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> Slang and Slang Use, Feast yer mince pies on this one!
Guest_Jox_*
post Mar 6 05, 21:19
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Hi,

In another tile, Don and I had a brief discussion on slang (reproduced in the next post in this tile). However, it seems to me that the subject is a very wide one and has big implications for all writers. So what do you think about slang? Do you / would you use it and, if so, when? What are the dangers and advantages of using it?

Please post your thoughts in this tile.

Oh the sub-title?? "mince pies" is Cockney (London) rhyming slang for eyes.

James.
 
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Guest_Jox_*
post Mar 6 05, 21:31
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Don's and my initial discussion...

D: Many tube jockys spent considerable time adjusting and creating individual colors.

J: Don... I give up... what is a "tube jockey"? (An engine driver on the Underground is my closest guess, well my only guess, actually).

D: It is work slang for person working a computer station.
Tube = monitor
Jocky = worker

A tube jocky rides a computer monitor all day.

Maybe you would prefer monitor lizard?

J: I certainly never guessed that one.

"Tube Lizard" - just as obscure as "tube jockey" but it seems I'm stuck with it, now that CRTs are becomming obosolete!

So a Tube Lizard I must be, then.

Can't I be a Tube Koala? They are nicer...

D: I didn't originate the term, but was a "tube jocky" for several years.

Now I punch the keys at home as a retarded retired lounge lizard.

I'm sure you would have unraveled the slang.  You are probably stoned on sucking up too much code.  I recently upgraded this home computer, but kept the CRT because it operates satisfactorily.  It occassionally garners a snide remark from Lynn, my spouse.  She is accustomed to using the daughter's fancy flat screen.  Just today, as a matter of fact, she said, "Your picture looks small."  I told her that we were old friends and get along fine.

She parted with, "I love you too."  This reminded me to get up and refill my cup of coffee.

J: What's a "Lounge Lizard"? (I don't know "Tube Lizard" either).

Apropos CRT vs. LCD...

CRTs do have much better pictures for running films and games. However, I like the LCDs because they are better resistant to reflections and emit virtually zero radiation. I find the non-flicker picture far less stressful to the eyes, too.

For TVs, however, CRTs are still the best, despite the apparent stampede to LCDs (and the even dafter plasma screens).

D: We apparently tend to slide into nicknames and slang.  When used as slang, lizard is a like a lazy person sunning himself.  Ergo a lounge lizard lazily lounges in lounge.  Oftimes lounge is substitute for any type of room, from caffeteria to home living room.  

Based on "tube jockey" and above attempt for a "lizard" a lazy or sometimes worthless computer operator is a "tube lizard."  

Maybe this work generated slang is similar to cockney.  We aren't concerned about police as much as supervisors and similar straw bosses.  A "straw boss" is a person put into authority without any authority. They tend to be direct communication to supervisors with authority.  A straw bosses function is to blab rumors of unrest and dissatisfaction to people of power.  "I heard so-and-so has a better paying postion lined up, and is looking for a pay raise pretty soon or else" type of political falshood.

Babbling brook

J: Ah! Makes much more sense now - thanks, Don.

Cockney slang is mostly impenetrable to me, I'm afraid. It is a London slang which was developed to confuse the Police. It is poetry of a sort - based on rhymes. So "Trouble and Strife" is wife and "Barnet Fair" is hair etc. But, for the most part, it simply confused me (as it was meant to confude the coppers!

"Straw boss" is interesting - never heard of it per se but "a man of straw" is a man without financial security (sounds like me!). I don't know the derrivation of that one. This makes me think that we should start a discussion tile on slang. If I have a couple of mins, I'll do that and move our posts across from here.

Thanks for your responses... most interesting.

D:Your definition of "straw boss" is probably a closer link to original than our altered use.

Glad to be of help.  I am certain you will eventually repay with language tips from your side of the pond.

J: I'm not very keen on slang, Don - British or not. Having said that, I use it all the time, of course because it is such an integral part of speech. Damn!
 
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Guest_Nina_*
post Mar 7 05, 02:13
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Hi James

I would say never use slang in poetry.  In stories it is fine in moderation used in dialogue, if it is relevant to the character you are writing about.  It can enhance the character if it is done properly.  It doesn't always matter if the reader doesn't know what it means.  It has no place elsewhere in a story.  Talking about dialogue, a lot of authors like to emphasise the accent in writing dialogue.  I can find this irritating to read as it sometimes takes ages to decipher what the words are supposed to be.  It slows me down too much and I can't do the accent in my head anyway.  I have no problem with swearing in dialogue, if appropriate to the character, but in children's books it often shocks and upsets parents.  The children don't care as it is the language they use in the playground all the time.

Nina
 
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Guest_Jox_*
post Mar 7 05, 04:15
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Hi Nina, thanks for joining the debate,

>>I would say never use slang in poetry.

Me neither, in general. I can see, though, that a specific slang term may be useful. (Though I cannot think of an example at present).

>>In stories it is fine in moderation used in dialogue, if it is relevant to the character you are writing about.  It can enhance the character if it is done properly.  It doesn't always matter if the reader doesn't know what it means.

Agreed 100%.

>>It has no place elsewhere in a story.

I think I agree 100%. (There 100%s are hard for a non-absolutist!)

>>Talking about dialogue, a lot of authors like to emphasise the accent in writing dialogue.  I can find this irritating to read as it sometimes takes ages to decipher what the words are supposed to be.  It slows me down too much and I can't do the accent in my head anyway.

I agree - it's like those old British war films which use daft German accents ("You pig-swine, you English") ludicrous and unhelpful.

>>I have no problem with swearing in dialogue, if appropriate to the character, but in children's books it often shocks and upsets parents.  The children don't care as it is the language they use in the playground all the time.

Now, swearing is interesting - and maybe another good tile in itself. Of course, swearing (as you indicate) is simply a sub-set of slang. If we put-aside slang phrases (as opposed to single words) - because most slang phrases are worn-out (i.e. cliches) then I don't see why we cannot treat slang words and slang-swearing words as ... words. I have long-maintained that using the appropriate words is an important task of a writer (poetry or fictional prose or article). I think hang-ups over swearing are very silly. Having said that, I quite agree about parents being up-tight and for genuine (if poor) reasons.

Let's consider the F-word. I would write it here with no problem but MM will turn it into sharp signs - viz: ####.

Now, if a lad shouts across the classroom to someone F-you or says it to me, that is very serious - because of the context. If, however, two lads are talking about going fishing and one says "I was going to buy an expensive rod but I thought F that, then that is perfectly ok by me. No intention to shock nor be rude.

My other objection to some words is if they are used too frequently. Some people produce sentences with F this and F that all time. That is bad speech. But it is equally bad to keep saying (as Tony Blair used to) "you know." A variety of words and phrases is needed for good speech... and good writing.

James.
 
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Guest__*
post Mar 7 05, 09:08
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Dear Jox,

Cockney rhyming slang was, as you say, designed to defeat "outsiders" to a conversation, but I'm not sure you gave the mechanism of how ?

Nip down the apples and get us a drink. = apples & pears = stairs.

Oi ! Don't fancy his barnet ! = Barnet Fair (Barnet is in north London, I presume has/had an annual Fair) = hair

We jumped in the jam and legged it. Jamjar = car

The meant word always rhymes with the unspoken 2nd word of the phrase which replaces it.

There is a whole Cockney Alphabet which I find very funny.

A for 'orses
B for Tea
C for Thailanders (Seaforth Highkanders = famous Scottish Regiment)
D for dumb (Deaf )
E for Adam (Eve for A)
F for vessence
G for Police
H for Consent
etc etc

I'll go on if anybody wants.

Love
Alan
 
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Guest_Jox_*
post Mar 7 05, 11:10
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Hi Alan,

Thanks for your interesting reply - yes, my dear fellow do carry one... but could you please also explain the alphabet? I'm lost. Thanks in anticipation.

J.
 
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Guest__*
post Mar 7 05, 12:22
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Dear Jox,

A for 'orses = 'A for 'Orses = hay for horses
B for Tea    = beef for tea
C for Thailanders (Seaforth Highkanders = famous Scottish Regiment)
D for dumb (Deaf ) = deaf or dumb
E for Adam (Eve for A)
F for vessence = effervescence
G for Police      = chief of police
H for Consent   = age for consent (age of consent)

More to follow.

Love
Alan
 
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Guest_Toumai_*
post Mar 7 05, 12:35
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Surely slang is just an evolving part of the language? Thus some words and phrases will become so accepeted that they pass into common parlance, while other die a (usually merciful) death.

I very much agree with Nina that phonetically transcribed accents are a pain when reading. You either know the accent, in which case a few choice words or phrases will bring it to mind (JJ is a master of that) or you don't know the accent in which case no amount of dialect will help you truely 'hear' it. (Reading 'Brass' by Helen Walsh I kept 'hearing' Jimmy talking as Cilla Black, which was very disconcerting ... )

I would definitely use slang, and, if appropriate, swearing to bring dialogue to life in a story. I would only use it in naration if it is from the first person, when again I'd be getting into the 'voice' of the narator. In that same vein I might consider using it in poetry.

I love hearing other people's phrases and language use - looking forward to more Cockney rhyming slang from Alan here. This is one of the joys of a multi-cultural site - lots to hear and learn.

Fran
 
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Guest_Jox_*
post Mar 7 05, 14:47
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Thanks Alan and more to follow - excellent.

Fran...

Good point about JJ.

I'm quite stuffy about this and don't like slang (though, of course, I use it - but try not to). I mind it far less than cliches per se - but there's the rub; most slang is cliche. And cliches (which, of course, I stumble into as well as anyone) as the spawn of the Writing Devil for me. They undermine anything instantly. One the one hand, I think that the phrase is dull and undermined to start with and, on t'other, I think the writer is a lazy so-and-so. So yes, I don't like slang in narration but it is very useful in conversation. I take your point, that the narrator might have use slang because of his / her poor grasp of English - in which case, I agree one is justified in using it - but it still grates.

And before anyone jumps on me for using slang or cliches - I repeat, I admit I do - but I don't want to, so please do point it out, but no reason to be smug :) I'm no angel - I told them where they could stuff their harp and walked out... only to find I'd been declined a place, anyway. But, I must say, it’s very warm down here on a cold Winter’s day and toasting the 1980s UK Conservative government is great fun.

James.
 
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Guest__*
post Mar 7 05, 16:32
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Dear Jox,

More :

A for 'orses = 'A for 'Orses = hay for horses
B for Tea    = beef for tea
C for Thailanders (Seaforth Highkanders = famous Scottish Regiment)
D for dumb (Deaf ) = deaf or dumb
E for Adam (Eve for A)
F for vessence = effervescence
G for Police      = chief of police
H for Consent   = age for consent (age of consent)
I for Novello = Ivor Novello, musicals composer
J for oranges = Jaffa oranges
K for tea = Caff (cafe) for tea
L for leather = Hell for leather
M for sis = emphasis
N for Hoxha = Enver Hoxha, former Albanian dictator 9 anyone think of a better one ?)
O for the wings of a dove = Hymn
P for relief = do I really have to spell this one out ?
R for 'mo = half a moment
S for you = and as for you
T for two
U for me = euphony I guess
V for La France = Vive La France
W for Quits = Double you, or quits, schoolground betting term
X for breakfast = eggs
Y for God's sake
Z for the exit = I'm outta here ....

Love
Alan
 
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Guest_Jox_*
post Mar 8 05, 05:45
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Alpha, Lima, Alpha, November,(*)

Thanks - quite bizarre. Most interesting.

Next question... why?

James.

{(*) - Using the NATO phonetic alphabet}

 
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Guest__*
post Mar 8 05, 09:09
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Dear Jox,

As Van Mosrrison would say "Why? Why ? It just is !"

The cockney version of NATO.

Love
Alan
 
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Guest_Jox_*
post Mar 8 05, 09:21
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Alan,

Corrr, Nat'er (We 'ave no bananas)

Juliet Oscar X-Ray (I can see things clearly now...). (Not)
 
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