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> Forum Changes to Poetry Category, Your feedback welcome!
Guest__*
post Jan 15 05, 18:42
Post #21





Guest






Dear Jox,

You are very kind to say that I am concerned for others. Nope, if I have to figure through this :
If your poem has end rhymes and/or is of a formal poetic style then R & M is the forum..

If your poem has no rhyming end lines or metrical unit (like a quatrain or couplet) and various line lengths and stanza lengths, then it would be a FV post....


every time I want to post, I will be in confusion. Yes, I can sit down and figure it out, but that is hardly simple. It will be a barrier, and it will stop some newer people "daring" in case they get it wrong. Witness those who say they never venture into Socrates, they don't think they could do hard crit, or possibly, unspoken, they don't want hard crit themselves.

I think we are very fortunate on MM to have developed such a "creative" and "caring" crit style that people dare to be exposed to it. If we start expecting people to analyse what they are about to put up, including ME, that is an extra barrier to simplicity.

I would probably for safety simply throw everything into the FV one, in a sense, anything goes, there, so everything goes there !

I admire Lori, who DOES know the difference, and you, who has no problem, you only do FV. But if I look at the last 5 poems I wrote, I'd spend several minutes working out what they were, other than "the best words, in their best order" for effective communication.

Love
Alan
 
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Guest_Jox_*
post Jan 15 05, 18:48
Post #22





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Hi Alan,

Well I do sometimes makes poor attempts at non-freeverse, though I do know the difference because my brain threatens to abandon me for ever when that rare event occurs.

But I jest and I take your point.

Back to thinking. Brain!...

James.
 
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Cleo_Serapis
post Jan 15 05, 18:53
Post #23


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Real Name: Lori Kanter
Writer of: Poetry & Prose
Referred By:Imhotep



Hi Alan!  rainbow.gif

I am going to use a few of your poems here as examples of R & M and FV oif you don't mind...  

A great example of R&M:

ILLUMINATUS
(Words used : mimic laser succumb matrix
hatch human obsess span organic luminous)

Mimic the laser,
get straight to the point,
or succumb to the matrix
and blow up the joint.

Hatch human plots now,
be obsessed by the span
of mankind’s brief lifetime
’fore he’s washed down the pan.

If confined to organic,
you’ll not become numinous;
so forsake all that’s flesh :
free spirit, you’re luminous.

Alan McAlpine Douglas


In the above, you employed a quatrain stanza pattern with a rhyme scheme of ABCB (point/joint) DEFE (span/pan) etc... This is clearly an R & M poem...

This one I would say is FV as there is no rhyme patterns:

BEHOLDEN

Behold and wonder that a simple freckle
could cause this wintry frost
to envelope my entire life;

a lapse, barely a dot in time
never even logged in the dust
that passes for history :

how could I know when serenading
this perfect beauty spot,
as beholden by my eye,

that it is the one feature
that mars the perfection,
as seen by her beholder ....

Alan McAlpine Douglas

(wonder simple freckle wintry frost
lapse dot log dust serenade)


Another R&M:

ABSOLUTE HELL

The weatherman will cheerily tell
of absolutely freezing hell,
but really he has no idea
of coldest winner, true and clear.

The prof’s theory is absolute,
world’s central heating’s up the chute,
on minus scale, absolute zero;
makes of him a “Science Hero”.

Come on guys, all your fine theories
have it wrong, how my mind wearies;
think big, absolutely bolder :
the coldest thing is ...
                      ... her cold shoulder.

Alan McAlpine Douglas



Does this help?
detective.gif  cheer.gif  8ball.gif


·······IPB·······

"It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step into the Road, and if you don't keep your feet, there is no knowing where you might be swept off to." ~ J.R.R Tolkien, The Lord of the Rings

Collaboration feeds innovation. In the spirit of workshopping, please revisit those threads you've critiqued to see if the author has incorporated your ideas, or requests further feedback from you. In addition, reciprocate with those who've responded to you in kind.

"I believe it is the act of remembrance, long after our bones have turned to dust, to be the true essence of an afterlife." ~ Lorraine M. Kanter

Nominate a poem for the InterBoard Poetry Competition by taking into careful consideration those poems you feel would best represent Mosaic Musings. For details, click into the IBPC nomination forum. Did that poem just captivate you? Nominate it for the Faery award today! If perfection of form allured your muse, propose the Crown Jewels award. For more information, click here!

"Worry looks around, Sorry looks back, Faith looks up." ~ Early detection can save your life.

MM Award Winner
 
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Cleo_Serapis
post Jan 15 05, 19:15
Post #24


Mosaic Master
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Group: Administrator
Posts: 18,891
Joined: 1-August 03
From: Massachusetts
Member No.: 2
Real Name: Lori Kanter
Writer of: Poetry & Prose
Referred By:Imhotep



Another example is with my poem "A Visitation to Valor" in Homers..

Even though I have employed alliteration, I did not use any type of form poetry OR rhyming words/end lines so this is considered a FV....


·······IPB·······

"It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step into the Road, and if you don't keep your feet, there is no knowing where you might be swept off to." ~ J.R.R Tolkien, The Lord of the Rings

Collaboration feeds innovation. In the spirit of workshopping, please revisit those threads you've critiqued to see if the author has incorporated your ideas, or requests further feedback from you. In addition, reciprocate with those who've responded to you in kind.

"I believe it is the act of remembrance, long after our bones have turned to dust, to be the true essence of an afterlife." ~ Lorraine M. Kanter

Nominate a poem for the InterBoard Poetry Competition by taking into careful consideration those poems you feel would best represent Mosaic Musings. For details, click into the IBPC nomination forum. Did that poem just captivate you? Nominate it for the Faery award today! If perfection of form allured your muse, propose the Crown Jewels award. For more information, click here!

"Worry looks around, Sorry looks back, Faith looks up." ~ Early detection can save your life.

MM Award Winner
 
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jgdittier
post Jan 15 05, 21:24
Post #25


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Posts: 1,802
Joined: 24-April 04
From: Connecticut
Member No.: 58
Real Name: Ron Jones
Writer of: Poetry



Dear All,
I was a "cousin" at POEMS place, now defunct. We were limited to  verse which was intentionally planned to require  an established (general) metre. Thus rhyme became of no consequence. The term "form" simply meant the verse exhibited in the mind of the writer an effort at relatively repetitive cadence. What was/is called blank verse qualified, types of verse which did not require an effort to establish a pleasant cadence in the work did not qualify.
There are now types of "form" poetry that have strict guidelines but do not require cadence or rhyme, some based on appearance. I believe at MM there is insufficient of them to justify a separate section and that all poetry types which have a formal name and definition but do not require controlled meter could be placed arbitrary in either section.
Cheers,   jgd


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Ron Jones

MM Award Winner
 
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Guest_Toumai_*
post Jan 16 05, 04:35
Post #26





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I'm enjoying MM so much - a friendly, helpful site.  :cloud9:

BUT ... I'm not sure I'd have dared join (even with James's encouragement)  if I had to 'formally analyse' my work before posting. And, as I said before, there are those of us who are 'beginners' who may be detered from venturing into any strict 'form' if it is a separate forum ...

On the other hand, maybe, with such careful crits and wonderful versers, MM is more suited to 'experienced' poets (erm ... Alan?).

I have a nasty feeling I'm muddying the waters, but hopefully something useful will eventually flow out of this discussion.  :pharoah2

Love to all,
Fran
 
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Guest_Jox_*
post Jan 16 05, 05:09
Post #27





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Hi Ron,

I think you'll find there are a lot of rhyming and form poems on MM. I would think (rough estimate) 40-50%.

Hi Fran,

Interesting comments - hitherto you have written freeverse but would you really not know if you rhymed a poem or set-about to write in a form (if you're like me (!) you'd have to carefully check every step to write in form, anyway. I know when I've written in form because I've had to be so careful then get things wrong and then cannot say things quite as I wish.

Nevertheless, the last thing we wish to do is to erect additional barriers to new-comers. Ironically, my original PM to Lori was about reducing barriers because of things potential members (existing BBCGW members) have said to me. Lori is trying to reduce and simplify the forums.

To all:

Many people are saying that the proposals are not good enough; thank you for your comments - they are useful. Given the present Homer's / Socrates system is not working (and it isn't) are there any positive suggestions out there? (Alan has submitted one already - any more?)

James.
 
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Cleo_Serapis
post Jan 16 05, 08:22
Post #28


Mosaic Master
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Group: Administrator
Posts: 18,891
Joined: 1-August 03
From: Massachusetts
Member No.: 2
Real Name: Lori Kanter
Writer of: Poetry & Prose
Referred By:Imhotep



I think it will fall into place once we start the change. I understand that everyone acepts change differently - but I really believe that once each of us sees the forums in action, it will become a simple thing. I for one can always move posts if they do not 'fit' into the forum posted as well as the other mods here in the event that happens too - we are all flexible and I hope can adapt in time.

I will now post some definitions of R & M and FV - maybe this will help? Idea.gif


From Bob's Byway:

RHYME - The "R" in R & M...

In the specific sense, a type of echoing (the repetition of particular sounds, syllables, words or lines in poetry)  which utilizes a correspondence of sound in the final accented vowels.

In a broader poetic sense, however, rhyme refers to a close similarity of sound as well as an exact correspondence; it includes the agreement of vowel sounds in assonance and the repetition of consonant sounds in consonance and alliteration. Usually, but not always, rhymes occur at the ends of lines.

Sidelight: Differences as well as identity in sound echoes between words contribute to the euphonic effect, stimulate intellectual appreciation, and serve to unify a poem. In addition, rhymes tend to heighten the significance of the words, provide a powerful mnemonic device, and complement the rhythmic quality of the lines.

Sidelight: Terms like near rhyme, half rhyme, and perfect rhyme function to distinguish between the types of rhyme without prejudicial intent and should not be interpreted as expressions of value.

Sidelight: Early examples of English poetry used alliterative verse instead of rhyme. The use of rhyme in the end words of verse originally arose to compensate for the sometimes unsatisfactory quality of rhythm within the lines; variations in the patterns of rhyme schemes then became functional in defining diverse stanza forms, such as, ottava rima, rhyme royal, terza rima, the Spenserian stanza, and others. Rhyme schemes are also significant factors in the definitions of whole poems, such as ballade, limerick, rondeau, sonnet, triolet, and villanelle.

METER or METRE - the "M" in R&M...

A measure of *rhythmic quantity;the organized succession of groups of syllables at basically regular intervals in a line of poetry, according to definite metrical patterns. In classic Greek and Latin versification, meter depended on the way long and short syllables were arranged to succeed one another, but in English the distinction is between accented and unaccented syllables. The unit of meter is the foot.

Metrical lines are named for the constituent foot and for the number of feet in the line: monometer (1), dimeter (2), trimeter (3), tetrameter (4), pentameter (5), hexameter (6), heptameter (7), and octameter (8); thus, a line containing five iambic feet, for example, would be called iambic pentameter. Rarely does a metrical line exceed six feet.
The metrical element of sound makes a valuable contribution to the mood and total effect of a poem.

Sidelight: In the composition of verse, poets sometimes make deviations from the systematic metrical patterns. This is often desirable because (1) variations will avoid the mechanical "te-dum, te-dum" monotony of a too-regular rhythm and (2) changes in the metrical pattern are an effective way to emphasize or reinforce meaning in the content. These variations are introduced by substituting different feet at places within a line. (Poets can also employ a caesura, use run-on lines and vary the degrees of accent by skillful word selection to modify the rhythmic pattern, a process called modulation. Accents heightened by semantic emphasis also provide diversity.) A proficient writer of poetry, therefore, is not a slave to the dictates of metrics, but neither should the poet stray so far from the meter as to lose the musical value or emotional potential of rhythmical repetition. Of course, in modern free verse, meter has become either irregular or non-existent.

Sidelight: Generally speaking, it is advisable for poets to delay the introduction of metrical variations until the ear of the reader has had time to become accustomed to the basic rhythmic pattern.

Sidelight: In music, the term, rubato, refers to rhythmic variations from the written score applied in the performance.

*Rhythmic - the regular or progressive pattern of recurrent accents in the flow of a poem as determined by the arses and theses of the metrical feet, i.e., the rise and fall of stress. The measure of rhythmic quantity is the meter.

Sidelight: A rhythmic pattern in which the accent falls on the final syllable of each foot, as in the iamb or anapest, is called a rising or ascending rhythm; a rhythmic pattern with the accent occurring on the first syllable of each foot, as in the dactyl or trochee, is a falling or descending rhythm.


FREE VERSE

A fluid form which conforms to no set rules of traditional versification. The free in free verse refers to the freedom from fixed patterns of meter and rhyme,but writers of free verse employ familiar poetic devices such as assonance, alliteration, imagery, caesura, figures of speech etc., and their rhythmic effects are dependent on the syllabic cadences emerging from the context. The term is often used in its French language form, vers libre. Walt Whitman's "By the Bivouac's Fitful Flame," is an example of a poem written in free verse.

Sidelight: Although as ancient as Anglo-Saxon verse, free verse was first employed "officially" by French poets of the Symbolist movement and became the prevailing poetic form at the climax of Romanticism. In the 20th century it was the chosen medium of the Imagists and was widely adopted by American and English poets.

Sidelight: One of the characteristics that distinguish free verse from rhythmical prose is that free verse has line breaks which divide the content into uneven rhythmical units. The liberation from metrical regularity allows the poet to select line breaks appropriate to the intended sense of the text, as well as to shape the white space on the page for visual effect.

Sidelight: Free verse enjoys a greater potential for visual arrangement than is possible in metrical verse. Free verse poets can structure the relationships between white space and textual elements to indicate pause, distance, silence, emotion, and other effects.

Sidelight: Poorly written free verse can be viewed simply as prose with arbitrary line breaks. Well-written free verse can approach a proximity to the representation of living experience.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language: Fourth Edition.  2000.
 
METER1
 
SYLLABICATION: me·ter
PRONUNCIATION:   mtr
NOUN: 1a. The measured arrangement of words in poetry, as by accentual rhythm, syllabic quantity, or the number of syllables in a line. b. A particular arrangement of words in poetry, such as iambic pentameter, determined by the kind and number of metrical units in a line. c. The rhythmic pattern of a stanza, determined by the kind and number of lines. 2. Music a. Division into measures or bars. b. A specific rhythm determined by the number of beats and the time value assigned to each note in a measure.  

The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language: Fourth Edition.  2000.
 
PERFECT RHYME
 
NOUN: 1. Rhyme in which the final accented vowel and all succeeding consonants or syllables are identical, while the preceding consonants are different, for example, great, late; rider, beside her; dutiful, unbeautiful. Also called full rhyme, true rhyme. 2. Rime riche.

The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language: Fourth Edition.  2000.
 
FREE VERSE
 
NOUN: Verse composed of variable, usually unrhymed lines having no fixed metrical pattern.  






·······IPB·······

"It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step into the Road, and if you don't keep your feet, there is no knowing where you might be swept off to." ~ J.R.R Tolkien, The Lord of the Rings

Collaboration feeds innovation. In the spirit of workshopping, please revisit those threads you've critiqued to see if the author has incorporated your ideas, or requests further feedback from you. In addition, reciprocate with those who've responded to you in kind.

"I believe it is the act of remembrance, long after our bones have turned to dust, to be the true essence of an afterlife." ~ Lorraine M. Kanter

Nominate a poem for the InterBoard Poetry Competition by taking into careful consideration those poems you feel would best represent Mosaic Musings. For details, click into the IBPC nomination forum. Did that poem just captivate you? Nominate it for the Faery award today! If perfection of form allured your muse, propose the Crown Jewels award. For more information, click here!

"Worry looks around, Sorry looks back, Faith looks up." ~ Early detection can save your life.

MM Award Winner
 
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Guest_Jox_*
post Jan 16 05, 09:16
Post #29





Guest






Hi all,

I think the information / definitions which Lori has posted are fascinating and useful. However, they are only there to answer various questions which have emerged. No one should become "hung-up" on them - as Lori says, postings can be moved if necessary and no one is committing a crime by being wrong in their posting.

But having freeverse / freeform on one forum and all forms of pre-arrangement on another - form and verse does seem an easy division to me... far easier, in fact, than deciding if one would like a complex or mild crit - and then being surprised by the response.

Essentially, if you didn't have a form in mind when you wrote it and it doesn't rhyme then it is freeform. You are most unlikely to stumble into form or rhyme by accident - it takes quite an effort.

James.

P.S. I think that's the first time I've started a paragraph with "but". Good to break the rules sometimes!
 
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Guest__*
post Jan 16 05, 09:17
Post #30





Guest






Dear Cleo,

Experienced as I might be in writing verse, I do so from a "this is a communication" angle, rather than any knowledge of the mechanicals.

The above post full of what I presume is excellent definitions just made me want to run away, rather than absorb all those words.

And yes, now that you print up my poems with a statement of what they are, I can stop and recognise rhyme from the other, but I am not looking forward to having to apply any kind of analysis other than "Are these the best words" to my work.

Bear in mind that you set out to sort a non-functioning system. Be sure that what you put in works better than the old one.

Love
Alan
 
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Cleo_Serapis
post Jan 16 05, 09:58
Post #31


Mosaic Master
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Group: Administrator
Posts: 18,891
Joined: 1-August 03
From: Massachusetts
Member No.: 2
Real Name: Lori Kanter
Writer of: Poetry & Prose
Referred By:Imhotep



Hi Alan.  :rainbow:

I DO appreciate your words and hesitation of our changes to MM. How else would I know if things are working as well as they should and can be? Idea.gif detective.gif

I've heard privately from many of our excellent (both inexperienced and experienced) writers over the past several months regarding confusion over the existing structure.

The initial questions were mostly geared towards 'What is the difference between mild & complex crit?" After posting and interacting with our members, it seems that ALL our critiques are moderate. This forced less folks to post at Socrates and more to post at Homers because, frankly, most hang out in Homers and posts there receive more reads and replies. One can see this by the number of Wizard Awards won at both.  :pharoah2

The questions then started to shift from critique methods to form. For our members who are dedicated to one or the other, it became 'more difficult'  and 'more time consuming' to a degree to select the posts to respond to as per our forum rules of 2 crits per each post.  Part of that stems from the sheer amount of posts in Homers (its popularity).  :grinning: Seriously, I hear this very often via PM and email. We've actually lost some members too.  :oops:

So.... what I've done today is add two new forums here in the Poisedon's Poetry category, Hermia's Homilies (For R & M and FIXED FORM Poetry for Critique)  and Seren's Synapse (For Free Verse Poetry for Critique). I haven't made Homers and Socrates 'member only' yet nor have I changed them to read and reply only just yet.

I will do that once I've sent out a PM to our members explaining the changes. I AM going to go into Homers and Socrates now and 'move' those posts started in January 2005 into one or the other new forums.

I can only see that this change will better MM - and if after a few weeks time Or a month or two, it isn't working, I am ALWAYS open to change and ideas. GroupHug.gif

I hope this is acceptable to all...

Regards.
Cleo  :cheer:




·······IPB·······

"It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step into the Road, and if you don't keep your feet, there is no knowing where you might be swept off to." ~ J.R.R Tolkien, The Lord of the Rings

Collaboration feeds innovation. In the spirit of workshopping, please revisit those threads you've critiqued to see if the author has incorporated your ideas, or requests further feedback from you. In addition, reciprocate with those who've responded to you in kind.

"I believe it is the act of remembrance, long after our bones have turned to dust, to be the true essence of an afterlife." ~ Lorraine M. Kanter

Nominate a poem for the InterBoard Poetry Competition by taking into careful consideration those poems you feel would best represent Mosaic Musings. For details, click into the IBPC nomination forum. Did that poem just captivate you? Nominate it for the Faery award today! If perfection of form allured your muse, propose the Crown Jewels award. For more information, click here!

"Worry looks around, Sorry looks back, Faith looks up." ~ Early detection can save your life.

MM Award Winner
 
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Cleo_Serapis
post Feb 26 05, 09:51
Post #32


Mosaic Master
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Group: Administrator
Posts: 18,891
Joined: 1-August 03
From: Massachusetts
Member No.: 2
Real Name: Lori Kanter
Writer of: Poetry & Prose
Referred By:Imhotep



Slight name change on Hermia's forum to Herme's (two syllables much easier)! laugh.gif


·······IPB·······

"It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step into the Road, and if you don't keep your feet, there is no knowing where you might be swept off to." ~ J.R.R Tolkien, The Lord of the Rings

Collaboration feeds innovation. In the spirit of workshopping, please revisit those threads you've critiqued to see if the author has incorporated your ideas, or requests further feedback from you. In addition, reciprocate with those who've responded to you in kind.

"I believe it is the act of remembrance, long after our bones have turned to dust, to be the true essence of an afterlife." ~ Lorraine M. Kanter

Nominate a poem for the InterBoard Poetry Competition by taking into careful consideration those poems you feel would best represent Mosaic Musings. For details, click into the IBPC nomination forum. Did that poem just captivate you? Nominate it for the Faery award today! If perfection of form allured your muse, propose the Crown Jewels award. For more information, click here!

"Worry looks around, Sorry looks back, Faith looks up." ~ Early detection can save your life.

MM Award Winner
 
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