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Posted by: Jox Oct 18 04, 11:31

Ok, not quite critical but take a look, anyway..

I've noticed that Lori's popped into a couple of threads to remind us that those particular ones are for critting and the submissions were going considerably off track.

She is right.

I am as guilty as anyone so I think I may be able to suggest what was happening. On one thread a collaborative poem was set up and thus people kept adding. On another we did discuss the work but it rather changed into a few people chatting about Shakespeare's Greatest Hits.

So, in neither case, was anyone being in the least awkward or unhelpful; we simply wandered off the path.

I actually had to ask Alan to pop into Socrates to see one of my works (thanks, again, Alan) because too few people are there. I think, perhaps, we need to get about and do some serious critting - it will benefit us all. Sure, banter is fine and there are forums for that. Moreover, the crit forums will never stick rigidly to critting. However, there is much critting to be done and we do let people down if we don't all "get stuck in". After all, that is why most of us came to MM in the first place - to learn and improve.

Here endeth this evening's lesson. You may now boogie to Shakespeare's Greatest Hits with Bacon on Sax and Chris Marlow on glockenspiel. (Watch out for Webster with too many symbols!)

Signed, One of The Guilty Ones!

Posted by: Cleo_Serapis Oct 18 04, 13:35

Thanks James!

Well put - with all these new admin duties taking up more of my time, it's especially hard for me to get and read, then crit all the wonderful tiles. And I just want all to know that they are well deserving of comments - in ALL our forums...

If all can pitch in - we'd sure appreciate the extra efforts!

Thanks!
~Cleo

Posted by: Psyche Nov 19 04, 18:19

Hi Cleo !
Just been browsing around and thought I'd add a suggestion.
I don't know anything about constructing websites and i'm a pretty new member, cheeky me...  :blush21:
1. Wouldn't it be better for automatic tracking to occur when one posts a poem or makes a critique? I'm sure a lot of members don't tick on "track this topic". I was fortunate to have Tao as a guide when I wandered into MM... very good one, too !! Where is he, by the way?
Miss him....  :)
What I mean to say, is that perhaps one could just tick somewhere if one DOESN'T want to track the topic. It's really motivating to receive comments on one's IN TRAY, at least in my own case I come scattering back to MM asap.  It's a good reminder.
2. On the subject of critiques, I get the impression that a certain group participates a lot and their tiles get lots of visits. Ain't complaining, I get my fair share, which I enjoy immensely. But I'm making it a policy now to look down the list of posts and click on the ones with the LEAST visits. I think it helps to expand participation and I get lots of wonderful surprises, reading work that's only had a couple of visitors.
Anyway, these thoughts came to my mind recently and I thought I'd paste them here.... hope they are welcome...  :)
Hugs,
Psyche    :read:

Posted by: Jox Nov 20 04, 02:36

Hi Psyche,

David (Tao) is jet-setting due to family problems. I hope he'll be back here eventually. Not the best of times for him at the moment. I'm sure we all wish him well and hope to see him again, soon.

James.

Posted by: Jox Nov 20 04, 02:42

The least-posts route is good - and I agree, to a point.

The only counter-point is that some of those with the most posts also do the most critting - so deserve crits in return. Not an easy one but achieving a good balance never is. Good aspect to discuss, though.

I don't know about the technicalities but I agree with your opt-out, as opposed to opt-in point. Mind you, even that has a down-side; some of us have zillions of MM e-mails just by opting-in... I hate to think of the number if we forgot to opt-out. And think of Cleo... what a sand storm of e-mails that would be!

Thanks for joining and refreshing this debate.

J.

Posted by: Cybele Nov 20 04, 06:54

Hi Lori, James and Sylvia,

Good point Sylvia. Being a moderator in Homer's I like to visit each new posting. Of these I usually offer a crit to at least 95%. Sometimes, I forget to tick the box when I should really like to read all the postings.

The last 5% I read, but do not offer a crit, for reasons that I do not understand the content thoroughly enough, or that the subject matter is not to my taste and therefore I would rather leave the critting to people who can enjoy the piece.

I spend a lot of time in Socrates as well. but must admit that I do not go to the Stonehenge tile anywhere near enough.  This is not due to lack of interest, in fact the stories I have read have been fascinating, but most are quite long pieces requiring lots of concentration and not being an expert on prose I can offer no constructive critism, and cannot see the point in just writing. "Wow, this is really cool" or "Way to go!".
I should rather leave that to the experts.

Nevertheless I should like to read these stories at my leisure.

So Lori, how about a chap book for the story writers among us? What a great read that would be on a cold winter's evening, curled up in front of the fire. I should certainly be willing to purchase such a book.

Love

Grace

Posted by: Cleo_Serapis Nov 20 04, 08:31

Hi Cleo !
Just been browsing around and thought I'd add a suggestion.
I don't know anything about constructing websites and i'm a pretty new member, cheeky me...  
1. Wouldn't it be better for automatic tracking to occur when one posts a poem or makes a critique? I'm sure a lot of members don't tick on "track this topic". I was fortunate to have Tao as a guide when I wandered into MM... very good one, too !! Where is he, by the way?
Miss him....  :)
What I mean to say, is that perhaps one could just tick somewhere if one DOESN'T want to track the topic. It's really motivating to receive comments on one's IN TRAY, at least in my own case I come scattering back to MM asap.  It's a good reminder.
2. On the subject of critiques, I get the impression that a certain group participates a lot and their tiles get lots of visits. Ain't complaining, I get my fair share, which I enjoy immensely. But I'm making it a policy now to look down the list of posts and click on the ones with the LEAST visits. I think it helps to expand participation and I get lots of wonderful surprises, reading work that's only had a couple of visitors.
Anyway, these thoughts came to my mind recently and I thought I'd paste them here.... hope they are welcome...  :)
Hugs,
Psyche    

Hi Sylvia!  

To answer your questions, here goes:

1. Auto - tracking ON: I for one, am not sure if Ikonboard has such a feature as the board is designed with the user in mind. The "Track Topic" is set in a way so each user can choose which posts they want to receive notifications on. Not all want to get an email every time someone posts anywhere on MM, as we average about 100 posts per day and so this is not a feasible solution. There are other things one can use on MM:
[*]New Posts link up near your control panel (this will show you new posts for the day or since your last log-in.
[*]Track this forum (this will allow you to track all posts in a forum for 60 days and send you an email when a new post occurs).
[*]Track this Topic (this will allow you to track all posts in that tile for 60 days and send you an email when a new post occurs).
[*]Colored markers - there is a legend at the bottom of the forumboard that indicates by color which forums have new posts AND when you go into a forum, the individual threads will have a colored key as well.
[*]Sorting - you can also sort each forum by 'descending order' by 'last post date' which the current board default.
[*]Control Panel - in your CP, you can see which items you have marked for topic reply notifications and how many days are left before you will need to renew them.

2. I have raised this point to our staff (not recently though) to make sure that any posts with few or no replies get attention. I also go back a few pages and do not always start on the first page as you already know those are getting responses. Hopefully, that'll 'bump' as I call it older posts for fresh visits too!  

I also sent a PM to Tao yesterday as he is missed?  

Hope this answers your questions...

~Cleo  

Posted by: Cleo_Serapis Nov 20 04, 08:33

Posted by: Don Nov 20 04, 17:01

Sorry folks, I am remiss for not visiting often enough.  For one I prefer the opt-in as is.   My junk mail is sufficent thank you, and to add multiple more of which likely will not be of interest...ugh.

I hardly ever expand into the higher levels, though capable and unafraid.  I also tend to click on those with the least number of comments.  This is partially due to encouraging everyone, knowing those with many comments have been covered to some degree.

Just relaying actions of this member.

Don

Posted by: Psyche Nov 20 04, 18:34

Hi Grace !
I seem to have created some movement around here....  :)
First of all, I want to say that I appreciate your crits ENORMOUSLY and realise that u do a lot of work around here. I didn't really have moderators in mind when I stopped in. Jus' us ornery folks... ha..ha...  :oops:
I especially love to have u around because over here in Argentina we tend to stick to some archaic forms of writing and it's always a relief to hear from u that their OK, tho' perhaps not "the new London voice"...
If you read everything and crit 95%, that's quite awesome. Thank u so much, Grace, I/we are indeed fortunate to have stumbled into your path    :)
I agree about the story issue. I've already apologized to Lori about not reading them all and voting. You know I'm usually at a cybercafé because I can't use my home line, a sort of Catch-22 situation. A chapbook would be a good idea.
Hugs and more thanks,
Sylvia  :pharoah2

Posted by: Psyche Nov 20 04, 18:57

Hi James !
My mother used to say that Sagittarians "open their mouth and put their foot in it".... that's me....  :blush21:
Didn't mean to create a flurry  :oops:

The only counter-point is that some of those with the most posts also do the most critting - so deserve crits in return. Not an easy one but achieving a good balance never is. Good aspect to discuss, though

My counter-counter-point to this, is a personal philosophical outlook that probably doesn't apply here. I find that in real life things happen in a sort of chain reaction, very often one can't return the favour to somebody who has indeed been of great help in difficult times, but then other people or situations crop up where one can definitely be of use, and so on.... and maybe one day you catch up with the original thread and that's great, too.
Coming back to MM, if we keep "returning the favour" then it's like an eternal rebound, or a closed circle... almost.
Of course I don't believe in absolutes and achieving a good balance would be the ideal way.  Anyway, the other day I visited Cleo's Swap Quatrain (of which more later) and was totally floored by her original invention (still awed...  :smart: ), because our brilliant admin. had only 2 visitors !! Now she's in the limelight !!!    
Will answer Cleo now and scamper back home.
Hugs to all,
Psyche  :wave:  :cheer:

Posted by: Jox Nov 20 04, 19:17

Hi Sylvia,

You seem to think that you might have "put your foot in it?" Well, you certainly shouldn't think that at all - debate is great and, as I started this thread, I'm especially delighted that it has been re-invigorated by your posting. You've done nothing wrong at all and everything right, as far as I can see - and I'm sure others would agree.

Now, I was not actually disagreeing with your point; quite the contrary; I try to visit some people with few comments, too. However, I was also pointing out that those that do crit most do deserve crits in return; I don't even think these views are mutually exclusive; I think each has its part in the compromise.

As regards your "personal philosophical outlook that probably doesn't apply here," I'm sure it does. In Britain we say "what goes around, comes around" - though you express it better than the saying. As you argue, if A helps B then B may help C and so on. B may never help A directly - but Z may well.

I think all I was saying is: sure that's correct but if A is directly helping B-Z then A does deserve some extra crit for their efforts. Hopefully, that would not for a moment stop those with few crits being helped, either.

I hope all that makes sense.

Bad luck having to use cyber cafes all the time... mind you, you probably get decent coffee!

Now you've mentioned that Lori only had two visitors I'll try to find it. Mind you, if it's in a crit forum, she may not thank you for pointing my nose in that direction. I am to poetic forms what a bulldozer is to a grape. Ouch! Still, I try!

Thanks (I mean that) for your postings, Sylvia.

James.

Posted by: Psyche Nov 20 04, 19:17

Hi Cleo !! (and all others worried about those zillion daily e.mails.... )

I guess I was dreaming some impossible dream and didn't even explain myself properly  :)
I thought maybe there was some way of receiving automatic tracking of ONE'S OWN posts and our crits of other people's work. Just the feedback on the tiles or crits or suggestions we make/post, not of ALL the posts on the site. It does say "do you wish to track this topic?", it doesn't say "do you wish to track ALL topics?"....
But I guess that sort of selective automatic tracking would have been done already, if it were possible. I suggested this because a lot of writers, including myself, get a bit rattled "up here" in cyberspace, forgetting to tick this or that  :oops:
I've now learnt to track some forums and news sites, thank you so much Cleo for all your advice and I'm sorry to have put you to so much work... again  :blush21:
Still amazed at your Swap Quatrain idea  :pharoah2  :cheer:  I warn you that I may go on and on about it for a while   :pharoah2
Hugs,
Psyche  :wave:

Posted by: Psyche Nov 20 04, 19:29

Hi Don !

I also tend to click on those with the least number of comments.  This is partially due to encouraging everyone, knowing those with many comments have been covered to some degree.

Yes, that's exactly what I meant. Not as an absolute principle, but to encourage everyone.

I hope I've explained about the zillion mails now, I guess I didn't get my message across properly. I was thinking about the warning Cleo had to send out recently, about people not participating, and it just seemed a good idea to have automatic response to personal stuff, not the whole website !! I think maybe some people get lost along the way and that's a shame.

Thanks, Don !
Psyche    :mouse:

Posted by: Jox Nov 20 04, 19:36

Hi Sylvia,

This tracking problem is...

(I am putting my tin hat and protective long-johns on)...

because you're a lady!

No, no insults about not understanding - don't think I'm sexist (hope not - well I might be pleading for my life here).

What I mean is, that at the bottom of all main posting windows are three questions... 1 enable emoticons, 2. signature, 3 enable racking. On mine, at least the top two are activated by default.

Now, it seems to me that the ladies on here (and on other boards) are the ones who use emoticons most. I very seldom use them so I almost always de-select "enable emoticons" because, if I don't, various combinations of brackets etc turn into those damn similey things. In the same sweep I turn on tracking. So my remembering to activate tracking depends on my remembering to de-activate emoticons.

So tracking problems are a gender issue! QED.

OK, if anybody wants me I'm... hiding.

James.

Posted by: Don Nov 20 04, 20:18

Hi Psyche,

Always nice to talk to and hear from intelligence from Southern Hemisphere.

I am certain we are in total agreement.  I was not knocking or dissing your thoughts on obtaining notifications.  Your second explanation clarified a great deal.  I for one am not so careless as to overlook a detail like checking a box if it is available.  Lots of places don't allow rework or editing once released, which made me a whole lot more careful.  

I also keep a spreadsheet of every poem—good, bad, failed, whatever—and know where it went and when.  Hence, I can come back to MM and search for stuff that hasn't been heard of for a while.  Believe me I have found people adding valuable crit after the 60 day limit.

Keep the good stuff coming.  

Don  

Posted by: Cleo_Serapis Nov 21 04, 07:29

Hi Lori, James and Sylvia,

Good point Sylvia. Being a moderator in Homer's I like to visit each new posting. Of these I usually offer a crit to at least 95%. Sometimes, I forget to tick the box when I should really like to read all the postings.

The last 5% I read, but do not offer a crit, for reasons that I do not understand the content thoroughly enough, or that the subject matter is not to my taste and therefore I would rather leave the critting to people who can enjoy the piece.

I spend a lot of time in Socrates as well. but must admit that I do not go to the Stonehenge tile anywhere near enough.  This is not due to lack of interest, in fact the stories I have read have been fascinating, but most are quite long pieces requiring lots of concentration and not being an expert on prose I can offer no constructive critism, and cannot see the point in just writing. "Wow, this is really cool" or "Way to go!".
I should rather leave that to the experts.

Nevertheless I should like to read these stories at my leisure.

So Lori, how about a chap book for the story writers among us? What a great read that would be on a cold winter's evening, curled up in front of the fire. I should certainly be willing to purchase such a book.

Love

Grace

Hello Grace!

A few of your comments stuck out to me and I'd like to respond too.

QUOTE

The last 5% I read, but do not offer a crit, for reasons that I do not understand the content thoroughly enough, or that the subject matter is not to my taste and therefore I would rather leave the critting to people who can enjoy the piece.

I see both pros and cons to this as I can relate to your observations. If I come across a post that either is beyond my understanding (hazy) OR not a subject I would write about, I feel THOSE are the pieces that need more help on my part at least. YES - it may not be a subject we like but the challenge is to tell the author what you don't understand about the piece because more than likely, others feel the same way and hence, the result: few crits in that thread. As long as out Crit rules are used when offering a crit (non-personal reactions I mean), I see only a PRO as the result. Thewriter obtains valuable feedback and the critter gains a new understanding. YES - some topics simply put me off and I tend to ingnore them too, but only if others have been providing feedback already.


I relate to you Grace about Stonehenge as I often go there but do not crit as frequently (due to the length of the posts mostly. I must print them out and when I have some time, then I will make notes on the print and transfer them back into my reply...

QUOTE

So Lori, how about a chapbook for the story writers among us? What a great read that would be on a cold winter's evening, curled up in front of the fire. I should certainly be willing to purchase such a book.

I'm open to the idea! I'll start a new tile in Stonehenge to see if anyone wants to participate...

Cheers!
~Cleo  :cheer:

Posted by: Morgan le Fay Nov 21 04, 21:04

Hi folks,

Remember me from way back when?     I know I haven't posted in ages, but I do pop in from time to time to read.  I've been hesitant to critique any poems as I haven't contributed in ages, but, I would be willing to critique now and then if you folks don't mind.

 I haven't felt like writing much in the last year or so, but would like to get back in the swing of things.  Thought that offering my humble opinions on others works might be helpful.  What do you guys think?  It won't hurt my feeling if you tell me to take a hike, but I wouldn't mind offering my humble opinons on others works from time to time.  

If that would be okay, well then, I'm at your service....

Love and stuff,
Chris  :)

Aka:
Morgan le Fay
Mistress of Magic  

Posted by: Jox Nov 21 04, 21:19

Hi Chris,

I'm up at a silly hour here so let me be the first to welcome you back to MM (though it sounds as if you've not been away completely).

Of course everyone at MM will be delighted to see you back. And you're not the only one: I was away for much of 2004 but everyone was extremely kind when I returned. People have different pulls in their lives - we can't all keep going at something all the time.

I'm not touting for crits; I've been well critted of late - but if you feel apprehensive by all means crit my stuff; I'd be delighted. On the other hand, and in the spirit of this thread, if you feel more confident have a crit of some works that have had little attention.

I would hope that critting might even help you to feel a little more like writing yourself in time - but no one would push you if you don't want to.

Anyways, whatever part you play on MM I am sure that I shall be only the first of many to wish you a warm "re-welcome". Great to see you again.

James.

Posted by: Morgan le Fay Nov 21 04, 21:45

{{Hugs!}}, why thank you James!  You've made me feel quite welcome already.  My main concern was critiquing without offering any works of my own.  Just haven't been able to write of late.  It's wonderful to have you be the first to welcome me back! {{hugs again}}

I've kept in touch with Zeus, via e-mail and of course Lori sends me notices about what's going on here at the mosaic.  Really don't have any excuses as to why I've been absent other than, life happens... :)

I did notice awhile back that you were 'MIA' for a bit.  Wondered what had happened to you, but certainly understand and am ecstatic that you are here now!  ( gosh it's good to see old friends!)

Yes, I'll get busy and offer a few crits and see what happens.  Thanks for the welcome back.   Love ya!!!

Best regards,
Chris

Morgan le Fay
Mistress Of Magic  :wizard:

Posted by: AMETHYST Nov 23 04, 04:31

Ok... I'm off to do some crits ... I know... I know... I should stand in the corner for being late!  :jester:  

Hello Don and everyone else! Miss you guys... Big Hugs... Love ya, Liz

Posted by: Cleo_Serapis Nov 23 04, 06:34

Hello Chris and Liz!  :wave:  :wave:

Well of COURSE we all WELCOME crits even if you aren't posting new tiles! Even better for all here at MM!  :snowflake:

I truly appreciate the feedback.

This thread is certainly arousing some great input!

THANKS ALL and a very HAPPY THANKSGIVING to you and yours!  :turkey:

Cheers!  :cheer:
~Cleo  :pharoah:

Posted by: Psyche Nov 23 04, 17:36

Posted by: Psyche Nov 23 04, 17:57

Hi J/J with the tin hat & long johns !
HA HA... u needn't have bothered with that getup to introduce the gender issue.
I understand from you that we women have far more emotional intelligence, an element lacking in u poor menfolks. . · . that's exactly why we use emoticons !! I take your analysis as a compliment to the ladies... Q.E.D. Gee, thanks, Jox
Anyway, your slip is showing, since I see that in 3. "you enable racking".... didn't know you were also a masochist...
Oh, dear, I better go to some other forum and get some work done.
And Hi ! to Morgan le Fay and the others who've dropped in recently  :wave:  :wave:
Hugs to all,
Psyche  :cheer:

Posted by: Siren Nov 25 04, 20:15

Hi All,

Seeing this post I can't help but feel a twinge of guilt at not doing my duty as a member. I know that this wasn't meant to do that, still..

I hope I'll get back on the writing and interacting wagon again soon.

Happy weekend to all....

Daniah

Posted by: Jox Nov 25 04, 20:59

Oh, a gender debate - did I start that? Ouch!

Actually, I usually don't become involved because 9don't take this the wrong way!) I don't usually differentiate between races, colours, religions (that will surprise some, maybe), sexes and so on. We're all human.

However, it is self-evident that women use emoticons more than men. Nothing wrong in that - just an observation. And since I said it, I've had them waggled in my face several times (thanks Grace et al!)

"Emotional Intelligence" - emm a contradiction in terms for me. One can be emotional or one can apply intelligence. I'm not even sure this splits down gender lines.

I type with two fingers and am very imperfect. I usually spell-check but, of course, that won't catch wrong words caused by typos. Sorry. Well picked-up.

Masochist? No, certainly not - I never beat myself up - too many people willing to do that for me, so I don't need to bother.

Toodle Pip, James.

Siren - don't think that way - that would simply lead you to resent being here, which would be a disaster for us all. Participate when you can and enjoy it.

James.

Posted by: Siren Nov 26 04, 17:17

Ah James,

I'm beginning to like you more by the day...
Thanks for the vote of confidence. I used to be a very active in a previous board for almost 4 years and well I literary was "flying" all over the place including being a site moderator.  That's why my slacking off makes me feel I've failed the community I'm in, inspite of it, logically, not being so.

How about that, no smileys in this response.

Dani

Posted by: Don Jan 27 05, 12:37

Hey Jox,

Somewhere above in this thread you said:

Now, it seems to me that the ladies on here (and on other boards) are the ones who use emoticons most. I very seldom use them so I almost always de-select "enable emoticons" because, if I don't, various combinations of brackets etc turn into those damn similey things.
         ------------      -------------------   --------------------
Dint ya no females use emoticons more than males because they are
Pick one:
1) More emotional
2) More expressive

Seriously, number two is absolutely correct.  Thanks for your tip,  if and when emoticon "on" becomes a conflict.
Our four-year-old grandson loves the panel of emoticons displayed at left-side.  All those head-banging, eye-popping, waving, singing, laughing, and dancing animations tickle his giggle bone.

Don

Posted by: Jox Jan 27 05, 19:32

Hi Don,

Thanks for your reply.

I'm just a "stiff assed Brit." I'm not even sure why we need tv - what's wrong with the wireless and why have newspaper photographs in. All very strange. Seriously, I do find too many images distracting - hate modern tv programmes when they use daft images just to replace talking heads. On the other hand, if something is genuinely better with images then do it well.

I never mind people using those emoticons to me - as long as no one minds my not using them back, except on high days and holidays.

All the best, James.

Posted by: Cleo_Serapis Jan 27 05, 19:53

 :knight: I'll just make one comment:

:costume:  :speechless:  :wizard:  :StarWars1:  :StarWars2:  :detective:  :pharoah2  :medusa:  :sings:  :cali:  :crab:  :borg:  :wolf:  :pcgal:  :mouse:  :cards:  :8ball:  :alien2:




and




:)  ;)  :cool:  :laugh:  :ghostface:  :alien:  :grinning:  :oops:  :upside:

Posted by: Jox Jan 27 05, 19:58

Hi Lori,

I think that says it all! :)

James.

Posted by: Siren Jan 27 05, 20:48

It's so refreshing to see the lighthearted banter going on here. :)

I'm still on the mend and of not much help I'm afraid. I am reading though.

I just needed a moral booster before heading to bed.

Hugs
Dani

Posted by: Jox Jan 27 05, 21:03

Dani - all of the very best; take care and see you soon.

James.