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> Haiku or not, Wizard Award ~ haiku without season
Terocon101
post Jun 1 07, 17:44
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4th version



a soft kiss
upon my skin
snowflake


With special thanks to Lary, Cleo, Liz and Snow.

3rd version

softly as snowfall
she kisses, I feel it not
cool upon my skin


2nd version

Softly like snowfall
she kisses, I feel it not
cold upon my skin


1st version

Softly so softly
you kiss me, I felt it not
not upon my skin


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Terry


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"The imagination imitates. It is the critical spirit that creates."

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laryalee
post Jun 1 07, 21:27
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Hi Terry,
it's nice to meet you!
This is such a lovely poem...
not a haiku, but for me, it has
a tanka feel to it...adding a couple
more lines could create one?

I'm not very good with tanka, but I enjoy
reading it.
Here's a great link, if you're interested:

http://people.uleth.ca/~uzawa/eigotan.htm

One thought, since "kiss" is present tense,
would it work better with "I feel"?

smile.gif
Lary
 
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Eisa
post Jun 2 07, 04:50
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Hi Terry

I give a thumbs up to a tanka for this one. pharoah2.gif

Snow Snowflake.gif


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Cleo_Serapis
post Jun 2 07, 06:35
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Hi Terry,

Welcome to our new forum! cheer.gif

On first read, I made three observations: (1) this seems more like a Senryu since its about 'people' and (2) the repeat of words seems overkill and (3) the double negative seems out of place?

QUOTE
Softly so softly
you kiss me, I felt it not
not upon my skin


Perhaps with a little playing - you could add a season element like 'summer wind, spring breezes' or something else that enhances the 'softly' phrase/image?

Maybe something like:

A summer breeze
echoes a soft kiss --
not upon my skin

or

A warm wind ?

~Cleo galadriel.gif


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Terocon101
post Jun 2 07, 15:47
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Hi Lary,

the pleasures all mine. I'm glad you enjoyed it, even though its not haiku. Hopefully with some tinkering it will fit into that category by the time I'm finished. That said it would be nice to keep the form as it is, I like the shape of her lips.

I will be amending the word 'felt' thanks for spotting that.

ps. I checked out the link, thank you.

Terry


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Terry


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"The imagination imitates. It is the critical spirit that creates."

--Oscar Wilde

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Terocon101
post Jun 2 07, 15:51
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QUOTE (Eisa @ Jun 2 07, 10:50 ) *
Hi Terry

I give a thumbs up to a tanka for this one. pharoah2.gif

Snow Snowflake.gif


Hi Snow,

what a happy chance, your name Snowflake.gif has just helped me sort out the problem.
Thank you.

Terry


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Terry


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--Raymond Rosliep


"The imagination imitates. It is the critical spirit that creates."

--Oscar Wilde

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Terocon101
post Jun 2 07, 15:59
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Hi Cleo,

thanks, I think you've hit the nail on the head. I will be adding a season but not a warm one.

I want to make this fit into haiku form without changing the look of the words too much, I like those lips.

I'll make the changes now and would be grateful of any more advice.

Terry


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Terry


light
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--Raymond Rosliep


"The imagination imitates. It is the critical spirit that creates."

--Oscar Wilde

MM Award Winner
 
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Guest_Kathy_*
post Jun 2 07, 18:01
Post #8





Guest






Terocon wrote:
I want to make this fit into haiku form without changing the look of the words too much, I like those lips.

Ah, you are trying to make a sight poem? I see it now:

Softly like snowfall
she kisses, I feel it not
cold upon my skin

Terry, I think you have got the wrong end of the stick as to what haiku is. Westerners made mistakes from the beginning. Poor old haiku; it was further dishonoured and degraded by the 'anything in 5/7/5 syllables' school.

haiku is ancient; traditional poetry from Japan. There's an immense amount of information on the web, so if you want to write it properly, some work is needed. Have a look at some of the links here, and follow the lessons in others' posts.

Best wishes, mate.
 
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laryalee
post Jun 3 07, 00:05
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Hi Terry,
one thing that takes time to understand
(and it took me a long time!) is that haiku
should leave something for the readers to
discover on their own.
For example, if I understand the gist of what
you're telling us, this is something that came
to me...


her soft kiss
upon my skin...
snowflakes

Does the kiss feel like snowflakes? Does the kiss
happen while snow is falling? The reader must
try to imagine this...and feel the moment,
according to his/her own interpretation.


smile.gif
Lary
 
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Terocon101
post Jun 3 07, 12:47
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QUOTE (Kathy @ Jun 3 07, 00:01 ) *
Terocon wrote:
I want to make this fit into haiku form without changing the look of the words too much, I like those lips.

Ah, you are trying to make a sight poem? I see it now:

Softly like snowfall
she kisses, I feel it not
cold upon my skin

Terry, I think you have got the wrong end of the stick as to what haiku is. Westerners made mistakes from the beginning. Poor old haiku; it was further dishonoured and degraded by the 'anything in 5/7/5 syllables' school.

haiku is ancient; traditional poetry from Japan. There's an immense amount of information on the web, so if you want to write it properly, some work is needed. Have a look at some of the links here, and follow the lessons in others' posts.

Best wishes, mate.


Hi Kathy,

OK, so what I have written above is a 17 syllable sight poem, not haiku, I can live with that. Still, I may try once more to conform and honor is origins instead of having to commit hari-kari.

I will have a look around here and a few other sites, maybe theres a haiku for dummies out there. I do know it came west in the 15th century so maybe its time to break away from tradition and evolve a little.
Although between yours and the other ladies advice I think I'm already getting a feel for it. So thanks to one and all.

These bloody haiku
I dont really see the point
thats if I have one

Ps. Am I the lone male voice in the world of mosaic musings wanting to learn haiku. Lol

Terry


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Terry


light
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--Raymond Rosliep


"The imagination imitates. It is the critical spirit that creates."

--Oscar Wilde

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Terocon101
post Jun 3 07, 13:10
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Hi Lary,

I hear what your saying and I love your edit, I got an image of the kisses melting like snow, and I felt kind of tickled. lovie.gif

her soft kiss
upon my skin...
snowflakes

Although I really I liked it, it loses what I was trying to convey.
That the kiss was so soft it caused no immediate physical sensation, but at that moment a purely emotional one.
I only put the snow in for haiku seasonal requirements. But I feel it did lend something else, like theres something in common between snow and kisses.

Thanks for the explaining your concept of haiku, I think I'm getting there. Do you mind if I place your edit above? Under your name of course.


Terry


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Terry


light
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--Raymond Rosliep


"The imagination imitates. It is the critical spirit that creates."

--Oscar Wilde

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AMETHYST
post Jun 3 07, 14:02
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Hello Terry,

I am a newbie in the world of Haiku, never really thought much of them myself until I found the ahhh haaa moment in them through these threads.



QUOTE (Terocon101 @ Jun 3 07, 14:10 ) *
Hi Lary,

I hear what your saying and I love your edit, I got an image of the kisses melting like snow, and I felt kind of tickled. lovie.gif


Yes, with those slight changes your original post now makes a reader 'feel' it - I would even suggest maing 'her soft kiss' to ... 'a soft kiss'

QUOTE
her soft kiss
upon my skin...
snowflakes

I only put the snow in for haiku seasonal requirements. But I feel it did lend something else, like theres something in common between snow and kisses.
Thanks for the explaining your concept of haiku, I think I'm getting there. Do you mind if I place your edit above? Under your name of course.

Although I really I liked it, it loses what I was trying to convey.
That the kiss was so soft it caused no immediate physical sensation, but at that moment a purely emotional one.


I tried to put together what you intended in my head, but unfortunately your intention doesn't come across- as the revision stands it makes a wonderful poem.

Best Regards, Liz


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Nominate a poem for the InterBoard Poetry Competition by taking into careful consideration those poems you feel would best represent Mosaic Musings. For details, click into the IBPC nomination forum. Did that poem just captivate you? Nominate it for the Faery award today! If perfection of form allured your muse, propose the Crown Jewels award. For more details, click here!

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laryalee
post Jun 3 07, 15:39
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Terry,
it's a delight to discuss this with you...
I can tell that you are sincere, and I appreciate
your comments.
Also, I have a fondness for Irish poets... wink.gif
one dear online friend is Norman Darlington,
and here's a link to his site:

http://xaiku.com/


In case you didn't see it, here's a link from
the Haiku, new perspectives thread on Karnak's
Crossing...it's written by a Japanese poet, which
I feel gives it even greater credibility:

http://www.ahapoetry.com/keirule.htm

For me, the most astonishing news was in this quote:

There are two major linguistic factors that make the
Japanese language more flexible, and thus easier to
fit into a rigid form such as 5-7-5. Both of these factors
derive from the fact that the grammatical units in Japanese
are largely independent, and are relatively free to move about
within a sentence.


Keiko Imaoka then goes on to illustrate, with his
"mother gave it to the kitten" example.

He also mentions the fact that Japanese haiku are
written on a single line with no spacing.
So for those who insist that 5-7-5 is the way to go
because it's a Japanese tradition, why use three lines?


Now, back to your lovely poem!
I was taken by your explanation:

That the kiss was so soft it caused no immediate physical sensation,
but at that moment a purely emotional one.


Now I understand what you are getting at...
perhaps winter is not the best season, since it
indicates a chill? And this feels very warm!
You needn't be afraid of simply saying (or saying simply)
what happened...


spring breeze
the softness of her kiss
reaches my heart

her soft kiss
reaches my heart --
spring breeze


Etc.

(Feel free to use any of my revisions...
in a workshop situation, I always consider
that they become yours...they do not belong to me!)


smile.gif
Lary
 
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Terocon101
post Jun 4 07, 17:22
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[quote name='AMETHYST' date='Jun 3 07, 20:02 ' post='97451']
Hello Terry,

I am a newbie in the world of Haiku, never really thought much of them myself until I found the ahhh haaa moment in them through these threads.


Yes, with those slight changes your original post now makes a reader 'feel' it - I would even suggest maing 'her soft kiss' to ... 'a soft kiss'

[quote]her soft kiss
upon my skin...
snowflakes

Hi Liz,

I too am finding a respect for this form. Where before I thought of them as nice little puzzles now I begin to see their multi-layered subtlety. As well as in trying to write a haiku I have picked up some useful knowledge that I'm sure can be used in other poetry forms. So if I ever tire of saying thank-you to everyone remember this one, thank you.

I was considering , as you have suggested, changing "her soft kiss" to "a soft kiss" its is less selective of the reader. Although since arriving here I have learned that haiku are masculine. I learned that through an excellent link supplied by Lary on comparisons between tanka and haiku, which I cant find now. Murphy and his silly laws.

I will post the revision, with all the accepted suggestions.


Terry

With love and patience, nothing is impossible.

Daisaku Ikeda


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Terry


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"The imagination imitates. It is the critical spirit that creates."

--Oscar Wilde

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Terocon101
post Jun 4 07, 20:00
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Hi Lary,

neighbour's field
newborn lambs play
in their last spring


by Norman Darlington

I had a look at Darlington's stuff, I'm not experienced enough to judge in a precise way but I liked them and have bookmarked the page. He only had one spring haiku in that collection(above) and it really jumped out at me. I thought there were rules on how dark haiku could be, no violence etc. Does this one teeter on the edge? For me the edge is a good place.
Two or three of his are about sheep or their mortality, I wonder if he isn't a vegetarian from County Wicklow, lol. His writing has a real closeness to nature that I just dream about now since I moved to town, but I still recognize its influence.

I read in another link you supplied(and which you mention above) a sitting judge at a haiku competition was commenting about the difference between the Japanese and English language and the difficulties faced by English writers when trying to conform to strict Japanese rules. Rules that were actually created with Japanese in mind. Really interesting questions the whole thing raises about conforming to rules and maybe sacrificing the content.

It was acceptable when haiku to me was just a little puzzle and my care was little.
Haiku is growing on me, although if I'm honest deep down I sometimes think of haiku as a discipline, an exercise to be performed by the writer and not really an expression. Don't shoot, I am attempting to open my mind up to it. Expressing my opinion will probably land me in hot water one of these days.

Anyway, I will be using your edit for the next version, snowflakes of gratitude

Just two small changes but I'm not sure(Will there ever again be certainty?)

#1.
"her soft kiss"
to
"a soft kiss"

Liz pointed out something that was on my mind also, that 'her' was a little exclusive.
She suggested "a soft kiss" at first I agreed but have since reconsidered (as I've little to be worrying about at the moment) I was thinking "slow soft kiss" not at all sure though.

#2.
"snowflakes" I want to make it singular.

a soft kiss
upon my skin
snowflake



I know why you think the snowflakes maybe inappropriate in context of the warm affection and I agreed at first, but maybe theres a aha moment there in that little mismatch. Should I explain?

Also any kissing should be a spring haiku but for me theres just something about the sensation of that single snowflake on the skin. I wonder has there ever been snow in spring? magictongue.png

I'll post, please tell me if it works for you.

Terry


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Terry


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Terocon101
post Jun 4 07, 20:05
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Whoops


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Terry


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"The imagination imitates. It is the critical spirit that creates."

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Guest_Kathy_*
post Jun 4 07, 21:24
Post #17





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QUOTE
These bloody haiku
I dont really see the point
thats if I have one

Ps. Am I the lone male voice in the world of mosaic musings wanting to learn haiku. Lol

Terry


Hahahaha Terry. You'll be glad to know that, besides Norman, there are LOTS of male haijin (writers of haiku.) Traditionally, haijin are students for life. Haiku is THAT vast... so you are in good company, as a student. Me too.

I see you've already taken the time to follow some of the links. I like your attitude, and your spirit. hsdance.gif highfive.gif

We are all 'dummies,' Terry. Jump in; plenty of room in the boat.

Oh BTW it was me who posted the comparisons between haiku and tanka. On Snow's thread, about a blanket of stars.
 
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Terocon101
post Jun 5 07, 11:39
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Kathy wrote,
Hahahaha Terry. You'll be glad to know that, besides Norman, there are LOTS of male haijin (writers of haiku.) Traditionally, haijin are students for life. Haiku is THAT vast... so you are in good company, as a student. Me too.

Oh BTW it was me who posted the comparisons between haiku and tanka. On Snow's thread, about a blanket of stars.
[/quote]


Hi Kathy,

my apologies for misappropriating the source of your link(tanka/haiku comparisons). Its just with all the information theres a LOT to absorb, and I'm grateful for the opportunities to learn so I try not to miss any. Thanks for that.

Haijin is it? Always good to have a new piece of vocab, I have wandered into a hareem of haijin. hehe.

I look forward to interacting with everybody in the short forum but I've been neglecting another project in another forum called Another Sunday I may require another lifetime to complete it .
So Souron's gaze must focus elsewhere for a while.

Talk soon !!

Terry


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Terry


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laryalee
post Jun 5 07, 12:46
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a soft kiss
upon my skin
snowflake

Terry, this is soooo beautiful!
Delicate, yet emotionally packed...

I enjoyed your response to Norman's poetry,
and look forward to your return here.

Your reactions make this all worthwhile!

(I also have a busy month ahead, and
will be limited in the time I can spend here.)

smile.gif
Lary
 
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JustDaniel
post Jun 29 07, 19:46
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A wonderful discussion! Thank you all... and Terry, you ain't the only male wantin' ta learn haiku. I lobbied unsuccessfully for this forum some time back, so I'm very pleased that it's time has finally come. LOVE IT!

Your 'final' choice seems to have evolved quite nicely. I think it fits your stated communication goal.

kissin' off Lightly, Daniel sun.gif


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