Tristan’s Cowardice (2nd Revision), Wizard Award ~ Sonnet Variation, (or Couplet Sonnet) Options

[Guest_Gregory_*]

2nd Revision 20/09/06

I did not have the courage to caress
more than just lay my eyes upon her dress,
yet on my guitar she stroked her candour,
music made for tears but never bitter.

I sat an Adam struck dumb and heaving,
awoken to her soul and naked grieving
for her poisoned apple’s delicious scent,
her divine delirious discontent.

As though Ogrin’s peak squashed my weeping soul,
too awed in emotion to move but whole,
this love too great and grand, and yet fulfilled,
as heart and ecstasy so doubly stilled.

Why should Tristan’s hand not find Isolde’s thigh
Though mountain peaks play handsome with the sky?


1st Revision Tristan's Cowerdice.

Why had not I the courage to caress
More full than lay my eyes on her sad dress
And so she struck the strings of my guitar
Music made for salt but not for bitter

I sat and heaved, like some love-lost Adam
Now awake to his soul-naked madam
Her poison appeal, her maleficent scent
Her divine delirious discontent

And under Everest's peak in stillness crouched
Too awed to move, my spirit slouched
This love too great, too grand, to be fulfilled
My heart, our soul and sex, forever stilled

Should not Tristan’s hand find Isolte’s ripe thigh
Though mountain peaks play handsome with the sky?

Original

Why I had not the courage to caress
More full than lay my eyes on her sad dress
And let her stroke the strings of my guitar
Such music more amorous for her candour

There I sat a heaving will of Adam
Lust-awoken to his naked madam
Paralysed by her poisoned apple’s scent
Her divine delirious discontent

I know not but under Everest crouched
Too in awe of motion, so spirit slouched
My love too great, too grand, to be fulfilled
My heart, my soul, my sex, forever stilled

Should Tristan’s hand not reach Isolte’s ripe thigh
Though mountain peaks play handsome with the sky?

[Guest_Cathy_*]

Hi Gregory,

Could you tell me what kind of sonnet this is please? I've tried to find one that matches this but the closest I can get is the English or Spenserian sonnet... and that's only because you have used 3 quatrains and a couplet. Neither rhyme scheme matches yours.

English - ABAB CDCD EFEF GG or ABBA CDDC EFFE GG

Spenserian - ABAB BCBC CDCD EE

Yours - AABB CCDD EEFF GG

And from what I could see, sonnets are written in iambic. Some of your lines are and some aren't. I will wait till you enlighten me as to the specific sonnet before commenting further as I don't want to mess things up.

Cathy

[Eisa]

Hi Gregory

Looking at cathy's comment -- I have written a sonnet in aabbccddeeffgg format before, but don't know if it is a recognized sonnet form, but then people do sometimes deviate. I'm sure Daniel would be able to help us here.

I feel it is your meter that lets this sonnet down. I would work on getting the first line meter perfect as this will be more likely to draw the reader further. Something like ~

Why did my courage wither to caress

I feel St3 has too many my's and some could be reworked.

I look forward to your revision.

Snow

[Merlin]

This would be a Couplet Sonnet, if it has the qualifications of being a sonnet (and I'm not judging at this moment). Sonnets come in a number of varieties, not merely the Petrarchan and Shakespearean. There is a whole raft of recognized forms, albeit some rare. Then there are the "Indefinable" ones, the most well known is "Ozymandias", which has all the makings of a sonnet, yet fits no fixed form.

It is generally accepted that sonnets are written in iambic pentameter, having a "situation" presented, and solving that situation after what's called the "Volta", or turn - or a summation in a heroic couplet.

Anyone for a Pushkin Sonnet?

Merlin

[Arnfinn]

g'Day,

Yeah, ya three variations are (basics) are 1 Petrarchian. 2 Spenserian, 3 Shakespearian.

A sonnet consists of fourteen lines, usually of iambic pentametres.
SO, there can be many variations within those parameters, for those who wish to improvise. Anyone can make their own rules within the guidelines.

With one exception. The Curtail sonnet.(cut short) ie; a sonnet one stanza 6 next stanza 4.

Which cannot be varied.

I've never seen a Curtail Sonnet in any poetry sites

Gerard Hopkins wrote one called Peace.

I do apologise Gregory,

I will come back tomorrow...

I have to fly.


John

[Guest_Gregory_*]

Cathy, I think the others have answered the sonnet question a bit better than I can. i was inspired to write this in whatever word pattern that came out, and it happened to be AABB etc. i have added the revision after giving the iambic pantameter a bit of a think. Thank you for your questions.

Snow, I worked on the metre as you suggested (thank you) and the revision is above. I decided to just move the I in L1, this works for me. I have reworked the my's and introduced another motif into the content through the pronoun 'our' which I was grateful for. This said it better than the first attempt. I hope you give it another look.

Merlin, thanks for the summation, couplet sonnet sounds good to me. As far as I can tell a sonnet is no longer as restricted as, say, a sestina, but follows the basic rules you outlined in form. The weighting of words within the form is more important than the form itself in garnering the message of the sonnet. Basically, this is a poem that adheres to a set formulaic form and metre but vary's within that hopefully without distorting the iambic. Something like that anyway. I'm a bit of a free thinker when it comes to form. Anything that sounds beautiful read silently and aloud and contains a powerful message is a good sonnet in my book despite its form, with the proviso that it adheres to that form without distorting it.

John, nice to be shown what the basic are, thanks, saves diving into the Wikapedia. Got to try that Curtail sonnet. Always up for a challenge. I'm just calling this one 'sonnet' just to confuse everyone.

Thanks all, please tell me what you think of the revised version.
Cheers, Gregory

[Eisa]

Hi Gregory

Your revision does appear to have improved certain parts of this. I'm off out soon, but will return to have a better look.

Snow

[Arnfinn]

!st Revision Tristan's Cowerdice.

Why had not I the courage to caress
More full than lay my eyes on her sad dress
And so she struck the strings of my guitar
Music made for salt but not for bitter

I sat and heaved, like some love-lost Adam
Now awake to his soul-naked madam
Her poison appeal, her maleficent scent<<< ?
Her divine delirious discontent

And under Everest's peak in stillness crouched
Too awed to move, my spirit slouched<<< ?
This love too great, too grand, to be fulfilled
My heart, our soul and sex, forever stilled<<<?

Should not Tristan’s hand find Isolte’s ripe thigh
Though mountain peaks play handsome with the sky?

Original

Why I had not the courage to caress
More full than lay my eyes on her sad dress
And let her stroke the strings of my guitar
Such music more amorous for her candour

There I sat a heaving will of Adam
Lust-awoken to his naked madam
Paralysed by her poisoned apple’s scent
Her divine delirious discontent

I know not but under Everest crouched
Too in awe of motion, so spirit slouched
My love too great, too grand, to be fulfilled
My heart, my soul, my sex, forever stilled

Should Tristan’s hand not reach Isolte’s ripe thigh
Though mountain peaks play handsome with the sky?

Hi Gregory,

Mate, the reason I don't write sonnets is because they're too hard. Haven't got any here at MM, because I can't master the Iambic P.

First I must say, you have a good poem here, I like the octive that develops the thought then the volta that changes the feeling and the completion.

I have a few indicators, above, where I thought the meter may be off a tad.

I mentioned the Curtail Sonnet...

The correct name, the sobriquet, by the inventor Gerard Manley Hopkins, is Curtal Sonnet.

It is a 6/4 with ahalf line tail-piece.

Example.

Pied Beauty.

Glory be to God for dappled things-
For skies a couple-colour as a brinded cow;
For rose-moles all in stipple upon trout that swim;
Fresh-firecoal chestnut-falls; finches' wings;
Landscape plotted and pieced - fold, fallow, and plough;
And all trades, their gear and tackle and trim.


All things counter, original, spare, stranger;
Whatever is fickle, freckled (who knows how?)
With swift, slow; sweet, sour; adazzle, dim:
Her fathers-forth whose beauty is past change:
Praise him.

This a recognised sonnet form?

meter?
Rhyme counterpoint?
The half - rhyme, 'fathers-forth' is unusual imposition I think.

Well mate there she is a Curtal Sonnet.

May I say, I now realise, why I've never seen one!


Regards,


John

[Guest_Cathy_*]

Morning Gregory!

You still have an interesting mix of meter throughout the piece. That can work well. I do that myself sometimes.

Why had not I the courage to caress
More full than lay my eyes on her sad dress
And so she struck the strings of my guitar
Music made for salt but not for bitter I don't quite understand what you mean here in the last line.

I sat and heaved, like some[a] love-lost Adam
Now awake to his soul-naked madam
Her poison appeal, her maleficent scent Why not use 'apple' scent because of what caused the downfall in Eden?
Her divine delirious discontent

And under Everest's peak in stillness crouched
Too awed to move, my spirit slouched
This love too great, too grand, to be fulfilled
My heart, our soul and sex, forever stilled

Should not Tristan’s hand find Isolte’s ripe thigh Seems a syllable too long although I know sometimes they don't stay at 10 per line. IMO it reads smoother without the extra in this line but it may just be me.
Though mountain peaks play handsome with the sky? What do you mean by 'play handsome' please? Must be too early for me! LOL

Use or lose as you see fit of course! *smiles*

I'm just calling this one 'sonnet' just to confuse everyone.

I like to write in form variations from time to time but I try to remember to explain the variation that I've employed. I think it would be nice to see 'Sonnet Variant' or something similar in your sub-heading so as not to confuse those members who might want to learn to write a sonnet in correct form. *smiles*

Thank you and have a good one~

Cathy

[Merlin]

I’d like to expand on Arnfinn’s comments above – that’s “Curtal Sonnet,” as per Gerald M Hopkins, not “Curtail”, as is corrected. It’s after a musical instrument that had its tone shortened, being too noisy probably! Curtal has 10.5 lines, with Volta, following a mathematical formula Hopkins applied. He did 3, and others have done some since his time. Recently, one ezboard forum had the Curtal as a challenge form. Quite right, they’re not common.

There are sonnets with a tail, nonetheless. Caudate is Petrarchan with a tail, making 20 lines. Heroic Sonnet has 18 lines. Stretched Sonnet has 16 lines because somebody couldn’t compress his thoughts to 14. They’re all called sonnets – go figger!

The Vietnamese “Song That Luc Bat Sonnet” has 10 lines – but I can’t tell you why. I stand to be corrected, believing “Limerick” translates into Chinese as “Sonnet”.


Typo in the title – Cowardice
Typo in Isolte – ougta be Isolde. No time for tea here.

You can often get away with adding a syllable to make a feminine ending, but down in your couplet, I think you’ll need to rework things a bit. In order to keep iambic flow, it will need to be along the lines of:
If Tristan’s hand could touch Isolde’s thigh (If TRI-stan’s HAND could TOUCH I-SOL-de’s THIGH)
I don’t kapeesh your final line. Try:
His thrill surpasses mountain peaks sky high. (His THRILL sur-PASS-es MOUNT-ain PEAKS sky HIGH.)

There tis.

Merlin

[AMETHYST]

Hello Gregory,

There is a lot of going back and forth about the form, in which you imply not only are you unaware of what Variation in the Sonnet Form this is, but that you merely called it a sonnet without having any real background to guide yourself on the structure of the poem.

I will be giving critique on the ideal that you truly are looking to accomplish a true Sonnet. Please Gregory, in the future, when posting a Formed poem, please do a little research and post something that shows some adherence to the guidelines of the form in which you are attempting.

The first things that come to mind when reading this is (Personal Preference) is the lack of punctuation, makes it quite difficult to allow pause and end stops. Especially on lines that can surely be enhanced by the use of a longer pause or sudden shift in tone. You might want to consider using punctuation to help the reader enhance the feeling of your meaning.
Another thing that I noticed was the lack of a volta. It is one of those requirements that regardless of what Variation offered. And last, but not least... I happen to enjoy an archaic tone, but only when done right. IMO, I think what makes it an asset to a poem is when it meets a certain criteria.

1. Not overly done. Sparingly
2. That the theme of the poem be enhanced or to emphasize a time era or voice of the narrator.
3. When used correctly in order to make sense (when the meaning of what the poet is saying isn't sacrificed for the use of archaic words...)

Personally, I think you need some reshaping of the poem... But I also see promise and lots of potential.

Hope I leave something that will be a benefit to you... Please use of lose what you may!

Best regards, Liz

1st Revision Tristan's Cowerdice.

Tristan's Cowardice ???

Why had not I the courage to caress
More full than lay my eyes on her sad dress
And so she struck the strings of my guitar
Music made for salt but not for bitter

L1: To start the poem off on a very awkward note holds the poem back at the start. I often try to have the first line or stanza have some hook, drawing the reader's interest. When a reader has to work so hard to understand the first few lines, it is sort of a turn off.

The words, or the meaning I should say, makes me feel as though the narrator is speaking in a conversational tone. The end rhymes are very weak and/or forced for rhyme sake. Also, the interpretation is difficult to pick through...

caress/dress Can a dress be sad?
L2 is extremely awkward and is hard to get around.
L3/L4: guitar/bitter to my ear is surely not very strong rhymes
L4, really makes very little sense.

An example:
Why hadn't I the courage to caress
with more than just my eyes upon her dress.
For when she strummed the strings of my guitar;
I heard such music swaying all the stars.

(not great but it shows what I am mean, hopefully coming close to your intention...)


I sat and heaved, like some love-lost Adam
Now awake to his soul-naked madam
Her poison appeal, her maleficent scent
Her divine delirious discontent

L1, is a bit choppy, but a much stronger and more fresher image to relay the ideal of love lorn...
Also, if you are tempting a headless Iamb, it is not strong enough here to pull it off. I myself, use them sparingly and only when the add something to the poem's voice. Although I will keep with your chosen end rhymes... and see what I come up with.

Perhaps...

I sat, heaving like some love-sick adam,
awakened to this soul-naked madam
with poisonous appeal and obscene scent;
deliriously divine discontent -



And under Everest's peak in stillness crouched
Too awed to move, my spirit slouched
This love too great, too grand, to be fulfilled
My heart, our soul and sex, forever stilled

This is where the volta should be predominent. I do see a mild turnabout and it could be enhanced.

Suggest a comma after Everest's peak, and also after crouched
get ride of the caps on all the lines that aren't beginning sentences.



Should not Tristan’s hand find Isolte’s ripe thigh
Though mountain peaks play handsome with the sky?


I would suggest omitting 'ripe' no need for it and it doesn't add anything more ... and the final line, really doesn't make much sense when connecting L13... Please offer some interpretation so that I may offer an idea or commentary... Perhaps it is me and I am just not seeing it clearly.

[Guest_Gregory_*]

Liz, sure I'll do a bit of research before posting. I'm afraid I have been using the forum here to learn about the form before informing myself. I guess you can see that. I will amend my approach. I'm grateful for your candour. As to sonnet variant, well I will call it that. I dont get it though, my irony in saying that I would just call it a sonnet was meant to imply, given that I had said that I would call it a couplet sonnet, that to call it just a 'variant' would be a bit like saying dermatitis for a skin disease. (Dermatitis is a general term, not a case specific). I have a bit of a twisted sense of humour and I vouch it seems not to be well recieved in the formal forums. I will sober up a little methinks.
I do wish to write a 'true' sonnet, obviously, for why would i have bothered to go this far into the experience. I wrote this sonnet knowing only that the sonnet form was 4442 with rhyming couplets and in iambic panameter with some variants. What I wrote was a poem, in the sonnet form. I was striving to write the best poem i could, not the best sonnet, because I had no idea I was not adhering to the generally accepted guidlines of sonnet form. I have learned a lot in here, and in writing this poem. I could take your idea of the 'true' poem as a form of aesthetic hubris, but i'm sure you didn't mean that. I think your comment about "showing some adherence..." was plainly ignorant of the fact that my attempt adhered very well to the sonnet form, although not obviously as well as a polished draft. To say "some" implies that my poem in no way resembled a sonnet, and this is patently wrong. An authoritative tone imposed in a letter better have some authority behind it to be effective. The same goes for logic in argument.

The punctuation could do with a once over. I will focus on that in the revision.
As to the archaic tone, the voice is Tristan's and as the title suggests, the cowardice (got it right this time) was based on old-age chivalry, shyness and Christian romantism, which I thought would be better expressed in archaric tone. No.2 in your list. You might debate whether Tristan and Isolde is the right period for the kind of archaic language that I'm using? I would be interested to know.

You are right about that hook, it helps. I would say the archaic tone would make this a hard read anyway, though I think you read way to literally to make sense of S1. Her dress can mean both what she is wearing, and there are a lot of sad looking dresses out there (they make you feel sad) as Tristan was feeling here, and her dress can also be the way she holds herself, her demenour. There is the same double intention in the third line. The last line is weak and I will revise, but it attempts to express the difference in Isolde's musical intention, salt (for tears) and bitter ( for bitterness). I dont know, this is primary school stuff, why am I explaining!! I am grateful for being checked on whether I am adhering to the form, but I cannot help your comprehension. I will keep the idea but revise the line. I think my S2 is superior to your attempt, you cut out its primality. I will go back to using the apple as a symbol in line 3, instead of malificent. Adam might be worn but this is about temptation primarily. I dont see how sentimentalising it can strengthen this. I agree that the headless iambs might be off here, I will try a few alternatives.
That mild turnaround in the volta is meant to extend the meaning of movement to its extreme, the movement is in the end the stillness between them. I agree it may be hard to visualise.
The couplet is Tristan asking himself why shouldn't he touch Isolde when the mountains boldy "handsomely" touch the sky. The great sexual urge of nature is implied by the sexual connotation of handsome (flirting, playing handsome), and Tristan is wishing he were that bold. If you follow nature, you don't hesitate, is his message to himself. The trick in the sonnet is that Tristan is stilled and therefore the reader is left in doubt about whether he will use his understanding and do what his nature commands. Anyway its all there in the poem. I will revise with your extensive comments in mind, and thank you for your run down, very helpful indeed. Cheers Gregory.

[AMETHYST]

Liz, sure I'll do a bit of research before posting. I'm afraid I have been using the forum here to learn about the form before informing myself. I guess you can see that. I will amend my approach. I'm grateful for your candour.

Hi Greg,

Ah do I remember first learning Sonnets. At first it was quite frightening, but after the first few, I found it difficult to write in any other form for a long while! Hopefully we will be getting the Mentoring Workshop off the ground soon enough and will have several learning threads on the various varieties of the Sonnet. Me, personally--I don't take to the off sets of the form, I feel, in respect to the form and the skill that the Bards have used to create such poems that will remain memorable, I think they are the lazy way out sometimes, or that they shouldn't be given the name Sonnet. However, I do acknowledge many exist and many are well written. To me a variance of any form, is something developed or sprung from the form but also takes its own individuality and to me it should be given its own name. Like the Tritina, a variant of Sestina. It branched from the Sestina and was reborn with its own name in light of the params.

Herme's, like Serens. is a place to post poems that have been worked on, at the least, proofread and ready to improve. The learning comes from the information on how to improve the poem at hand and our growth and knowledge stem from that. But Karnak offers many threads to learn and practice a form that you would like to learn. At least to familiarize yourself with so that when you have a completed poem and you are posting the poem in our critique forums, you can advise the Form that you are using and have some information regarding the form to show that you are writing in that form.

As to sonnet variant, well I will call it that. I dont get it though, my irony in saying that I would just call it a sonnet was meant to imply, given that I had said that I would call it a couplet sonnet, that to call it just a 'variant' would be a bit like saying dermatitis for a skin disease. (Dermatitis is a general term, not a case specific). I have a bit of a twisted sense of humour and I vouch it seems not to be well recieved in the formal forums. I will sober up a little methinks.

Actually if you want my honest opinion, I don't think it is a variant, I don't know of any couplet Sonnet and I have checked many Websites that are specific to the Sonnet and have not come across anything called the Couplet Sonnet. I suppose it is a Variation in that its params are AABB ... etc... Each line couplets to create a full sonnet. Which, ok... you might call this a Couplet Sonnet. My comment wasn't that you weren't attempting to write a Sonnet, it was your implication that you had no idea what you wrote and that you were only posting this to confuse the members. I encourage you and others to take on the challenge of a Sonnet, and perhaps you might want to learn a lot more on the Sonnet by checking out

Sonnets

You might also be quite surprised to learn that Forms such as Kyrielle and other might be considered variations of the Sonnet. What I was asking you is that when you attempt a formed poem, post that it is that which you are attempting.

I do wish to write a 'true' sonnet, obviously, for why would i have bothered to go this far into the experience. I wrote this sonnet knowing only that the sonnet form was 4442 with rhyming couplets and in iambic panameter with some variants. What I wrote was a poem, in the sonnet form.

Yes, and that is good. However, perhaps you might want to start with learning how to write a True Sonnet first, and then let your skills expand to other 'alternate Sonnet Forms. What is 4442? That isn't what a Sonnet is consisted of... Perhaps when you attempt any form, you might read up on the requirements of the form and practice your Iambic Pentameter and grow from there.

I was striving to write the best poem i could, not the best sonnet, because I had no idea I was not adhering to the generally accepted guidlines of sonnet form. I have learned a lot in here, and in writing this poem. I could take your idea of the 'true' poem as a form of aesthetic hubris, but i'm sure you didn't mean that. I think your comment about "showing some adherence..." was plainly ignorant of the fact that my attempt adhered very well to the sonnet form, although not obviously as well as a polished draft. To say "some" implies that my poem in no way resembled a sonnet, and this is patently wrong. An authoritative tone imposed in a letter better have some authority behind it to be effective. The same goes for logic in argument.

I agree, I used the wrong choice of words. I didn't mean that your posted poem had no familiarness to a Sonnet. This does show a lot of characteristics of a Sonnet. My apologies for implying it didn't show some characteristics. However the poem is in needs of some work in order to enhance the Sonnet aspects. Again, if you are serious about learning The Sonnet form, my suggestion is to start with the established Sonnets and read a lot of Sonnet Poets. But beware once you start writing in the form, it is so hard to start writing in something else again!

The punctuation could do with a once over. I will focus on that in the revision.
As to the archaic tone, the voice is Tristan's and as the title suggests, the cowardice (got it right this time) was based on old-age chivalry, shyness and Christian romantism, which I thought would be better expressed in archaric tone. No.2 in your list. You might debate whether Tristan and Isolde is the right period for the kind of archaic language that I'm using? I would be interested to know.

I didn't say the poem wasn't the right kind for an archaic voice, what I offered was bits and hints to consider when writing in archaic language to make work for you and not against you. I don't often think it is so much of an era, but rather a feeling that it gives to the voice of a poem. My 1/2/3 rules of thumb are my own ... and I shared them with you... to offer a point to consider when writing in archaic voice. Your use of archaism within this poem was weak and felt that you might want to improve it.

I dont know, this is primary school stuff, why am I explaining!! I am grateful for being checked on whether I am adhering to the form, but I cannot help your comprehension. I will keep the idea but revise the line. I think my S2 is superior to your attempt, you cut out its primality. I will go back to using the apple as a symbol in line 3, instead of malificent. Adam might be worn but this is about temptation primarily. I dont see how sentimentalising it can strengthen this. I agree that the headless iambs might be off here, I will try a few alternatives.

As the poet, it is your job to write a poem that can make sense to others. It isn't Primary school stuff and if your poem was working for you, your wouldn't have to explain it. It would be self explanatory. I like the apple as well.

The poem makes little sense. I also understand your implications to temptation, but also Tristan fell in love which involves sentiment, not just temptation. Use of course what you will and toss what doesn't fit your intent to the poem. We are all here to improve each others works, and my role in that is to offer you honest critique that you may or maynot benefit from. Good luck with your Sonnet Journey.

Cheers, Liz ...




Cheers, Liz

[Cybele]

Good Morning Gregory,


Nice to meet you here.

i was inspired to write this in whatever word pattern that came out,

Firstly I read the crits as far as this statement and then decided to wade in without being influenced by the experts on form here. I am not such a one unfortunately.
This reflects my feelings entirely. I find it extremely difficult to adhere strictly to form. Words come and need to be written down. I don’t choose the form, it just happens. I do try to pay attention to soft rhymes and most importantly meter, but that is where my observance of strict form ends.

I like your poem (sonnet or not) very much indeed! I like the language you have chosen to use to set the mood of the poem. It certainly reflects the language of the times for the most part.

I live in Somerset and have climbed Roche Rock, considered to be the site of the hermit Ogrin’s chapel where Tristan and Isolte were said to meet in secret trysts.

A couple of thoughts for you to consider ~ or not as the case may be

Why had not I the courage to caress
More full than lay my eyes on her sad dress
And so she struck the strings of my guitar
Music made for salt but not for bitter

I feel your opening line showing his regret, might also reflect the anger he would feel at his timidity. I might suggest something like..

Great Gods! Had I but courage to caress

L2 More fully than with eyes on her sad dress
L3 When first she struck the strings of my guitar

I love the last line, which I take to mean to induce tears of joy rather than sadness?

And under Everest's peak in stillness crouched
Too awed to move, my spirit slouched
This love too great, too grand, to be fulfilled
My heart, our soul and sex, forever stilled

L1 I don’t get the reference to Everest here Gregory. Perhaps you might consider introducing Ogrin here?


So under Ogrin’s peak in stillness crouched

L2 Needs another two syllables I feel. Maybe

Too awed to move, my trepid spirit slouched

L4 Not being prudish but I feel the word sex has no place in this very romantic poem Gregory. You could convey the same ardour with..

My heart, my soul and needs forever stilled

Should not Tristan’s hand find Isolte’s ripe thigh
Though mountain peaks play handsome with the sky?

L1 Would ne’er my hand lay soft on her sweet thigh
L2 As mountain peaks will stroke a golden sky?

Very much enjoyed, and the romantic element flowed freely for me.




Excuse the aside please Gregory

Hi Arnie,

You have quoted a poem very dear to my heart. When I was young I was all legs, teeth and freckles (Which I hated vehemently). My mother used to quote Pied Beauty to me to bolster my confidence. It didn’t work then but I have come to accept it.


Pied Beauty.

Glory be to God for dappled things-
For skies a couple-colour as a brinded cow;
For rose-moles all in stipple upon trout that swim;
Fresh-firecoal chestnut-falls; finches' wings;
Landscape plotted and pieced - fold, fallow, and plough;
And all trades, their gear and tackle and trim.

All things counter, original, spare, stranger;
Whatever is fickle, freckled (who knows how?)
With swift, slow; sweet, sour; adazzle, dim:
Her fathers-forth whose beauty is past change:
Praise him.

And she used to add

And fair- faced freckled damsels.

[Arnfinn]

G'day,

Just a few words.

I'm a plebe as far as sonnets go. And I commend Gregory on his adventuresome sonnet.

A lot of hard work goes into writing a sonnet. If you choose a basic form, you won't just get mixed up in a rhyme scheme. There' lll be things like, octaves, sestets, voltas and combining rhyming couplets... and meter.

Whoo...I've never written a sonnet. For any poet to post a sonnet and get positive feedback must be an exhilarating sense of achievement.

Liz's knowledge, is notable for her clear understanding of the sonnet form. We should all take notice and be influenced.

Gregory,

Your poem, as I said, is adventurous and very good. I'f anyone here has read shakespearian sonnets, the main attraction in the theme is love that explores many different moods and experiences, sometimes the heatbreak, sometime the sadness and so on. Your on the ball here Gregory, the opening description, the turn, and the completion.




John.

[AMETHYST]

Thank you John, I appreciate your support. Although I really am not that knowledgable of any form, what I know of the Sonnet is what I have learned from great members across the internet. Reading months and months on Sonnet Central before actually interacting and having poets who were willing to have the patience and most of all the honesty to tell me when my poetry wasn't good and what I can do to make the improvements. I only learned what I know of Sonnets because of my interest and love of the form. However, I am a very uneducated person...and what I know I only know because of others on line that have offered to share with me, all of what they have learned.

Gregory... I am hopeful of your poem and look forward to your growth in Sonnetry!


Best Regards, Liz

[Guest_Gregory_*]

O.K friend critics i owe a couple of replys. Eisa, thanks for checking out the revision, another one is on the way thanks to everyone here. i am ironing out the problems bit by bit, Cathy has been a great help.

John, I am finding out just how hard mate, and that Iamb P is a killer. Thanks for the positive analysis. I have changed the meter a bit in revision 2. Thanks for the info on the Curtal (or sobriquet), very interesting. I liked your example too.
Cathy,thanks for the indepth, really helpful stuff. I wonder if pure iamb is aesthetically the order of the day. I still like my old turntable, the digital is too clean. The mix of meter is more natural if it comes through the context of the writing, I still think that we should tend toward the pure but get there only if the poem demands it. I have revised again and I will post it after these replys. your suggestions have been noted duly. 'Playing handsome' has a number of meanings, the most obvious is flirting in the context of this poem. Another meaning is not really being handsome, in which handsome means both good looking and masculine or courageously sexually. The most obtruse meaning is associated with H. Melville in his story Billy Budd, in which handsome is 'un-thinking'. "Handsome is as handsome does". The mountain playing handsome places the action in nature, the mountain pretends it is as high as the sky and deems to touch it, but obviously the mountain and sky are already touching, there is no playing. Tristan is obviously missing his own point. This is the cruical meaning of the poem and why its title deems him a coward. The cowardice is intellectual, not physical, for he doesn't understand his own nature. If he did, this poem would be purple.
From here on I shall entitle every variation, no sweat. Cheers Gregory

Merlin, it seems there are many forms of sonnet and yet their form is not the sonnet, please explain that. HEHE, i never thought writing a sonnet was going to get this complicated. Some here even believe I wrote it just to confuse people, wow. This has got to be the single worst message communicator I have ever written. I would like to see those Hopkins formulae. I think I might bypass trying to write one just now.It seems that all you have to do is write an iambic P poem with some lines and call it a sonnet and hey presto, you have one. About that Chinese translation, the Irish must love the Chinese. Thanks for the suggestions about the last couplet, i have gone over them in my revision with your ideas in mind. Thanks again, Gregory

[Guest_Cathy_*]

Hi Gregory,

You wrote this comment to Merlin...

Merlin, it seems there are many forms of sonnet and yet their form is not the sonnet, please explain that. HEHE, i never thought writing a sonnet was going to get this complicated. Some here even believe I wrote it just to confuse people, wow.

I pulled this portion of comment that you wrote to John...

John, nice to be shown what the basic are, thanks, saves diving into the Wikapedia. Got to try that Curtail sonnet. Always up for a challenge. I'm just calling this one 'sonnet' just to confuse everyone.

You were the one who said you were calling it a sonnet just to confuse everyone! LOL

I'm glad I could offer something useful. I know how hard it is to write a sonnet. I've only written a couple of them myself and they aren't very good ones! That's been a while, haven't tried one since. *smiles*

Cathy

[Cleo_Serapis]

One point to note for all:

If one posts a specific form as Gregory did in this one, i.e.SONNET, then the crits will (and should) be based on that form's parameters (including meter).

If ANY of the params are NOT in conformance, then we will suggest the poet change the title to : based on the form 'x' so the critters can make an informed reply IF the poet does not wish to be in conformance with the required elements of the form.

Gregory - is this a Sonnet, or based on the form of Sonnet? If the latter, I will edit your title. Feel free to interact in the Sonnet thread in our learning forum, Karnak Crossing.

Regards
~Cleo

[Guest_Gregory_*]

Liz, thanks heaps for your thoughts, I am coming round to your understanding of Sonnet now and now see the importance of the form and its history. I kind of blundered in as you said, but I shall make it up by trying my best to improve this variation and try writing a 'true' sonnet. I'm not sure exactly what you mean by that (is it Shakespearean, or one that follows the iamb P perfectly?) I believe in keeping the memory of the work the bards have done alive too, although I am a great believer in inspiration as well. I have read a good many sonnets (Shakespeare, Marlowe, and more modern poets also) and got to know them intimately. I wasn't working completely blind, and I wasn't sure what variation the sonnet I wrote was this is why I could only title it sonnet. I was just joking about calling it that anyway. I didn't think the sense of the poem was that hidden, I hope I can improve it. I acknowledge that the writer is the controller of the message not the reader and the clearer the message, the less controversy. "If a wild animal bites you, its never the fault of the animal. " Steve Irwin. How do you think I could improve the archaism in the poem? I'm not sure i addressed that issue in my revision. I have enjoyed learning about the sonnet, thanks again. Gregory

Cybele, many thanks for your thumbs up. I do like to just jump into a poem at times, but i guess there is room for improving technicalities too. The voice of this poem was meant to be a jealous seething not explosive anger, as Tristan is (actually its not even Tristan, the narrator is equating himself with the legendary hero, who in the legend was not even brave enough to touch the thigh of Isolde, even though the water from a pond had no such qualms when it splashed on her. Her thoughts were "Poor Tristan has not even the courage of this drop". ) crushed under the tallest mountain in the world (Everest), which touching her seemed like to him. I do like Ogrin's peak however, as it places the action at the home of this couple, nice suggestion. How big does a mountain have to be anyway before it crushes someone. Your suggestion also introduces the idea that Tristan is under "Ogrin's peak" or in the chapel, which gives it historical and religious significance. As for the sex, well if they met in secret trysts nowadays what else would they be doing? lol. Actually, sex, was used in its meaning of identity rather than the action of sex, although it implied that directly too. I used the line "lust-awoken" in the original sonnet because this is exactly what the narrator was wanting, sex, but his lady de-sexes him through sensuality directed through song and music. This is not really a romantic poem at all, it uses romance to point at a deeper instinct, the sex drive itself and the notion of romantic love which is actually platonic. Thanks for the pointers and your encouragement, most appreciated. Gregory

John, you are right about a lot of work. I think this sonnet is taking over my life. The main theme of sonnets does seem to be about love doesn't it. I thought the situation that i was describing needed the sonnet form for some reason, don't know why. It was like the narrator was trying to write a love poem and got stuck on himself instead of his woman and then tried to cover it up by pretending that the hero Tristan was a hero because he was such a gentleman. You are absolutely right about Liz, my hats off to her. Cheers.

Liz, I would hardly call you an uneducated person. i hope you were joking about that because that's patently wrong. I apologize for my bad temper and thank you for your kind contribution to my education. cheers and adieu, Gregory