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Posted by: 4rum Apr 25 10, 04:00

New poetry form ???
Pentesam~Any number of five line stanzas in iambic pentameter, rhyme pattern ababb.
Example: (First one ever).

Posted by: Cleo_Serapis Apr 27 10, 05:32

Sam,

What an appealing form! I've not heard of this one and will be looking for more!

I'll have to reseach ye ole' englsh - is wont the right word here: Where not a prying eye is wont to see

Damn - thos skinned knees sure are smarts!

Thanks so much for sharing - I'll give this a go soon!
~Cleo

Posted by: 4rum Apr 27 10, 14:54

Hi Lori;

This is one reason I dumped this in Karnak ... I'm not sure on the 'wont'. I believe that I have heard and read it used in this context (archaic), but I 'wont' put any money on it.

Form? I DID research and I can't find this particular one. I made it up, then went looking for it. It may be MINE! I do have a reason. Usually sonnets are 14 lines. Most of my poems run a bit long. I found Rhyme Royale, but the seven line stanzas have just never felt natural to me with the rhyme pattern used in them.

The five liners are much easier and by my own standard I can make the poem as long as I want. If the form turns out to be original, the name can certainly be better.

Thanks for reading.

Sam

Posted by: 4rum Apr 29 10, 03:36

Links to some discussion and definitions of wont. The word, without the apostorphe is correct, my usage may be questionable however.

http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=787049

http://www.wordreference.com/definition/wont

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/wont

Posted by: Sekhmet Jun 26 10, 08:33

Hello Sam - I found this in the Oxford English Dictionary - I remember this word being in use in English poetry when I was a child -
" ... was ever wont to wander."
wont

/wont/

• adjective archaic or literary accustomed.

• noun (one’s wont) formal or humorous one’s customary behaviour.

• verb (3rd sing. present wonts or wont; past and past part. wont or wonted) archaic make or become accustomed.

— ORIGIN Old English.

Posted by: 4rum Jun 29 10, 01:00

M'k ... by these accounts I'm going to give 'wont' a nod and let it stay. Much like you said, sometimes I'll read a word or passage and just by its novel placement, it will stick in my head and I'll pull it out at some point in time. I do NOT research every idiom that pops up while writing. I probably should.

Thanks so much for the solid, printed reference you've given.

sam

Posted by: Larry Jun 30 10, 15:15

Hi Sam,

Very droll but to the point...

Just thought I'd let you know, this looks like a new variety of the "Cinquain" - It is a five line stanza, varied in rhyme and line length, usually with the rhyme scheme ababb.

Here is an example from Shelly's "To a Skylark"

Teach me half the gladness -A-
That thy brain must know, -B-
From my lips would flow -A-
Such harmonious madness -B-
The world should listen then, as I am listening now. -B-


Hope I didn't cast a pall on the "New Poetry Form" parade.

Thanks for the grin from the subject matter you chose. Practice does make perfect and in this case, one usually practices in the dark.

Larry

Posted by: 4rum Jul 2 10, 12:36

Hi Larry,

Thanks for views. Yeah, I looked at 'most every form I could find. Read a good deal about cinquain's. I've done a couple of more serious pieces in the form here though. It seems more than 'just' a cinquain. Guess it depends largely on the point of view. No matter, I like this form pretty good and it has advantages (for me) over the English Sonnet or the Rime Royale.

Guess I could have went with 'five and dime' ... five lines, 10 syllables ... (iambic pentameter)

Posted by: AMETHYST Aug 30 10, 01:31

Hiya Sam,

Actually this is nothing like a http://forums.mosaicmusings.net/index.php?showtopic=44. I also have not heard of a form that is exactly like it, some near misses with variations but none with the exact requirements.

I am going to give your PenteSam a try! I also think your naming is perfect - PENTE (5 line) Sam (the inventor) ... :)

Best Wishes, Liz

Posted by: Larry Sep 16 10, 13:49

Hello Liz,

Been busy and just saw your retort pertaining to Sam's "Pentasam" form. As I stated in my reply to Sam, this seems to be a new variety of the Cinquain. Other than the pentameter format, it possesses the same rhyme scheme "ababb" and the five lines in the poem. I did not say it wasn't a new form, but please don't say it is nothing like a Cinquain.

Much like Lori's "Swap Quatrain", I utilized her new form and then I embellished her form and came up with a SQ/Sonnet. What I did wasn't new, although I haven't seen any other SQ/Sonnets. Sam took the liberty of making his own rules for his new form but part of the new form does, in fact, match the Cinquain format.

There are many variants to most poetry forms. This is how new forms are invented.

I enjoyed the poem and like the form. I, being a meter maid from way back, never cared much for the Cinquain anyway. Thanks to Sam, I can now enjoy a similar form which doesn't cause my brain to writhe in anguish trying to figure out the meterical flow.

Larry

Posted by: AMETHYST Sep 17 10, 01:16

Hi Larry,

Good to see you!!! It's been a while. Please do not take offense at my comment to Sam regarding the Cinquain - I see now what parts you are comparing it to - however, there is so much more to a Cinquain besides the Params of rhyme scheme, that I actually felt there was many other forms that it might have been a variant on.

I suppose my whole point to that comment was to give Sam a thumbs up that so far, the form, although simular is new to me!

I use to be a Cinquain Queen, in my earlier days. I too, for simular reasons as your own, don't find them that exciting - actually they are quite hard to create one that is in the TRUE sense of a Cinquain. I however, use them for filler poems in manuscripts... or links from one poem into another where there is a relationship but fully stand alone poems.

I also LOVE the Rictameters. I think they offer a little more for the poet to dabble with, however they are my filler poems as well.

I truly understand about variations on poems. I myself, created the Quatrain Refrain (named by Lori) and although there are a few simular forms, I haven't come across anything exact etiher.

Again, please accept my apology if you had taken it personal. It wasn't meant in that way, merely a way for me to give support to his desire to expand in his poetic acheievements.

So good to see you ... Miss your poetry as always ... as I am a meter woMan myself!

Best Wishes, Liz

Posted by: 4rum Sep 18 10, 07:36

Dear Liz and Larry;

Wonderful comments from both of you. Tinkering with form was not wholly aimed at a 'new' form, but one that would work better for me personally. I do like the English Sonnet, I don't like being restricted to fourteen lines. A lot of my poems are loooooooooooooooooong! I like Rhyme Royal, I don't like the seven line stanza as it often leaves me with just 'filler' in a couple of the lines.

I think that you, Liz, might enjoy doing one or two of these based on your love of cinquains. The one or two I've done with more serious subject matter do seem to flow pretty well. You can read without stumbling over that extra line that keeps it from being a quatrain.

Now ... I am quite obviously in over my head in any knowledge of form or structure when compared to either of you, but it gives me great pleasure that you both have offered such kind consideration of my dalliances.

A most sincere THANK YOU to you both!

Posted by: AMETHYST Sep 19 10, 22:25

Hey Sam,

Good to see you. Would love to read some of your Pentesams' to get a feel of subject with form. I like this form very much, for much of your own reasons. I have been working on one, but as of late, my pond of ideas, feelings and subject matter has been dried - so trying to revive some of the juices.

Please post one of your own here to get the juices flowing!

Hugs, Liz

Posted by: 4rum Sep 21 10, 10:05

Liz;

Overjoyed at your enthusaiam and encouragement. This is the only thing I could find from work. Don't have access to my files. This poem needs work and I do plan to revisit it, just haven't had time as I'm now into 'building' mountain dulcimers. Anywho ... here's this.

Posted by: Tinker1111 Oct 31 10, 21:12

Hi 4rum, Your poem is clever and I think the archaic language adds to its humor. I really enjoyed the read.

I am new here but verse forms are kind of my thing so seeing a new form, I was intrigued, but I am afraid it is not new. Your poem is written in the Traditional Cinquain of medieval French origin, which dates from the 11th century. In the 19th century it was revived by Victor Hugo. The Traditional Cinquain in the style of Victor Hugo is written in English in iambic tetrameter and sometimes iambic pentameter with rhyme schemes of ababb, or abaab or abccb.

Here is a poem by Philip Larkin (1922-1985), http://plagiarist.com/poetry/4865/ which is written in cinquains in iambic pentameter and rhyme scheme ababb, just as you describe. I also found http://www.bartleby.com/101/720.html by Robert Browning (1812-1889) which is written in Traditional Cinquains in tetrameter with the same rhyme scheme. I am afraid a few great poets beat you to the punch on this form. But you are in good company, I think Hugo in particular would enjoy your poem.

~~Tinker

Posted by: 4rum Feb 20 11, 03:24

Tinker1111;

I'm not nearly the scholar of some here, but I consider it a stretch to accept Mr. Larkin's poem as iambic pentameter. Trochee and/or syllable count seem a little akward to me. Thank you for your effort and research.

'rum

Posted by: Larry Feb 20 11, 16:12

Hi Sam,

Having acquiesced to the fact that your "Pentasam" is unique in a number of ways and not wishing to be argumentative, I thought I would include a few facts about Cinquains and their offshoots or perhaps the roots of the Cinquain itself.

Traditional Cinquains are based on syllables.
line 1 - 2 syllables
line 2 - 4 syllables
line 3 - 6 syllables
line 4 - 8 syllables
line 5 - 2 syllables

Modern Cinquains are based on word count in conjunction with words of a certain types.
line 1 - one word, usually a noun used as a title or name of the subject about which the poem is written
line 2 - two words, usually adjectives which describe the title
line 3 - three words, usually verbs which describe an action relating to the title
line 4 - four words describing a feeling about the title, usually in the form of a complete sentence
line 5 - one word referring back to the title

Most of the time in both types of Cinquains, there is no end-rhyme and thus, could be construed to be more prosaic in form.

I don't know where Tinker obtained information about the origination of this form but the American Cinquain was, in fact, invented in the late 1800's to a little before or around 1915 by Adelaide Crapsey and was inspired by the Japanese Haiku and Tanka forms. Other "five-line" poems such as the Sicilian quintain, the English quintain, the Spanish quintella, the Japanese tanka, and the French cinquain all predate her americanization of this form.

With the Sicilian quintain, the original form had no set form or meter, but later it was formalized using IP with the rhyme scheme of a b a b a. Not like the "Pentasam" which is ababb...

The French cinquain is most probably a foreshortened version of the French Ballade consisting of three Stanza of eight lines each with the rhyme scheme of ababbcbC, with recurrent "last-lines" in each successive stanza and which was then followed by a four line envoy with a bcbC rhyme scheme.

With the English quintain (probably derived from the French cinquain), there is no set measure or foot requirements but has the ababb rhyme scheme of the "Pentasam". Again, some of the parameters are met but not all.

The Cinquain is described as unique in its syllable count of each line; 2 4 6 8 2 and is nearly always unrhymed. The original form did not utilize IP (this would have been very difficult with varying syllable counts). Once again, unlike the "Pentasam".

As to Browning's "Porphyria's Lover"; this is an English Quintain in Tet - not a Cinquain (see above description of such).

Larkin's "Reasons For Attendance" breaks the proported Cinquain (actually another English Quintain) form in the first stanza - (4 lines), (no rhyme scheme - Identicals do not rhyme!), and (extra syls in LL1&3 - not pure IP).

Sam, I could go on but I won't. With your set parameters, your "Pentasam" may have similarities to other forms but, like the Cinquain, it is unique and thus, in my opinion a new form. I hope this is where discussion ends and appreciation begins.

Larry

Posted by: JustDaniel Feb 22 11, 00:36

Greetings, y'all.

Larry gives a pretty fair summary of cinquain here. I had wanted to add something myself the other day when I read all of this for the first time, so I was glad that Larry filled in some of the blanks, so that I don't need to.

I've personally written scores of the Crapsey type of cinquain and probably a few of the 'modern' cinquains, but I'd really never heard of 'cinquain' outside of that context. Larry's identifying the quintain, and my own realization of why there seems to have been a confusion, prior to reading what Larry wrote, can be summed up in this:

Cinquain as a FORM, traditionally, has been considered to refer to the Crapsey type of poem or offshoots of it.

Cinquain or Quintain, as a STANZA, refers to ANY five-line STANZA, either rhyming or unrhyming....

So if one chooses to rhyme it with a particular rhyming pattern, metrical pattern, or whatever, I suppose could be construed as the invention of a new form, but I personally don't see it as such myself....

I've written dozens of SONNETS that have variations of the traditional rhyming patterns, neither English, Spencerian, Italian or whatever, but I honestly don't think that my variants warrant my giving it a new name. I suppose if dozens of others jumped on the bandwagon and followed my lead, then I'd have created a new "FORM".... but short of that, I could only say that I was playing with a form that was already there.....

In THIS case, our colleague has given us some nice options of playing with the STANZA called quintain or cinquain.... but the poetry world will likely not call this a FORM, and will not likely give it the name "Cinquain" since that name is pretty well established already....

and I think it's been written on a good deal here in Karnak somewhere as well.

deLighting in the stimulating discussion, Daniel


P.S. Just looked up that place I mentioned. You might all enjoy looking at the fun we all had with http://forums.mosaicmusings.net/index.php?showtopic=44&st=0

Posted by: 4rum Feb 22 11, 02:57

Thanks Larry for your very detailed introspect into this discussion.

Basically I have a poem to write. It is to be a sequal. I'm not eager to follow the form of the first poem. I went looking for a form which suited my particular need. There may be many, I didn't find any.

If we look far enough back I suppose, we will find that there is actually only one form of written expression. I've explored as far as I need to. I've done a couple of writings using the five lines and it seems to work for me.

The incentive for the search was never to 'invent' anything. With time and effort I imagine I could disqualify almost any form recognized today by "the poetry world" (which in itself might require some definition if we wish to pick nits).

If nothing else the discussion has provided me with much invaluable knowledge that I did not have before. I thank each and every one of you for your guidance.

'rum

Posted by: JustDaniel Feb 22 11, 09:38

Discovery

Each poet writes as best he may
and learns new 'rules' he could deform
but gains from others on the way
and plays with meter, rhyme and form;
at times reception is lukewarm.
But he plows on and gets a feel
for nuances to share his soul,
then unexpectedly he'll peel
another layer or he'll stroll
in freedom losing self-control
so what he writes reveals a part
of him inside he didn't know --
there on the paper is his heart
displayed in red, a strange tableau
of pain-stirred love... whispers 'Hello'.

© MLee Dickens'son 2011