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Marc-Andre Germa...
Posted on: Jul 31 09, 11:20


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I would like to express my thanks for all who have been supportive over the few months I've been here at MM. Overall, it has been a pleasant experience. However, it has become clear over the last few weeks that I am at the wrong place. After careful consideration over the last week, I have decided to take my leave.

Good luck to all!

Mark
  Forum: Member Announcements -> Basilica · Post Preview: #116807 · Replies: 1 · Views: 4,772

Marc-Andre Germa...
Posted on: Jul 31 09, 11:14


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Cleo & Snow,

I wanted to drop in and thank you for responding, and for your openness of mind and support. However, I doubt I will ever post at MM again.

Mark
  Forum: ARCHIVES -> Short Form Poetry -> Shogun... · Post Preview: #116806 · Replies: 9 · Views: 16,799

Marc-Andre Germa...
Posted on: Jul 24 09, 06:35


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Peggy, I think you should try a scansion of your own limerick, indicating the syllables you would stress in usual conversation, first the keyword and then the stressed syllable(s) in pollysyllable words.

First, an accentual scan:

A lass in a red tam o'shanter

Then accentual-syllabic:

A lass/ in a / red tam/ o' shan/ter
iamb/phyrric/iamb/iamb (we don't count the feminine ending as a foot in scansion.)

Of course, you most probably meant

a lass/ in a red/ tam o shan/ter
iamb/anapest/anapest

...which works alright in the third foot as the primary stress is on "shan" and "tam" the secondary one...but would you really place the emphasis on "red" and "shan" in normal speech? And aren't most tam o'shanters red? I'd understand the stress, the emphasis, on the colour if it were a more unusual one.

In L3, I'd expect "she will tell", but the way the line scans I take it that you want to put the emphasis on the fact that she will tell a joke....(even though...?)

L5 just won't scan right whatever way we pronounce the line; if you're to use iambs in a limerick, keep them for the first foot of a line only.

I hope this helps,

Mark

  Forum: ARCHIVES -> Short Form Poetry -> Shogun... · Post Preview: #116600 · Replies: 6 · Views: 13,431

Marc-Andre Germa...
Posted on: Jul 24 09, 05:53


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Not bad at all, but do make the effort to make it a concrete poem Pirate.gif

Here's mine:

`1234567890-=\ /*-
qwertyuiop[] 789 +
asdfghjkkll;' 456
zxcvbnm,./ 123
  Forum: ARCHIVES -> Poetry for Crit Prior to 2011 · Post Preview: #116597 · Replies: 25 · Views: 9,180

Marc-Andre Germa...
Posted on: Jul 24 09, 04:54


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John, you've got five stressed beats per line, so it works well as accentual verses. If this fits your muse in the revision, you might want to keep an eye for opportunities to use less-offensive (for lack of a better term) substitutions such as double iambs (phyrric+spondee) instead of anapests, spondees instead of trochees even if that gives you a molossus (three consecutive stressed beats.) These are rhythmic devices that could give you the elbow room you need while maintaining the music (meter.) Again, just a suggestion, take or toss.

Mark
  Forum: ARCHIVES -> Poetry for Crit Prior to 2011 · Post Preview: #116594 · Replies: 25 · Views: 9,180

Marc-Andre Germa...
Posted on: Jul 23 09, 07:16


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John,

Let me quote you here:

"This poem is an Arnfinnian. By doing this I can:

Create my own rhythm.
Use the best words that suit the poem.
Not restricted by formal custom.
Read the poem, over and over, until I get the beat I want."


Nothing new here, this is called free verse. Only, it probably won't be recognised as free verse by many because of the uniform line length and rhymes. This can work as accentual verse or as I was suggesting above, a nonce or open form, i.e. a form created by the author for the purpose of one particular poem, which is what you seem to be doing here.

All that aside, my main issue remains with the opening stanza, namely because of its cliches. The sky-painting imagery is coming near exhaustion, I'd prefer to something new. I'd also change "virgin" for soemething less akin to poetic diction, but that's a minor issue. Many might be thrown off nowadays by the diction you use, but I'm one of those who believe that poetry is the art of language, so I won't suggest you change it. Personally, as long as you avoid such adjectives as "virginal" and "celestial", I'm fine. LOL. I'd also suggest something more specific for "wildlife", even if still a large definition like "fauna."

Otherwise, it all looks good to me. Sound-wise, I prefer the third stanza, the consonants being softer than in the first two stanzas, and more in line with the contents.

I still maintain than forcing a rhyme sea/rhapsody, followed by all solid rhymes has raised in this reader the expectation of (accentual-syllabic) metrical rhymes.

I hope this answers your question.

A wonderful evening to you, mate.

Mark
  Forum: ARCHIVES -> Poetry for Crit Prior to 2011 · Post Preview: #116583 · Replies: 25 · Views: 9,180

Marc-Andre Germa...
Posted on: Jul 22 09, 10:52


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QUOTE (prerna bala @ Jul 22 09, 17:34 ) *
---------------------------------------------------
oops, i just read your self critique of your one liner, but decided to let my dumb- say stay
you said pretty much the same as i did
but then,
anyhow :

robins twitter dancing to the tap of clogs

because the season is dictated by the presence of the robins i guess, wonder what you have to say on this


Hi Prerna,

A good point, I'll consider this. I'm not sure about the gerund in "Robins twitter dancing" (it plods rather heavily, don't you think?) but I guess there could be a better word for "spring." Thanks for the input.

Mark
  Forum: ARCHIVES -> Short Form Poetry -> Shogun... · Post Preview: #116571 · Replies: 9 · Views: 16,799

Marc-Andre Germa...
Posted on: Jul 22 09, 10:44


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G'day Mark,

Much appreciated your in depth assessment of my poem.

>>Good to hear, but....


Firstly I'm going to rewrite L1 on a crit from Dee.

Secondly I made up my own form for this poem, so with that in mind,
it doesn't transcribe to any known accredited form. I do not have the
metre of specific forms: I am not governed by rules. pinkpanther.gif

>>...mate, have you got that deja-vu feeling too?
Pirate.gif

This poem is an Arnfinnian. By doing this I can:

Create my own rhythm.
Use the best words that suit the poem.
Not restricted by formal custom.
Read the poem, over and over, until I get the beat I want.

Most form poetry, restricts by dictated metre what you want to say.

Fixed Form and Rhyming Poetry for Critique -> Herme's Homilies
Post poems that utilize set patterns of rhyme or metrical scheme, stanza formats, and/or refrains. Fixed forms such as Ballades, Blank Verse, Rondeau, Sonnet, Swap Quatrain, Triolet, Villanelle and poems inspired by fixed forms are welcome. Please state the form, metric or rhyme scheme used in your topic description for the benefit of critiquing.

>>Another deja-vu?....and my haibun didn't belong????My "haiku" are contrary to MM policy? Seriously, mate, it's getting hard to think otherwise than that you've been taking a piss at me...


For instance, doen't the word rhapsody set the image of an orchestral painting;
whereas 'music' a tune on a piano. pinkpanther.gif
>>I don't question your choice of the word "rhapsody", but I do question its position. The whole poem uses solid rhymes, in couplets. The opening lines establish the (Arnfinnian) form; why establish it with the weakest rhyme?


Making up your own virgin form sets the poet free to be judged on a new sunrise.

>>Here's where things go wrong though....When you offer any piece of writing, you the author and the reader are forming a contract. As an author, you've got to fulfill the expectations that you lead the reader into, to keep your promise. What you're offering here at first glance is a rhyming poem that is metrical, because all the lines contain approximately the same number of syllable/beats. Three lines are perfectly acceptable as iambic pentameter, though the first of them as a spondaic and a trochaic substitution;

full brush movements; an artists rhapsody,

a virgin gasp directs a new day born,
and blows a cool zephyr that finds my face

You establish a different rhyme in your first line, and I'm intrigued, eager to the second line to see how this will all develop. The second line's meter throws me off though. Variations come in before the rhythm is even established. Which it won't. At the third line, I am frustrated, and at the fourth, I am already wondering whether you actually honour your audience. These were my reactions as a reader at first read, and I couldn't bear it to read it entirely a first time. There was too much regular irregularity from me to derive pleasure from the pulse of your poem. Worse still, I am unable to justify this departure from the norms of reader expectations. In other words, the irregular rhythm doesn't enhance the words in any way. The impression it gave me is that you lacked the ability to write metrically. Which is a shame, really. You've got nice visuals there (though some are cliches) and it's a sad thing to see it diminished by poor technical execution, like a marred painting, or a piano out of tune. Following your thoughts as you've spelled them above, why didn't you write this in free verse? Or why didn't you take the pains to create your actual nonce form?

You don't seem intent to improve the craft and structure of this poem. Why post it to be critiqued?



Two members have advised me that S 3 is weak and not up to the imagery of S1,
and S2.

They are spot on.

>>Well, I'm leaving you in their good hands. As I've written in another response, I can but really help with the craft, the emotional energy etc. is something I can't help you with. I guess there's no need to go into semantic details either...Anyhow, I won't. When you and when another member have challenged me on the craft, I have actually responded discussing the technical aspects in question, and was still expecting for the counter-response...I felt I might be getting into another interesting and educative discussion. You are the third or fourth member who replies that the points in my critiques just don't apply to you, and to your style. ( Whether you actually apply my advice is of course irrelevant here. ) This all I could have helped you with. I have stopped critiquing those other member's work, and I'm not sure if I'll critique yours again. I'm not asking you to agree. But after all that MM conformity and policy bogus, how do you think I feel?

Anyhow, no hard feeling, and good luck with the poem.

Mark

So, I will revise S3.

The main essence for me in poetry, is the words and the reading of poetry.

Creating a bond and understanding between the reader and expression of created beauty, means
more to me, as a poet, than convention.

>>This is the point I've argued above, if nowhere else, this is where I think this version has failed. Sorry I couldn't be of any help.
  Forum: ARCHIVES -> Poetry for Crit Prior to 2011 · Post Preview: #116570 · Replies: 25 · Views: 9,180

Marc-Andre Germa...
Posted on: Jul 22 09, 03:33


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Hi Peggy,

I used to live in Vancouver, almost two decades ago. I live in Thailand now.

Mark
  Forum: ARCHIVES -> Short Form Poetry -> Shogun... · Post Preview: #116560 · Replies: 13 · Views: 20,010

Marc-Andre Germa...
Posted on: Jul 21 09, 21:53


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Peggy,

It's always summer here, but monsoon keeps me indoor.

Have a wonderful trip to Ireland (and Limerick Junction)!

Mark
  Forum: ARCHIVES -> Short Form Poetry -> Shogun... · Post Preview: #116555 · Replies: 13 · Views: 20,010

Marc-Andre Germa...
Posted on: Jul 21 09, 20:52


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Peggy,

The American haiku...I've posted these links on other threads, but you may have missed them:

http://www.hsa-haiku.org/

http://www.modernhaiku.org/essays/AmericanHaikuFuture.html

http://www.ahapoetry.com/haiartjr.htm

Offended? Nope, that's not exactly it. Frustrated, perhaps. Disappointed with the responses received in the last two weeks, yes. I have removed a poem that did not receive any response in eight days, an experimental one which I feel (I might be mistaken here) was probably ignored because it didn't fit into any MM category...I removed a haibun which also didn't appear to have its proper place here. Other posts have become tautologies over terminology with little response (some with none) to the poem I had posted. How would you feel? Frankly, I feel no longer inclined to post my poetry here.

Mark
  Forum: ARCHIVES -> Short Form Poetry -> Shogun... · Post Preview: #116553 · Replies: 13 · Views: 20,010

Marc-Andre Germa...
Posted on: Jul 21 09, 09:10


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Thanks for the visit, Peggy. Nope, I am not advocating rhymes in a haiku. This poodle/noodle is only a joke, which is why I've posted it in a comment rather than giving it its own thread. A response to the actual post of this thread would have been appreciated. Never mind.

Mark

QUOTE (Peggy Carpenter Harwood @ Jul 21 09, 20:59 ) *
Hi marc,

Interesting "poodle/noodle" senryu. If you're going to be true to Japanese tradition on one front, shouldn't you follow through on all fronts? Correct me if you know something I don't, but I believe a rhyme in a haiku/senryu is a "no-no." I did do rather much research on this question last year and came to the conclusion that it is taboo.

Whatcha think?

Peggy
  Forum: ARCHIVES -> Short Form Poetry -> Shogun... · Post Preview: #116537 · Replies: 13 · Views: 20,010

Marc-Andre Germa...
Posted on: Jul 21 09, 06:37


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John,

Thanks for coming back. I'm glad to hear you like this one.

Mark
  Forum: ARCHIVES -> Short Form Poetry -> Shogun... · Post Preview: #116535 · Replies: 13 · Views: 20,010

Marc-Andre Germa...
Posted on: Jul 21 09, 06:20


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QUOTE (Arnfinn @ Jul 21 09, 17:09 ) *
Well, Mark.http://forumimages.mosaicmusings.net/style_images/stone22_2/folder_editor_images/rte-bold.png
Bold

The policy for Haiku at MM is 5/7/5.

I remarked if anyone posted a variation other than the above.

A brief description would be necessary.

I don't think that's unreasonable.

It is an education for all of us.


John


John,

Asking for more information is reasonable enough; this is why I've offered all those links tut.gif

Seeing that the MM policy for haiku is 5/7/5, I guess I'll just stop posting mine here. Is there any other such policy I should be aware of?

You mentioned in another post that there was a place at MM for experimental (avant-gardiste) poetry? Which one would that be? And is there a forum for policy-free forum at MM where we can post non-experimental poetry like American haiku that do not conform to the MM policy go, haibun or prose poetry? Not a vanity show-off thread please, I came to workshop.

As I said above, I took the pain of titling it "American Haiku" to differentiate this from the traditional haiku.

Frankly speaking, John, the more it goes, the less I feel at home here at MM. I've got no complain whatsoever about you or any member here. To the contrary, I think this is a decent forum with a beautiful group of beautiful people. But I'm afraid our views of poetry do not match. Difference is good, and a lot can be learned by exploring them, and I really appreciate that you've engaged into this debate for me. If no one minds, I might stick around for the nice chats. But I'm afraid that little of what I write will conform to MM policies. As an artist, I espouse craft, eschew policy. I welcome all debates on the craft; I couldn't care less for Policy, that enforcerment of conformity.

It's your forum, and your free to moderate it as you like. But these American haiku are probably the last poems I ever post here at MM. And as I came here to workshop, it entails that I will no longer feel inclined to post critiques either. Sometimes, there's nothing left but to agree to disagree. Artist.gif

Before I pack my crayons, I will answer your question about this non-conformist poem Pirate.gif

Namely, why one line?

Let's look at this: spring dance, robins twitter to the taps of clogs

And here I am critiquing my own poem again upside.gif

First, I'll stack it back into three lines:

Spring dance - ........................L1 works fine, the usual kigo
Robins twitter..........................L2 so far so good, besides its non-conformist syllable count.
to the taps of clogs..................to the.....of: this sucks, three weak sounds filling in that short a poem.

Spring dance -
Robins twitter to......................."to" just dangles there.
the taps of clogs

However, I need the three filler words (to, the, of) to avoid pidgin English. The line break bringing in a short pause, the music is loss (the sounds are there alright: twitter, taps). A triple alliteration "twitter to taps" turns the ku (may I call it so here?) into a tongue-twister. By bringing the three fragments, the four successive weak sounds add a rush movement to the lines, without needlessly pausing on them:

spring dance, robins twitter to the taps of clogs
with a natural, mild elevation on the word "to", rather than having an anapestic "to the TAPS" following the weak sound "-ter" of "twitter."

As for the syllable-count, I've placed precedence on the essence of the ku. It has its kigo, "spring." There follows the two juxtaposed images (in a whole American ku, some schools demand two, others three visuals, but never more than that as far as I know of.) The visuals/images are both concrete (robins, clogs) and sensory (twitter, tap.) The "satori" moment is the word "dance."

Yep, I could add words to bloat it up to 5-7-5. But how? Adding another image would overcrowd the ku. Adding an adjective where none is actually needed? Both of these solutions would actually diminish the ku. I could place the robins on a tree, I guess...which would entail a need of an extra prepositional phrase, which is not desirable in any haiku, and certainly not two of them.

Any suggestion about this piece that doesn't dilute it, I'm interested. Artist.gif

Thanks again for the time you've devoted here.

Mark
  Forum: ARCHIVES -> Short Form Poetry -> Shogun... · Post Preview: #116533 · Replies: 9 · Views: 16,799

Marc-Andre Germa...
Posted on: Jul 21 09, 03:26


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John,

Thanks for responding. Where is good question indeed, I guess I could specify a location. Though it's got to be a place where there are oaks and most probably in a rural environment, where there are septic tanks rather than city sewage. I've thought that enough for the reader to pick his/her own such location, assuming the task shouldn't be a hard one for Europeans or North Americans. (Should I change "oak" to something more local, like "magnolia"?) Yep, L2 is disgusting, yep tree roots damaging septic tank is a reality for some, and an unpleasant one too...L3; I don't understand the question when...Go over any Japanese haiku (or even some American haiku, actually). What you will find is a kigo, which translates as season word (ki=season; go=word...yep, I actually speak & read Japanese.) In the summer should be answer enough within the confines of the haiku. Or am I to specify that the roots broke through the thanks at 17:02 GMT?

Why the low syllable-count? Because I am aiming at the concise, minimalist, sparse use of vocabulary, accordingly to the Japanese tradition. If you really want a proper Japanese count, then count your short vowels as one syllable and your long vowels and diphthongs as two syllables...

I'll consider. Thanks for replying (it's the first actual response to a poem posted I've received in a week), it's appreciated.

Mark

Here's a quick one in the 5-7-5, though I guess it will be called a senryu here (a distinction neither the Japanese masters nor the Haiku Society of America makes):

a Chinese couple
mollycoddles its poodle
with instant noodles
  Forum: ARCHIVES -> Short Form Poetry -> Shogun... · Post Preview: #116528 · Replies: 13 · Views: 20,010

Marc-Andre Germa...
Posted on: Jul 21 09, 03:03


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John,

I begin to feel like I am here to critique my own poems...Why don't you tell me what you see in it? An then I could respond...I've posted some helpful links below. I have titled it "an American Haiku" so as not to see yet another thread where we end up debating over "terms" without ever actually workshopping the poem I have posted. Frankly, I hate to say this but I've begun to feel that I am wasting my time here. I've spent a lot of time here critiquing poems in depth (which I gather hasn't always be appreciated) and on the last five poems I've posted (two removed), only one has received an actual response to the poem. And if craft doesn't matter, then I am at the wrong place. I came here to workshop seriously. I understand things being slow. I understand that some members may not have much time to spare due to whatever personal reasons they may have, and I can respect that. But how many members are there here? If nothing else, poetry requires serious dedication. The little I've gained here in the last few weeks doesn't remotely justify the time I've spent critiquing here, offering suggestions etc. I'm disappointed.

Mark


http://www.modernhaiku.org/essays/AmericanHaikuFuture.html

http://www.hsa-haiku.org/

http://www.ahapoetry.com/haiartjr.htm


And while I'm providing links, here are two for the haibun:

http://raysweb.net/haiku/pages/haibun-definition.html

http://poetrylives.com/CHO/
  Forum: ARCHIVES -> Short Form Poetry -> Shogun... · Post Preview: #116527 · Replies: 9 · Views: 16,799

Marc-Andre Germa...
Posted on: Jul 21 09, 00:36


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John, this is bumpy because the meter is too irregular:

DAWN


Sunlight/: yellow /splashes/ atop/ the sea—/
>>That's three trochees followed by two iambs.
full brush /movements; /an ar/tists rhap/sody,/
>>spondee/ trochee/iamb/iamb/phyrric? ..."rhapsody" is a dactyllic word...the opening lines establish the meter/rhythm of the piece; by reading the first foot in L1 as a spondee, I am willing to accept the meter as a nonce form (and delightfully so)

if you make a choice (I vote for the trochee) in the third foot

spondee/ trochee/.....?...../iamb/iamb
spondee/ trochee/.....?..../iamb/iamb

Sea/rhapsody do not make a perfect rhyme, unless with (undue) elevation of the last syllable in "RHAPsoDY"....again, these are the opening lines and you are establishing the rhythmic/metrical structure of your piece. "RHAPsoDY" is sing-songy reading...is that what you want? If you want sing-songy, you'll need to reword the irregular meter in your lines...You've got decisions to make here. Personally, I'd ditch "rhapsody" (at least in this position) and go with accentual verse, at five stressed beats per line (see the other scan below) and go at spondee/trochee/trochee/iamb/iamb/. By the way, three stressed beats are called a molossus; works like a spondee, only more strongly. If you go this way, you'll have a beat to lose in L1. If "sunlight" is a spondee, then you've got six stresses in L1. The second syllable in "atop" needs stress because of the string of weak syllables "SPLA-shes -a-top - the - SEA."


a cover drawn over indigo stairs,
" " " " over in/di go stairs/
>>I read this line as ending with two anapests. Cool rhythm, but the first stanza is metrically too irregular for me the reader to find rhythmical pleasure in it.
the dark/ night van/quished by swa/ddling heirs./
>>iamb/spondee/anapest/iamb.



Here is accentual scan of the same stanza:

Sunlight: yellow splashes atop the sea
full brush movements; an artists rhapsody,
a cover drawn over indigo stairs,
the dark night vanquished by swaddling heirs.


This could be reworked as accentual verse, at say a five beat per line. Going this way, I'd perhaps attempt it at a shorter line length, and I'd use solid, really solid rhymes.


Plenty of examples of accentual verse to be found in Mother Goose, with which imnsho every aspiring poets should be familiar with.

All that said, with a little more regularity, this poem has great rhythmical potential. It just needs the fine-tuning to turn this from a poorly-executed poem to a very fine one. goodjob.gif

I hope this helps.

Mark
  Forum: ARCHIVES -> Poetry for Crit Prior to 2011 · Post Preview: #116521 · Replies: 25 · Views: 9,180

Marc-Andre Germa...
Posted on: Jul 20 09, 06:52


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Alan,

Pondering further over it, "to save our souls" does create an ambiguity, a layer of depth that didn't sink in at first reading.

I like when a piece keeps me thinking.

Mark
  Forum: ARCHIVES -> Poetry for Crit Prior to 2011 · Post Preview: #116492 · Replies: 8 · Views: 4,474

Marc-Andre Germa...
Posted on: Jul 20 09, 06:42


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Alan,

I share Altay's questions here, who are "us" and who are "they". Bombed back into the dark ages...sounds like a line the Iraqis could use.

In response to your comments, words like religious fanatics and terrorists often prove nothing but a question of point-of-view.

As for "we bomb them into the twenty-first", it can be but offensive (quite an assinine statement, actually)to whomever "them" are...Unless you were trying to draw a link between the seventh and twenty-first century, which is not what it looks like to me, it is hard to interpret this piece as anything else but arrogant, war-mongering, contemptuous bigotry.What saves the poem here from being labeled as hate literature (and make it a rather intriguing piece) is the title: "The Road to Hell." Perhaps it's just me, but I think it would be safer to add a little something to distance the author from the narrator, especially because of the uneducated way too many read poetry nowadays, automatically associating the poem with the views of the author. But in the body of poem, what else is there? Perhaps you'd like to make this (clearly) a dramatic monologue. Or at least include one or two elements of humour writing.

Perhaps it's just me.

Also, since you italicise "them", perhaps you should do the same with "us."

I hope it helps.

Mark
  Forum: ARCHIVES -> Poetry for Crit Prior to 2011 · Post Preview: #116491 · Replies: 8 · Views: 4,474

Marc-Andre Germa...
Posted on: Jul 20 09, 05:35


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arid summer -
the oak by the septic tank
dips its roots
  Forum: ARCHIVES -> Short Form Poetry -> Shogun... · Post Preview: #116488 · Replies: 13 · Views: 20,010

Marc-Andre Germa...
Posted on: Jul 20 09, 05:32


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spring dance, robins twitter to the taps of clogs
  Forum: ARCHIVES -> Short Form Poetry -> Shogun... · Post Preview: #116487 · Replies: 9 · Views: 16,799

Marc-Andre Germa...
Posted on: Jul 19 09, 13:21


Assyrian
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Group: Gold Member
Posts: 201
Joined: 28-April 09
From: Canada
Member No.: 784


Hi Altay,

I haven't read Malouf's novel, but I have heard of it and it is on my reading list. For Khayyam, I've got the translation by Peter Avery & John Heath-Stubbs. Fitzgerald's translation is of interest for maintaining the aaba rhyming scheme. Seeing you're interested in Oriental poetry, are you also familiar in the Urdu/Persian ghazal? I have written a few, and I intend to write many more.

Mark
  Forum: ARCHIVES -> Poetry for Crit Prior to 2011 · Post Preview: #116473 · Replies: 26 · Views: 16,118

Marc-Andre Germa...
Posted on: Jul 19 09, 09:12


Assyrian
**

Group: Gold Member
Posts: 201
Joined: 28-April 09
From: Canada
Member No.: 784


Welcome Altay,

Interestingly, I've recommended Khayam and Rumi to you in a different thread before reading this tut.gif

I've got the Avery & Heath-Stubbs translation published by Penguin Books, adorned with Persian painting reproductions. This book is like a precious jewel.

Do you read English & American poets? Who?

Mark
  Forum: Introduce Yourself · Post Preview: #116465 · Replies: 6 · Views: 14,477

Marc-Andre Germa...
Posted on: Jul 18 09, 03:47


Assyrian
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Group: Gold Member
Posts: 201
Joined: 28-April 09
From: Canada
Member No.: 784


Hi Thoth,

Thanks for the visit, glad to hear you have enjoyed it. And thanks for your comments; the feedback is always appreciated, though I'm afraid I must dismiss it almost entirely. I have posted a scan of this piece above, and I welcome you to challenge it. In the meantime, I maintain that this poem is a sonnet. And while I will admit that there are a lot more metrical substitutions than I normally allow myself, I believe the meter is nonetheless acceptable here. I mean, who wants to read 14 lines of pure iambic pentameter with 1- no metrical substitution and 2 - no in-line caesura. Either restriction are fine, but both at the same time won't do for me, I'm afraid. I like metrical poetry; I don't like sing-songy verse. I've responded to your comments below. If you've got more to support your views, I for one will welcome the debate highly.

Mark

QUOTE (Thoth @ Jul 18 09, 02:31 ) *
Hi Mark,

Yes, I agree with the others, this is a particularly excellent read with unusual rhymes and beautiful sumptuous word-strings that roll off the tongue. It is very sensual and tastefully erotic with carefully crafted metaphore.

However English sonnets, (the royalty of verse) need to comply strictly with form and iambic pentameter is simply not negotiable, even falling metre on the last syllable and headless starts. Hard, I agree, the pounding beat of iambic pentameter is sometimes at odds with a romantic scene such as this.

For pure sonnet form, I have a problem with the metre in several places where for me it is clearly not iambic. L1 is the worst case, this is how I scanned it;

L1 “Your magic / irides / , aqua / marines,”
di-DUM-di / di-DUM-di / _-DUM-di / di-DUM
amphibrach / amphibrach / amphibrach / iamb

>>>Both Merriam-Webster and the American Heritage dictionaries give the pronunciation for "irides" with a stress on the first and third syllable. Therefore, L1 scans

Your ma/gic i/rides,/ aqua/marine/
iamb/iamb/iamb/trochee/iamb


Although having ten syllables, this is defiantly amphibrachic tetrameter, even the caesura confirms. There is no way the line can be read iambicly! Caesuras often insert a pause as in this case and must be accounted for in the metre. In some purist circles, midline caesuras are frowned on in the English sonnet and best avoided.

>>>Frowning on caesurae places elsewhere than the line ends? Now I definitely disagree with that one. And who is the poet who wants his poem to be read in such a sing-songy manner?

By the English sonnet, I mean of course the Shakespearian sonnet. Shakespeare did use midline, caesurae, as other masters have done after him; here are the first four lines of sonnet #73:

That time of year thou mayst in me behold
When yellow leaves, or none, or few, do hang
Upon those boughs which shake against the cold,
Bare ruin'd choirs, where late the sweet birds sang.

And here the first three lines of Shelley's Ozymindia:

I met a traveller from an antique land
Who said: Two vast and trunkless legs of stone
Stand in the desert. Near them on the sand,




“your lic/orice-braids/. . . “
Iamb / anapest /

>>>"Licorice" can be pronounced with both two or three syllables. Not necessarily an anapest.

L5 “naja haje.” /I yearn/to chart/ your chapel
Trochee / Trochee / iamb /iamb / amphibrach

>>>The last syllable is called a feminie ending, and is not normally accounted for in the meter. I'll confess to the two trochees.

L3 “with my tongue / in flipp/ant ar/abesques;”
anapest / iamb / iamb /iamb H

This line has only nine syllables and the first foot is anapestic making it a tetrameter.

>>>A headless foot is also common in iambic pentameter. Furthermore, it follow an enjambed femine ending, maintaining the meter; just read it aloud.
x with/my tongue/ in fli/ppant a/rabesques/


L7 mezzo-/soprano /gasps and /tastes of /apple
eleven syllables, leading stress and falling metre end make this line trochaic.

>>I don't see how a trochaic inversion in the first foot makes the whole line trochaic. The line ends with a feminine ending, and should not be accounted for in the scansion/line length.

L13 “do not/ pronounce/ those mot/ions “Lill/iput/ian“,
At least eleven syllables, I count six iambic feet!

>>>Again, referring to both Meriam Webster and the American Heritage dictionaries, "lilliputian" is pronounced in four, not five, syllables: li-lli-pu-tian, and not li-lli-pu-ti-an...If you want to look it up, you'll find many dictionaries listing at www.onelook.com

And so on, I will stop here.
To me this poem is delightful just as it is! The falling metre softens it the right places and the straying from iambic foot breaks the pounding so I would not advise any changes at all, however it will not be a correct English sonnet, rather a sonnet based poem.

I have written many classic form sonnets, some winners and others mediocre but have found more recently that deliberate variations in form sometimes work better for me, allowing more expression. Pure iambic beat is very masculine and can be limiting.

<<If internal caesurae and metrical substitutions make it a sonnet-based poem, let's see a poem I've believed to be sonnet all this while:

Sonnet 29 by William Shakespeare

When, in disgrace with fortune and men's eyes,
I all alone beweep my outcast state
And trouble deaf heaven with my bootless cries
And look upon myself and curse my fate,
Wishing me like to one more rich in hope,
Featured like him, like him with friends possess'd,
Desiring this man's art and that man's scope,
With what I most enjoy contented least;
Yet in these thoughts myself almost despising,
Haply I think on thee, and then my state,
Like to the lark at break of day arising
From sullen earth, sings hymns at heaven's gate;
For thy sweet love remember'd such wealth brings
That then I scorn to change my state with kings.


Believe me, I can supply you with an infinite number of sonnets that will contain some metrical substitutions, in-line caesurae and feminine endings. It might take me longer to find a few good one where none of these are used though.


Anyway Mark, I loved the poem and thank you for contributing such an exciting piece. Congratulations on the award, very well deserved!

I hope the comment is helpful.

Best regards,


Wally

  Forum: ARCHIVES -> Poetry for Crit Prior to 2011 · Post Preview: #116448 · Replies: 26 · Views: 16,118

Marc-Andre Germa...
Posted on: Jul 16 09, 11:48


Assyrian
**

Group: Gold Member
Posts: 201
Joined: 28-April 09
From: Canada
Member No.: 784


Dan, I find this to be an engaging and touching piece. The simple & straightforward tone makes it poignantly honest and sincere. And there are some well-crafted visuals and tropes here. I've added a few comments below. I hope they help.

Mark

QUOTE (Dan Culleton @ Jul 16 09, 19:53 ) *
Awake Alone

I live alone in a room on East Broadway.
>>The address is a good move, I like to know where I am as a reader.
It is raining here and the cold intrudes
upon the remembered warmth of this room.
>>It could be more vivid here, but I'd be careful to preserve the tone of the narrator.

The cold and the silence are your arms reaching for me.
>>This oxymoron line throws me off somewhat, or makes me pause. I'll think that one over.

We came through much together, through many countries.
>>Pure cliche, I'd change the first phrase.
You are in a country now from which there is no escape.
All day I search the faces in the street for some message from you,
no one meets my gaze.
>>Hm, who is the "messenger"? Could this be foreshadowed or be the foreshadow of in another line or two?

There is a cold distance between us now which makes
all of frozen Russia seem a few feet of sun-baked beach.
>>A nice simile, I like it.
All day I wait impatiently at my window for the long black car to arrive,
for the chauffeur, so mute in his black suit,
to hold the door open politely and drive me away.
>>Simple, but effective. Perhaps an extra detail, you know...that one which no one notices but somehow manages to call a whole scene to mind...
All night I grind my teeth in darkness,
and the clock on the dresser grinds
>>Great sound effect here...the clock on the dresser grinds....brilliant move!

which once measured our nights with such speed.
You keep me awake at whose side I slept so soundly.
>>The last two lines round off the poem nicely. Thanks for sharing this excellent read.
  Forum: ARCHIVES -> Poetry for Crit Prior to 2011 · Post Preview: #116434 · Replies: 6 · Views: 2,768

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