The Rose and Weeping Willow, Wizard Award Winner ~ 2nd Revision Options

[Guest_Cathy_*]

Sorry ... this poem has been deleted.

Cathy

[Guest_Nina_*]

Hi Cathy

I really love this poem. The imagery is wonderful - the weeping willow and the prickly rose, both so different but needing each other to thrive.  

My favourite lines are:

She's standing there as if in shame
in windblown disarray,
deep sorrow whispers soft her name
and leaves her bowed in pain.

and

Her meanness seems unnoticed
on jaded stem of thorns,
as unfurled petals worship life
and proudly reign with grace.


Am I reading too much into this if I say you are the weeping willow and Melissa the beautiful but thorny rose?

A very moving poem with a mixture of powerful emotions running between the willow and rose.

Nina

P.S. how is Melissa today?

[Guest_Cathy_*]

Hi Nina,

I really love this poem. The imagery is wonderful - the weeping willow and the prickly rose, both so different but needing each other to thrive.

Two different ways to look at life and how to live it.  I tried to bring it together at the end to show that it takes tears and joy to blossom into
a well-rounded contented life.  I'm glad you like it.

Am I reading too much into this if I say you are the weeping willow and Melissa the beautiful but thorny rose?

You are very perceptive!  Even though this was written some time ago it just shows how long we've had problems.

A very moving poem with a mixture of powerful emotions running between the willow and rose.

Thank you!

P.S. how is Melissa today?

She has her ups and downs.  Today is more up!  LOL  She hasn't gotten rid of the stone yet and she only has 'til Friday before seeing the dr. again.  Thanks for asking!  *smiles*

Cathy

[Charon]

Very nice.  I have a willow recently planted in my backyard with two rose bushes beneath - what a coincidence, eh?

Beside her thrives a blushing rose,
soft color warms her face,
while dewdrops glist'ning through sunlight
form sprays of dainty lace.

I wish I had written the above lines.  For roses do seem to blush especially so early in their life and in the morning.  

So much like life as you say in your response.  

deep sorrow whispers soft her name

Was the only line I had trouble with, I had to go back and reread it a couple of times to completely understand was it the willow or sorrow softly wispering her name?

Well done, I enjoyed.

Charon

[Guest_Cathy_*]

Hi Charon,

I wish I had written the above lines.  For roses do seem to blush especially so early in their life and in the morning.

Thank you!  I think roses have a bit more color to them in the
morning, before the heat of the day gets to them.

So much like life as you say in your response.

I tried!  *smiles*  

deep sorrow whispers soft her name

Was the only line I had trouble with, I had to go back and reread it a couple of times to completely understand was it the willow or sorrow softly wispering her name?

It's sorrow whispering the willow's name
and leaving her bowed in pain.

Well done, I enjoyed.

Thank you!

Cathy

[Guest_Nina_*]

*bump*

[Guest_Don_*]

Hi Cathy,

Following is a scansion of first stanza regarding whether or not iambic.
To my knowledge each line stands on its own.  That is enjambment joining lines is not allowed in scaning meter.


I love the sway of willow,
her graceful flowing leaves;
yet wonder why she's weeping,
what caused her untold grief.
She's standing there as if in shame
in windblown disarray,  [disarray = dis ar ray]
deep sorrow whispers soft her name
and leaves her bowed in pain.

Comments:
L1: Last word is not iambic.
L2: Perfect iambic.
L3: Same as L1.
L4: Two stress in series at end are not iambic.
L5: Would be iambic if one of the three low stress words of "as if in" were deleted. Accasional two low stress connectors before a  hi stress is considered iambic if environment is iambic.
L6: Definitly not iambic.
L7: Beginning not iambic.
L8: Perfect iambic.

Perhaps Ron or Daniel will jump in and provide their insight.

Just trying to help in the meter department.  

Don  :)

[Guest_Don_*]

Hi Cathy,

While thinking on your "odd rhyme" I was struck by "random rhyme."

Don  :pharoah2

[Guest_Cathy_*]

Hi Don,

I knew the first stanza didn't read as smoothly as the second.

her graceful flowing leaves;
yet wonder why she's weeping,

I didn't realize that the line is supposed to end with a stressed
syllable.  Why wouldn't "why" be stressed?  This gets so confusing!
LOL

Thanks for taking the trouble to do this. ^

"Random rhyme" does sound better!  LOL

Cathy

[Guest_Don_*]

Well my dear Cathy, there isn't any hard rule that says why shouldn't be stressed.  It has to do with how you read it, no?  Your scansion in this case is as good as mine, which is less than expert.  I tend to put low stress on filler words.

Why do you ask? is a normal question, but by same token so is "Why do you ask?"  As you can see other emphasis is likely. Writing lacks spoken intonations.

When a reader gets into a sing-song beat they tend to modifiy stresses to fit that beat.  I think iambic is the easiest to fall into as a sing-song meter.
The trouble is out loud the stresses are not pounded distinctly like a drum does.

Cheers

Don  :pharoah2

[jgdittier]

Dear Cathy,
The R&M criteria that appeals to me is not very popular now, so any suggestions or comments I make here are not intended to be authoritative, just the way I see it.

Don has mentioned my name as possible help "in the meter department". Before I put one word to print, I suggest you decide your poetic goals.  Are they FV or R&M and how pure will you be in applying the principles.

My thinking as to R&M is that it is more focussed on presentation than on message, so while the message may be tremendously important, it nontheless must be presented using the devices of verse, the first and foremost being cadence. Blank verse skips rhymes entirely. Only free verse skips cadence.

Repetition is the secret of R&M.
An established repetitive cadence and rhyme scheme helps the reader know what to expect as to the very next beat or rhyme and provides a matrix in which the skillful wordsmith can present his message.

Verse which is totally repetitious is taken by many to be "sing-song",
such as it loses its flavor. For me, verse that is inadequately repetitious destroys my joy in anticipating adequately what is to follow. Only in a few cases where the message is captivating do I stay interested.

Each of us, writer and reader must decide where in those two extremes, R&M and FV, he wants to be.

I suggest you read aloud, but without much inflection, your revised poem. Does it have some aspect of music to it? It it pleasant to the ear? If it's not bumpy, your cadence is sufficiently repetitive with appropriate substitutions. Mixing meter is more often a good thing than bad if it's done deliberately and passes the "bump" test.

I believe including feminine line ends, whether rhymed or not,  often adds to the flow of the poem. I like the "willow" and "weeping" line ends in lines 1 and 3 and would try to use /-s to end lines 5 & 7.

As to rhyme scheme, I like it repetitious, not helter-skelter. That is,when I expect an end rhyme, it will be there.

I read your rhyme scheme as:
xxxxaxax
xbxbxxxb
cxcx
xdxd
I think you'd like your poem more if the end rhyme scheme were more
like:
xaxaxbxb
xcxcxdxd
xexe
xfxf.

I believe your poem has a message that justifies your review and can be made into a memorable piece however you procede. Good luck and I hope to see this revised.


Cheers,    ron

[Guest_Cathy_*]

Hey Don,

Why do you ask? is a normal question, but by same token so is "Why do you ask?"  As you can see other emphasis is likely. Writing lacks spoken intonations.

And I would probably say "Why do you ask?"  LOL

When a reader gets into a sing-song beat they tend to modifiy stresses to fit that beat.  I think iambic is the easiest to fall into as a sing-song meter.

I find myself doing that!  Oh, the stress of stressed or no!  

[Guest_Cathy_*]

Hi Ron,

Don has mentioned my name as possible help "in the meter department". Before I put one word to print, I suggest you decide your poetic goals.  Are they FV or R&M and how pure will you be in applying the principles.

At this rate, FV is looking better all the time!  *smiles*

Repetition is the secret of R&M.
An established repetitive cadence and rhyme scheme helps the reader know what to expect as to the very next beat or rhyme and provides a matrix in which the skillful wordsmith can present his message.

You have a good point!

I suggest you read aloud, but without much inflection, your revised poem. Does it have some aspect of music to it? It it pleasant to the ear? If it's not bumpy, your cadence is sufficiently repetitive with appropriate substitutions. Mixing meter is more often a good thing than bad if it's done deliberately and passes the "bump" test.

I do, but I think I'm reading it to fit what I want it to sound like.

I believe your poem has a message that justifies your review and can be made into a memorable piece however you procede. Good luck and I hope to see this revised.

Thank you Ron!  We'll see what happens.  LOL

Cathy

[Cleo_Serapis]

Hi Cathy.  

Two great items to write about in contrast! A great idea!

I find your meter pretty polished in most places, however, some are a bit bumpy. I've offered the suggestions below to try and reconcile them..

Enjoyed!
~Cleo  

[delete] {add}

Beside her thrives a blushing rose,
soft color warms her face,
while dewdrops [glist'ning] {glisten} through sunlight
form sprays of dainty lace.
Her [meanness] {malice} seems unnoticed
on jaded [stem] {shoot} of thorns,
as unfurled petals worship life
and proudly [reign] {sway} with grace.

The sun shines down on both the same,
yet each respond{s} [so differently] { distinctively }.
One with sadness, fears of blame;
one ... most joyfully. *need one more syllable

A perfect blend essential
to blossom [o'er] {through} the years ...
an inner beauty and fulfillment
[through] {blooms} agony of tears.

[Guest_Cathy_*]

Hi Lori,

Two great items to write about in contrast! A great idea!

Thank you!

I find your meter pretty polished in most places, however, some are a bit bumpy. I've offered the suggestions below to try and reconcile them..

I don't think I will ever "reconcile" with this meter business.  I can write one
poem and breeze right through it with little trouble and next time I'm tripping
myself up!  LOL

Enjoyed!
~Cleo

Thank you!  

[delete] {add}

Beside her thrives a blushing rose,
soft color warms her face,
while dewdrops [glist'ning] {glisten} through sunlight  This works.
form sprays of dainty lace.
Her [meanness] {malice} seems unnoticed I like "malice"
on jaded [stem] {shoot} of thorns, I will think about this one.
as unfurled petals worship life
and proudly [reign] {sway} with grace. I've already used "sway".  I really
used "reign" for a reason.  If you knew my daughter you'd see why.  *sad smiles*

The sun shines down on both the same,
yet each respond{s} [so differently] { distinctively }. Your suggestion
fits better.
One with sadness, fears of blame;
one ... most joyfully. *need one more syllable I thought so too!

A perfect blend essential
to blossom [o'er] {through} the years ...
an inner beauty and fulfillment
[through] {blooms} agony of tears. Unless I'm reading this wrong this
sounds like I'm blooming tears.  I may have to rewrite this verse again
because I don't think I'm getting my thoughts across.  The idea is that it takes a blend of the two personalities, joy and tears, to bring
about a well-rounded, emotionally healthy, and contented individual.  Trying
to come up with the "right" ending has given me fits since I first wrote it.  I
guess I will try again!  LOL

Thanks for your thoughts, Lori!
Cathy

[Guest_Don_*]

Cathy,

I like to think of meter, cadence, as like childbirth. You will love it despite the pain.  It takes time for most,  I still have trouble and probably always will.

Cadence is like children...unpredictable but a joy.

Don  :)

[Guest_Cathy_*]

Hi Don,

I like to think of meter, cadence, as like childbirth. You will love it despite the pain.  It takes time for most,  I still have trouble and probably always will.

That's nice to know coming from someone who seems to have it perfected.

Cadence is like children...unpredictable but a joy.

Well then, I can't give up can I?  :sun:

[jgdittier]

Dear Cathy,
My opinion is that your revision effort is mainly magnificant!
You've made it ballade metre, -/-/-/-/, -/-/-/, -/-/-/-/, -/-/-/: you've end rhymed it abab: you've maintained the message. Read it to someone or have them read it to you. Greatest improvement I've seen in a long, long time!
Going back to the concept that it is a human instinct to like to predict where beats will occur, lines and thoughts will end, where words will rhyme, you can pick out the remaining few spots yourself.
Finding a way to rhyme line 8 should be easy enough. You've left many possibilities. Rhyme zone should make it duck soup.
Do you want glisten or glistened? Best to keep the verb form as it appears in the earlier lines.
Line 18 breaks the pattern of 6 syllables, 3 beats with "distictively". How pure you'll be is up to you.
I personally believe a piece like yours relies on its last quatrain to leave that feeling with the reader that he's just read some extraordinary poetry. Drawing attention to that quatrain then is the goal of the poet. Here's where you prove yourself!
You've a great message to communicate and here, if anywhere, you can pull out the stops to make your message emphatic. I wish I knew just how, but someone at this board surely knows or you might yourself.
I believe that a boffo closing will make this your best I'm aware of.

Can't wait to see the final version!
Cheers,    Ron   jgd

[Guest_Cathy_*]

Hi Ron,

Thanks for stopping in to take a second peek!

My opinion is that your revision effort is mainly magnificant!

Wow!  Thank you!

You've made it ballade metre, -/-/-/-/, -/-/-/, -/-/-/-/, -/-/-/: you've end rhymed it abab: you've maintained the message. Read it to someone or have them read it to you. Greatest improvement I've seen in a long, long time!

I didn't realize I had ballade metre, not even sure what that is.  LOL  Anyway, thank you again!

Going back to the concept that it is a human instinct to like to predict where beats will occur, lines and thoughts will end, where words will rhyme, you can pick out the remaining few spots yourself.

I think I know what you're talking about.  I found a couple of bumpy spots.

Finding a way to rhyme line 8 should be easy enough. You've left many possibilities. Rhyme zone should make it duck soup.

I think I have that one figured out.

Do you want glisten or glistened? Best to keep the verb form as it appears in the earlier lines.

I'm changing the word entirely.  I think it will work better.

Line 18 breaks the pattern of 6 syllables, 3 beats with "distictively". How pure you'll be is up to you.

I'm working on this although I may still end up with 7 syllables.  We'll see.

I personally believe a piece like yours relies on its last quatrain to leave that feeling with the reader that he's just read some extraordinary poetry. Drawing attention to that quatrain then is the goal of the poet. Here's where you prove yourself!

Scary thought!  

You've a great message to communicate and here, if anywhere, you can pull out the stops to make your message emphatic. I wish I knew just how, but someone at this board surely knows or you might yourself.
I believe that a boffo closing will make this your best I'm aware of.

I wish you knew too so you could tell me!  LOL  What do you mean by "boffo
closing"?

Can't wait to see the final version!

Me either!

Thanks Ron!
Cathy :block:  :block:  :block:

[Guest_Don_*]

Hi Cathy,

I read Ron's comments and reread to see what I might suggest to make your last stanza a memorable, striking conclusion.  The theory is like a Shakespearian sonnet in that the for 12 lines sort of ramble compared to the final coupet that strikes like a hammer to deliver a memorable final ring.

I hope to get back with you with a  suggestion or two.

Great job Cathy.

Don