Cathy (on MM) is in contact with him if you wish to ask her. Alan is also an excellent poet (as is Tom) and a very good critter to boot.

>D> I've never found an Internet site similar to MM blessed with too many helpful experts in meter and form.  Seems we have attracted some high caliber blood in Mary and Cyn.

Well, I don't think any site can have too much helpful expertise in anything.  Yes, it is excellent that new blood has arrived. (I think I learnt that line from Count Dracula).

>D> We know you are a busy chap.  You are invited to tarry a spell with a mug of ginger beer.

Well since you put it that way, thank you; I'd be delighted. Ah! I just did!

Thanks and cheers, now.

James.

Don

[Guest_Don_*]

DearJox/James,

Thanks for sharing.

Yes, the man I named John actually is Tom.  Sorry to hear his health failed.  Thanks for the correction.

I am not an enemy of free verse.  Since you use it most, I thought you could outline your preference as to why.  I suspect it is because you do not grasp the other forms to you satisfaction.  

All the above is retorical requiring no answer.

Don

[Guest_Jox_*]

Hi Don,

>D> Yes, the man I named John actually is Tom.  Sorry to hear his health failed.  Thanks for the correction.

Ah glad I guessed right. Yes it is a great shame.

>D> I am not an enemy of free verse.  Since you use it most, I thought you could outline your preference as to why.  I suspect it is because you do not grasp the other forms to you satisfaction.

I certainly cannot see R&M - but, as I said, they are involved in much free verse too so that isn't the real reason.

In terms of writing, I actually write far more words in prose than I do in any form of poetry. And I think you flatter me - many other people write more free verse than I - Nina, for example, is more prolific.

Ok, to answer your point, I'll put it this way... does a jet pilot spend his working hours in a cockpit because he could never grasp how to perfrom brain surgery?

Or, another perspective: being afraid of the sight of sap may not be the reason that all lawyers are not tree surgeons.

As I said, horses for courses. :)

I would add that I haven't yet managed to write perfect free verse - there is much to learn here.

Thanks, Cheers, J.

[jgdittier]

Dear Don and Jox,
What interesting reading you two produce!
Cheers,   Ron   jgd

[Guest_Jox_*]

:) Cheers, Ron.

J.