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Mosaic Musings...interactive poetry reviews _ Suggestions for Improvement -> Cuneiform Chronicles _ Forum Changes to Poetry Category
Posted by: Cleo_Serapis Jan 15 05, 10:04
Hello everyone reading this tile! 
A while ago, James and I had a conversation regarding site navigation and forum layout. James has kindly mentioned this topic to me again this morning which I believe has great merit and will summarize here in the thread. 
New visitors to MM often times get overwhelmed by all the forum offerings (mostly in the Poetry area). I've just made one merge a few minutes ago for the less frequented forum "Garden of Eden" formerly for polished works - not for critique. I have taken all the posts in there and merged them into "Plato's Pearls of Wisdom" and slightly re-worded the forum description. Now, the new and improved forum shall be used as follows:
Plato's Pearls of Wisdom (Exhibition - NOT for Critique)
Posts in this forum are for exhibition and polished works only. Post here only when poet feels their work is polished or does not seek a critique. Thanks for adding tiles to our Mosaic! All forms of poetry are welcome in this forum.
The 1:3:2 rule applies here. See forum rules for more details.
I am also planning to have also merged Punner's Paradise (Comedic Themes), and The Fountain of Youth (Youthful Themes) into Angkor Wat Accolades (Seasonal Works) and re-worded it as 'Themed Works - Not for Critique'.
Now for the REAL challenge:
We would like to CHANGE the format of Homer's Homilies (Poetry for GENTLE Critique) AND Socrates’ Synapse (Poetry for COMPLEX Critique).
Most of our writers already provide a complex or thorough critique to those posts in Homers. Questions have arisen with regard to Socrates. To quote James (Jox):
I am in agreement with James' idea in that I would like make a change to both forums and do away with a 'gentle' verses 'complex' critique division. 
The idea is to change Homers to be a 'structured R & M (form) poetry' forum and Socrates to a 'non-structured (freeform) poetry' forum.
If our members agree, it will take me a while to move the posts accordingly between Homers and Socrates but all in all, I like the sound 
and beat 
of this idea and I feel it would be an improvement to MM's forum board.
On a second note, I would also like to begin a forum for external competitions offered elsewhere on the Internet - perhaps within Incan Inversions?
Any suggestions and referals are most welcome!
Your feedback is appreciated all! 
Cheers! 
~Cleo 
Posted by: Toumai Jan 15 05, 11:17
Hi Cleo,
MM certainly is a little daunting at first glance, but with familiarity it is far easier (and much quicker) to navigate than some sites.
It would seem like an excellent idea to combine some of the lesser-used forums.
As regards changing Homers and Socrates I cannot comment, except that in my brief glance at the latter the crits do not seem to be much different than in the former, at least to my inexperienced eye.
My natural home would currently be in freeform poetry, but I think that we can all learn, so I am not so sure about separating form and non-form - lest I become too nervous to ever visit the latter.
Those are my first thoughts on this.
Regards,
Fran
Posted by: Jox Jan 15 05, 11:26
Hi,
Scientific Poem Competition -
Sorry about this but:
Entries must be submitted by the poet themselves who must be resident in the UK and Republic of Ireland. (I think that is UK OR ROI - I don't think we have to have two houses in two countries to qualify).
Deadline: 11th February 2005 - 17:00 hrs GMT (5pm)
--------------------------------------------------------
I saw this item in The Times (London), today...
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-1438764,00.html
(worth reading - contains Sir Patrick's Moor's "Futility" (Title same as Wilfred Owen's famous poem). This poem has references to brussles sprouts and snow - from one of Britain's most famous polymaths. So I feel I'm on the right track!)
Here is the relevant web page:
http://www.the-ba.net/the-ba/News/_UniverseCompetition.htm
Posted by: Jan 15 05, 13:50
Dear Cleo,
Suddenly, I KNOW why MM site navigation is so hard !
On many poetry sites, eg Poem train, the MAIN group heading AND the sub headings AND the description/instructs are all visible at the same time, while here, we only have the MAIN HEADING, then we have to click and search the sub-headings separately.
The nearest we get to a full, easy-to-follow listing is the "Forum Jump" place, where there is a bare skeletal version, of headings only, of what Poem Train supplies in its main listings.
I've been here since nearly day 1, and I was lost the other day trying to find where the archives were hidden !
Cleo, have a look at Poem Train at http://www.poemtrain.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi
to see what I mean.
As to amending Homer & Socrates, I agree that the level of crit is pretty damn good, and deep, in both, and have noted that the amount of traffic in Soc is derisory.
My only problem with the proposed change is, I can't say that I know what is a structed or form poem from a not- one !
Would Homer be strictly for vilanelles, sonnets, haiku and limericks (etc) ? Or would any say 4-line x 4 poem qualify ? Rhymed or not ? Opportunities for more confusion, I'd say.
My way to go would be to have 3 separate AND EQUAL posting forums, A, B and C, so that prolific poets like Jox and Cleo and me could in effect rotate them, and post one poem a day. I have to confess I have found it frustrating to have to wait 3 days to post another, when I might have written 4 in a day, and going to the present Soc has not worked because of the low traffic volume, caused I think by other poets' trepidation re the heavy crit rules. So barely any crit there at all.
If we had 3 equal fora (um, is that right ? ) then we would also avoid slap on the wrist situations where a poem is deemed to be in the "wrong" one ! (Cuz my wrists hurt easy). Thus we simplify even more.
We could run a comp to name the new ABC fora, say Archimedes, Boccaccio and Copernicus ?
Love
Alan (profesional simpleton)
Posted by: Nina Jan 15 05, 16:17
Hi Cleo
It does seem a good idea to combine some of the lesser used forums.
Being new to the site, I haven't yet worked out the difference between Homer's gentle crit and Socrates complex one except to say that the words complex critique means it is quite a daunting prospect to post there. I am not very adventurous and tend to stick to just the one forum - Homer's, which I get a lot of enjoyment form.
Like Alan, I do not know what is a form poem and what is not, so I wouldn't be sure where to post
Nina
Posted by: Jox Jan 15 05, 16:29
Hi all & Lori, Alan, Nina,
The division into form / non-form was my way of trying to make the poetry section work better. In many ways, the ideal would be just one forum for poetry. However, that would mean too many poems in one forum - they would disappear too quickly; many with inadequate crit.
So suggestions for divisions within poetry crit are needed. Alan has made some interesting ones which seem very worthy of consideration; though there are problems with that suggestion too, of course. ("Of course," because nothing will be perfect - just looking for best possible improvement).
I'm going over to look at the place Alan suggested and to think about that.
What do others think please? Any other solutions?
James.
========================================================
PS Alan - just been to poet train and couldn't understand anything there at all. Are you a member because, certainly as a non-member I couldn't get anywhere. Seemed quite depressing - never found any of the forums ???
James.
Posted by: Cleo_Serapis Jan 15 05, 17:06
Thanks all so far for your responses!
I've also heard privately from a few other members and perhaps what they've written to me may make more sense regarding a new division of Homers and Socrates?
Homers would be the place for R & M (rhyme & meter) poetry. This would include formal types of poetry like haiku, rondeau, sonnets, villanelles, pantoums, cinquains etc... as well as simple rhyming poems in the form of couplets or quatrains.
Socrates would be the place for FV (free verse) poetry. This would include those poems where there are no rhymed lines, patterns or formal poetic styles applied.
In both forums, the same rules of critique would apply. One member suggests that we create a star system or something along those lines so the writers can designate the level of crit they desire from a scale of 1,2 and 3 stars (for example) ~ mild, moderate and complex.
I'd still keep the same forum rules though 1:3:2 (sorry Alan), and am considering an 'archive' of the current posts in Homers and Socrates so we start fresh again....
What do you think?
P.S. Alan - I also could not access Poem Train since I am not a member there.
~Cleo :pharoah2
Posted by: Jox Jan 15 05, 17:17
Lori...
That makes things simpler. A slight problem, though. What about hybrid poems where parts rhyme and parts don't... I would suggest that is within the spirit of free verse - i.e. not a "proper" rhyme scheme so ought to go in with FreeVerse. Make sense? (These do exist - I have a few on MM already).
Tha archive is essential - without it the start will be very muddy and no one can sensibly plot through 1,000 + poems to sort them. An archive allows comment etc as an active forum would and, if we're desperate to pull an old poem out it will go to the top of the pile, so be seen anyway on the new postings list. We could even bring old poems into the new forum if we wanted more advice - so nothing lost at all. A fresh start would be ideal I think.
James.
Posted by: Cleo_Serapis Jan 15 05, 17:44
Hello James.
Yes - that seems fair - partial rhyme would still be considered FV if no metrical pattern exists otherwise...
Regarding the archiving: I would most likely lose Homers and Socrates as the posting forums (perhaps use Alan's ideas for naming the TWO forums? As you can see - I like to use words starting with same letters.
Maybe in starting 'FRESH' I would move back all the posts started in 2005 January so there are some poems to start with?
I would make the 'archive' forum for MEMBERS only as well... And YES, anyone could still go in them and comment/crit existing posts but I would restrict the archive forum(s) so no 'New Topics' could be started in them. This would remind members to go into the new Homers and Socrates for New Topic postings and reserve the old ones for comments only.....
Sound good?
~Cleo
Posted by: Jox Jan 15 05, 17:50
Sounds excellent.
Why not restrict "starting" posts to 2005 (i.e. Jan). That seems an ideal new start. We're already two weeks in and most poems start sinking within that time anyway (although the new system might actually give them greater longevity because Homer's will be under much reduced pressure).
"Yes - that seems fair - partial rhyme would still be considered FV if no metrical pattern exists otherwise..."
To be parochical that would certainly suit me - I haven't yet been accused of employing any metrical pattern (I'm still working in yards).
Members only archives and no new threads / tiles would be essential, else we'll start tripping up over the archives.
James.
Posted by: Jan 15 05, 17:54
Dear Cleo and Jox,
I'm bothered by making posting rules based upon poetry-technical criteria.
I know this is laughable, but, rather like I speak English quite well from long practise, experience and innate "nous", thus with poetry.
As an example, here is a phrase from Jox's last post :
partial rhyme would still be considered FV if no metrical pattern exists otherwise...
Huh ?
I can guarantee that I will make mistakes, or that I and others will be so uncertain that some will not post much at all. Many poets write "from the heart", not from a text-book, and I and many others pick up some of these details of knowledge, form etc through crits on places like MM, ONCE WE HAVE DARED POST.
This is a plea for simplicity. At least easy/hard crit was simple ! And most plumped for easy.
Love
Alan
Posted by: Jox Jan 15 05, 18:01
Hi Alan, actually that was a quote from Lori's post above mine.
But I see your point. emm??? Thinking... (may take some time!)
James.
OK, Lori, in that specific case was answering my question about poems which partially rhyme and partially don't. Nevertheless, that does not address your real point.
Posted by: Jan 15 05, 18:05
Dear Jox,
My point in essence :
Do I want simple or harsh crit - um, the first. Easy choice.
Did I write metrical (whatever that is) a form (I knew only a few, mainly obscure Welsh ones ! ) rhymed, trochaic, blunderbussed, where do I post this , er um, ah fergeddit.
Love
Alan
I still think 3 fora for all would work, no decision, easy peasy.
Posted by: Cleo_Serapis Jan 15 05, 18:05
Potential NEW forum names for FV poetry:
Hadrian's Homiles
Hannibal's Homiles
Hermia's Homiles
Hydra's Homiles
Ptolemy's Perusings
Potential NEW forum names for R & M poetry:
Sargon's Synapse
Spartacus' Synapse
Seren's Synapse
Napolean's Synapse or someting with an "s"
Posted by: Jox Jan 15 05, 18:09
Hi Alan,
Sorry - yes, I understood your point very well. I just don't have a reply for you. Still thinking. Sorry, takes ages. Lori any comment?
James.
Posted by: Cleo_Serapis Jan 15 05, 18:11
Oops!
Now you two have been busy posting whilst I type, tap tap.... 
AS to R & M - simple: If your poem has end rhymes and/or is of a formal poetic style then R & M is the forum..
If your poem has no rhyming end lines or metrical unit (like a quatrain or couplet) and various line lengths and stanza lengths, then it would be a FV post....
Posted by: Nina Jan 15 05, 18:15
Hi Lori and James
I'm with Alan on this. Simplicity please. At the moment my mouse knows to go straight to Homer (actually Homer's is on my favourites). and I can get there with 2 clicks.
With the changes, instead of posting in one forum, I will have to post in 2, depending on whether my poem is in rhyme or free verse.
My next question is - if I post a rhyming poem in one forum will I have to wait 3 days before posting a free verse poem in the other forum?
Nina
Posted by: Jox Jan 15 05, 18:15
Well, yes that does seem simple sense to me, Lori - good.
Is that really confusing, Alan? I know that you won't be confused by it but I realise that you're trying to speak for others who might be...
James.
Posted by: Jox Jan 15 05, 18:21
Hi Nina.
I like the idea of simplicity, too. But the present system is not working.
Socrates (which you say you are unsure of) is dying.
OK, we could just have one forum but each member would see their poem disappear faster than at present with possibly fewer crits.
So I think we do need two to three forums.
Next question (if one accepts that) how to divide them.
Is Lori's latest post (above yours) not simple?
I would have thought that one member could then post a poem in one forum and another in the other virtually simultaneously if they wishes - each forum having seperate three day rules.
I take Alan's point and it seems to have a lot going for it but I just wonder if most people would end-up migrating to just one forum after a while?
James.
Posted by: Cleo_Serapis Jan 15 05, 18:33
Hello Nina!
Hmmm - I will ask Eric and Ron to assist me with a better definition of R & M v. FV..
As for posting rules - each forum has their own rules and the same would apply in the two new forums:
The *1:3:2 rule applies here. You may post (1) thread every (3) days with at least (2) critiques to other's works.
Post no more than 1 poem per 3 day period - with the required 2 replies.
There is no cross-over or waiting required of the forums as each is unique with its own rules, so YES by all means, each of us can post in Homers and Socrates and Stonehenge and Loch Ness etc... on the same day BUT the individual forums each have their own rules. In Homer's one post every three days with two crits. Same in Socrates etc....
Does that help?
Cleo
Posted by: Jan 15 05, 18:42
Dear Jox,
You are very kind to say that I am concerned for others. Nope, if I have to figure through this :
If your poem has end rhymes and/or is of a formal poetic style then R & M is the forum..
If your poem has no rhyming end lines or metrical unit (like a quatrain or couplet) and various line lengths and stanza lengths, then it would be a FV post....
every time I want to post, I will be in confusion. Yes, I can sit down and figure it out, but that is hardly simple. It will be a barrier, and it will stop some newer people "daring" in case they get it wrong. Witness those who say they never venture into Socrates, they don't think they could do hard crit, or possibly, unspoken, they don't want hard crit themselves.
I think we are very fortunate on MM to have developed such a "creative" and "caring" crit style that people dare to be exposed to it. If we start expecting people to analyse what they are about to put up, including ME, that is an extra barrier to simplicity.
I would probably for safety simply throw everything into the FV one, in a sense, anything goes, there, so everything goes there !
I admire Lori, who DOES know the difference, and you, who has no problem, you only do FV. But if I look at the last 5 poems I wrote, I'd spend several minutes working out what they were, other than "the best words, in their best order" for effective communication.
Love
Alan
Posted by: Jox Jan 15 05, 18:48
Hi Alan,
Well I do sometimes makes poor attempts at non-freeverse, though I do know the difference because my brain threatens to abandon me for ever when that rare event occurs.
But I jest and I take your point.
Back to thinking. Brain!...
James.
Posted by: Cleo_Serapis Jan 15 05, 18:53
Hi Alan! 
I am going to use a few of your poems here as examples of R & M and FV oif you don't mind...
A great example of R&M:
ILLUMINATUS
(Words used : mimic laser succumb matrix
hatch human obsess span organic luminous)
Mimic the laser,
get straight to the point,
or succumb to the matrix
and blow up the joint.
Hatch human plots now,
be obsessed by the span
of mankind’s brief lifetime
’fore he’s washed down the pan.
If confined to organic,
you’ll not become numinous;
so forsake all that’s flesh :
free spirit, you’re luminous.
Alan McAlpine Douglas
In the above, you employed a quatrain stanza pattern with a rhyme scheme of ABCB (point/joint) DEFE (span/pan) etc... This is clearly an R & M poem...
This one I would say is FV as there is no rhyme patterns:
BEHOLDEN
Behold and wonder that a simple freckle
could cause this wintry frost
to envelope my entire life;
a lapse, barely a dot in time
never even logged in the dust
that passes for history :
how could I know when serenading
this perfect beauty spot,
as beholden by my eye,
that it is the one feature
that mars the perfection,
as seen by her beholder ....
Alan McAlpine Douglas
(wonder simple freckle wintry frost
lapse dot log dust serenade)
Another R&M:
ABSOLUTE HELL
The weatherman will cheerily tell
of absolutely freezing hell,
but really he has no idea
of coldest winner, true and clear.
The prof’s theory is absolute,
world’s central heating’s up the chute,
on minus scale, absolute zero;
makes of him a “Science Hero”.
Come on guys, all your fine theories
have it wrong, how my mind wearies;
think big, absolutely bolder :
the coldest thing is ...
... her cold shoulder.
Alan McAlpine Douglas
Does this help?
Posted by: Cleo_Serapis Jan 15 05, 19:15
Another example is with my poem http://forums.mosaicmusings.net/cgi-bin/forums/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=4;t=191 in Homers..
Even though I have employed alliteration, I did not use any type of form poetry OR rhyming words/end lines so this is considered a FV....
Posted by: jgdittier Jan 15 05, 21:24
Dear All,
I was a "cousin" at POEMS place, now defunct. We were limited to verse which was intentionally planned to require an established (general) metre. Thus rhyme became of no consequence. The term "form" simply meant the verse exhibited in the mind of the writer an effort at relatively repetitive cadence. What was/is called blank verse qualified, types of verse which did not require an effort to establish a pleasant cadence in the work did not qualify.
There are now types of "form" poetry that have strict guidelines but do not require cadence or rhyme, some based on appearance. I believe at MM there is insufficient of them to justify a separate section and that all poetry types which have a formal name and definition but do not require controlled meter could be placed arbitrary in either section.
Cheers, jgd
Posted by: Toumai Jan 16 05, 04:35
I'm enjoying MM so much - a friendly, helpful site. :cloud9:
BUT ... I'm not sure I'd have dared join (even with James's encouragement) if I had to 'formally analyse' my work before posting. And, as I said before, there are those of us who are 'beginners' who may be detered from venturing into any strict 'form' if it is a separate forum ...
On the other hand, maybe, with such careful crits and wonderful versers, MM is more suited to 'experienced' poets (erm ... Alan?).
I have a nasty feeling I'm muddying the waters, but hopefully something useful will eventually flow out of this discussion. :pharoah2
Love to all,
Fran
Posted by: Jox Jan 16 05, 05:09
Hi Ron,
I think you'll find there are a lot of rhyming and form poems on MM. I would think (rough estimate) 40-50%.
Hi Fran,
Interesting comments - hitherto you have written freeverse but would you really not know if you rhymed a poem or set-about to write in a form (if you're like me (!) you'd have to carefully check every step to write in form, anyway. I know when I've written in form because I've had to be so careful then get things wrong and then cannot say things quite as I wish.
Nevertheless, the last thing we wish to do is to erect additional barriers to new-comers. Ironically, my original PM to Lori was about reducing barriers because of things potential members (existing BBCGW members) have said to me. Lori is trying to reduce and simplify the forums.
To all:
Many people are saying that the proposals are not good enough; thank you for your comments - they are useful. Given the present Homer's / Socrates system is not working (and it isn't) are there any positive suggestions out there? (Alan has submitted one already - any more?)
James.
Posted by: Cleo_Serapis Jan 16 05, 08:22
I think it will fall into place once we start the change. I understand that everyone acepts change differently - but I really believe that once each of us sees the forums in action, it will become a simple thing. I for one can always move posts if they do not 'fit' into the forum posted as well as the other mods here in the event that happens too - we are all flexible and I hope can adapt in time.
I will now post some definitions of R & M and FV - maybe this will help?
From http://www.poeticbyway.com/:
RHYME - The "R" in R & M...
In the specific sense, a type of echoing (the repetition of particular sounds, syllables, words or lines in poetry) which utilizes a correspondence of sound in the final accented vowels.
In a broader poetic sense, however, rhyme refers to a close similarity of sound as well as an exact correspondence; it includes the agreement of vowel sounds in assonance and the repetition of consonant sounds in consonance and alliteration. Usually, but not always, rhymes occur at the ends of lines.
Sidelight: Differences as well as identity in sound echoes between words contribute to the euphonic effect, stimulate intellectual appreciation, and serve to unify a poem. In addition, rhymes tend to heighten the significance of the words, provide a powerful mnemonic device, and complement the rhythmic quality of the lines.
Sidelight: Terms like near rhyme, half rhyme, and perfect rhyme function to distinguish between the types of rhyme without prejudicial intent and should not be interpreted as expressions of value.
Sidelight: Early examples of English poetry used alliterative verse instead of rhyme. The use of rhyme in the end words of verse originally arose to compensate for the sometimes unsatisfactory quality of rhythm within the lines; variations in the patterns of rhyme schemes then became functional in defining diverse stanza forms, such as, ottava rima, rhyme royal, terza rima, the Spenserian stanza, and others. Rhyme schemes are also significant factors in the definitions of whole poems, such as ballade, limerick, rondeau, sonnet, triolet, and villanelle.
METER or METRE - the "M" in R&M...
A measure of *rhythmic quantity;the organized succession of groups of syllables at basically regular intervals in a line of poetry, according to definite metrical patterns. In classic Greek and Latin versification, meter depended on the way long and short syllables were arranged to succeed one another, but in English the distinction is between accented and unaccented syllables. The unit of meter is the foot.
Metrical lines are named for the constituent foot and for the number of feet in the line: monometer (1), dimeter (2), trimeter (3), tetrameter (4), pentameter (5), hexameter (6), heptameter (7), and octameter (8); thus, a line containing five iambic feet, for example, would be called iambic pentameter. Rarely does a metrical line exceed six feet.
The metrical element of sound makes a valuable contribution to the mood and total effect of a poem.
Sidelight: In the composition of verse, poets sometimes make deviations from the systematic metrical patterns. This is often desirable because (1) variations will avoid the mechanical "te-dum, te-dum" monotony of a too-regular rhythm and (2) changes in the metrical pattern are an effective way to emphasize or reinforce meaning in the content. These variations are introduced by substituting different feet at places within a line. (Poets can also employ a caesura, use run-on lines and vary the degrees of accent by skillful word selection to modify the rhythmic pattern, a process called modulation. Accents heightened by semantic emphasis also provide diversity.) A proficient writer of poetry, therefore, is not a slave to the dictates of metrics, but neither should the poet stray so far from the meter as to lose the musical value or emotional potential of rhythmical repetition. Of course, in modern free verse, meter has become either irregular or non-existent.
Sidelight: Generally speaking, it is advisable for poets to delay the introduction of metrical variations until the ear of the reader has had time to become accustomed to the basic rhythmic pattern.
Sidelight: In music, the term, rubato, refers to rhythmic variations from the written score applied in the performance.
*Rhythmic - the regular or progressive pattern of recurrent accents in the flow of a poem as determined by the arses and theses of the metrical feet, i.e., the rise and fall of stress. The measure of rhythmic quantity is the meter.
Sidelight: A rhythmic pattern in which the accent falls on the final syllable of each foot, as in the iamb or anapest, is called a rising or ascending rhythm; a rhythmic pattern with the accent occurring on the first syllable of each foot, as in the dactyl or trochee, is a falling or descending rhythm.
FREE VERSE
A fluid form which conforms to no set rules of traditional versification. The free in free verse refers to the freedom from fixed patterns of meter and rhyme,but writers of free verse employ familiar poetic devices such as assonance, alliteration, imagery, caesura, figures of speech etc., and their rhythmic effects are dependent on the syllabic cadences emerging from the context. The term is often used in its French language form, vers libre. Walt Whitman's "By the Bivouac's Fitful Flame," is an example of a poem written in free verse.
Sidelight: Although as ancient as Anglo-Saxon verse, free verse was first employed "officially" by French poets of the Symbolist movement and became the prevailing poetic form at the climax of Romanticism. In the 20th century it was the chosen medium of the Imagists and was widely adopted by American and English poets.
Sidelight: One of the characteristics that distinguish free verse from rhythmical prose is that free verse has line breaks which divide the content into uneven rhythmical units. The liberation from metrical regularity allows the poet to select line breaks appropriate to the intended sense of the text, as well as to shape the white space on the page for visual effect.
Sidelight: Free verse enjoys a greater potential for visual arrangement than is possible in metrical verse. Free verse poets can structure the relationships between white space and textual elements to indicate pause, distance, silence, emotion, and other effects.
Sidelight: Poorly written free verse can be viewed simply as prose with arbitrary line breaks. Well-written free verse can approach a proximity to the representation of living experience.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language: Fourth Edition. 2000.
METER1
SYLLABICATION: me·ter
PRONUNCIATION: mtr
NOUN: 1a. The measured arrangement of words in poetry, as by accentual rhythm, syllabic quantity, or the number of syllables in a line. b. A particular arrangement of words in poetry, such as iambic pentameter, determined by the kind and number of metrical units in a line. c. The rhythmic pattern of a stanza, determined by the kind and number of lines. 2. Music a. Division into measures or bars. b. A specific rhythm determined by the number of beats and the time value assigned to each note in a measure.
The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language: Fourth Edition. 2000.
PERFECT RHYME
NOUN: 1. Rhyme in which the final accented vowel and all succeeding consonants or syllables are identical, while the preceding consonants are different, for example, great, late; rider, beside her; dutiful, unbeautiful. Also called full rhyme, true rhyme. 2. Rime riche.
The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language: Fourth Edition. 2000.
FREE VERSE
NOUN: Verse composed of variable, usually unrhymed lines having no fixed metrical pattern.
Posted by: Jox Jan 16 05, 09:16
Hi all,
I think the information / definitions which Lori has posted are fascinating and useful. However, they are only there to answer various questions which have emerged. No one should become "hung-up" on them - as Lori says, postings can be moved if necessary and no one is committing a crime by being wrong in their posting.
But having freeverse / freeform on one forum and all forms of pre-arrangement on another - form and verse does seem an easy division to me... far easier, in fact, than deciding if one would like a complex or mild crit - and then being surprised by the response.
Essentially, if you didn't have a form in mind when you wrote it and it doesn't rhyme then it is freeform. You are most unlikely to stumble into form or rhyme by accident - it takes quite an effort.
James.
P.S. I think that's the first time I've started a paragraph with "but". Good to break the rules sometimes!
Posted by: Jan 16 05, 09:17
Dear Cleo,
Experienced as I might be in writing verse, I do so from a "this is a communication" angle, rather than any knowledge of the mechanicals.
The above post full of what I presume is excellent definitions just made me want to run away, rather than absorb all those words.
And yes, now that you print up my poems with a statement of what they are, I can stop and recognise rhyme from the other, but I am not looking forward to having to apply any kind of analysis other than "Are these the best words" to my work.
Bear in mind that you set out to sort a non-functioning system. Be sure that what you put in works better than the old one.
Love
Alan
Posted by: Cleo_Serapis Jan 16 05, 09:58
Hi Alan. :rainbow:
I DO appreciate your words and hesitation of our changes to MM. How else would I know if things are working as well as they should and can be?
I've heard privately from many of our excellent (both inexperienced and experienced) writers over the past several months regarding confusion over the existing structure.
The initial questions were mostly geared towards 'What is the difference between mild & complex crit?" After posting and interacting with our members, it seems that ALL our critiques are moderate. This forced less folks to post at Socrates and more to post at Homers because, frankly, most hang out in Homers and posts there receive more reads and replies. One can see this by the number of Wizard Awards won at both. :pharoah2
The questions then started to shift from critique methods to form. For our members who are dedicated to one or the other, it became 'more difficult' and 'more time consuming' to a degree to select the posts to respond to as per our forum rules of 2 crits per each post. Part of that stems from the sheer amount of posts in Homers (its popularity). :grinning: Seriously, I hear this very often via PM and email. We've actually lost some members too. :oops:
So.... what I've done today is add two new forums here in the Poisedon's Poetry category, Hermia's Homilies (For R & M and FIXED FORM Poetry for Critique) and Seren's Synapse (For Free Verse Poetry for Critique). I haven't made Homers and Socrates 'member only' yet nor have I changed them to read and reply only just yet.
I will do that once I've sent out a PM to our members explaining the changes. I AM going to go into Homers and Socrates now and 'move' those posts started in January 2005 into one or the other new forums.
I can only see that this change will better MM - and if after a few weeks time Or a month or two, it isn't working, I am ALWAYS open to change and ideas.
I hope this is acceptable to all...
Regards.
Cleo :cheer:
Posted by: Cleo_Serapis Feb 26 05, 09:51
Slight name change on Hermia's forum to Herme's (two syllables much easier)! 
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