Printable Version of Topic

Posted by: Marc-Andre Germain Jul 20 09, 05:32

spring dance, robins twitter to the taps of clogs

Posted by: Arnfinn Jul 21 09, 02:32

G'day Mark.


spring dance, robins twitter to the taps of clogs



Mate, you'll have to explain the intricacies of your poem.

One line haiku?


John

Posted by: Marc-Andre Germain Jul 21 09, 03:03

John,

I begin to feel like I am here to critique my own poems...Why don't you tell me what you see in it? An then I could respond...I've posted some helpful links below. I have titled it "an American Haiku" so as not to see yet another thread where we end up debating over "terms" without ever actually workshopping the poem I have posted. Frankly, I hate to say this but I've begun to feel that I am wasting my time here. I've spent a lot of time here critiquing poems in depth (which I gather hasn't always be appreciated) and on the last five poems I've posted (two removed), only one has received an actual response to the poem. And if craft doesn't matter, then I am at the wrong place. I came here to workshop seriously. I understand things being slow. I understand that some members may not have much time to spare due to whatever personal reasons they may have, and I can respect that. But how many members are there here? If nothing else, poetry requires serious dedication. The little I've gained here in the last few weeks doesn't remotely justify the time I've spent critiquing here, offering suggestions etc. I'm disappointed.

Mark


http://www.modernhaiku.org/essays/AmericanHaikuFuture.html

http://www.hsa-haiku.org/

http://www.ahapoetry.com/haiartjr.htm


And while I'm providing links, here are two for the haibun:

http://raysweb.net/haiku/pages/haibun-definition.html

http://poetrylives.com/CHO/

Posted by: Arnfinn Jul 21 09, 05:09

Well, Mark.

The policy for Haiku at MM is 5/7/5.

I remarked if anyone posted a variation other than the above.

A brief description would be necessary.

I don't think that's unreasonable.

It is an education for all of us.


John

Posted by: Marc-Andre Germain Jul 21 09, 06:20

John,

Asking for more information is reasonable enough; this is why I've offered all those links

Seeing that the MM policy for haiku is 5/7/5, I guess I'll just stop posting mine here. Is there any other such policy I should be aware of?

You mentioned in another post that there was a place at MM for experimental (avant-gardiste) poetry? Which one would that be? And is there a forum for policy-free forum at MM where we can post non-experimental poetry like American haiku that do not conform to the MM policy go, haibun or prose poetry? Not a vanity show-off thread please, I came to workshop.

As I said above, I took the pain of titling it "American Haiku" to differentiate this from the traditional haiku.

Frankly speaking, John, the more it goes, the less I feel at home here at MM. I've got no complain whatsoever about you or any member here. To the contrary, I think this is a decent forum with a beautiful group of beautiful people. But I'm afraid our views of poetry do not match. Difference is good, and a lot can be learned by exploring them, and I really appreciate that you've engaged into this debate for me. If no one minds, I might stick around for the nice chats. But I'm afraid that little of what I write will conform to MM policies. As an artist, I espouse craft, eschew policy. I welcome all debates on the craft; I couldn't care less for Policy, that enforcerment of conformity.

It's your forum, and your free to moderate it as you like. But these American haiku are probably the last poems I ever post here at MM. And as I came here to workshop, it entails that I will no longer feel inclined to post critiques either. Sometimes, there's nothing left but to agree to disagree.

Before I pack my crayons, I will answer your question about this non-conformist poem

Namely, why one line?

Let's look at this: spring dance, robins twitter to the taps of clogs

And here I am critiquing my own poem again

First, I'll stack it back into three lines:

Spring dance - ........................L1 works fine, the usual kigo
Robins twitter..........................L2 so far so good, besides its non-conformist syllable count.
to the taps of clogs..................to the.....of: this sucks, three weak sounds filling in that short a poem.

Spring dance -
Robins twitter to......................."to" just dangles there.
the taps of clogs

However, I need the three filler words (to, the, of) to avoid pidgin English. The line break bringing in a short pause, the music is loss (the sounds are there alright: twitter, taps). A triple alliteration "twitter to taps" turns the ku (may I call it so here?) into a tongue-twister. By bringing the three fragments, the four successive weak sounds add a rush movement to the lines, without needlessly pausing on them:

spring dance, robins twitter to the taps of clogs
with a natural, mild elevation on the word "to", rather than having an anapestic "to the TAPS" following the weak sound "-ter" of "twitter."

As for the syllable-count, I've placed precedence on the essence of the ku. It has its kigo, "spring." There follows the two juxtaposed images (in a whole American ku, some schools demand two, others three visuals, but never more than that as far as I know of.) The visuals/images are both concrete (robins, clogs) and sensory (twitter, tap.) The "satori" moment is the word "dance."

Yep, I could add words to bloat it up to 5-7-5. But how? Adding another image would overcrowd the ku. Adding an adjective where none is actually needed? Both of these solutions would actually diminish the ku. I could place the robins on a tree, I guess...which would entail a need of an extra prepositional phrase, which is not desirable in any haiku, and certainly not two of them.

Any suggestion about this piece that doesn't dilute it, I'm interested.

Thanks again for the time you've devoted here.

Mark

Posted by: prerna bala Jul 22 09, 05:34

so you say that is a one line haiku ?
well this is what i think :
the comma offers a pause and so the rest can be in the next line without the comma

as

spring dance
robins twitter to the taps of clogs

and inverted as

twittering robins
to tap of clogs
spring dance


but then that is just my opinion, and i hope to read more of your work,
you know i am just as crazy about haiku as any other

cheers


---------------------------------------------------
oops, i just read your self critique of your one liner, but decided to let my dumb- say stay
you said pretty much the same as i did
but then,
anyhow :

robins twitter dancing to the tap of clogs

because the season is dictated by the presence of the robins i guess, wonder what you have to say on this

Posted by: Marc-Andre Germain Jul 22 09, 10:52

Hi Prerna,

A good point, I'll consider this. I'm not sure about the gerund in "Robins twitter dancing" (it plods rather heavily, don't you think?) but I guess there could be a better word for "spring." Thanks for the input.

Mark

Posted by: Cleo_Serapis Jul 22 09, 13:40

Hi Mark,

There are no "policies" with regard to the various forms of poetry, John had meant something else. The basic forum participation rules here are to crit 2 other works for each one you post, and wait the obligatory 2 days in between. You already know about the 4 different poetry forums so know where to post your free verse or R&M poetry etc...

Regards,
~Cleo

Posted by: Eisa Jul 22 09, 16:13

Hi Marc

I quite like the content of this, but have to say that the one line threw me!!!! I haven't had chance to read your links, perhaps they will enlighten me.

A couple of thoughts

Perhaps another word for spring which just hints at the season?

I'm not sure of the grammar here, but shouldn't it be

robins twitter to the tap of clogs

Lori has already clarified that there are no policies regarding this form (or any other) at MM. This forum was started by 2 haiku experts, and http://forums.mosaicmusings.net/index.php?showtopic=10208 which might interest you.

Also, if you want to learn more about haiku or any other forms take a lookhttp://forums.mosaicmusings.net/index.php?showforum=19 at Karnak Crossing the Education Forums.

Snow

Posted by: Marc-Andre Germain Jul 31 09, 11:14

Cleo & Snow,

I wanted to drop in and thank you for responding, and for your openness of mind and support. However, I doubt I will ever post at MM again.

Mark