Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

IPB
5 Pages V   1 2 3 > » 

vessq
Posted on: Jul 23 09, 12:21


Babylonian
*

Group: Platinum Member
Posts: 126
Joined: 29-December 08
From: Alamosa, Colorado USA
Member No.: 742


Hi Marcia,

Thanks for the kind words. The world I grew up in (born 1940) was simpler and in many ways more fun. We worked harder with less return. I still think it was the best possible time to be born in America.

The great wars were over. My dad and uncles survived and returned to work on ranches all over the west. I was too young for Korea and married with children during Vietnam.

I could and did provide a good life for my family drawing small wages. Married Cowboys when I started were paid $185 per month, a house, half a beef per year, and a fresh milk cow.

Believe it or not, we lived well. Preferred Blue Cross was $35.00 per month. I do not envy my grandchildren.

Vess
  Forum: ARCHIVES -> Poetry for Crit Prior to 2011 · Post Preview: #116592 · Replies: 13 · Views: 4,374

vessq
Posted on: Jul 12 09, 11:30


Babylonian
*

Group: Platinum Member
Posts: 126
Joined: 29-December 08
From: Alamosa, Colorado USA
Member No.: 742


Good Morning Mr Pray,

I know you are able to take what suits you and ignore the rest. I appreciate every critique. There are those, of course, that I feel totally miss the point. Each is of value because even someone missing the point of a poem is instructive.

Vess
  Forum: ARCHIVES -> Poetry for Crit Prior to 2011 · Post Preview: #116368 · Replies: 13 · Views: 5,349

vessq
Posted on: Jul 6 09, 18:21


Babylonian
*

Group: Platinum Member
Posts: 126
Joined: 29-December 08
From: Alamosa, Colorado USA
Member No.: 742


Hi Steve,

This poem rings true because it happens all too often.

I think fewer words would have more impact.

For example.

On the corner of Fifty Seven
and Second Avenue
is a blue house
with red and yellow trim.

There is a chimney
where white smoke
billows into cold winter air
layering soot, fallow,
upon deep snow.

The old man who lived there
wore plaid shirts and blue jeans.
Children, with pink and rosy cheeks,
played and witnessed him changing.

They thought it fun and laughed
at him because he was old, slow,
and only hollered at them
for running across his lawn.

I think the first verses should describe an ordinary house in an ordinary neighborhood. Once we are proceeding safely down this familiar track, the last verses should create a mental train wreck.

Last Wednesday,he shot
red-haired Billy Prescott's
head off with a shotgun.

White snow stained red,
prison for an old man,
and children, catatonic,
kept in their beds.

I do not much like doing this extensive a re-write of another poet's poem. I do not mind when others do this with mine but am uncomfortable doing it with your words. This poem is worth the risk of giving offense. The poem, in my opinion, requires stark language and as few words as possible.

I trust you will ignore any suggestion that does not suit you.

Vess


  Forum: ARCHIVES -> Poetry for Crit Prior to 2011 · Post Preview: #116263 · Replies: 13 · Views: 5,349

vessq
Posted on: Jun 1 09, 11:28


Babylonian
*

Group: Platinum Member
Posts: 126
Joined: 29-December 08
From: Alamosa, Colorado USA
Member No.: 742


Hi Steve,

Thanks for the kind words. I just re-read the poem an d noticed a typo. Tec of Teec Nos Pos is incorrect.

Vess
  Forum: ARCHIVES -> Poetry for Crit Prior to 2011 · Post Preview: #115604 · Replies: 6 · Views: 2,344

vessq
Posted on: May 28 09, 19:09


Babylonian
*

Group: Platinum Member
Posts: 126
Joined: 29-December 08
From: Alamosa, Colorado USA
Member No.: 742


Hi Sylvia,

This poem has been fun with all the suggestions. I liked the original and agree your revisions read better. I do not need to understand every reference to enjoy the poem. I do like to hear the explanations because it adds to my knowledge.

You are right about the stallions. If they are not stamping, they are pacing the pen. A gelding will stand around and eat himself fat and soft if he is not ridden enough to stay in shape. A stallion will keep himself in good condition with all the pacing and stamping. They are a pain in the neck just like bulls in a cowherd and bucks in a band of sheep.

I can almost hear a large number of women saying "And men are no exception."

Vess
  Forum: ARCHIVES -> Poetry for Crit Prior to 2011 · Post Preview: #115520 · Replies: 24 · Views: 7,125

vessq
Posted on: May 27 09, 22:29


Babylonian
*

Group: Platinum Member
Posts: 126
Joined: 29-December 08
From: Alamosa, Colorado USA
Member No.: 742


Hi Ace, Mayo, and Mark,

Thank you for the kind words.

I have crossed the Navajo Nation many times over the last Thirty years. Hauling our barley crops to Phoenix and working in Arizona for the last few years and commuting home to Southern Colorado.

There is always something interesting to see where most see only barren land.

Vess
  Forum: ARCHIVES -> Poetry for Crit Prior to 2011 · Post Preview: #115484 · Replies: 6 · Views: 2,344

vessq
Posted on: May 25 09, 17:59


Babylonian
*

Group: Platinum Member
Posts: 126
Joined: 29-December 08
From: Alamosa, Colorado USA
Member No.: 742


Good afternoon Ross,

I assume this is meant for sharing and not posted seeking criticism of the poem.

My dad and all my uncles except one came in from the ranches and enlisted together. The one was rejected because the family was involved in agriculture. He was the oldest and supposedly they did not want to take all the sons off the farms and ranches.

The last, Wayne, died in his sleep last week.

Those of us who were little on December 7, 1941 ( I was I year and a few days old) learned what we know from those academics and historians you speak of and from a novels and movies.

My Dad, six uncles and four cousins all returned and said little. Our family lost no one.

Wayne served on an LST. My mother got him make a cassette tape of his life as he remembered it.

Here is how he covered the war, "Normandy, D-day + 2 ; nothing much happened. Towed to North Africa for repairs."

I never asked why, if nothing much happened, repairs were needed and he never said.

Thanks for the poem.

Vess
  Forum: ARCHIVES -> Poetry for Crit Prior to 2011 · Post Preview: #115393 · Replies: 7 · Views: 2,534

vessq
Posted on: May 25 09, 13:22


Babylonian
*

Group: Platinum Member
Posts: 126
Joined: 29-December 08
From: Alamosa, Colorado USA
Member No.: 742


Rain In May


It rains at Flagstaff,
at Cameron, Tuba City, Tonalea, at Cow Springs,
and Kayenta, at Dennehotso, Mexican Water,
Red Mesa, and Tec Nos Pos.

It falls slowly but persistently until
each dry wash lives with quick brown water.
Every low place is a shimmering miniature lake.
Seeds that have waited in dry soil for years
begin to swell and prepare to sprout.

Scrawny lambs will soon fatten and grow heavy wool.
Weak cows can grow strong and raise stocky calves.
Tired horses will slick off and buck with their riders.

What is going on here? It is May.
Rain comes to this place in July or August,
in soil sealing fury and usually with hail,
too late to work spring's magic on the land.

I stop for coffee. The little cafe
is generally Navajo silent. Today it hums
with quiet conversation.

Several, generally stoic, old men smile and nod.
I think they doubt that this white guy,
just passing through, could possibly know
what all this soaking rain in May really means.
  Forum: ARCHIVES -> Poetry for Crit Prior to 2011 · Post Preview: #115390 · Replies: 6 · Views: 2,344

vessq
Posted on: May 25 09, 13:09


Babylonian
*

Group: Platinum Member
Posts: 126
Joined: 29-December 08
From: Alamosa, Colorado USA
Member No.: 742


Hi Leo,

You will find the critics of your short stories helpful on cc. It is well designed to del with short stories and there are good critics there.

Vess
  Forum: Short Stories & Chapters for Critique ->... · Post Preview: #115389 · Replies: 7 · Views: 6,256

vessq
Posted on: May 25 09, 12:59


Babylonian
*

Group: Platinum Member
Posts: 126
Joined: 29-December 08
From: Alamosa, Colorado USA
Member No.: 742


Hi Mayo,

You do manage to stir things up. I suspect watching the pot boil furiously amuses you.

You are also a good writer. I read the poem several times and all the comments. I have little to add except to agree that the word cunt is an ugly word. This poem, however, is about a ugly subjects on several levels.

When healers become mechanics and begin to view their patients as problems to solve instead of people, is only one of the levels.

Society causing the size of a woman's breasts or the shape of her ass to become a self esteem issue is another.

Causing our own health problems by foolish or careless behavior and being honest enough to admit it, is another level.

Good work, I admire the poem and enjoyed the comments it drew.

Vess
  Forum: ARCHIVES -> Poetry for Crit Prior to 2011 · Post Preview: #115388 · Replies: 13 · Views: 4,180

vessq
Posted on: May 25 09, 12:38


Babylonian
*

Group: Platinum Member
Posts: 126
Joined: 29-December 08
From: Alamosa, Colorado USA
Member No.: 742


Hi Lori,

I read both versions and all the comments. I have little to add except to say this is well done and the second version, in my opinion, works best.

Steve's suggestions deserve consideration. I would beware, though, of taking criticisms too seriously. Each of us will respond based on our own history and experience but no history is more valid than any other.

When a critic wastes time telling a writer what they prefer in terms of form or style, the critic is talking about themselves and not about helping a writer accomplish what is being attempted.

One need not be a Dylan scholar to enjoy your poem.

The message a reader gets from a poem will not always be what the writer intended.

I have seen poems made weaker by workshops when a writer attempts to please every voice. We should let our poems bounce among readers without expecting any or all to catch the intended message or even appreciate the effort.

Good work, I enjoyed both the poem and the comments it drew.

Vess
  Forum: ARCHIVES -> Poetry for Crit Prior to 2011 · Post Preview: #115387 · Replies: 17 · Views: 6,903

vessq
Posted on: May 25 09, 12:09


Babylonian
*

Group: Platinum Member
Posts: 126
Joined: 29-December 08
From: Alamosa, Colorado USA
Member No.: 742


Hi Steve,

You are right about the evils of gambling. Lewis had an even worse problem. He raised and trained the horses others bet on.

One of these days I will write the story of his horse "The Ox". The Ox ran second in races all over the country and never ran first. He would run second to horses he could easily out run, and had in other races.

My Grandfather knew why but never told his brother, Lewis. If I can figure out how to shorten the explanation of horse psychology enough to fit in a poem, I will tell you why The Ox could cause Lewis To beat his head on a post and Aunt Ruth to say, "I knew it, I just knew it."

Vess
  Forum: ARCHIVES -> Poetry for Crit Prior to 2011 · Post Preview: #115386 · Replies: 5 · Views: 2,165

vessq
Posted on: May 23 09, 18:30


Babylonian
*

Group: Platinum Member
Posts: 126
Joined: 29-December 08
From: Alamosa, Colorado USA
Member No.: 742


Race Horses And Cantaloupe

We listened by Radio in 1950
as Middleground won The Derby.

"Don't talk to me of Triple Crowns."
Aunt Ruth said, "Your Uncle Lewis
made millions raising cantaloupe
and lost most of it racing horses."
  Forum: ARCHIVES -> Poetry for Crit Prior to 2011 · Post Preview: #115339 · Replies: 5 · Views: 2,165

vessq
Posted on: May 23 09, 17:58


Babylonian
*

Group: Platinum Member
Posts: 126
Joined: 29-December 08
From: Alamosa, Colorado USA
Member No.: 742


Hi all,

Since I caused all this, let me see if I can put it to bed once and for all.

I will admit to being rankled by the notion that I might be guilty of plagiarism or copyright infringement even though I had stated clearly where the quote came from and how I came by the story.

I did a bit of research and discovered several things I did not know. Mostly from a little book called "Writing Brave and Free" by Ted Kooser and Steve Cox.

What I did here is not even remotely Plagiarism or copyright infringement. I did not steal August Wilson's words and attempt to pass them off as my own.

Here is where Steve's point may be well taken, however much it annoyed me.

Quotes are governed by a vague set of laws and customs mostly dependent on cloudy language and subjective judgment. One of my poems, "Sold Out," was included in the PBS television series "The United States of Poetry." Books and articles on the state of poetry in America today have quoted from or used the poem in it's entirety. Some wrote for permission, most did not.

One could call my use of the story August Wilson told at a dinner celebrating the end of a week long workshop unfair use another might disagree. A hundred lawyers could line up on one side of the argument and a hundred on the other. Let's not go there.

I tell stories in poems and in short story form. Most of those stories involve quoting long dead voices and even a few living ones.

I will keep doing it until I am sued penniless or cast into a dungeon. The memories yield stories that are too much fun to give up easily.

Vess

  Forum: ARCHIVES -> Poetry for Crit Prior to 2011 · Post Preview: #115337 · Replies: 14 · Views: 4,066

vessq
Posted on: May 22 09, 21:16


Babylonian
*

Group: Platinum Member
Posts: 126
Joined: 29-December 08
From: Alamosa, Colorado USA
Member No.: 742


Hi Mayo,

I never thought you were accusing me. I appreciate your comments and questions about what I was attempting, however awkwardly.

The accusation was from Steve along with his opinion that it is not a poem but a story. He is right about the second part. I write a lot of poems with a story line.

I am not much for writing poems about how the sun dappled through the trees and freckled the fragrant mat of pine needles as I trod upon their softness while wandering aimlessly among the benevolent pines.

I can appreciate writers who create word pictures of such events. I even have a friend who writes poems she takes from famous paintings.

Thanks again for your comments and questions. I will think about it all.

Vess
  Forum: ARCHIVES -> Poetry for Crit Prior to 2011 · Post Preview: #115317 · Replies: 14 · Views: 4,066

vessq
Posted on: May 22 09, 14:11


Babylonian
*

Group: Platinum Member
Posts: 126
Joined: 29-December 08
From: Alamosa, Colorado USA
Member No.: 742


Hi Mayo,

I am sure this story got around simply because it is such a neat idea of a young poet trying to soak up a little of a great poets skill in such a manner.

Plagarism is theft as is copyright infringement. Being accused of theft in a public forum does not set well with me.

I told a stringer for the LA times in an interview once that I am not a creative writer but a creative reporter. I seldom, if ever, make something up. As, the late Gail Gardner, a famous cowboy poet and long time postmaster of Prescott, Arizona once said, "All my poems and stories are based on a slim foundation of fact."

Now, that is a direct quote from Gail's writing. According to Steve that is plagarism and a copyright violation. If Steve's accusation is MM policy, then I need to withdraw from the workshop because most of my writing would violate the law.

I was fortunate enough to spend most of my childhood with some of the old time cowboys. Many of them were great story tellers of original stories and could recite long classic poems from memory.

I am a crank about crediting the soursce whenever I use one of the stories I heard as a child. That makes some of the structure somewhat awkward. I have entire short stories in quotes because I insist on crediting the soursce.

That is the problem with the little poem but it is the only way I will do it.

You had heard the story. But for those who have not, August Wilson's story lives agian.

"The west is dead my friend
But writer's hold the seed,
And it will live again for those who read."

C. M Russell

Thanks Mayo,

Vess

  Forum: ARCHIVES -> Poetry for Crit Prior to 2011 · Post Preview: #115306 · Replies: 14 · Views: 4,066

vessq
Posted on: May 20 09, 15:59


Babylonian
*

Group: Platinum Member
Posts: 126
Joined: 29-December 08
From: Alamosa, Colorado USA
Member No.: 742


Hi Steve and Mayo,

This poem came from a conversation with August Wilson at dinner after a workshop.

It is never considered plagarism or a violation of copyright to offer a story in quotes.

For example the Hank Real Bird would be off limits. as would most writing.

The entire purpose is accuracy in passing on the story and crediting properly.

Vess
  Forum: ARCHIVES -> Poetry for Crit Prior to 2011 · Post Preview: #115268 · Replies: 14 · Views: 4,066

vessq
Posted on: May 19 09, 11:30


Babylonian
*

Group: Platinum Member
Posts: 126
Joined: 29-December 08
From: Alamosa, Colorado USA
Member No.: 742


Hi Mayo,

Thanks for reading. This is brand new. I was thinking about August Wilson and the playwright Charles Gordone for some reason the other day and remembered August telling the story.

As to the poems weakness, it is probably in the attempt to make a poem out of a quote. I will think about it. Maybe expand the whimsical notion August had of soaking up some of a great poets talent by hanging around the same bar.

If this seems familiar it may well be August told the story many times in many workshops and someone else attempted, as I have to make a poem from an anecdote.

The workshop was in about 1985 in Tucson, Arizona. Rolly Kent, resident poet at the Tucson public library, organized the event. August gave a reading of a new play in Tucson at the end of the workshop. I think the play was "Jitney".

I would be interested in your opinion what works and does not work in the poem .

Thanks again,

Vess
  Forum: ARCHIVES -> Poetry for Crit Prior to 2011 · Post Preview: #115219 · Replies: 14 · Views: 4,066

vessq
Posted on: May 17 09, 14:55


Babylonian
*

Group: Platinum Member
Posts: 126
Joined: 29-December 08
From: Alamosa, Colorado USA
Member No.: 742


Hi Leo,

This is good work. I will come back and go over it more carefully when I have time.

Your descriptive work is wonderful. I have much to learn about that. Critics always want more description and background in my stories. I am afraid I fail to provide the wonderful description you are so good at. Perhaps my style is so different it would be ludicrous to attempt to write like you do. I am tempted to try anyway.

I would suggest moving this story to either Critique Circle or Scribophile. MM is great for poems but the short stories seem to draw few critiques.

I have stopped posting stories on MM for that reason but it is the best site for poems.

Google Critiique Circle or Scribophile and you will find them.

Vess
  Forum: Short Stories & Chapters for Critique ->... · Post Preview: #115189 · Replies: 7 · Views: 6,256

vessq
Posted on: May 17 09, 14:37


Babylonian
*

Group: Platinum Member
Posts: 126
Joined: 29-December 08
From: Alamosa, Colorado USA
Member No.: 742


Shattered Illusions


August Wilson said,
“I was young, in New York, and ambitious.
Someone took me to a bar once
frequented by the poet Dylan Thomas.
I took to stopping by each afternoon
to sip a beer and work on my latest poem.

My plan, it seemed, was working.
Imagining creative vibrations
emanating from the dingy walls,
I would have sworn my poems were
improving from a combination of
hard work and osmosis.

Until the crusty old bartender, who
had been there nearly forever
and knew the great man,
slapped a cardboard coaster
on the bar and said”,
'Get that god damned pencil outa here.
Dylan Thomas knew what to do in a bar.'
  Forum: ARCHIVES -> Poetry for Crit Prior to 2011 · Post Preview: #115188 · Replies: 14 · Views: 4,066

vessq
Posted on: May 15 09, 08:51


Babylonian
*

Group: Platinum Member
Posts: 126
Joined: 29-December 08
From: Alamosa, Colorado USA
Member No.: 742


Hi Antonio,

This is good. Mark did an excellent critique as did Steve. The only comment I have is to point out that use of qualifiers in a poem simply clutters it up.

For example, eyes so weary (as Marc pointed out) works better without the (so). I would suggest editing your poem to get rid of any word that does not advance the work.

I do not necessarily agree with Steve's objection over punctuation and the use of capitals to start each line. I like using line breaks for punctuation and eliminating punctuation that is not needed to direct a reader when possible. I think unnecessary punctuation, like unnecessary words, simply clutters up a poem.

Steve has helped me with his comments because I often go too far eliminating words and punctuation. It is a personal preference. A writer should always follow their own instinct and ignore any criticism that conflicts with that instinct.

I have attended and lead poetry workshops (without portfolio, as I am not educated as a scholar or a teacher) for over thirty years and still need good critics like Marc and Steve because I am often blind to flaws in my own work until they point them out.

Good work. Keep writing, I will read and comment when I think it will help.

Vess
  Forum: ARCHIVES -> Poetry for Crit Prior to 2011 · Post Preview: #115144 · Replies: 5 · Views: 3,191

vessq
Posted on: May 13 09, 20:40


Babylonian
*

Group: Platinum Member
Posts: 126
Joined: 29-December 08
From: Alamosa, Colorado USA
Member No.: 742


Hi Melody,

Sorry to read the bad news. I will be thinking about you and looking forward to your return.

Vess
  Forum: Member Announcements -> Basilica · Post Preview: #115097 · Replies: 8 · Views: 4,752

vessq
Posted on: May 12 09, 20:51


Babylonian
*

Group: Platinum Member
Posts: 126
Joined: 29-December 08
From: Alamosa, Colorado USA
Member No.: 742


Hi Jeanne,

Welcome.

I have only technical suggestions and will make them if you promise to ignore anything that does not suit you. Always follow your own instincts and never hesitate to reject mine.

Drop (the) in front of louder. Drop (can) in front of transcend. Trade and for to in front of become lucid. drop (to) in front of metamorphasize.

Good work. Keep sending poems. I will read them and comment when I think it will help.

Vess
  Forum: ARCHIVES -> Poetry for Crit Prior to 2011 · Post Preview: #115086 · Replies: 5 · Views: 2,595

vessq
Posted on: May 12 09, 20:28


Babylonian
*

Group: Platinum Member
Posts: 126
Joined: 29-December 08
From: Alamosa, Colorado USA
Member No.: 742


Hi Mark,

This is a delight. I am not going to attempt a critique. My poems are more simply constructed so I question my competence here.

I am sure others will be of more help. I will serve as cheerleader. More please.

I caught the reference to a small boys plea. I think it was to Shoeless Joe Jackson in response to a corruption charge.

Vess

  Forum: ARCHIVES -> Poetry for Crit Prior to 2011 · Post Preview: #115085 · Replies: 10 · Views: 4,061

vessq
Posted on: May 12 09, 20:14


Babylonian
*

Group: Platinum Member
Posts: 126
Joined: 29-December 08
From: Alamosa, Colorado USA
Member No.: 742


Hi Sylvia,

I can enjoy this poem without a complete understanding. I caught the moorings of childhood memories.

I would suggest only technical changes. I would drop (from our orchard) in the first verse.

I would drop (some) from the second verse.

I would leave the rest of the poem alone. To attempt too much clarification might well shred the gentle curtain that hangs over childhood memories.

Nice. I like this.

Vess
  Forum: ARCHIVES -> Poetry for Crit Prior to 2011 · Post Preview: #115084 · Replies: 24 · Views: 7,125

5 Pages V   1 2 3 > » 

New Posts  New Replies
No New Posts  No New Replies
Hot topic  Hot Topic (New)
No new  Hot Topic (No New)
Poll  Poll (New)
No new votes  Poll (No New)
Closed  Locked Topic
Moved  Moved Topic
 

RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: 9th July 2020 - 22:16




Read our FLYERS - click below



Reference links provided to aid in fine-tuning your writings. ENJOY!

more Quotes
more Art Quotes
Dictionary.com ~ Thesaurus.com

Search:
for
Type in a word below to find its rhymes, synonyms, and more:

Word: