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Posted by: Cleo_Serapis Jan 22 05, 08:42

Hello everyone!  :wave:

We've made many changes to our site since our opening in August 2003.

I'd like to hear your thoughts regarding our site (both the forum board and the home pages).

Here are some preliminary ideas I came up with to start:
[*] What do you like about MM?
[*] What do you think could/should be improved?
[*] Is our staff helpful?
[*] Can you contact us easily?
[*] Would you like to see anything different?
[*] Would you like to change your role here?

These are just questions to start you thinking. Honest feedback is most appreciated!

Thanks in advance!
~Cleo  :pharoah2

Posted by: Toumai Jan 23 05, 03:38

Hi Cleo,

I hope everyone will give some feedback.

What do you like about MM?

It is so friendly and 'warm' but yet the crits are careful and generally 'in depth' but without critter feeling they have to write reams; it is okay simply to say 'I like this' if there is nothing else that needs to be said. Most people seem to crit far more pieces than the rules demand. There is a lovely positive feeling with most of the crits: critters really try to help nurture others' writing.

What do you think could/should be improved?

Is there a simple way of listing all your work pieces posted? In each separate forum you can sort by 'topic starter' to find work, but in your profile it just shows all posts, with no way to sort.


Is our staff helpful?

Very. And welcoming.  


Can you contact us easily?

Erm ... you're always around, so of course.  :pharoah2


Would you like to see anything different?

I'm not sure about mentioning this, but I think in some ways the site is a little too cosy: as one discussion mentioned, there are words used on the BBC every evening that are forbidden here and violence on the news that would be very much frowned on. However, I think it is more important to keep the atmosphere safe than please all writers all the time - so those of us writing unsuitable material will have to find other outlets for thsoe pieces.


Would you like to change your role here?

I'm not quite sure what this question means.


Fran

Posted by: Nina Jan 23 05, 04:14

Hi Cleo

Here is my feedback on the questions you asked

What do you like about MM?
Most important is the opportunity to share my poems in an environment that feels safe.
MM is warm and friendly
Crit is always done in a sensitive, constructive, non judgemental way.
Each poem/short story is acknowledged and valued.
The quality of poetry is outstanding
The 1:3:2 rule is excellent, ensuring quality rather than quantity is maintained.  It also means that you can take time to read everything that is posted and develop interesting discussions on issues raised in a poem/short story.
I have just found the competitions and am enjoying the challenge.  They are also great for sparking off inspiration on what to write about.

What do you think could/should be improved?
It takes quite a while to discover all there is to offer on the site and it can be difficult to find it again.  I'm not sure how this could be improved though

Is our staff helpful?
very helpful

Can you contact us easily?
I have never tried but I'm sure that I could if I wanted to.

Would you like to see anything different?
I can't think of anything

Would you like to change your role here?
no, I am happy as I am.

Posted by: Jox Jan 23 05, 06:06

Hi,

Apropos Fran's comment about content and remembering Nina's comment about safe.

Maybe we could make use of a "less safe" member's only forum. I only mean less safe in terms of language and concepts allowed. Nastiness or rudeness from critters (should there be any) should not be allowed - maintaining what people rightly regard as MM's friendly nature.

It does rather pain me that Fran feels she has to take some writing elsewhere because of words or topic (I am in the same situation sometimes). I think that a members' only crit forum with a warning attached would enable only those members who wished to post / visit / crit there but it would, perhaps, be a more "adult" approach. We do have forums which border on this but they would need to be promoted as full crit forums for more violent / sexual / adult / dark works. I remember that Alan posted a work with Fxxx in and the system put sharp marks there instead ####. I'm not sure that a special forum would overcome that, as I think it is an overall software control (?) but in we could get round that - especially in such a mature forum.

I greatly welcome the recent revision of poetry forums. I know there were concerns but the new forums have taken off very quickly and I have seen no post-change worries expressed.

I would welcome other simplification measures - for easier navigation and better clarification. The forum system was established before we knew how MM would work and has grown like Topsey since. An overall review of what would best suit current (and future) needs might be sensible now.

Overall: This is clearly the friendliest and most useful crit site I've been on. The postings also look excellent - with lots of flexibility and are very attractive and allow variations (like Fran's glow-title in her competition submission and many other examples).

I think we all owe Lori a big thank you for the vision, effort, finance and love which she has put into this site. I don't want to sound fawning but I really do think she deserves great praise and thanks.

James.

Posted by: Nina Jan 23 05, 07:08

It does rather pain me that Fran feels she has to take some writing elsewhere because of words or topic (I am in the same situation sometimes).

I agree with you James.  Having seen the judgemental nasty reaction, Fran got posting on another site, it does seem a shame that she, you and others are stopped from posting in one of the few places where you'd be given a fair, sensitive and honest crit.

I am not even sure what the rules are here as to what is acceptable or not, particularly in terms of subject matter.

Nina

Posted by: Cleo_Serapis Jan 23 05, 08:12

Hello Fran and thanks for your feedback!  

Unfortunately, there are restrictions with Ikonboard. We did add a hack that allows you to view all posts in the profile page, however, it also shows comments you've made to other threads. Currently, what you mentioned is how I look for posts by member (within each forum itself and then sort by 'Topic Starter'.

QUOTE

Would you like to see anything different?

I'm not sure about mentioning this, but I think in some ways the site is a little too cosy: as one discussion mentioned, there are words used on the BBC every evening that are forbidden here and violence on the news that would be very much frowned on. However, I think it is more important to keep the atmosphere safe than please all writers all the time - so those of us writing unsuitable material will have to find other outlets for those pieces.

Good question worth mentioning. When I first began developing the site, two key elements surfaced:
[*] To offer friendly, yet thorough critiques, where we will support those members wishing to enhance their works in a setting that is relaxed, fun and challenging.
[*] Maintain a standard that is suitable for all ages and cultures of people.

Interestingly enough, our moderators had quite a discussion regarding this and the following became a brief summary that you'll find in our forums;
MM's Posting Standard:
Mosaic Musings is designed to meet a suitable standard for all ages. No dark, distasteful, explicit, obscene or profane language and/or implications thereof are allowed within our forums. If your post(s) contains any such material, then please email or PM a Praetorian.

There are many interpretations of what exactly qualifies as dark, explicit etc.. for example, some words that come to mind are:
wicca (satanic worship), cutting/self-mutilation, rape, eroticism, sexual interactions, and anything that infringes our TOU Code of Conduct: any Content that is unlawful, harmful, threatening, obscene, abusive, tortuous, defamatory, libelous, hateful, or racially, ethnically or otherwise objectionable.

The outcome of these discussions (and there were plenty within our staff private forum)   was to agree that in the general forums, these 'questionable topics' may be moved into another of two forums:
[*]Ra's Renderings (Mentors Only) - the forum for infringed posts whereby we notify the poster by PM of the following:
'Hello (member name).

Your {title} piece posted in {forum name} has been moved into our mentor forum for discussion on content. This, in no way, reflects on you ~ rather it is intended to uphold the standards (and limitations) that Mosaic Musings has placed upon itself. We will reply to you within the next 3-7 days with the outcome of our decision. Thank you!'

If the staff deems the content 'inappropriate', then the post remains in Ra's and a follow up PM is sent to the member advising them of such.

While we acknowledge that your piece is well written, we will not be re-posting it into our public forum as the subject matter you have chosen is outside of our self-set limitations. We will be happy to receive other posts from you if you so wish. Again, this, in no way, reflects on you ~ rather it is intended to uphold the standards (and limitations) that Mosaic Musings has placed upon itself. If this subject matter is more to you liking, we suggest you post elsewhere on the Web.
[*]Shambhalan Sanctuary (Members Only) - This forum is (with a password requirement) to allow our members to post writings that tend to be of a more adult-oriented theme. Please keep in mind that the posts here must comply with our Terms of Use statement. No dark, explicit, erotic, suicidal, profane types of posts will be kept here. As long as your post is classy and shows a maturity with metaphor, rhythm etc.. it can be posted. Those posts that are just sleezy in nature have no place here at Mosaic Musings. We stand firm on this. There are plenty of other writing sites that cater to those topics and our members are free to choose as they wish.

To qualify to post here: You must ask a mentor for the password to this forum once the member has been on site for at least 90 days AND has at least 50 posts at MM. This way, we can see how the members have previously interacted with others.

This is a PRIVATE 'Members Only' forum.


Does this answer your query Fran?  

Thanks again for asking the questions!
~Cleo  

Posted by: Cleo_Serapis Jan 23 05, 08:25

Hello Nina.  

Thanks very much for your valuable feedback!  

When we first opened the forum board, I did not have the categories that you see today. I had every forum on the front page and it was VERY INTIMIDATING, especially for those who only want to post/read/interact in a specific venue i.e. poetry or prose. It was overwhelming - today, we now have 45 forums (even more than at start up). Can you imagine your first visit to MM and then seeing and scrolling through all those choice? YIKES!      

By creating our 8 categories below, I was able to restrict quite a bit of that intimidation factor and allow the reader to go right where they wish in one click (well, two actually):

Pericle's Preambles (Site Information and Administration)
Mount Olympus (Challenges of God-like Proportions)
Poseidon's Poetry (Poetry forums here)
Pompeii's Prose (Prose forums here)
Atum's Annex (Miscellany)
Mosaic Marketplace (Store and ECards)
The Gilgamesh Gallery (Images to Muse Over)
Pendragon's Prudence (Restricted Posts)

Part of the re-do was to add the Site Map as well located in the box at top and also http://forums.mosaicmusings.net/cgi-bin/forums/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=24;t=1433;st=0;&#entry10661.


Regarding your other query, I hope I have answered in my reply to Fran? Please let me know.

Regards!
~Cleo  

Posted by: Cleo_Serapis Jan 23 05, 08:48

Dear James,

I greatly welcome the recent revision of poetry forums. I know there were concerns but the new forums have taken off very quickly and I have seen no post-change worries expressed.

I agree - and it appears I need to reward more Wizards today too! :pharoah2

I would welcome other simplification measures - for easier navigation and better clarification. The forum system was established before we knew how MM would work and has grown like Topsey since. An overall review of what would best suit current (and future) needs might be sensible now.

I do not follow you here? We do have categories and Site Map?

Overall: This is clearly the friendliest and most useful crit site I've been on. The postings also look excellent - with lots of flexibility and are very attractive and allow variations (like Fran's glow-title in her competition submission and many other examples).

I think we all owe Lori a big thank you for the vision, effort, finance and love which she has put into this site. I don't want to sound fawning but I really do think she deserves great praise and thanks.

James.

Thank you veru much James! I appreciate the feedback!

~Cleo

Hello James!  

QUOTE

Maybe we could make use of a "less safe" member's only forum. I only mean less safe in terms of language and concepts allowed. Nastiness or rudeness from critters (should there be any) should not be allowed - maintaining what people rightly regard as MM's friendly nature.

We do have the forum for this very comment - it is called Shambhalan Sanctuary (Members Only). Keep in mind that our TOU and COC still must be adhered to in that forum too.  

QUOTE

It does rather pain me that Fran feels she has to take some writing elsewhere because of words or topic (I am in the same situation sometimes). I think that a members' only crit forum with a warning attached would enable only those members who wished to post / visit / crit there but it would, perhaps, be a more "adult" approach. We do have forums which border on this but they would need to be promoted as full crit forums for more violent / sexual / adult / dark works. I remember that Alan posted a work with Fxxx in and the system put sharp marks there instead ####. I'm not sure that a special forum would overcome that, as I think it is an overall software control (?) but in we could get round that - especially in such a mature forum.

Since MM is a site for all ages and cultures, we (the staff) have jointly made the decision that as hard it may seem at times, we must enforce our posting standard. We cannot be wishy-washy and allow one for one and not allow the same for another. In cases of wicca or erotica for example, there are other sites that welcome these topics and although we would not our members to feel the need to post elsewhere, we stand firm on our standard (we have to). It is not a reflection of the writer, and we hope they do not take it as such - it is just something to be said to uphold the standards (and limitations) that Mosaic Musings has placed upon itself. We do have a forum as mentioned above.

Regarding the editing of the board, there is a place where I have added words that will be changed to pound symbols. Mostly they are vulgar words and ones I would hope would NOT be allowed in serious poetry or prose for analysis, so yes, in way, it is software control. It would still happen in the adult forum too... it based on the entire board, not forum specific.

Posted by: Toumai Jan 24 05, 14:45

Thank you, Cleo, for such a detailed explanation. I know that decisions along these lines must be difficult.

For myself, I am sure that there would be times when I would feel that a dark poem but with a humane message would be allowed to stand for crit when a poem with a sick basis would be removed. But that is because I am a politically-motivated writer.

I do not envy you the task.

Many thanks for the Mosaic: without you it would not exist as the warm, generous, nurturing place it is.

Fran

Posted by: Cleo_Serapis Jan 26 05, 06:19

Thanks Fran for you reply!

Cleo :)

Posted by: Cleo_Serapis Jan 26 05, 10:33

Hello all!  

It appears my last message regarding our critique forums may have been misinterpreted (and my tone a bit aggressive).

This was not my intent as MM is for you, our members and should be used by you as it best suits your individual needs, whether it be to hone your writing skills, friendships and interactions with one another. It's all good!  :pharoah2

With the recent changes in the poetry forums, I may have seemed a bit "authoritarian", but please know that my heart is in the right place, as I only seek a desire to see the community succeed. (Thanks to Cailean for his kind words too!)

I DO want to see you continue your chit chat as you do currently in the threads (it is most often very stimulating   ), only be aware of the forum in which you are posting. The Basillica is always available to take common ideas that may develop in result of these conversations to a higher level outside of the critique forum and thread. For debates, we also have Alexandria's Debate forum too.  

Now, to answer a question some of you have raised with regard to my recent suggestion box thread in the Cuneiform Chronicles, YES, we DO have a forum for more "PG-13 and higher" type works. It hasn't really been used, but I'm certainly open to offer it now to our members.

It is called Shambhalan Sanctuary (located in the Pendragon's Prudence category, our members only forum with a password requirement. Please PM me for this password if you'd like to begin posting there as well. I'd like to see this forum start to see posts now since some of our members have inquired if we in fact had such a forum. Now is the perfect time to begin using it...  

This forum is about topics (adult themes/alternative writings) not generally posted on our 'all ages' general forums for members who wish to interact on a more mature level. Our desire is to keep you, our member happy and posting right here at MM above all - that is my desire...    In this forum, we are moderating to maintain our COC (code of conduct) as we do with all other forums.

Best wishes to all and please DO offer your thoughts in the sugestion box thread.

Thanks in advance!  

Cleo  

Posted by: Toumai Jan 26 05, 11:12

Dearest Cleo,

Many thanks for all your efforts to keep us all happy - no easy task, I can imagine  

How many people (out of the 95 members) currently hold the password to the sanctuary?

A suggestion: would it be possible to change the forum board so that at the least the date of the most recent reply/post is shown - might spark interest (and save people having to go inside to find out if anything is actually new).

With love and appreciation for all your creativity here,  
Fran

Posted by: Jox Jan 26 05, 11:49

Hi Lori,

Thank you very much for your useful calefaction - much appreciated.

I think we are all are behind your efforts to ensure that posters in crit forums DO receive crits.

I'm delighted that you weren't speaking out AGAINST friendly inter-action but, rather, FOR proper crits. I couldn't agree more. (And I am sure I'm as guilty as anyone for failing at times). There have been occasions where I've been a little disappointed not to have been critted by some visitors to my work. Now, I post regularly and receive tremendously useful crit most of the time but sometimes individual responses can be disappointing. I'm perfectly content if someone says "Hi thanks for the read - enjoyed this" and very happy if someone takes issue with some of my points. I'm delighted if people offer alternative and better ways of saying something. And then I'll happily banter with them... but you're absolutely right. The starting point must be a response to the work somehow. I shall try harder to make sure I respond first and foremost before I launch into my inevitable other yatter.

Thanks for all the enormously hard and costly work you do for MM and we all know that it would not be the place which it is today without your careful and considerate captaincy. Sometimes a message like this sounds rather schmaltzy - but, if we all think carefully, it is not hard to see that MM would (if it existed at all) be a far poorer place without your constant involvement.

James.

Posted by: Nina Jan 26 05, 14:59

Hi Lori

I agree, the most important starting point of any post on a thread should be a crit of a poem or relevant comment such as I enjoyed the read.  Often a poem will spark of discussion, something which I find very enjoyable and would hate to lose, so I am glad that we are still able to post those.

I echo James' words of thanks.  Your hard work is greatly appreciated.  I would be lost without this wonderful board.

Nina

Posted by: Cleo_Serapis Jan 26 05, 18:47

Dearest Cleo,

Many thanks for all your efforts to keep us all happy - no easy task, I can imagine  

How many people (out of the 95 members) currently hold the password to the sanctuary?

A suggestion: would it be possible to change the forum board so that at the least the date of the most recent reply/post is shown - might spark interest (and save people having to go inside to find out if anything is actually new).

With love and appreciation for all your creativity here,  
Fran

Posted by: Cleo_Serapis Jan 26 05, 18:49

Thanks so much James and Nina.  :grinning:

I appreciate your feedback very much!  :sun:

Cheers.

Cleo  :cloud9:

Posted by: Toumai Jan 27 05, 13:44

Dear Cleo,  

Thank you! I had realised that the color of the stars must mean something, but I hadn't quite worked it out ...  

The sanctuary seems likely to be a useful place; certainly busy today.

With love,
Fran

Posted by: Jox Jan 29 05, 13:04

Hi Lori - sorry I hadn't seen your first reply to me, apologies.

Well, all the various recent changes do seem to be settling. I have heard it said that the poetry division (which I suggested) may be putting off freeformers from visiting RMR but I'm not absolutly convinced of that personally. However, if anyone does have any concerns about the poetry forums please give them another couple of weeks to settle then, if you're still concerned, post a few comments here. (I'm not trying to stop debate now - if anyone wishes to comment now, please do so - it's just I feel we ought to give the new system a fair chance).

Lori, you asked...

"I do not follow you here? We do have categories and Site Map? "

I wasn't saying that people couldn't get around (or if I was, my error). I was trying to say that the "front page" still acts as a barrier. Does ikonboard / php allow the hot-spotting of images (as does HTML). That is, to turn an image into the equiv. of hypertext? If it does then I would suggest a graphical front page. If not then I think we could still achieve that with special characters. But I'd quite like to see all the confusing words (small print) disappear from the openijng page and be replaced by simple, friendly clickable symbols - or text if that cannot be done. Something like a circle of icons - all clickable - to draw people in - especially newcomers and potential members.

That's me idea...

All the best and thanks for all the recent extra work as well as your on-going efforts. (I know it's easy for me to come up with ideas - harder for you to implement!)

James.

Posted by: Toumai Jan 30 05, 12:44

Hi Cleo,

When you look at the main page that shows all the layout, you see the most recent posting in that area of MM.

Would it be perhaps be useful to have some indication of the last SEVERAL or at least FEW postings? Perhaps so much explanation of each area is unecessary, and that would allow a little more space?

For example, last night, after a quiet spell there were three or four new topics started in the announcements/banter area.

As the site gets busier things are disappearing down the list more quickly and even looking at the New Posts it is possible to miss things.

best wishes,
Fran

Posted by: Cleo_Serapis Jan 30 05, 13:01

Hi James.

If I did something, it would need to be an HTML page, like an overlay onto the forum board - perhaps I could make a link near the top with some wording like: "For graphical layout, click here" or something.

I may not get to this one for a bit though as I am currently working on the Sep & Oct Menageries, and I still want to create the MMHC chapbook too for 2004.

I will work on some ideas though in the meantime.

I was also thinking of adding a 'table of contents' page with a few sample pages of works for each of our current chapbooks for sale in the store.    

Stay tuned!

Hi Fran!

I found a hack (Latest Posts last 1-7 days) yesterday on the swarf.net site that allows you to see the active topics in the last 1-7 days -> very useful for site admins who don't want to miss posts and members too.   It will look something like this: http://swarf.net/forums/cgi-bin/ikonboard.cgi?act=Latest

Can you view that link?

Stay tuned!

Cleo  

Posted by: Jox Jan 30 05, 13:09

Hi Lori et al.

I'm still searching the Net for examples. However, I'll see what I can do.

No reason the two should not run in parallel, no.

My idea is simply to create a circle with icons for each main section off.

Then each icon would lead to a second, similar circle.

The idea is to make a quick, clean interface.

I'm working on it too and have sent Lori a sketch about it.

See you all later.

James.

Posted by: Toumai Jan 30 05, 13:54

Thanks, Cleo.
Looks interesting. :pharoah2
Fran

Posted by: Cleo_Serapis Jan 30 05, 15:49

I've just finished adding a 'table of contents' page for each of our current chapbooks for sale in the store. I had to first create an html page for each one, and then tweak the store page to include the new code.

I think this may help better understand what works are included in each chapbook.

You can check them out at:
http://www.mosaicmusings.net/FORMgallery.htm

I've made a link next to each chapbook title.

Cheers!
~Cleo  :pharoah2

Posted by: Cleo_Serapis Feb 4 05, 17:55

Hi Fran!  :dance:

Imhotep added the hack (Latest Posts last 1-7 days) today to our forum board. Check it out - it's a new link right next to the 'New Posts' link...

Cool!  :cool:  :cool:  :grinning:

Posted by: Jox Feb 4 05, 19:05

Lori, please tell Peter thanks! This is a brilliant new addition. Far more flexible and useful.

I've tried to view the chapbook pages twice but they fail to load - may just be a slow link. Will try again tomorrow.

James.

Posted by: Cleo_Serapis Feb 5 05, 07:17

I will tell him (but I found it first, )!

Which chapbook pages are you referring to? The new Table of Contents links? I just tried it and they work fine?

Please advise...

Posted by: Jox Feb 5 05, 07:39

Hi Lori...

Yes I saw you found the programme modification - well done to you, too.

The link which failed to work is where you say:

"You can check them out at:
this link."

But now it is working - though takes a while to load (30secs just) may be the graphics or you may have a slow server (this one is external I think) or it may simply be the transatlantic Net is under heavy pressure - though MM main pages are ok... were slower yesterday, though when I tried. Maybe packets diverted via Japan.

So all hunky-dory. (means ok... but may be an American expression, like "ok", anyway).

emm... brain fade - need intravenous Coca-Cola. See you later.

James.

Posted by: jgdittier Feb 17 05, 09:43

Dear Cleo,
Forgive my sloth in navigating around your well designed web-site.

I suppose the aspect that I like most here is the world-wide membership. That offers the chance to understand the status of poetry around the world.

As to improvement, I assume you want efforts doable by you.
The one that stands out in my mind is knitting this diverse family closer together, especially in that we're from all-over and our individual interests in poetry style vary greatly.
I find that I enjoy reading others' poetry and comments when I feel I know them more as friends than as just names. Knowing their thoughts about poetry help me greatly in commenting on their work in a way likely to be helpful to them. (I believe there are only two reasons to comment/critique a work and they are to prove the work was read and to offer comments that the writer will likely find helpful.
Knowing the writer's style I believe is critical to commenting/critiquing
so as to encourage rather than discourage him. We're all aware that this hobby has a tremendous drop out rate and should speculate on why.
My suggestion then, is find a place for each of us, if willing, to write of ourselves personally and to define where we are on the learning curve and our writing style. That would greatly help me comment to others and would hopefully eliminate my having to respond to suggestions that are inimical to my writing style.

As to staff and ability to contact, all is fine. Lori, you run a tight ship, no Titanic here.

As to what might be done differently, I again return to critiquing/commenting. I don't see them as separate in intent. For those who want other's thoughts on how to mechanically improve their poetry, I call it critique. However, those who have adopted a style removed from the mainstream benefit less from critique but still would like to know their postings are being read, and not only by peepers who read and run. Posting in Plato's produces little satisfaction.
In my opinion, I've not yet after 4 years of searching found a site where critiquing is adequately separated from nit-picking. My view is to look for the most admirable features and emphasize them. I know that when someone finds something positive to say about something I wrote (and it's detailed enough for me to know he read it carefully) I'm more likely to pick up a pencil than when my style is pointed out as lacking modernism.

I hope this helps,
Cheers    jgd    Ron

Posted by: Cleo_Serapis Feb 17 05, 12:40

Hello Ron!  :rainbow:

Thanks for your thoughtful reply!

I see what you are asking regarding critiquing. Perhaps we could try to ask our members to post a tile in the new forum: Bard's Biographies? When I return from vacation, I'll pose this one to the staff and see if we can come up with a plan to assist in this endeavor?

I must run off at the moment - hoping you have a great day!