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> Showcase Forums ~ a new suggestion, Copyright Protection/Archiving
Showcase Forums - public or private?
If you had your own showcase forum, which preference would you want?
I'd want it to be a private, members only forum [ 6 ] ** [85.71%]
I'd want it to be a public forum, viewable to guests and crawlers [ 1 ] ** [14.29%]
I have no preference [ 0 ] ** [0.00%]
Total Votes: 7
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Cleo_Serapis
post Feb 12 07, 11:04
Post #1


Mosaic Master
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Group: Administrator
Posts: 18,891
Joined: 1-August 03
From: Massachusetts
Member No.: 2
Real Name: Lori Kanter
Writer of: Poetry & Prose
Referred By:Imhotep



Hello all. wave.gif

A few questions were raised recently to me regarding archiving critiqued works for personal publication activities relating to copyright ownership. One of these questions was on how to delete threads once the writer felt they were polished enough (as they don't wish them to remain in the public forums). The heart of this request was based on crawlers in the public forums as well as people 'potentially stealing' the works. It all harkens back to the question of copyright. We've posted a thorough Copyright thread at the following URL after discussing the concerns with our site attorney a few years ago.
http://forums.mosaicmusings.net/index.php?showtopic=791

Since MM is positioned as a 'writer's workshop' I shutter at the thought of threads being deleted, as there would then be no record of that interaction ever taking place, nor all the time and effort spent by the membership to help the writer through (the excellent feedback process,) the revisions incorporated into the polished work. This interaction (we share here at Mosaic Musings) is an integral part of our continued growth and evolvement as confident and competent writers.

As it goes with internet forums, all we can do is try to utilize what tools we have available to protect ourselves, but there is never a guarantee in the public arena that some sleezebag won't try to steal works - this is whole intent of the copyright laws - to protect the original author. Someone once told me the best way to 'prove' your works are your own is to do one of two things (actually three things) in the age of the internet:
  1. Print out your work is its original un-edited format (prior to revisions being made) and mail it to yourself through the post office. Then, never open the envelope. The postmark date serves as the original creation date and proof should you ever need to seek legal action in a court of law.
  2. Copy your work onto a disc and file it away in your personal files. This is another record of the creation date and proof of authorship.
  3. Post your original version on the internet (like we do here at MM) which also proves original creator and date.
This site is public and some forums are visible to users who are not 'logged in'. Even with membership requirements to post here, there are still no guarantees that one of our own members might be dishonest enough to steal a work too, I've seen it happen at other poetry forums. I'm not saying anyone has or would, but I'm just saying, it's a possibility.

All posts in MM's PUBLIC forums can be crawled by search engines. It doesn't change the fact that you are the copyright owner and except for the limited writes given to MM in our terms of service (visit homepage), anyone copying your works or otherwise misusing them is in direct violation of your copyright. All exclusive rights are reserved by the respective copyright owners and no redistribution including publication or reproduction in any form is permitted without express permission of the copyright owner.

This question comes up at many public writing sites. You can most certainly publish your works in an ebook, paperback, chapbook etc.. as you wish and your copyright remains with you, irregardless of whether or not your content was workshopped on the net. Deleting posts here is not something I'd like to see happen. The intent of this forum is to polish your work through the act of feedback and critique and open the doors to becoming better at our craft. It's this interaction that brings forth better writing.

This brings me to the meat of this thread: Highlighting our Showcase forums and suggesting a change to them as a potential solution for removal in the pubnlic forum into a private one. These showcase forums can be created for any member who wishes to have one for 'polished works'. We should make them 'private forums' - for members only (meaning you must be logged in to click into them just like our "Acropolis" and "Sanctuary" forums for example) - that way, they can't be crawled since the intent of them is for polished works anyway.

Then, we could offer a choice to those who have these showcase forums: we can move your threads into them (with all the commentary) only when they are polished - all you'd have to do is ask a mod (Liz, Cathy, Snow or myself). This would achieve three things: clean up the crit forums, carry forward all the commentary within the post so other readers can see what had gone into the revision process, all the feedback, suggestions and revisions the writer had made in the process, and prevent those posts from being 'crawled' from that point forward. It takes a bit for the search engines to get 'caught up' but eventually, you shouldn't be able to search them.

The other option is to allow the members to just do a copy/paste and create new tiles in their showcases as we have done so far. With this option, their original posts would remain in the crit forums and could still be crawled and constructively workshopped. But a second post would exist strictly in the showcase without any of the commentary attached to it.

I have the showcase forums currently set up as 'no replies allowed'. I would still want to keep them that way. These showcase forums are like a library for our members and its something that not a lot of forum boards offer for free. It's an all or nothing decision though on the Private/public question as these showcase forums are set up by membergroup permissions, therefore, I would simply make them not viewable to guests.

Please consider our suggestion and let us know your thoughts by replying to this tile. I can create a showcase forum for members who inquire and then we can go from there. We can either move entire threads into them or leave that choice up to you.

Regards
Lori sun.gif


·······IPB·······

"It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step into the Road, and if you don't keep your feet, there is no knowing where you might be swept off to." ~ J.R.R Tolkien, The Lord of the Rings

Collaboration feeds innovation. In the spirit of workshopping, please revisit those threads you've critiqued to see if the author has incorporated your ideas, or requests further feedback from you. In addition, reciprocate with those who've responded to you in kind.

"I believe it is the act of remembrance, long after our bones have turned to dust, to be the true essence of an afterlife." ~ Lorraine M. Kanter

Nominate a poem for the InterBoard Poetry Competition by taking into careful consideration those poems you feel would best represent Mosaic Musings. For details, click into the IBPC nomination forum. Did that poem just captivate you? Nominate it for the Faery award today! If perfection of form allured your muse, propose the Crown Jewels award. For more information, click here!

"Worry looks around, Sorry looks back, Faith looks up." ~ Early detection can save your life.

MM Award Winner
 
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Guest_Cathy_*
post Feb 14 07, 09:48
Post #2





Guest






Personally I like the idea of keeping poems in the crit forums. Most of us will occasionally pull out one of our older poems and work on it some more. I do it to poems that I once considered polished and finished. I will often go back and pull up an old poem of someone else's to crit because I might have missed it before or something. Regardless... someone may come up with a better suggestion or idea which makes my poem better or I might get lucky and offer something that someone else would like to use to improve their work. I like using the showcase forum (although I haven't had time to move any new ones yet.. *smiles*) because if you like a certain poet it makes it so easy to find and read their work. I prefer to see them kept private. If a guest comes in and is looking for something... make them search through the crit forums. Maybe they'll get frustrated and give up! LOL

Cathy
 
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Cleo_Serapis
post Feb 14 07, 10:41
Post #3


Mosaic Master
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Group: Administrator
Posts: 18,891
Joined: 1-August 03
From: Massachusetts
Member No.: 2
Real Name: Lori Kanter
Writer of: Poetry & Prose
Referred By:Imhotep



Hi Cathy.

Thanks for your reply! arwen.gif

I agree with you - I like the idea of keeping the poems in the crit forums and re-posting only the polished version (with a link back the thread in the crit forum) in the Showcase. We can leave the option open to the members and they can decide which way they'd like to utilize this feature.

One thing we need to decide though is making them private or keeping them public - I opt for making them PRIVATE too for the reasons mentioned above. police.gif

Is a work every really 'polished'? I try to go back to older threads and give them a fresh read-over (and again once the member has made a revision) to see the changes that they made to the work. It helps both parties and that is the intent of MM afterall. mm.gif mm.gif

I'll plan to send off a PM to the members who currently have Showcase forums to get their feedback - perhaps I'll add a poll here to this thread too?

Cheers Cathy
~Cleo galadriel.gif


·······IPB·······

"It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step into the Road, and if you don't keep your feet, there is no knowing where you might be swept off to." ~ J.R.R Tolkien, The Lord of the Rings

Collaboration feeds innovation. In the spirit of workshopping, please revisit those threads you've critiqued to see if the author has incorporated your ideas, or requests further feedback from you. In addition, reciprocate with those who've responded to you in kind.

"I believe it is the act of remembrance, long after our bones have turned to dust, to be the true essence of an afterlife." ~ Lorraine M. Kanter

Nominate a poem for the InterBoard Poetry Competition by taking into careful consideration those poems you feel would best represent Mosaic Musings. For details, click into the IBPC nomination forum. Did that poem just captivate you? Nominate it for the Faery award today! If perfection of form allured your muse, propose the Crown Jewels award. For more information, click here!

"Worry looks around, Sorry looks back, Faith looks up." ~ Early detection can save your life.

MM Award Winner
 
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Cleo_Serapis
post Feb 14 07, 10:46
Post #4


Mosaic Master
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Group: Administrator
Posts: 18,891
Joined: 1-August 03
From: Massachusetts
Member No.: 2
Real Name: Lori Kanter
Writer of: Poetry & Prose
Referred By:Imhotep



This poll was added to ask the membership which preference you favor with regard to our Showcase forums.


·······IPB·······

"It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step into the Road, and if you don't keep your feet, there is no knowing where you might be swept off to." ~ J.R.R Tolkien, The Lord of the Rings

Collaboration feeds innovation. In the spirit of workshopping, please revisit those threads you've critiqued to see if the author has incorporated your ideas, or requests further feedback from you. In addition, reciprocate with those who've responded to you in kind.

"I believe it is the act of remembrance, long after our bones have turned to dust, to be the true essence of an afterlife." ~ Lorraine M. Kanter

Nominate a poem for the InterBoard Poetry Competition by taking into careful consideration those poems you feel would best represent Mosaic Musings. For details, click into the IBPC nomination forum. Did that poem just captivate you? Nominate it for the Faery award today! If perfection of form allured your muse, propose the Crown Jewels award. For more information, click here!

"Worry looks around, Sorry looks back, Faith looks up." ~ Early detection can save your life.

MM Award Winner
 
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AMETHYST
post Feb 14 07, 12:06
Post #5


Ornate Oracle
******

Group: Gold Member
Posts: 3,822
Joined: 3-August 03
From: Florida
Member No.: 10
Real Name: Elizabeth
Writer of: Poetry
Referred By:Lori Kanter



Hello All,

I agree, I like the idea of making the Personal Forums private to non-members. However, I also like the idea of being able to move the critique thread into that members personal forum for several reasons.

1. It keeps the active threads available in the critique forum and lets other's know that if the poem is located in that forum, it is still open for commentary and suggestions for possible revision.

2. It would serve as the member own data base to preserve the growth of the poem, and can easiily be found, like a log of their works, preserving the original draft, as well as the critiques that helped improve the poem.

3. It makes it easy for the member to get a full view of their finished works-making a record of the poem in its entirety.

4. If there was ever an issue with copyright, the member wouldn't have to go through pages upon pages looking for the specific thread to show their original posting date. (Yes, an easy fix for that is to place a link to the original thread) so that isn't all that big a deal.

... hmmm, I guess with the link to the original post, it isn't really a big dea..


Never mind! LOL

I am grateful to have the cubby (personal forum) ... I do agree with making them private to outside members.


Hugs, Liz ...

(Lauren wants me off the computer so she can use it -- I thought I had a few more years before she would take over my computer) Who would have known! :)


·······IPB·······

Nominate a poem for the InterBoard Poetry Competition by taking into careful consideration those poems you feel would best represent Mosaic Musings. For details, click into the IBPC nomination forum. Did that poem just captivate you? Nominate it for the Faery award today! If perfection of form allured your muse, propose the Crown Jewels award. For more details, click here!

MM Award Winner
 
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Guest_Don_*
post Feb 14 07, 16:01
Post #6





Guest






Hi all,

I have not availed myself of any view only without comment tiles. My emphasis at MM is as a workshop; therefore, everything from me is open to crit forever. I keep my own copies of original and revisions, but certainly do not have the long record of comments in process.

Occasionally, I've searched for something old by either myself or another to review. I do have trouble with the search engine, but manage to get there somehow.

I would find deletions a hinderance for how I use MM archives. By same token MM is among very few that keep workshop archives for any length of time. Due to this rarity, I am not addicted to depending upon them.

I really don't see how restrictions to members only resolves copyright piracy. Outside of that, I do not understand how works on this or any other site can be blocked from webcrawlers. Ocassionally, I check to see who has found me. Todate what is available on general search engines is laughably out of date.

Look up Shel Silverstein (Uncle Shelby) and try to copy and paste any of his prolific works for adults and children. Buy the hardcopy or nothing. His Internet exposure is high, his copyright protection from common copy and paste is perfect.
 
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AMETHYST
post Feb 14 07, 17:24
Post #7


Ornate Oracle
******

Group: Gold Member
Posts: 3,822
Joined: 3-August 03
From: Florida
Member No.: 10
Real Name: Elizabeth
Writer of: Poetry
Referred By:Lori Kanter



Some excellent issues and information Don! That is good feedback, I agree with lots of what you've stated.

Hugs, Liz


·······IPB·······

Nominate a poem for the InterBoard Poetry Competition by taking into careful consideration those poems you feel would best represent Mosaic Musings. For details, click into the IBPC nomination forum. Did that poem just captivate you? Nominate it for the Faery award today! If perfection of form allured your muse, propose the Crown Jewels award. For more details, click here!

MM Award Winner
 
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Eisa
post Feb 15 07, 19:21
Post #8


Mosaic Master
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Group: Praetorian
Posts: 4,599
Joined: 4-August 03
From: Birmingham, England
Member No.: 12
Real Name: Eira Needham
Writer of: Poetry
Referred By:Lori



I think it would be a good idea to keep personal forums private, just to make things more difficult for crawlers.
I do think it is imortant to keep critiques for future reference. Sometimes I have discarded a suggestion and come back months later to find it was a good idea after all. I'm glad I'm not in the minority over final revisions really being final as I am continually coming back to final revisions and revising again! writersblock.gif

Liz -- I think you have quite some years ahead of queuing up for your own computer rolleyes.gif

Snow Snowflake.gif


·······IPB·······

Live one day at a time -it's simpler that way.
Laugh loud & often - it's medicinal.
Write from the heart - it's therapeutic.
Beauty comes from within - the outer is just skin!

Nominate a poem for the InterBoard Poetry Competition by taking into careful consideration those poems you feel would best represent Mosaic Musings. For details, click into the IBPC nomination forum. Did that poem just captivate you? Nominate it for the Faery award today! If perfection of form allured your muse, propose the Crown Jewels award. For more details, click here!

MM Award Winner
 
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Cleopatra
post Feb 16 07, 10:01
Post #9


Nomad
*

Group: Gold Member
Posts: 11
Joined: 24-April 05
From: Massachusetts, USA
Member No.: 112
Real Name: Lori
Writer of: Poetry
Referred By:Cleo_Serapis



I agree with you Snow. I never think a work is ever really 'final'.
Snowflake.gif


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"Emotion is the interpreter of all languages." ~ Lorraine Kanter
 
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AMETHYST
post Feb 16 07, 10:15
Post #10


Ornate Oracle
******

Group: Gold Member
Posts: 3,822
Joined: 3-August 03
From: Florida
Member No.: 10
Real Name: Elizabeth
Writer of: Poetry
Referred By:Lori Kanter



I also agree. I know my is never really finalized, although when I reach a point of contentment with the revisions, I put final on the header--although I am always still open to further thoughts from others.


·······IPB·······

Nominate a poem for the InterBoard Poetry Competition by taking into careful consideration those poems you feel would best represent Mosaic Musings. For details, click into the IBPC nomination forum. Did that poem just captivate you? Nominate it for the Faery award today! If perfection of form allured your muse, propose the Crown Jewels award. For more details, click here!

MM Award Winner
 
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Cleo_Serapis
post Feb 16 07, 10:16
Post #11


Mosaic Master
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Group: Administrator
Posts: 18,891
Joined: 1-August 03
From: Massachusetts
Member No.: 2
Real Name: Lori Kanter
Writer of: Poetry & Prose
Referred By:Imhotep



Hi Don. gimli.gif

I never asked if you'd like a showcase cubby for your works here? I am of the mindset as the others, and like to think a work is always open to further critiques and revisions. One question that lingers for me is this: When a poem is published (wherever that may be) and then further revisions are made to it, is it still considered published by publisher standards? I'd venture to guess that the answer is 'yes' but each publisher you ask will give you a different answer. LOL.gif

We have plenty of dataspace at MM for archiving, not deleting of our workshopping efforts. cheer.gif

As for crawlers, if you are a member on a completely paid-only private forum, then spiders cannot crawl that site. Likewise (although I'll confirm this), when you have 'private, members-only forums' within a public site, those forums cannot be crawled, such as our Acropolis and Sanctuary. Only forums viewable to 'guests' (when you're not logged in) can be crawled.

As for your search efforts, I can assist you. It's actually not as hard as one thinks, there are a few different ways to search here at IPB. You can use the 'advanced search' method (see the FAQ forum for details) or you can search within a forum too (i.e. Herme's) by 'Order: Topic Starter'.

Cheers
~Cleo galadriel.gif


·······IPB·······

"It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step into the Road, and if you don't keep your feet, there is no knowing where you might be swept off to." ~ J.R.R Tolkien, The Lord of the Rings

Collaboration feeds innovation. In the spirit of workshopping, please revisit those threads you've critiqued to see if the author has incorporated your ideas, or requests further feedback from you. In addition, reciprocate with those who've responded to you in kind.

"I believe it is the act of remembrance, long after our bones have turned to dust, to be the true essence of an afterlife." ~ Lorraine M. Kanter

Nominate a poem for the InterBoard Poetry Competition by taking into careful consideration those poems you feel would best represent Mosaic Musings. For details, click into the IBPC nomination forum. Did that poem just captivate you? Nominate it for the Faery award today! If perfection of form allured your muse, propose the Crown Jewels award. For more information, click here!

"Worry looks around, Sorry looks back, Faith looks up." ~ Early detection can save your life.

MM Award Winner
 
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Guest_Don_*
post Feb 16 07, 11:15
Post #12





Guest






QUOTE (Cleo_Serapis @ Feb 16 07, 10:16 ) *
Hi Don. gimli.gif

I never asked if you'd like a showcase cubby for your works here? I am of the mindset as the others, and like to think a work is always open to further critiques and revisions. One question that lingers for me is this: When a poem is published (wherever that may be) and then further revisions are made to it, is it still considered published by publisher standards? I'd venture to guess that the answer is 'yes' but each publisher you ask will give you a different answer. LOL.gif

We have plenty of dataspace at MM for archiving, not deleting of our workshopping efforts. cheer.gif

As for crawlers, if you are a member on a completely paid-only private forum, then spiders cannot crawl that site. Likewise (although I'll confirm this), when you have 'private, members-only forums' within a public site, those forums cannot be crawled, such as our Acropolis and Sanctuary. Only forums viewable to 'guests' (when you're not logged in) can be crawled.

As for your search efforts, I can assist you. It's actually not as hard as one thinks, there are a few different ways to search here at IPB. You can use the 'advanced search' method (see the FAQ forum for details) or you can search within a forum too (i.e. Herme's) by member name.

Cheers
~Cleo galadriel.gif

Hi Cleo,

I've been aware that any member may have a showcase if desired. I've just never considered my work thus far ready to be carved in stone.

I agree that the general rule is unless a poem is significantly revised, with probably a different title, the orginal publication copyright date is valid. Of course simply changing a title would not abort copyright. If anyone essentially copies verbatum, it is plagerism. I apply this thought to whether or not my own work should be considered plagerism--a revision--or justify a new copyright date assigned by myself. Obviously not a black and white line, but my personal records comply to this ruling.

I used to firmly believe that submissions on forums similar to MM to be workshop and not published. As you may well know it depends upon the potential publisher or contest rules. I imagine it is like traditional publishers avoiding hassle of anything with a first copyright, to reuse themselves. Any public exposure is sometimes rejected to avoid potential unforeseen complications.

Thanks for explaining what currently blocks webcrawlers.

I usually use "advanced search" due to failing to learn how to use the other options. One of these days, I promise myself, I will bring a candle to the hidden crevices of search techniques. Thanks for your offer to help as I am certain your knowledge will add illumination.

Upon reading this thread, I've learned another use for personal space at MM besides self aggrandisment.

May I clarify, what may have not been before, that even winners and published works of mine are not considered immutably complete. I am certain others consider works complete, if by virtue of lacking time to revisit; and a safe haven from crawlers is valid. I keep my own records knowing that software changes often force blowing away the past. Having a second record, say at MM, is beneficial when one purchases a new system without media drives upon which home records are maintained. How many of us remember the 5 1/4-inch diskettes?

Don
 
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Cleo_Serapis
post Feb 19 07, 09:32
Post #13


Mosaic Master
Group Icon

Group: Administrator
Posts: 18,891
Joined: 1-August 03
From: Massachusetts
Member No.: 2
Real Name: Lori Kanter
Writer of: Poetry & Prose
Referred By:Imhotep



Thanks all who've voted thus far. I will be making the Showcase forums private in a few minutes and will then send a PM to the members who already have one as an FYI.


·······IPB·······

"It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step into the Road, and if you don't keep your feet, there is no knowing where you might be swept off to." ~ J.R.R Tolkien, The Lord of the Rings

Collaboration feeds innovation. In the spirit of workshopping, please revisit those threads you've critiqued to see if the author has incorporated your ideas, or requests further feedback from you. In addition, reciprocate with those who've responded to you in kind.

"I believe it is the act of remembrance, long after our bones have turned to dust, to be the true essence of an afterlife." ~ Lorraine M. Kanter

Nominate a poem for the InterBoard Poetry Competition by taking into careful consideration those poems you feel would best represent Mosaic Musings. For details, click into the IBPC nomination forum. Did that poem just captivate you? Nominate it for the Faery award today! If perfection of form allured your muse, propose the Crown Jewels award. For more information, click here!

"Worry looks around, Sorry looks back, Faith looks up." ~ Early detection can save your life.

MM Award Winner
 
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Cleo_Serapis
post Feb 19 07, 09:33
Post #14


Mosaic Master
Group Icon

Group: Administrator
Posts: 18,891
Joined: 1-August 03
From: Massachusetts
Member No.: 2
Real Name: Lori Kanter
Writer of: Poetry & Prose
Referred By:Imhotep



I'm also going to sort the forums by member name alphabetically.....


·······IPB·······

"It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step into the Road, and if you don't keep your feet, there is no knowing where you might be swept off to." ~ J.R.R Tolkien, The Lord of the Rings

Collaboration feeds innovation. In the spirit of workshopping, please revisit those threads you've critiqued to see if the author has incorporated your ideas, or requests further feedback from you. In addition, reciprocate with those who've responded to you in kind.

"I believe it is the act of remembrance, long after our bones have turned to dust, to be the true essence of an afterlife." ~ Lorraine M. Kanter

Nominate a poem for the InterBoard Poetry Competition by taking into careful consideration those poems you feel would best represent Mosaic Musings. For details, click into the IBPC nomination forum. Did that poem just captivate you? Nominate it for the Faery award today! If perfection of form allured your muse, propose the Crown Jewels award. For more information, click here!

"Worry looks around, Sorry looks back, Faith looks up." ~ Early detection can save your life.

MM Award Winner
 
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