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> Terror of Knowledge, A Poem
Guest_Jox_*
post Apr 26 05, 05:29
Post #1





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© James Oxenholme, 2005. I, James Oxenholme, do assert my right to be identified as the author of this work in accordance with Sections 77 and 78 of The Copyrights, Designs And Patents Act, 1988. (Laws of Cymru & England, as recognised by international treaties). This work was simultaneously copyrighted in the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the United States of America. This work is posted as an unpublished work in order to elicit critical assistance and other helpful comment, only.

(Revision from AF - thank you, Grace, Fran and Nina)
Ref: TC 0281 AH

Terror of Knowledge
by TC

PRESSURE...

Knowledge:
Under Pressure

Down Down Down Down
Down Down Down
Down Down
Down

Cognisance is good;
Conscience sanity.
Cognisance is bad;
Conscience insanity.

Friends attempt
scrape to escape -
clawed hands at
window - pains.

Pressurised glass holds fast,
whilst painful life crawls slow.

Glass cage - Let me out!

The mob riots, burns:
buildings; books; people.
Images terrorize my brain:

Samaritans stumble -
whilst we trample -
on piles of bodies,
littering telephone wires
of modern existence.

Love’s under pressure,
love ends at home:

Society scarred by love’s dead rose,
problems defeated by dove’s branch.
Faces marked with love’s pock,
pressure deflated by dove’s peck.

Knowledge buys demons;
Ignorance pays dividends.

Today:
turn your cheek whilst
your neighbour suffers
for the greater good.

Tomorrow:
turn your cheek whilst
their jack boots suffer
you towards cyanide.

To kill society:
group-target
everyone.. mass...
massive pressure
kills us all.

Fascism -
you don’t realise
until it comes for you.

Down Down Down Down
Down Down Down
Down Down
Down

Knowledge:
Under Pressure.

(end)


NB: Previous Version (AG) had the line about glass cage a verse lower than Version AH.

Also, this verse replaced:

How to kill society,
don’t group-target.
Simple mass...
massive pressure
kills us all.

NB: Previous version (AF) had the two "down" verses inverted - i.e.

Down
Down Down
Down Down Down
Down Down Down Down...

==============================================
Notes:

What am I trying to do?

Create a poem which shows pressure on individuals and society.

The sort of pressure which:
  • kicks us in the head as we try to stand up
  • leads us to "grass" on our relatives to the secret police
  • has no redeeming side - we simply go in one direction - down
  • leads to physical and mental breakdown of individuals and society
  • where death is the only escape
If it helps, here are some notes:

The series of "Downs" I know will be an obvious target but I'm not looking to change them unless there is a very good argument for change. (The boring, heavy repetition is the reason they are there).

The shape is abstract of anything specific but is deliberate.

The title and inspiration for this work are from Queen’s “Under Pressure” and also from Nina’s reminder of the Auschwitz commemorations. I have now written two or three poems which have been inspired by Queen. Here's a web-link to their original lyrics which, of course, have no other connection to this poem, save the inspiration which I derived.

lyrics themselves

This was written on 29th January 2005. With our General Election due a week on Thursday and the election of a new Pope, who used to be a member of the Hitler Youth (N.B. There is no suggestion he supported that organisation - he was in it very briefly and left to become an anti-allied-aircraft gunner when he could) the time seemed right to post this. [There is an irony, unconnected with this poem, that the previous Pope was heavily influenced by the Nazis destruction of Poland, whilst the new Pope was part of that Nazi war machine. Maybe that says much for reconciliation. Let us hope so].

Thank you in anticipation.

J.




 
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Siren
post Apr 26 05, 17:47
Post #2


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Real Name: Daniah
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James,

I read this and need to digest it a bit more.. I'll be back later, but had to tell you that I dropped by...

Hugs
Dani


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Cybele
post Apr 29 05, 03:57
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Real Name: Grace
Writer of: Poetry & Prose



Good morning James,

I saw your bump and thought I would just let you know that I called by to read.

I have had bad news about a friend's health this morning and find this a little too depressing to digest fully at present but I will copy it and have a look later, when my spirits have revived somewhat.

I did have one immediate thought though

Down
Down Down
Down Down Down
Down Down Down Down...


I think it would make more sense to reverse this stanza, to direct the eye, so ...

Down Down Down Down
Down Down Down
Down Down
Down


I shall return...    hsdance.gif


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Love

Grace


http://mysite.orange.co.uk/graceingreece

Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the moments that take our breath away.


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Guest_Jox_*
post Apr 29 05, 04:05
Post #4





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Grace, Hi

Thanks very much for your visit and comments.

I am very sorry to hear about your friend - you're right this is too depressing for you at the moment. Go away and don't return until you feel better (no need to return at all really - I don't want to depress you further).

Apropos your down comment - I think you're 100% right - I should have thought of that. I shall change it as per your suggestion. Well done and thank you

Hope you feel better soon.

All the best, James.
 
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Guest_Toumai_*
post Apr 29 05, 09:18
Post #5





Guest






Hi James,

I haven't had much time recently and I can't promise to do the 'in depth thing' as I'm dashing, but I wanted to say I had read this (several times) and make some comments.

I like the revision Grace suggested - I was wondering what the deep meaning was of the differnce, lol

The title "Terror of Knowledge" can be read two ways? The terror of having knowledge that is scary - what will become of us? Or knowledge that can be used to terrorize - surveillance etc? Knowledge that can liberate, create - feared by totalitarianism ... book-burnings and so on ...

PRESSURE...

Knowledge:
Under Pressure

Down Down Down Down
Down Down Down
Down Down
Down


'Down' has so many connotations; depression, going 'downhill', the base point of something ... When things are under pressure they compact, take less space - crushed down ... final state of a black hole singularity.

Cognisance is good;
Conscience sanity.
Cognisance is bad;
Conscience insanity.


'cognisance' means to have knowledge/be aware, so my interpretation here is thjat mostly we would say that is good, but if it leads to our persecution or we cannot reconcile what we know or believe we know with our reality it is quite the opposite.

Friends attempt
scrape to escape -
clawed hands at
window - pains.


Pressurised glass holds fast,
whilst painful life crawls slow.


Chilling pictures of trapped people. The 'pains' is excellent and I like the juxtaposition of the 'fast' and 'slow'. Pressurised glass - all on show, but helpless.

The mob riots, burns:
buildings; books; people.
Images terrorize my brain:

Glass cage - Let me out!


Would it be a distraction to add something on TV screens - also glass enclosing those images, perhaps?

Samaritans stumble -
whilst we trample -
on piles of bodies,
littering telephone wires
of modern existence
.

I know that the Samaritans have a helpline for the suicidal, but I'm not sure that this verse quite worked for me; bodies can't litter wires ... at least, not and be trampled at the same time (tightrope walking - sorry)

Would something like the following work?

Samaritans stumble -
whilst we trample -
on piles of bodies;
corpses (or death masques?) strung
on telephone wires
of modern existence


Love’s under pressure,
love ends at home:


So no love outside ... or home kills love?

You end with a colon, but the next stanza starts with a capital - so either colon needs to be a full stop or 's' lower case

Society scarred by love’s dead rose,
problems defeated by dove’s branch.
Faces marked with love’s pock,
pressure deflated by dove’s peck.


The wrong kind of adulation/adoration/veneration can be destructive?
The dove with a branch was from the story of Noah, but has lately been a peace emblem- Piccasso's famous painting as an example. The dove carries the olive branch, a peace-offering.

A dove's peck is insignificant, harmless (doves are gentle, vegetarian) but some action so slight may start a massive event that will change the world?

Knowledge buys demons;
Ignorance pays dividends.


You have some wonderful lines in this poem, James.

So when you KNOW you can't ignore what is going on. Or you can control the demons - buy them off. Ignorance means peace of mind, and can be expoited by those in power to their own ends. Sweat shop owners don't want us to think about the conditions our trainers/carpets/hand-embroidered shirts come from. The Nazis didn't want anyone to consider where the Jews were being taken when they were rounded up - just move into all that vacant property and close your ears to the rumours.

Today:
turn your cheek whilst
your neighbour suffers
for the greater good.


Look the other way and let things take their 'natural' course.

Tomorrow:
turn your cheek whilst
their jack boots suffer
you towards cyanide.


And the evil will become more powerful while we pretend it doesn't exist.

This has overtones of a quote I've seen in the window of our local Amnesty bookshop (I forget who by - Koestler?) along the lines of 'When they came for the Jews I didn't speak out. When they came for the disabled I didn't speak out ... When they came for me there was no one left to speak out' - the original is much better (darn).

How to kill society,
don’t group-target.
Simple mass...
massive pressure
kills us all.


But surely Nazis etc start by group targetting. Tribal 'togetherness' and 'belonging' is best fostered by perseverating on those excluded from that 'in-group'

Fascism -
you don’t realise
until it comes for you.


An insidious rise until it is too powerful.

Down Down Down Down
Down Down Down
Down Down
Down

Knowledge:
Under Pressure.

James, I hope I'm not miles off the mark with my comments. Sorry it is not so much a crit as a commentary, but, as usual, I find your ideas fascinating, if grim in this case.

Fran




 
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Guest_Jox_*
post Apr 29 05, 16:25
Post #6





Guest






Hi Fran,

Thanks for your comments, hitherto.

I think I shall wait until you return to reply. But no hurry - next week, if you are able would be fine. (This poem is from January anyway).

Just a couple of quick observations:

Though I hope the poem is "timeless" as a theme, I did set it in Nazi Germany. The mob riots etc was the Munich Beer Hall Putsch as well as other incidents. The burning of books was a favourite Nazi anti-intellectual japes. Although tv had been invented by then it was hardly used (not sure if Germany had it at all).

"Samaritans" was a generic term - Char Varah's organisation was only established in the 1954 (post WWII). I was using the term more in the Biblical sense - though I can certainly see the telephone-line link (I can't remember if I meant that at the time or not).

The piles of bodies littering telephone lines was referring to the concentration camp victims - as news of their existence was wired around the World. It was not literal, no.

Anyway, I hope that helps for when you return.

Thanks so far and I look forward to any more comments.

Oh, yes the difference in the downs.

Grace's version puts more pressure on the pile; forcing a big area into a small one (this is also a visual poem as I said in the notes).

My original was "building up" the pressure from one to four "downs" - I imagined it chanted like the chorus in a play might do. However, I think the chanting works both ways and Grace's works better visualy. So I changed it.

All the best, J.
 
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Guest_Billydo_*
post Apr 30 05, 03:54
Post #7





Guest






Hi James

This amazing poem made me think reactively of the rise of Nazism and persecution of the Jews, a movie where the PM (Peter Cook ... I think) used referenda to numb the population into dumb submission, and the ID card debate. What have you got to fear if you do nothing wrong? ... ask six million Jews.

But for me, this whole poem rests on a six word stanza that is starkly truthful and immensely powerful:

Knowledge buys demons;
Ignorance pays dividends.

Those two lines are a whole poem. Brilliant!

Cheers

Mike
 
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Guest_Jox_*
post Apr 30 05, 07:06
Post #8





Guest






Hi Mike,

Thanks for your visit and comments...

>>This amazing poem made me think reactively of the rise of Nazism and persecution of the Jews,

Yes, I hope the poem applies to all totalitarian regimes but it certainly was based on the Nazis.

>>a movie where the PM (Peter Cook ... I think)

A buffoon as PM - surely not?

>> used referenda to numb the population into dumb submission, and the ID card debate. What have you got to fear if you do nothing wrong? ... ask six million Jews.

That's the point, isn't it? We can't.

>>But for me, this whole poem rests on a six word stanza that is starkly truthful and immensely powerful:

Knowledge buys demons;
Ignorance pays dividends.

>>Those two lines are a whole poem. Brilliant!

Thank you very much. (I won't mention it to them, lest they declare UDI but much appreciated).

James.
 
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Guest_Jox_*
post May 1 05, 03:15
Post #9





Guest






Hi,

Crits: Thanks to Grace and Fran for your suggestions and to Mike and Dani for your appreciation.

This is a complex poem (honestly) so might I ask if there are any more suggested changes out there... I can't quite believe it is perfect! (much as I'd would like to).

Thanks in anticipation.

James.
 
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Guest_Toumai_*
post May 1 05, 08:47
Post #10





Guest






James,

I've finished my crit (well, more comentary, I think) and edited the original part of my crit, too. Sorry for the break.

Fran
 
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Guest_Jox_*
post May 1 05, 15:53
Post #11





Guest






Thanks Fran - I'll reply as soon as poss. Much appreciated.

J.
 
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Guest_Jox_*
post May 2 05, 05:12
Post #12





Guest






Hi Fran,

Thank you very much for your extensive crit on what, I appreciate, is a difficult work.

>>I haven't had much time recently and I can't promise to do the 'in depth thing' as I'm dashing, but I wanted to say I had read this (several times) and make some comments.

Your reply is certainly impressive.

>>I like the revision Grace suggested - I was wondering what the deep meaning was of the differnce, lol

Answered (in a posting above)

>>The title "Terror of Knowledge" can be read two ways? The terror of having knowledge that is scary - what will become of us? Or knowledge that can be used to terrorize - surveillance etc? Knowledge that can liberate, create - feared by totalitarianism ... book-burnings and so on ...

Yes, precisely my meaning. Also, slightly a variation on your first meaning - the terror of having knowledge about people which could mean their destruction if we tell others.

PRESSURE...

Knowledge:
Under Pressure

Down Down Down Down
Down Down Down
Down Down
Down


>>'Down' has so many connotations; depression, going 'downhill', the base point of something ... When things are under pressure they compact, take less space - crushed down ... final state of a black hole singularity.

I hadn’t thought of the space metaphor - but yes, absolutely. Nothing escapes the black hole.

Cognisance is good;
Conscience sanity.
Cognisance is bad;
Conscience insanity.


>>'cognisance' means to have knowledge/be aware, so my interpretation here is that mostly we would say that is good, but if it leads to our persecution or we cannot reconcile what we know or believe we know with our reality it is quite the opposite.

Yes. And out conscience in such times can be torturous.

Friends attempt
scrape to escape -
clawed hands at
window - pains.


Pressurised glass holds fast,
whilst painful life crawls slow.


>>Chilling pictures of trapped people. The 'pains' is excellent and I like the juxtaposition of the 'fast' and 'slow'. Pressurised glass - all on show, but helpless.

Thank you.

The mob riots, burns:
buildings; books; people.
Images terrorize my brain:

Glass cage - Let me out!


>>Would it be a distraction to add something on TV screens - also glass enclosing those images, perhaps?

I see your point - and in pure metaphorical terms I think that would work. However, though this is meant to apply to any age and regime, it was “set” in that of the Nazis - pre-dating tv.

Samaritans stumble -
whilst we trample -
on piles of bodies,
littering telephone wires
of modern existence
.

>>I know that the Samaritans have a helpline for the suicidal, but I'm not sure that this verse quite worked for me; bodies can't litter wires ... at least, not and be trampled at the same time (tightrope walking - sorry)

"Samaritans" was a generic term - Char Varah's organisation was only established in the 1954 (post WWII). I was using the term more in the Biblical sense - though I can certainly see the telephone-line link (I can't remember if I meant that at the time or not).

The piles of bodies littering telephone lines was referring to the concentration camp victims - as news of their existence was wired around the World. It was not literal, no.

Moreover, there was meant to be a suggestion of us treading a fine line - like a high-wire act.

>>Would something like the following work?

Samaritans stumble -
whilst we trample -
on piles of bodies;
corpses (or death masques?) strung
on telephone wires
of modern existence

Thank you. It works but doesn’t quite have the meaning I intended.

Love’s under pressure,
love ends at home:


>>So no love outside ... or home kills love?

Quite - that was the double-meaning I was asking. Remember the Hitler Youth who betrayed their parents to the Gestapo?

>>You end with a colon, but the next stanza starts with a capital - so either colon needs to be a full stop or 's' lower case

LOL. My abuse of punctuation - as mentioned in Blue Belle.  Anyway, capitals can follow colons (as in a list). I like the fact that that line follows a colon but it is separate so I’ll keep the capital, thanks. In pure punctuation terms for prose, though, I think you may be correct.

Society scarred by love’s dead rose,
problems defeated by dove’s branch.
Faces marked with love’s pock,
pressure deflated by dove’s peck.


>>The wrong kind of adulation/adoration/veneration can be destructive?

Yes it can. “Heil Hitler“.

>>The dove with a branch was from the story of Noah, but has lately been a peace emblem- Picasso's famous painting as an example. The dove carries the olive branch, a peace-offering.

Which painting? Gurneka? (More Nazis).

>>A dove's peck is insignificant, harmless (doves are gentle, vegetarian) but some action so slight may start a massive event that will change the world?

Yes but I also meant in terms of lancing a boil (pock) - the dove would act as a needle.

Knowledge buys demons;
Ignorance pays dividends.


>>You have some wonderful lines in this poem, James.

Thanks, Fran.

>>So when you KNOW you can't ignore what is going on. Or you can control the demons - buy them off. Ignorance means peace of mind, and can be exploited by those in power to their own ends.

Yes. Cue state racism.

Sweat shop owners don't want us to think about the conditions our trainers/carpets/hand-embroidered shirts come from. The Nazis didn't want anyone to consider where the Jews were being taken when they were rounded up - just move into all that vacant property and close your ears to the rumours.

Yup. Well done.

Today:
turn your cheek whilst
your neighbour suffers
for the greater good.


>>Look the other way and let things take their 'natural' course.

Well, unnatural, yes.

Tomorrow:
turn your cheek whilst
their jack boots suffer
you towards cyanide.


>>And the evil will become more powerful while we pretend it doesn't exist.

Yes and if we didn’t stand up to it when it came for others, it will surely come for us.

>>This has overtones of a quote I've2 seen in the window of our local Amnesty bookshop (I forget who by - Koestler?) along the lines of 'When they came for the Jews I didn't speak out. When they came for the disabled I didn't speak out ... When they came for me there was no one left to speak out' - the original is much better (darn).
That is it - I remember that too, now. May have been in my sub-conscious when I wrote this.

How to kill society,
don’t group-target.
Simple mass...
massive pressure
kills us all.


>>But surely Nazis etc start by group targeting.

Yes.

>>Tribal 'togetherness' and 'belonging' is best fostered by perseverating on those excluded from that 'in-group'

Sorry, I can’t work-out that word (nor can my spell-checker!) - perseverating - don’t understand the sentence. (Have tried hard).

Fascism -
you don’t realise
until it comes for you.


>>An insidious rise until it is too powerful.

Yes.

Down Down Down Down
Down Down Down
Down Down
Down

Knowledge:
Under Pressure.


>>James, I hope I'm not miles off the mark with my comments. Sorry it is not so much a crit as a commentary, but, as usual, I find your ideas fascinating, if grim in this case.

Thanks Fran - I think you’re spot-on to my meaning with most and offer a couple of interesting ideas I hadn’t seen. But if you had been “off the mark” I wouldn’t have minded. I find different interpretations fascinating.

I really appreciate your comments, Fran.

I’m am literally delighted (when I say “literally” I mean that) that you find my ideas fascinating and I’m glad I can convey them to you in writing.

Thank you very much indeed.

J.




 
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Guest_Nina_*
post May 2 05, 07:30
Post #13





Guest






Hi James

I haven’t looked at any of the other crits as I didn’t want to be swayed by other people’s thoughts so apologies if I repeat what has already been said.

Firstly I’m flattered that one of my poems gave you some inspiration and I do like the Queen song Under Pressure.

Here are some of the impressions I got reading the poem.  I hope some of it makes sense as my brain is not at its best after a long night-flight.  

After a few cups of tea I have added a bit more to my comments.



Knowledge:
Under Pressure

Down Down Down Down
Down Down Down
Down Down
Down

Having knowledge can be a big responsibility.  We have to decide what to do with that information.  I like the repetitive downs.  They really give the feeling of the weight of that responsibility.  Also from reading your notes the comparison between pressure pushing you down and depression dragging you down.


Cognisance is good;
Conscience sanity.
Cognisance is bad;
Conscience insanity.

I see what you are trying to say here – knowledge can be good and bring sanity or bad and insane, often driven by insanity and creating more insanity among those brainwashed by Fascism.  My only minor nit  is that looking up cognisance on dictionary.com it says that cognisance and conscience are synonyms

Friends attempt
scrape to escape -
clawed hands at
window - pains.

Pressurised glass holds fast,
whilst painful life crawls slow.

A clever use of pane/pain
Two  images spring into my mind - the first is the terrible sound from finger nails scraping on the “blackboard” that was so painful to listen to.  The second is Edward Munch’s painting of The Scream, the silent scream that no one hears.


Glass cage - Let me out!
I also see a goldfish bowl and the glass cages that animals are kept in at the zoo.  Every movement is observed, there is no privacy or dignity.  "Big Brother is watching your every move".  I do wonder if this line should come before the mob riots it seems to carry on the theme of the glass, whereas the previous verse moves forward.  Of course as ever it is your poem and your choices.

The mob riots, burns:
buildings; books; people.
Images terrorize my brain:

This is a very powerful verse and I think the last line excellent.  This is what happens when people blindly support Fascism.  Do they even know what they are rioting against, why they are burning books and people?  They have lost the ability to think for themselves and just follow the majority.

Samaritans stumble -
whilst we trample -
on piles of bodies,
littering telephone wires
of modern existence.

this verse makes me think of how the world today has become a very selfish place.  People are only interested in themselves.  The sense of community has been lost, leaving many lonely souls and the Samaritans cannot cope.  We don’t care so long as we get what we want.


Society scarred by love’s dead rose,
problems defeated by dove’s branch.
Faces marked with love’s pock,
pressure deflated by dove’s peck.

this is a slightly more positive verse.  The dove of peace can ease the pressure put on society by mis-placed twisted love.


Knowledge buys demons;
Ignorance pays dividends.

Today:
turn your cheek whilst
your neighbour suffers
for the greater good.

Tomorrow:
turn your cheek whilst
their jack boots suffer
you towards cyanide.

sadly this is painfully true.  A couple of months ago I watched a programme in which a Grandmother took her grandson back to Poland (I think).  They went back to the place where she had been brought up till the Nazis rounded up all the Jews and sent them to Auschwitz.  She spoke to some Poles still living there, who had been living in the same area during the war.  She asked them if they knew what was going on just round the corner from there houses.  They shrugged their shoulders and replied “What could we have done”.  Their silent abetting (and that of millions of others) led to the murder of millions while they lived safe and secure to tell the tale.


Fascism -
you don’t realise
until it comes for you.

Down Down Down Down
Down Down Down
Down Down
Down

Knowledge:
Under Pressure.

Hitler was very clever, feeding on the German peoples’ dissatisfaction and poverty after the first World War to generate his rise to power and manipulate them to use the Jewish people as a scapegoat for their problems.

A good ending, reversal of the first two verses reinforces the message.

Thanks for the information about the new Pope.  We saw the announcement on CNN whilst on holiday and having heard that he was German and born before WW2, one of the first things I  wondered about was how active he had been in the Nazi War machine.
Thanks for another very thought-provoking poem.  I shall now go and read some of the other crits and may come back again.

Nina




 
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Guest_Jox_*
post May 2 05, 07:41
Post #14





Guest






Hi Nina,

Welcome back! Glad you had a good, if tiring, time.

Thank you for this extensive commentry / crit and for working on this so quickly after your return.

You've said quite a lot and I need to respond properly. As I'm soon to go out, I shall leave this until later / tomorrow, then reply properly.

In the meantime, thank you very much indeed.

All the best, James.
 
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Guest_Nina_*
post May 2 05, 07:53
Post #15





Guest






Hi James

Having read Fran's crit and your response, I agree with her that

Samaritans stumble -
whilst we trample -
on piles of bodies,
littering telephone wires
of modern existence.

doesn't really convey to me the meaning you intended.  I think using the words modern existence made me think you were talking about today as in the 21st century and the use of telephone wires for the phone and more the internet rather than the Nazi Concentration Camps.  Also when I think of people finding out about the horrors I tend to think of the news reels shown at cinemas.

Nina
 
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Guest_Don_*
post May 2 05, 08:20
Post #16





Guest






Hi Jox,

I should not open my yap until reading your reference provided.

Too late!

I am of the view that knowledge brings responsibility, and moral attempts to correct terror creates haunting demons. Inner retrospect of knowledge is terror. I looked at your Good Samaritan lines as the problem is so immense the samaritans are hopelessly overwhelmed.  To standby is not innocence, but criminal negligence.  We all need as many demons as we can bear.

I would not have known the latest Pope had fought with the axis nations if not for your enlightenment.  Our own American Henry Ford was pro Nazi.  You know Hitler was not original in scope of genocide.  He had a successful model to choose from history shelf.  When to forgive and what to forgive are heavy charges.

As to the pyramid and inverted pyramid of "down" I think the message being sandwiched between a top flat and bottom flat are appropos.  The latter of course is an arrow compatible with human bias of up over down.  This arrow also lends an attenuation from the message into silence.  Hopefully contemplation silence.  Likewise the beginning pyramid is graphically coming from nothing to something.

The repeating "down" is read as text then soon converted to graphic image cognizance.  Therefore, the repeat is not objectionable and does lend a positive helping hand.

The presentation is creatively original.  It is like a bigger bill board to attract busy drivers attention to a most important message.

Beyond these first cursory observations and impressions, I hope to return after looking into your supplied reference.

Don
 
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Guest_Jox_*
post May 2 05, 16:46
Post #17





Guest






Hi Don

Thanks for your comments and visit.

>>I should not open my yap until reading your reference provided.

LOL We all talk before we should - makes the World go round.

>>Too late!

:)

>>I am of the view that knowledge brings responsibility,

Agreed. Certainly right do.

>> and moral attempts to correct terror creates haunting demons. Inner retrospect of knowledge is terror. I looked at your Good Samaritan lines as the problem is so immense the Samaritans are hopelessly overwhelmed. To standby is not innocence, but criminal negligence. We all need as many demons as we can bear.

I have difficulty actually condemning people for not (say) opposing the Nazis - because I have (thank goodness) not been tested in that way and I don’t know how brave I would be. However, I have certainly said that, if people don’t act, they themselves may be victims in the end.

>>I would not have known the latest Pope had fought with the axis nations if not for your enlightenment. Our own American Henry Ford was pro Nazi. You know Hitler was not original in scope of genocide. He had a successful model to choose from history shelf. When to forgive and what to forgive are heavy charges.

There were many Brits just prior to WWII who were pro-Nazi. I don’t think people vary as much between countries as we’d like to think.

Hitler certainly was one in a long line of historical genocidal tyrants. However, he was the most prolific. (N.B. Joe Stalin was responsible for more deaths).

>>As to the pyramid and inverted pyramid of "down" I think the message being sandwiched between a top flat and bottom flat are appropos. The latter of course is an arrow compatible with human bias of up over down. This arrow also lends an attenuation from the message into silence. Hopefully contemplation silence. Likewise the beginning pyramid is graphically coming from nothing to something.

>>The repeating "down" is read as text then soon converted to graphic image cognizance. Therefore, the repeat is not objectionable and does lend a positive helping hand.

Thank you very much.

The presentation is creatively original. It is like a bigger bill board to attract busy drivers attention to a most important message.

Again, thank you, Don.

Beyond these first cursory observations and impressions, I hope to return after looking into your supplied reference.

I shall look forward to your return. Again, thank you, Don.

Best wishes, James.




 
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Guest_Jox_*
post May 2 05, 20:09
Post #18





Guest






Hi Nina,

Thank you for your detailed crit.

>>Firstly I’m flattered that one of my poems gave you some inspiration and I do like the Queen song Under Pressure.

I’m glad you’re pleased - but no flattering - your work is excellent. I know thee and me are big Queen fans.

>>Here are some of the impressions I got reading the poem. I hope some of it makes sense as my brain is not at its best after a long night-flight.

Lol! Mine never is!

>>After a few cups of tea I have added a bit more to my comments.

Thanks, Nina.

>>Having knowledge can be a big responsibility. We have to decide what to do with that information. I like the repetitive downs. They really give the feeling of the weight of that responsibility. Also from reading your notes the comparison between pressure pushing you down and depression dragging you down.

Thanks. Great interpretation.

The Conscience / Cognisance verse...

>>I see what you are trying to say here – knowledge can be good and bring sanity or bad and insane, often driven by insanity and creating more insanity among those brainwashed by Fascism. My only minor nit is that looking up cognisance on dictionary.com it says that cognisance and conscience are synonyms

Thanks for your research. However, few words are perfect synonyms. I think this probably hinges on different meanings of “conscience.” Here are my meanings:

from Dictionary. Com...

Cognisance - n : having knowledge of
Conscience - The awareness of a moral or ethical aspect to one's conduct together with the urge to prefer right over wrong: Let your conscience be your guide. A source of moral or ethical judgment or pronouncement: a document that serves as the nation's conscience.

There are subsequent definitions of “conscience” which are similar to “cognisance” - but the above is what I meant.

So here was my meaning...

Cognisance is good; - thought-knowledge is good
Conscience sanity. - sane to be moral / ethical
Cognisance is bad; - thought-knowledge is bad (because of what we can know)
Conscience insanity. - insane to be moral / ethical when the overall community is not.

I was trying to wrestle with how we should mentally come to terms with horror - what should we do; what can we do?

I hope that helps?







>>Friends attempt...

>>Pressurised glass holds fast...

Two images spring into my mind - the first is the terrible sound from finger nails scraping on the “blackboard” that was so painful to listen to. The second is Edward Munch’s painting of The Scream, the silent scream that no one hears.

Yup, they were my ideas too. Thanks!

>>Glass cage - Let me out!

>>I also see a goldfish bowl and the glass cages that animals are kept in at the zoo. Every movement is observed, there is no privacy or dignity. "Big Brother is watching your every move". I do wonder if this line should come before the mob riots it seems to carry on the theme of the glass, whereas the previous verse moves forward. Of course as ever it is your poem and your choices.

Again, my ideas, too. I’ll look at the sequencing, thank you.

>>The mob riots, burns:...

>>This is a very powerful verse and I think the last line excellent. This is what happens when people blindly support Fascism. Do they even know what they are rioting against, why they are burning books and people? They have lost the ability to think for themselves and just follow the majority.

Thank you.

Samaritans stumble...

>>this verse makes me think of how the world today has become a very selfish place. People are only interested in themselves. The sense of community has been lost, leaving many lonely souls and the Samaritans cannot cope. We don’t care so long as we get what we want.

Again, I set this in Nazi Germany (or similar) but, yes, I can see it might well apply to modern Western liberal democracies, too.

Society scarred by love’s dead rose...

>>this is a slightly more positive verse. The dove of peace can ease the pressure put on society by mis-placed twisted love.

Indeed. Thanks.

Today:...
Tomorrow:...

sadly this is painfully true. A couple of months ago I watched a programme in which a Grandmother took her grandson back to Poland (I think). They went back to the place where she had been brought up till the Nazis rounded up all the Jews and sent them to Auschwitz. She spoke to some Poles still living there, who had been living in the same area during the war. She asked them if they knew what was going on just round the corner from there houses. They shrugged their shoulders and replied “What could we have done”. Their silent abetting (and that of millions of others) led to the murder of millions while they lived safe and secure to tell the tale.

Yes, I saw that too. I agree with what you say.

>>Hitler was very clever, feeding on the German peoples’ dissatisfaction and poverty after the first World War to generate his rise to power and manipulate them to use the Jewish people as a scapegoat for their problems.

Indeed. Precisely so.

>>A good ending, reversal of the first two verses reinforces the message.

Thank you.

>>Thanks for the information about the new Pope. We saw the announcement on CNN whilst on holiday and having heard that he was German and born before WW2, one of the first things I wondered about was how active he had been in the Nazi War machine.

Thanks.

>>Thanks for another very thought-provoking poem. I shall now go and read some of the other crits and may come back again.

Thank you very much, Nina.

>>Having read Fran's crit and your response, I agree with her that

Samaritans stumble -...

>>doesn't really convey to me the meaning you intended. I think using the words modern existence made me think you were talking about today as in the 21st century and the use of telephone wires for the phone and more the internet rather than the Nazi Concentration Camps. Also when I think of people finding out about the horrors I tend to think of the news reels shown at cinemas

OK, I thought of the newspapers and broadcasters but I know the more graphic images were seen at cinemas. I’ll think on that. Thanks, Nina.

Thank you very much, indeed.

J.
 
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Guest_Jox_*
post May 2 05, 20:11
Post #19





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Hi Dani,

Sorry, I thought I'd replied to you already. My apologies.

I'll look forward to your return, if you do. Thanks in anticipations.

James.
 
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Guest_Don_*
post May 3 05, 08:04
Post #20





Guest






Hi Jox,

I read your referenced poem by Queen.  It did little for me. If a person were in a public square ranting these words from a platform, I would tend to continue walking with minimal notice.  I think Queen's poem and yours are emotional appeals.

Both convey the fact that steam is agitated within its container, but no resolution for relief, escape, or useful directive.

Mother Teresa is a classic example of a good samaritan who did not let impossible odds thwart her services.  

The ancient Greeks put it in a nutshell word, "hope."  When Pandora innocently opened the box (casket) she released all the plagues and sorrows upon mankind, only "hope" remained.  It remains the sole solace for mankind and resides inside each of us until we are lost.

Cheers 'ole chap

Don
 
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