Shattered Illusions, Poem from a workshop, taken years ago, lead by the late August Wilson Options

[vessq]

Shattered Illusions


August Wilson said,
“I was young, in New York, and ambitious.
Someone took me to a bar once
frequented by the poet Dylan Thomas.
I took to stopping by each afternoon
to sip a beer and work on my latest poem.

My plan, it seemed, was working.
Imagining creative vibrations
emanating from the dingy walls,
I would have sworn my poems were
improving from a combination of
hard work and osmosis.

Until the crusty old bartender, who
had been there nearly forever
and knew the great man,
slapped a cardboard coaster
on the bar and said”,
'Get that god damned pencil outa here.
Dylan Thomas knew what to do in a bar.'

[mayo]

I have read this quite a few times now. I think that it is a strong piece of writing. It feels like I have read a version of it before, but I really like it all the the same. Is there anything that you think isn't working in this piece? I look forward to reading your work

mayo

[vessq]

Hi Mayo,

Thanks for reading. This is brand new. I was thinking about August Wilson and the playwright Charles Gordone for some reason the other day and remembered August telling the story.

As to the poems weakness, it is probably in the attempt to make a poem out of a quote. I will think about it. Maybe expand the whimsical notion August had of soaking up some of a great poets talent by hanging around the same bar.

If this seems familiar it may well be August told the story many times in many workshops and someone else attempted, as I have to make a poem from an anecdote.

The workshop was in about 1985 in Tucson, Arizona. Rolly Kent, resident poet at the Tucson public library, organized the event. August gave a reading of a new play in Tucson at the end of the workshop. I think the play was "Jitney".

I would be interested in your opinion what works and does not work in the poem .

Thanks again,

Vess

[Guest_ohsteve_*]

Vess, I think there may be a problem here. If this is a verbatim quote from Mr Wilson then this could be construed as both plagiarism and a violation of copyright. I am not entirely sure how that works. I will ask Lori to look and see. Maybe if you paraphrased his words or parodied them would be ok, but I must say that this reads more as a story than a poem IMO.
Steve

[Cleo_Serapis]

This is an original poem written by Vess, no infringing content within. Thx Vess for your PM!

[mayo]

Hi, vess,

I hope that I didn't sound like I thought this was someone's other word besides your own. I didn't, but I know this story. I have yet to familiarize myself with the style/voice in which you write, so my comments will be less specific than if I had.

Again, I find this a strong write. The one and only place that I found to stumble me was the last stanza. It comes across as a punch line that is told slightly off. In fact, the way that I tell jokes and that is why I don't tell them. The last two lines in particular do not flow easily. Perhaps because it comes so abruptly. In the second stanza you have the character happily sitting down to gather inspiration, then boom the last stanza removes it. Yes, shattered illusions, but I would have liked to see the illusions built a bit before the shattering. I can see an additional stanza between the two were the ego is built a bit more, the shattering would be more effective.

I think the trouble with retelling a story is that often the first telling was the finest, just the right amount of words, etc. Now I come from Norwegians and we retell and retell. I think that what makes the additional tellings worth hearing is the added extra that wasn't in there to start with. A surprise. A fellow poet told a version of this story, but had Billy Collins sidle up to the bar and order a drink. A poem allows us vast leeway to get us to the heart of the matter without having to provide an exact copy.

I hope these ideas simply make you stop and consider. On a whole I find this strong writing, but I stumbled at the end. I am curious as to how you felt when finishing it up. Did that part seem to be original to you or were you trying to tell it straight, like the story told to you?

mayo

[vessq]

Hi Steve and Mayo,

This poem came from a conversation with August Wilson at dinner after a workshop.

It is never considered plagarism or a violation of copyright to offer a story in quotes.

For example the Hank Real Bird would be off limits. as would most writing.

The entire purpose is accuracy in passing on the story and crediting properly.

Vess

[mayo]

I for one do not consider it plagarism in any way. If you are just passing a happening that occur to you and not writing poetry then I really have nothing to add. Just to let you know this is a story that is passed on alot, perhaps August Wilson also was passing a story to you. Nothing wrong with that either.

I certainly didn't mean to offend. My previous post was in response to what I liked and didn't like in the piece. I apologize if you felt challenged.

[vessq]

Hi Mayo,

I am sure this story got around simply because it is such a neat idea of a young poet trying to soak up a little of a great poets skill in such a manner.

Plagarism is theft as is copyright infringement. Being accused of theft in a public forum does not set well with me.

I told a stringer for the LA times in an interview once that I am not a creative writer but a creative reporter. I seldom, if ever, make something up. As, the late Gail Gardner, a famous cowboy poet and long time postmaster of Prescott, Arizona once said, "All my poems and stories are based on a slim foundation of fact."

Now, that is a direct quote from Gail's writing. According to Steve that is plagarism and a copyright violation. If Steve's accusation is MM policy, then I need to withdraw from the workshop because most of my writing would violate the law.

I was fortunate enough to spend most of my childhood with some of the old time cowboys. Many of them were great story tellers of original stories and could recite long classic poems from memory.

I am a crank about crediting the soursce whenever I use one of the stories I heard as a child. That makes some of the structure somewhat awkward. I have entire short stories in quotes because I insist on crediting the soursce.

That is the problem with the little poem but it is the only way I will do it.

You had heard the story. But for those who have not, August Wilson's story lives agian.

"The west is dead my friend
But writer's hold the seed,
And it will live again for those who read."

C. M Russell

Thanks Mayo,

Vess

[mayo]

Again, I never accused you of plagarism! Never.

In addition, I too would find it reason to want to leave a site. Being accused of stealing is outright wrong without something to back it up.

[vessq]

Hi Mayo,

I never thought you were accusing me. I appreciate your comments and questions about what I was attempting, however awkwardly.

The accusation was from Steve along with his opinion that it is not a poem but a story. He is right about the second part. I write a lot of poems with a story line.

I am not much for writing poems about how the sun dappled through the trees and freckled the fragrant mat of pine needles as I trod upon their softness while wandering aimlessly among the benevolent pines.

I can appreciate writers who create word pictures of such events. I even have a friend who writes poems she takes from famous paintings.

Thanks again for your comments and questions. I will think about it all.

Vess

[Cleo_Serapis]

There seems to be a HUGE misunderstanding going on here.

There is no plagiarism nor is there any copyright infringment as I stated earlier on in this thread. I can't be any clearer.

The question was put out there simply because of the notation put forth about quoting August Wilson. We understand that this is an original paraphrasing by Vess and as such, this thread was moved back into the public forum for further feedback. This is how things are done here at MM for the protection of both the writer and the site, when and IF that sort of question arises.

Vess, I enjoyed your PM and will be back to see if I can offer any input to this one over the weekend. Have you ever written of your experiences at the National Cowboy Poetry Gatherings? I find it fascinating.

~Cleo

[mayo]

Hi Mayo,



I am not much for writing poems about how the sun dappled through the trees and freckled the fragrant mat of pine needles as I trod upon their softness while wandering aimlessly among the benevolent pines.


Vess

Thank God!!!!

[vessq]

Hi all,

Since I caused all this, let me see if I can put it to bed once and for all.

I will admit to being rankled by the notion that I might be guilty of plagiarism or copyright infringement even though I had stated clearly where the quote came from and how I came by the story.

I did a bit of research and discovered several things I did not know. Mostly from a little book called "Writing Brave and Free" by Ted Kooser and Steve Cox.

What I did here is not even remotely Plagiarism or copyright infringement. I did not steal August Wilson's words and attempt to pass them off as my own.

Here is where Steve's point may be well taken, however much it annoyed me.

Quotes are governed by a vague set of laws and customs mostly dependent on cloudy language and subjective judgment. One of my poems, "Sold Out," was included in the PBS television series "The United States of Poetry." Books and articles on the state of poetry in America today have quoted from or used the poem in it's entirety. Some wrote for permission, most did not.

One could call my use of the story August Wilson told at a dinner celebrating the end of a week long workshop unfair use another might disagree. A hundred lawyers could line up on one side of the argument and a hundred on the other. Let's not go there.

I tell stories in poems and in short story form. Most of those stories involve quoting long dead voices and even a few living ones.

I will keep doing it until I am sued penniless or cast into a dungeon. The memories yield stories that are too much fun to give up easily.

Vess

[mayo]

Vess,

I am familiar with that poem, "Sold Out". The final two stanzas is such a perfect description.

"I follow,
Absently mimicking his walk,
And stand a post away.
We don't speak of causes or reasons,

Don't speak at all;
We just stand there
Leaning on the weathered poles,
While shadows consume the pasture."

I read that poem at least once a year, often times more. I didn't realize we had a celebrity in the house. I have always wondered if that is a picture of you in the book?

mayo