A Recipe for Verse By Me***, Member Choice ~ Wizard Awards Options

[jgdittier]

Member Choice Award Winner

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*Graphic provided by
Celtic Castle Designs

First a letter, then a word
and now a sentence thought...
Has in fact a start occurred
from which some verse be wrought?

Once a stanza now be writ
let's locate das and dums.
Slash and dash a form, be it.
When filled it sings, it strums.

Rhyme?, it must, if j g d's.
A scheme be now assigned.
Vow, must I, I'll them appease
or I shall be maligned.

Yore's the time I must promote,
our taste today will fade.
Milton, make this boat to float
Don't rain on my parade.

Windmills may be ready ploys
for questers just like me.
Poems come from men, not boys.
You may, or not, agree.



"|1124640857 -->

[Guest_Don_*]

Hi Ron,

Upon first read, I like rhythm and subject.

I just know some gender will object to next to last lline.

Milton made this boat to float
seems better to me.

I've taken the liberty of a copy to scan for my own enlightenment.

Intend to return.


Don

[JustDaniel]

Dear Ron...

Those missing upbeats seem to cause
my heart to skip a beat;
poetic license for your jaws
is yours, though, I’d repeat.

I've also copped your bit o’ cheek
to spin it ‘round my tongue;
I shall be back before the week
is but a song’s been sung.

You’ll ne’er dumb down your ditties, though…
I know you all too well;
you’d rather die than freely throw
your meter all to hell!

Lightly scanning for now, Daniel  

[jgdittier]

Dear Don,
Responses so soon are starting to scare me. Perhaps for those yet to read my ditty I should explain.
I really do follow that protocol. In anything I write not borrowed from 3 or 4 years ago, you can be sure my scanscion has gotten more of my attention than anything else.
Most nowdays go for message first, but I make a form, fill it with words and might just be as surprized as the reader.
Not sure what you mean by gender problems unless I need additional lines for ladies not maids?
Make is there as I'm imploring Milton to stand by me as he's a bard of yore.

Dear Don,
You know me (my style) better than anyone else here!

Dear All,
This recipe is not assumed to result in a gourmet meal for most. I'd be more popular if this were 1932, when I was born. I just didn't change with the times.

Cheers to all,     jgd

[Guest_Don_*]

Well, Ron, I think you protest too much about being outdated.
Seriously, I am certain you are justified in informing those unfamiliar with your specialty.

If I could find an isle of accentual verse poets, that would be my residence forever.  Not too many Saxons around and I don't speak their tongue either.

You have found an idylic island and I am not one to spoil it for you as an unwanted missionary.  I was born in 1936 with no formal education in poetry.
I am somewhat of a Luddite in styles and forms poetry have taken.  Nothing stands still, and I would be hard pressed to really appreciate Homer in his original meter.  

Heaven knows there is more than enough variety for us to settle upon to enjoy.  Eat the pastry, toss the hardtack.

I am very much interested in improving my mechanics and will be placing my personal scansion of your poem in this thread, knowing you conscientiously practice excellent meter.  Hopefully, you and a few others might have time to yank me straight. You have incorporated a very regular pattern of iambs and trochees.  Very admirable, master.

Don

[Guest_Don_*]

First a letter, then a word
Trochee trochee trochee monosyllable
and now a sentence thought...
Iamb iamb iamb
Has in fact a start occurred
Trochee trochee trochee monosyllable
from which some verse be wrought?
Iamb iamb iamb

Once a stanza now be writ
Trochee trochee trochee monosyllable
let's locate das and dums.
Iamb iamb iamb
Slash and dash a form, be it.
Trochee trochee trochee monosyllable
When filled it sings, it strums.
Iamb iamb iamb

Rhyme?, it must, if j g d's.
Trochee trochee trochee monosyllable
A scheme be now as signed.
Iamb iamb iamb
Vow, must I, I'll them appease
Monosyllable iamb iamb iamb
or I shall be maligned.
Iamb iamb iamb

Yore's the time I must promote,
Monosyllable iamb iamb iamb
our taste to day will fade.
Iamb iamb iamb
Milton, make this boat to float
Trochee trochee trochee monosyllable
Don't rain on my parade.
Iamb iamb iamb

Windmills may be ready ploys
Trochee trochee trochee monosyllable
for questers just like me.
Iamb iamb iamb
Poems come from men, not boys.
Spondee iamb iamb
You may, or not, agree.
Iamb iamb iamb


LINE       FEET
1.............4
2.............3
3.............4
4.............3
5.............4
6.............3
7.............4
8.............3
9.............4
10...........3
11...........4
12...........3
13...........4
14...........3
15...........4
16...........3
17...........4
18...........3
19...........3....exception to pattern--important line
20...........3

Lines alternate between tetrameter and trimeter except for line 19.

Above scansion of metric feet is strictly my own.  Others may not agree.

If anyone is willing I desire more education via discussion.

Don

[JustDaniel]

Ron and Don,

please know that neither of you are getting any criticism from me.  I'm in the same boat, but I need a bit of edumacation here, it seems:

I don't know what the difference is between

troche, troche, troche, monosyllable
and
monosyllable, iamb, iamb, iamb

To me they seem exactly the same thing... but that's probably becasue I have never been educated in poetry either.  In fact, until about three years ago, I didn't even know what an iamb was!

Iamb more ignorant than most
about the verse I love
and anything that I could boast
comes from the One above.

And Don's 'exception' in line 19 comes from his taking 'Poems' to be one syllable, while Ron and I read it as having two, methinks.

If I were writing in the pattern that you have written here, Ron, sharing the very way in which you write your poetry ( rather similar to the origin of many of my own poems, I might add! ), I might share something like this:

Mary had a thing for lambs
that many didn't konw;
Ron, however, loves iambs,
as anyone can show.

Trochee's tricky; it can trip
or sound like nurs'ry rhyme
joined this way with iamb chips
hand-dipped in wry and thyme.

So...

on my further read, as expected, I do appreciate your revelations here in perfect meter and rhyme.  I was just tripped up by the pattern on my first read.  Unless I were writing something intentionally sing-songish, I'd likely not write in this pattern.  I think you've created here what I've done on several occasions myself:  written a serious piece with a serious bit o' cheek on your tongue.

Gotta love it!

deLightingly, Daniel  

P.S.  I'm surprised to learn that both of you are older than this old dude.  I was born in 1945 -- 60 this coming October.

[jgdittier]

Dear Don,
Thank-you,thank-you!
You are the first to ever post your version of the scansion of my verse in 4+ years! I am honoured!
Not only that, but you are right on all but, as Daniel said,  POem. Daniel immediately recognized the POem case as he recently used it in some verse he wrote me as a comment and as he wanted me to give it one beat on first read wrote "pome".
I've explained elsewhere at this site that I differentiate verse from poetry and rarely attempt poetry. My pencil name suggest that as my first offerings and this one too I would call a ditty, that's how John Greenleaf Whittier inspired jgdittier.
Modern usages now promote message over all other ploys of verse and now impose many of the virtues of prose on poetry. I like my writings to be as different from prose as possible and therefore write as sing-songy as possible.
Seems I have this style all to myself!
Cheers     jgd

[jgdittier]

Dear Daniel,
Four years ago I knew what a iamb was , but not troiche, anapest or
dactyl and I still can't define all those others beyond these four without my Clement Woods.
You, Daniel, have understood my style better than just about anybody, ever. Being different is somewhat difficult, but I believe  the style I use does have the potential to bring the smile that is its goal and that it grows on people like patina on copper (very slowly).
Even if the reader smiles because he's convinced I'm from Mars to be so unimformed that sing-song is out, I still win.
Nonetheless, it's reassuring to know that a few out there recognize my devience as intentional.
Cheers,    jgd

[JustDaniel]

Iamb not averse to verse!
The wittier Iamb,
trochier I write... perverse
'til I don't give a dam,
trampled ram, ewe, lamb or goat
or any other crit.
Take me as Iamb; don't gloat,
'cause half o' me is wit.

so there!

I kinda like your company, jgd!  ... and thanks for the explanation of the Whittier connection!  I never got that till now (not that I'd ever read the old guy, I'm ashamed to say).

Ya see, with me, there ain't nothin' to preserve, since I ain't ever read most of 'em.  It's not that I don't honor them, 'cause I do.  It's just when I was growing up, my dyslexia went undiagnosed, as did my ADD, and I simply hated poetry 'cause I couldn't understand it.

I can focus a bit better now in short spurts, but I'm slow as molasses, so I'll never catch up to all o' your research.  I'm just who Iamb!

Keep on sharin' with us, Ron.  I love your writing!  Ya ain't gotta defend it with this guy!

deLightingly, Daniel  

[Guest_Don_*]

Responding to Ron and Daniel,

This conversation is a highlight delight.

I agree Poem  is correct, which make line 10 fall into perfect pattern for all odd numbered lines as trochee, trochee, trochee, monosyllable.

For one who may claim to distain drudgery of meter, Daniel, your excellent rhymes and wit cannot be mistaken for prose.

Congratulations Ron on your outstanding even/odd line number alternate metric foot pattern.  Your poem is a delightful pattern of tetrameter/trimeter with trochee/iamb.  You are now my living idol.

From what has been said, we three practice poetry from self-education.  This demonstrates poetry is live and well.  It is not caged in academic or literary zoos.

Sing-song writing is a stepping stone.  The easiest to practice is iambic because it nearly replicates how we speak.  My next goal is to mix various meters to emulate exciting stories that cannot be mistaken for prose of Robert W. Service.   Following example is an excerpt from his The Song of the Wage Slave:
When the long, long day is over, and the Big Boss gives me my pay,
I hope that it won’t be hell-fire, as some of the parsons say.
And I hope that it won’t be heaven, with some of the parsons I’ve met –
All I want is just quiet, just rest and forget.
Look at my face, toil-furrowed; look at my calloused hands;
Master, I’ve done Thy bidding, wrought in They many lands –
Wrought for the little masters, big-bellied they be, and rich;
I’ve done their desire for a daily hire, and I die like a dog in a ditch.

Thank you, thank you, and thank you, Ron for allowing me to closely scan your work for self-illumination without reaping your ire.  I am stunned that it agrees 100% (error corrected) with yours.  For me it is a lot of work with little opportunity for feedback.  With more opportunities, such scansion will become significantly faster and accurate.  As you know, a single best is rare.  Each reader pronounces and pauses with personal taste.

Here is a link to a table of 22-metric feet:  
http://www.noggs.dsl.pipex.com/vf/feet.htm

Add: monosyllable, monosyllabic, p…..example: WOW.

Cheers for sure,

Don

[Guest_Nina_*]

Hi Ron

You and I approach poetry writing from opposite sides.  I think of the message first and the words flow around that idea.  It is interesting though to see how you build your structure.

Nina

[Guest_Jox_*]

Hi Ron,

This isn't about me but please indulge me for a minute...

My Economics degree was available in two flavours - BA or BSc. I opted for the former because I am no scientist in training, nor mind. After a very short while on the course I asked a tutor how the two variants were taught differently. He laughed (knowingly!) and explained that there was no difference whatsoever. So all I could do during the three years was to take the more arty-farty options and avoid, like the proverbial plague, anything which included measurements and other scientific approaches. Despite one stutter (in Stats, of course!) I did pass and directly used the degree for 21 years thereafter (teaching).

You'll understand, then, that I have headaches whenever anything looks too numeric; too scientific; too codified; too logical. In short, if it has any sort of pattern I probably am driven away. (I was a happy bunny until some damn scientist discovered Chaos Theory. I revelled in the idea we had a genuinely chaotic Universe; not one where, amid the chaos, were patterns!)

So I can read such poems and say "well done" etc. I certainly can see the craftsmanship which has been lavished upon them. Some I can partly enjoy - some I even enjoy quite a bit. However, I think your poem has, for me, marked a second full stop - and I thank you. Recently, Alan tried hard to explain ba-dums to me (just like my Music teacher, 35 years previously tried in vain to explain rhythm). I tried to be taught by Alan, as he was kind enough to make the effort but I realised it was pointless. I didn't have the skill, the interest, nor that sort of mind. In a similar way, I have spent quite a while reading and re-reading this tile and you have convinced me. I must keep well away from iambic intentions and metrical musings. It would really upset me to build a poem in the way you show - and I am quite incapable anyway.

So, thank you very much for the lesson - which I attended several times. It is much appreciated. I have not learnt what you were teaching (sorry - my fault; not yours) but I have finally learnt to remain happy in writing poetry by avoiding the approach which you demonstrate is necessary to construct that type of poem. I have often thought myself a little lazy not to learn but now that I have been on the introductory course, I know it's not for me. In 1979 I stuck with Economics because the subject itself has little fixed: it is all about human intentions and choices and they can never be fully nailed-down (despite efforts by Mathematical Economists and their diabolical works). It included History and Politics and Political Geography... all these enabled me to accept the bitter pill of maths , Stats and Econometrics. But, in poetry, I already have access to the artistic side so I can safely avoid the pattern side. Anyway, I only studied Economics for three years - that was enough (those pesky mathematical approaches and patterns kept invading the fun areas!)

Thanks Ron. You really have done me a big favour. You have rested my mind finally about my approach to poetry writing and I am very grateful.

Heck, it was about me. Sorry. But it was in thanks to you.

James.

[jgdittier]

Dear Daniel,
I hate to disagree, but you, my friend, are one of the wittiest
versers I've read and that includes bards of yore who concentrated
on wit, such as those who actually were financially successful in a field where even the best serious poets struggled.
"Take me as Iamb; don't gloat,
'cause half o' me is wit".
Just how do you get wittier!?
Do me a favor, read "Barbara Frietchie".
As to defending my style, I struggled through half of my 4+ years, ready to break my pencil point and ostracize wastebaskets. I survived
and have ever since become more satisfied with my style each day.
It may appeal to 1 in 10, but if it does, that's enough for me.
You, sir, have helped too in keeping my typing finger active.
Thank you and cheers,     jgd   Ron

[jgdittier]

Dear Don,
Yesterday I wrote a long response to your 9:54 comment and then lost it off the screen .
I am understandably greatly pleased by your comments but I'm not suggesting my mechanical ways are the approaches to one's goals.
I'm only suggesting that they work for me and my guess is that as you write RWService-like sagas, you'll learn what you like.
As to Service, I think his distinctive poetic style is what put his tales over. I read "Cremation  of Sam MaGee for the first time in 2003.
You can't make a better choice if you like long poems that keep your audience spellbound and are great presented vocally.
I'll post my para of "Wage Slave" today, inspired by you.
Thank you for the link.
Cheers,     jgd    Ron

[jgdittier]

Dear Nina,
Poetry is such a big field that one might put together a questionnaire of 100 preferences in poetry, pass it to every "poet" alive and not get two identical responses.
Follow your heart.
Cheers,    jgd    Ron

[jgdittier]

Dear James,
I believe you are likely to be even more taken by poetry than I am of verse. Never before has someone with views so different from mine
shared more thoughts. Our extensive dialogues have been greatly beneficial to me, I hope to you, and I hope too to any peekers.
The better we're known to those who read us, the more they'll enjoy
what they read.
I have not learned anything really about free verse nor sight poems,
nor Asiatic forms. You found your interest lies in the message.
We, I believe, are fortunate to have discovered our interests and to have the staying power not to wander from the road.
Would you be surprized that I was a science major?
We may overlap in an interest in Shakespeare's plays. I've written paras of many of the best known monologues with the challenge for the 'tec to ID the speaker and link to it.
The joy of poetry is wide and deep and tho you're out there in the current and I'm just wading, we can both enjoy the water.
Follow your heart.
Cheers,    jgd    Ron

[Guest_Don_*]

Dear Don,
Yesterday I wrote a long response to your 9:54 comment and then lost it off the screen .
I am understandably greatly pleased by your comments but I'm not suggesting my mechanical ways are the approaches to one's goals.
I'm only suggesting that they work for me and my guess is that as you write RWService-like sagas, you'll learn what you like.
As to Service, I think his distinctive poetic style is what put his tales over. I read "Cremation  of Sam MaGee for the first time in 2003.
You can't make a better choice if you like long poems that keep your audience spellbound and are great presented vocally.
I'll post my para of "Wage Slave" today, inspired by you.
Thank you for the link.
Cheers,     jgd    Ron

Hi Ron~~

I am among your admirers for I feel your 4 plus years of striving made you a deep water swimmer.

As an accidental product of geography, I walked an engineering path with 4 minus years of self-taught poetry underfoot.  Unlike Spinoza, I refuse to envision everything describable by math.  In fact I believe the lastest pure mathematicians work in areas in which formulas (math relationships) do not apply.  They still seek regular patterns out of chaos.  

Are only technical types seeking patterns?  Are we incapable of grasping the larger chaos?  A certain fence between God and His creations.

I for one, like James' approach of being comfortable with chaos.  

I have generated poems as you have from skeleton first, and have also created poems from an ethereal idea.  So many methods and work-arounds is joyful swimming together in poetic sea.

Don

[Guest_Don_*]

Hi James~~

I've indulged your minute, and found your views informative.

I suspect you enjoy nature as-is more than nature as-contrived.

There is something to say about smelling flowers in the field being better than from a perfume bottle.

Then again, there is the beauty of women wearing perfume.

Don

[Guest_Jox_*]

Hi Ron...

Thank you for your very understanding and kind reply; most appreciated.

>>Never before has someone with views so different from mine
shared more thoughts. Our extensive dialogues have been greatly beneficial to me, I hope to you, and I hope too to any peekers.

I greatly enjoy our exchanges, Ron and I'm sure they will continue from time-to-time; I'd be sad if they didn't. I really enjoy debate and learning and I enjoy your explanations. Now I know they aren't for me, I can actually read them in a more relaxed way and appreciate (as I mentioned) the craftsmanship involved. You have been most patient with me. Thank you.

>>The better we're known to those who read us, the more they'll enjoy
what they read.

Yes, I believe that to be true, too.

>>I have not learned anything really about free verse nor sight poems,
nor Asiatic forms.

I hope you do, even though they may not be for you.

>> You found your interest lies in the message.

I write long fictional prose (novels), short fictional prose, factual articles and try poetry... I suppose I approach them all the same way - you are right - i see the message first and foremost.

>>We, I believe, are fortunate to have discovered our interests and to have the staying power not to wander from the road.

Part of me wishes I had the ability. But I wouldn't be happy doing it. So, it is more being in a comfort zone, I suppose.

>>Would you be surprized that I was a science major?

LOL! No. I think you have a very logical mind. Mine ain't. By the way, Fran ("Toumai") is a graduate in Biology... you two should have done a duet together in the competition!

>>We may overlap in an interest in Shakespeare's plays. I've written paras of many of the best known monologues with the challenge for the 'tec to ID the speaker and link to it.

Yes, Shakespeare is my favourite writer of all.

That sounds a clever approach - not sure I would guess correctly, though!

>>The joy of poetry is wide and deep and tho you're out there in the current and I'm just wading, we can both enjoy the water.

Well, I feel like I'm drownijng sometimes - I really ought to learn to swim!

>>Follow your heart.

Thanks to your helpful lessons (and Alan's) I shall. Thank you.

Cheers, Ron. James.