Essay Review: Are Poetry Boards Good For Poetry, The antithesis of 'What do poets enjoy most at MM' Options

[Cleo_Serapis]

Hello all,

Rus from the IBPC has put forth a new email loop and link even as some of our members are still researching the first, "What do poets enjoy the most about your forums" at the link below.
What do our poets enjoy the most at MM?

In this new thread, we'll look at an antithesis to that one. Click into this article carried by an E-zine:
The Pee in the Pool of On Line Poetry, by Terreson

This article focuses on the questions posed at its start: Are poetry boards good for poetry?

Do the boards benefit poets, the new and inexperienced especially who, in most cases, are grappling with the vital stuff of finding an authentic voice, gaining confidence in themselves, working through the canon, trying to figure out if they have something essential to say, and all at the same time? Do the boards, viewed as communities, engender poetry whose language is also authentic or do they falsify the poetry experience? Another question comes to mind. Is even the notion of an online poetry community good for poetry? And maybe one last question. What impact on poets, and on poetry itself, do the parameters, the rules of conduct and the by-laws, of many boards have?

As we all strive to build a knowledge base of what makes a poetry forum work best for the poets who sign into our forums, let's also examine what we do that is not working.

Please share your own thoughts here.

I, for one, hesitated on posting this thread, but do agree with some of what the essay alludes to; SOME, not all as you'll soon read for yourself.

Cheers,
~Cleo

[Guest_Xanadu_*]

Wow!

This gave me a lot to think about. The psychological impact of reading this has come on the heels of being called any number of names, as well as having my sanity brought into question on another board. The "collective" has shifted, and I really do not know why. Maybe it is just the times. I honestly do not know. It is wearing me out. I see it reflected in my work. And in my tone. I should be singing that song my mother taught me,...."Nobody loves me. Everybody hates me. I might as well go out in the garden and eat worms." The power of the collective. How could I be so foolish?
I will probably take some time off and go fishing. Yep! Sounds like a plan.

[Cleo_Serapis]

Thanks for your feedback, Linda.

I actually agree with some of what the article infers. Likewise, I also disagree with some of it.

To the inference that poetry communities have rarely produced first-rate poems, I disagree. I know many forum poets who have gone on to have their work published, both online and in print mediums. Are their works first-rate? I guess that question will always be open to interpretation and opinion, as everything in life is.

Does such a culture falsify the poetry experience?
I think there will be many conclusions drawn from this question. It depends on the (overwhelming) culture presented at each board. One needs to answer this question: Is it a vanity forum or a workshop, with a focus for improvement? From my own experiences, not only have I grown in my understanding of the art and all its diverse forms of expression, I've also come to appreciate the poetry, and the poets whose words have touched me emotionally so much more than I would have had I not been part of the forum experience. Of course, there will always be differences in culture. One needs to understand the inner purpose that drives them. Is it there to be a chatroom to make friends? A place to dish out 'atta-boys' to any poem posted no matter how good or bad it is? A culture that demonstrates a like-minded group whose intent is to further the experience by sharing the merits of form and rhythm and all the various tools a poet has at their discretion to express their message in the best way possible? A culture whose focus is solely on nailing down the metrics of a work with no thought given to how that interaction should occur? A culture that rips apart and often deletes threads/comments based on moderator's opinion, rather than the members? A culture where no formal rules are laid out so one can post anything, all the time?

I could go on but I hope you understand my point. For me, you get out what you put in. Demonstrate respect, dignity and a genuine interest in improvement, and hopefully, you'll get the same in return. In many ways, yes, friendships are made, some are lost too, and yes, admins and mods have a role: to make sure the rules of the forum are being followed - it's a bit of policing that must be done, to make the community fair and respectful for all members, especially those who truly have a desire to improve their writing and a willingness to help others improve theirs. If I went to a bookstore, pulled up a chair and started reading, I would gain a more rounded appreciation for the technical merits of poetry, but no where near to the level that I have achieved through online participation.

Common sense suggests that the critic is no more likely to know the nature of good poetry than is the poet. I know of no case in the history of literary criticism where a school of thought has not been superseded eventually by another or taken to task for what it failed to understand. And the suspicion becomes twofold: comments on a poem are often made only to satisfy a required number of commentaries in order to get a poem posted, and critics can, often do, comment in a compensatory, self-serving fashion, or with a bias that frequently disenables their perspective. Add to this the extent to which online critics often do not bother to ground themselves in both the canon of poetry and critical theory, and, again, question of motivation comes into play.

To this, I agree. In order to give an educated critique, one must KNOW THE SUBJECT MATTER. If you do not possess the understanding, say for example, of the parameters of a particular form that the poem was written in or its metrical style, familiarize yourself first before you offer your opinion. At a minimum, focus your efforts on the rhythmic patterns, rhyme schemes, any other poetic devices employed, imagery, content, logical order/flow etc. The poet will appreciate your commentary more if he/she feels you also learned something in the process.

There will always be a mix of both sincere and insincere readers. As the essay points out, one will find those who are clearly devoted to the disciplines of poetry, who possess both the instinct and the hunger for it. At the other spectrum, one will also find those who post responses to poems in a complimentary and generic fashion; products of false praise and encouragement without the supporting evidence of talent and ability. "If poetry is to be taken seriously the inflationary effect of the unwarranted compliment becomes a serious problem."

~Cleo

[Guest_Terreson_*]

Well, folks, I am the guy who wrote the essay that seems to have caused a bit of a stir. Rus Bowden mentioned your link on his Clattery board and so I figured I would take a look at what ya'll do. Hope that is okay.

About my article, writing it caused me a lot of hurt. Its reception has caused considerably more. But the comments made had to be made. I am more than happy to entertain objections to what the essay points out. In the meantime I wouldn't mind finding cyber-spaces where poetry is taken for real.

Terreson.

[Cleo_Serapis]

Hello Terreson and welcome to MM.

Your essay has caused those who've read it, to ponder your points through debate. If I were you, I would be pleased that it is causing such a stir. As with everything in life, people are going to have their own opinions - if we were all to have the same ones, wouldn't life be boring? Hell yes! Perhaps, if you feel hurt by the reactions of your poetic peers, you should consider writing another essay, like sort of a rebuttal to further detail your reasons for why you feel that way about poetry forums?

I agree with you on some of your points, but not all. I'm sure others will think as I do. Not every forum can be labeled the same way, nor can the cultures of each be bucketed into one category. It doesn't work that way, thank god! I think the heart of your essay comes through - do the cultures presented at poetry communities foster the appreciation of the poetry experience? OR, does it falsify that experience? This is a HUGE question and you're likely to get a different answer from each person you ask. Are they wrong? Nope. And keep in mind, depending on what their particular experiences have been, it will undoubtedly be a very 'biased' opinion.

I'm curious, what was it that triggered your interest in writing the essay? You state, "But the comments made had to be made." Why? Reinforce your reasons with supporting data. Or is that what the essay is? After all, it's YOUR opinion, and readers need to keep that in mind.

To break down your points, there's a lot to swallow. I have no problem chatting about each topic below as it relates to this forum, Mosaic Musings.

Notions of Community.
Our board rules are very specific with regard to 'code of conduct'. Our goal is to provide an educational environment in a friendly, relaxed setting, and members know that remarks that steer to the side of being unlawful, harmful, threatening, obscene, abusive, tortuous, defamatory, libelous, hateful, or racially, ethnically or otherwise objectionable are cause to have that member put on a warning (and mod preview status), with said commentary being moved to a private, staff-only forum. Rarely, do we just do that 'on the fly'. Spammers, flamers, trolls are immediately banned. I think your comment about 'be nice' is true to an extent; this forum is designed for poets to exchange their know-how with forms and devices of poetry that they have an expertise in, to enhance the message of another's voice. One must always remember, when you crit a thread, crit the work, not the poet. This is where the heart of 'community' comes into play. We're not going to ban someone off the cuff because they were crass, but it becomes clear pretty quickly what the intent is of those who demonstrate unfriendly, rude and/or insulting mannerisms, and generally the same outcomes end up happening: they piss off the regulars to the point that it does not warrant the need to keep those kinds of exchanges in the public and then they get put on warning or banned.

Poet/Critic Dialogue.
We encourage the exchange of feedback and even have an award system for threads that have more than 25 replies. Having said that, quick one line 'atta-boys' are frowned upon here as that doesn't do anything to help the poet enhance their message, does it? It's a give and take process. I've said this before, you get out what you put in. There is a tendency to offer the same level of criticism that you've received in your own threads. Those that offer light comments, will most likely receive light comments in return, which changes over time and the members get to know each other better. I always have this saying, know the subject, when you choose the poems you will critique. I don't mean, know the message, I mean know the parameters of the form if applicable so you offer something to the poet that they may not know, hence shared learning. We also have some crit tips posted too, things like, title, imagery, rhythms, rhymes, poetic devices, shape, sense of order, all play into crits. Even if one doesn't know a particular form, they can still offer valuable input.

Poetry Boards as Workshops.
This board is NOT based on production, but refinement. We are here to workshop poetry. Vanity poets need to go elsewhere. Period.

The Insincere Reader.
See my previous reply. It doesn't benefit anyone if the reader/commenter isn't sincere. False praise only hurts the poet in the long run. I've heard of cases where someone posted a poem at another board, got lots of false praise, then posted the same here and we were honest about our impressions, which was sincere - the poem needed work. That person was not thrilled that they had received completely opposite remarks depending on the forum they posted in. That doesn't serve the ultimate goal - to enhance the message, furthering the appreciation of poetry.

Anti-intellectual Element.
I agree with you. Poetry must be a felt experience.

Interboard Understanding.
We invite the exchange of ideas. This board is for the members to enjoy, I am here to provide the vehicle.

Board Administrations.
See my previous reply. It is a necessary evil - we police the forum to ensure compliance to board rules. Our staff is not power-hungry, we don't think of ourselves as better than another, pretty much everything I do as admin is done AFTER collaborative exchanges with staff, and members too depending on the situation. No one individual runs the show. Yes, mods do have the power to move a post, and then the staff jointly and collectively determines what happens from there. It's based on the code of conduct.

You're welcome to post your work here as we do take poetry for real. Please keep in mind, we have all levels of poets here at MM. And please - read the forum particpation rules posted in each crit forum to aquaint yourself with them.

Regards,
Lori

[Guest_Terreson_*]

Well, thank you Lori. Both for the welcome and especially for actually bothering to take on the essay, point by point. In the eight days since it got posted you are the first to do so. Some have riffed on the piece, and thoughtfully so, but by and large the response, both on Clattery's blog and on several boards, has been the personal attack. Often by board moderators. Good thing I am thick skinned. On second thought, that I entertain a certain strength of conviction concerning what the essay has to say has also helped.

You ask a good question, wanting to know what incited the article. Specifically, you ask for data. By data I read specifics, which then puts us in the arena of anecdotal information. For pay I work with scientists and they have taught me a big thing. Data never stands on its own, always being subject to interpretation. And even bar graphs can be tweeked to show any statistical bias one wants. So as appealing as it might seem to give out the data I am not sure it would do much good by way of offering evidence. In brief, what incited the article was the experience of almost ten years of online poetry involvement, several of which years being spent as a board moderator, a chat room host, and as sometime mentor and lecturer. I came to the poetry boards pretty wide eyed, like a proverbial kid in the proverbial candy shop. What I have seen since, and on both sides of the mod/member divide, has rather unsettled me. Let me put it this way. I know a beekeeper who, as beekeepers tend to be, is completely devoted to his husbandries. He has been at the art for maybe thirty years. On the topic of modern beekeeping practices, what amounts to factory farming, I once heard him say in exhaustion, "How can you take something so beautiful and turn it to so much s**t?" In just such a frame of mind I wrote my essay.

Having said as much, if you link back to Clattery's blog, scroll down deep into the ensueing conversation you come to where I posit the kind of ideal, free-range environment I figure a poetry board can be. My model is, always has been, the kind of Tuesday night sessions the poet Mallarme held at his home in late 19th C Paris. I also mention Charles Olson and the Black Mountain folk who worked in loose association, working out a certain set of aesthetics. So I haven't given up on the idea. And, of course, all ideals are limited by the fact they are ideals. On the other hand, viewed as models, I think they have value. I'll stick to mine.

Thanks again for the welcome and for the conversation. I've read what you have to say, much of which makes sense. The spirit of all of which comes across in the friendly way. And, yes, before posting poetry and commenting on the same by the others, I will follow standard operating procedures and read the guidelines.

Tere

[Cleo_Serapis]

You're most welcome. I'm only one opinion and for me, the bottom line is to take emotion out of any discussion, and base your response(s) from factual data. You'll never go wrong that way. Sure, people will disagree with you, and that's fine - but facts are facts. No sugar-coating it. It might not be pleasant, but it is what it is. It's like an old detective show where they pitch the phrase, "Just the facts, please." If there isn't enough data to support the points, then the discussion will go awry, hands down. It reminds me of our political contests here in the states - don't get me started on politics! Who do you think has more merit and can (and will) stick to their promises? Who has the most integrity? Who has the least vices? Who will do what is best for our country, not themselves? Everyone has skeletons in their closets.

One must also be open to differing views and suggestions in order to create change. That doesn't mean its OK to insult one another. Maybe I'm just made of a different mold, I dunno, but insults never worked for me. Our society is so acclimated to saying one thing, and doing another, especially on the internet. I often wonder if some of the critters were in a face to face situation, would they act the same way? I'd hedge a bet and say, not likely! There are far more liberties (as demonstrated in the responses to the essay) taken in written form in our age of the world wide web. I would think Chaucer, Shakespeare, Frost, Whitman, Shelly, Poe and all the greats would be rolling in their graves had they been part of our age. As the times change, so does the poetry. As much as I favor the bards of yore, modern poetry is here to stay. We all should re-learn/revisit best practices. Where has chivalry and respect for another gone? Damn if I know, other than it's a sign of the times. That doesn't mean one can't learn to appreciate the experiences they receive in poetry communities, as long as they realize it's not a 'one size fits all' process or environment. Clearly, each board has its own personalities, styles and cliques. I've bailed on a few of them myself and even the inspiration to create MM was because of things that I didn't like or were lacking at other forums when I began to interact in late 2002.

As you might guess, I analyze data in my day job, numbers - I'm the Finance Ops Supervisor of a Call Center. So it's engrained in my brain, LOL! But I do have an affinity for science!

Cheers,
~Cleo

[Guest_Terreson_*]

So, Cleo, let's try this approach. Let's say the essay raises questions based on conclusions drawn on experience. Now let's say you, as reader, answer the questions raised based on the conclusions you yourself have drawn from your own experience. This is pretty much how the brain works anyway, right? For example, in your experience, is there an anti-intellectual element to be found on poetry boards (some boards, a few boards, all boards, no boards)? Or what about this. In your experience are poetry boards subject to a tendancy to place community cohesion first and poetry second? And is Robert Bly right when he speaks of the potentially damaging affect of the collective on the creative personality?

I guess my view is that sometimes it is better to raise questions, even if only by making challenging statements. Reader then compares the questions/statements to her own storehouse of experience and draws her own conclusions. This, at least, is how the essay got designed. This way everyone can draw their own conclusions by referencing their own empirical findings, as you have already done. And thanks again for the input. Actually, thanks for questioning my methodology.

Tere

[Cleo_Serapis]

There will always be ying and a yang pretty much in all experiences we face. Pro or anti intellectual - yes. Cohesion over poetry, perhaps for some boards, mods flaunting their titles, absolutely, but not always.

I've been on both sides, seen all that you've mentioned. Some people were SO beyond cruel that I almost gave up writing altogether, as had some of my good friends. A few were even high-level poets and/or mods elsewhere. Luckily, the passionate, integrity-filled ones talked me into understanding the difference between critiquing to help someone improve the craft and critiquing the person, not the work. There definitely IS a right way and a wrong way to offer a crit, just as there is that gray area inbetween.

It's always easier to view an issue from the comfort of a cushy chair, no?

[jgdittier]

Dear Cleo,
Short and Sweet!
I expect most of us post at several different sites. Also, the piece we post we post at only one spot.
What if we all vowed to post each piece we write at each site?
---even if for a limited time---?
Cheers, Ron jgd

[Cleo_Serapis]

I only belong to MM, Ron as it's all can spend time at. But I'd be curious to hear the 'differences' in the style and type of crits offered on your poems. Perhaps you could try one out? Maybe exclude the commenter's name, but post a reply here with one of your poems posted at other places and then add in the replies - I'm curious to see how they vary.

Go for it!
~Cleo

[AMETHYST]

Hi All,

Due to time constraints I have not read through all of the posts, but just skimmed a few- the title of the thread, "Are Poetry Boards Good FOr Poetry?" brings an immediate "YES" to mind.

My poetic journey is probably many can relate to in one way or another, so as short as I can I will share it.

I loved 'words' when I was very, very young- by kindergarten I was reading, writing in script, and had a great relationship with definitions and understanding the grace of words used poetically. I was about 6 or 7 when I began writing (immature) poems. Simple things, but they rhymed and they were deep in thought for a young kid - I had tons of composition notebooks with dabbles, dribbles of every thought I can have. I wanted to be a writer, a poet and a child psychologist by the time I reach early teens.

By 15, my mom had gotten very sick - I left school just shy of 16 (missing most of my 15th year of school anyway) to take care of my mom during the day and work to meet bills at night. We were not financially stable and life took its course. I never returned to school, I had my daughter, and took care of my mother till she passed in 2001 - The point is, over those years I hadn't the money or time to learn anything. Finally around 1997 or 1998 I got my first real computer and entered into the world of poetry workshops. My first was a private email based critique forum, where I met Bethy and she pointed me to Poemkingdom, where I met life long and life saving friends- That is where I first learned what a ballad was, was introduced to the Sonnet and learned what Iambic, trochee and other meters were. Until online poetry workshops, I hadn't known ANYTHING about poetry - I was nothing more than a vanity poet, writing anything and thinking it was pretty good.

It was through online poetry sites and friends that took the time to 'TEACH ME" how to improve my vanity poetry, how to smooth out the rough spots and who taught me about techniques I otherwise would never, ever have learned. I have met true professional poets who have taken the time to offer their knowledge of terms, techniques, habits and ability that I could see the light in my dreams of becoming a poet. Without on line poetry workshops, I wouldn't know anything about form, tools or possibility. I would say, A Poetry board is good for anyone who is looking to do good with poetry - and that, in the finality of it all - is GOOD FOR POETRY. Without online poetry boards, I would never had read 90 percent of the poets I have been introduced, or learned about far off places and world issues - I would be as ignorant to life as I was to poetry. I believe they are as good for poetry as the member what the member puts in and takes out of them -

As for MM. AFter poemkingdom closed I had become a member of many, many, many various sites. Wetting my feet while looking for the atmostphere that was 'right' for me- ALthough Recently I only post at MM, before my time constraints and illnesses, my primary place of participation and focus was and is MM - but I always found posting a poem after the dust settled and after it received feedback from those who knew me at MM and after revisions settled - I would repost the poem in an approapriate site; Such as A sonnet I wanted to fine tune I would post at Sonnet Central, another place where knowledgable poets took the time to 'teach' me how to create an improved Sonnet; or I would post it at The Critical Poet, where although they knew me, they didn't know me well enough that they would spare my feelings... getting pats on the back doesn't help my poetry - it only gives me a false sense of finished when it isn't.

Well ... Mosaic Musings offers that - They offer feedback and guidance, they offer inspiration and friendships to share this poetic journey and most of all a home atmostphere that always makes you feel you are right where you belong. The poetry is always the main dish on the table with good conversation as a side dish.

Hugs ALl ... Liz

[Guest_ohsteve_*]

Lori and others, A very riviting essay, and replies. I like Lori agree to some of the points that were made on the essay, that politics, and the power of being a moderator become Orwellian. However I agree with things that Elizabeth said also, for without the board experience, how does one find out about form, function, the difference between being a vanity poet and not. How does one even know whether one has talent to write without reader response? Where did the poets find their style, their training etc before the internet? I like Elizabeth and a lot of other posters never had formal training. I would much rather have someone tell me that my poetry needs work/improvement and show me by critique than just tell me "yea I liked it" or as Lori said go beyond cruel and flame you for being an idiot who thought they could write. I have been there done that. I know my own weakness in the ability to critique. But I think the openness and candor that the people here at MM have is by far better than a lot of places.
Steve

[Cleo_Serapis]

Thank you Steve for your thoughts.

I think the bottom line is that every poet/writer has their own objectives and we may not always unite or have the same ones going into it, but at least when the effort to learn is presented, I think it's a win-win for everyone involved.

Lori

[jgdittier]

Dear Cleo,
I do believe poetry boards like MM are good for poetry.
Surely hobbyist poets improving their art benefits poetry.
I do doubt thought poetry boards where the writer, reading positive comments does not benefit if he doubts the sincerity of the commentor.
Cheers, ron jgdittier