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Posted by: Cleo_Serapis Sep 2 05, 10:25

Update: Here is the OVERLAY page I just completed. It can serve as a start for discussion. As a design idea, I took some elements from a few different sites, while maintaining the forum board's look and feel. Trust me, it's ALL HTML hand-coded by the Cleo.  

Please let me know what you think...    

Click http://www.mosaicmusings.net/overlay.html to view this alternative forum entry page (in draft)...


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Navigation concerns:

I cannot think of any other ways to make MM simplier to navigate, other than to design an over-lay optional page. Each forum board itself will look and feel the same once you are in the actual forum.

To navigate around MM today, we have the following informtation:
[*]Category links: Will direct you to that section of the forum, e.g. For the Poet in You.
[*]Forum links: Will direct you t that specific area of writing on the board, e.g. Seren's Synapse, our freeform poetry for critique area.
[*]The Team List link to contact the staff (near board stats).
[*]The "Contact US" form on the home page. Here is the http://www.mosaicmusings.net/contact.htm.
[*]The current forum board display (restictions by Ikonboard out of my design control)  with descriptions of what is inside each forum.
[*]The written site map (link at top of page and on home page) with a link back to the home page http://www.mosaicmusings.net/ForumSiteMap.htm.
[*]The graphical index site map http://www.mosaicmusings.net/ALTindex.htm.
[*]The 'send message' buttons/links in each post to PM a member.



Your ideas are welcome to assist with ideas.
TY!
~Cleo  :block:

Posted by: Jox Sep 2 05, 13:40

Hi Lori,

On the navigation issue, yes we have a form of graphical interface but it is rather ponderous - big pictures and lots of screen - screens - to navigate.

I'm looking for a better example but, in the meantime, take a look at this UK supermarket website (link below). Being a supermarket site, it lacks art but the easy structure is a good example to others. When I find a better interface site I'll link it here.

I offered to help last time but you said you had a web designer working on it so I left it. I'll mock an idea up and send it to you to see what you think. You don't have to do everything - plenty of people are willing to help. And, since you'll be putting any design into the system, nothing that you don't like can go on anyway, so I'd relax :) I know someone else has also offered to help so it would be good to consider that approach, too.

Anyway, here's the link but I'll find better still within the weekend.

J.

http://www.waitrose.com/

Apparently, one can even buy babies from that site (bottom row) Amazing.

Posted by: Cleo_Serapis Sep 2 05, 19:19

It's not the ikonboard interface, it's simply a .com HTML page with links to the ikonboard forums and code behind the scenes made to look like the forum board.


Much like our own www.mosaicmusings.net homepage but designed to 'look like' the forum.

Here's a few more made to 'look like' the forum board but they're really not...

http://www.whatchamissin.com/

http://www.netgimmicks.com/

I like Net Gimmicks. They've employed a few more hacks that I haven't - the recent posts display and the top posters stats but if you look around this overlay page, you'll see some things that look like you're on the forum board, e.g. the 'Member Log in' and 'Options' boxes on the right of page and the 'Welcome Guest' log-in or register link top left. The Board stats are in the center (top). The Navigation links and the forum links (left of page are just html code that links you into the forum board...

Posted by: Arnfinn Sep 3 05, 01:00

Hi James,

Waitrose Supermarket


The babies look very cuddly, I'll have two those please.  How does one go about adoption papers? Do they arrive witha nurse and nanny?





It's ok, I'm just reading what you and Lori are discussing.



John

Posted by: Nina Sep 3 05, 01:36

Thanks for the links Lori

I still think they look cluttered, far too much text which spin your head.  I like something that I don't have to hunt around to find where I log in for example or where the forums are.  I want my eye drawn straight to the forums I want to view, in the case of MM Poetry and Prose.  I'm not interested in who are the most prolific posters.

Nina

Posted by: Toumai Sep 3 05, 02:34

Hey, a 3 for 2 deal on babies? Cute! Are mine too big to sell?  

Ah well ...

MM is by far the most positive, in depth, freindly site I have come across and I agree with Nina - it's my home from home.

I'm also thinking that the up-front pages need to be very very simple - text to absolute minimum. Sure, the information needs to be on site, but not in any detail on the main pages. That would also make the pages more compact - less scrolling (hey - I must be a poet now, lol)

I do think that having poetry and prose (and maybe newbies, if that becomes an option) up at the top would be good, too.

Some boards do have a 'newbies' area where people can introduce themselves and try their hand at posting.  It just requires a few people to keep an eye on the area and respond to any newbie greetings/questions.

Fran

Posted by: Jox Sep 3 05, 02:58

Hi Arn, Fran,

Waitrose are very obliging and I'm sure will take Fran's brood and deliver down under.

Seriously, though, shows even the best can make mistakes.

I still that that Waitrose site is a good indicator of the right direction (just needs to be more attractive). Nina's right about attractive simplicity and Fran's right about highlighting things to encourage new-comers - Lori, Nina, Fran, Arnie and I will be here anyway.

More links if / when.

J.

Posted by: Cleo_Serapis Sep 3 05, 06:48

I agree with you Nina!  :grinning:

Too cluttered!  :alien:

That's why I never put those hacks into MM. I also don;t think we care who has the most posts and what the recent posts are (as we can tell both by other means on MM)...

Posted by: Cleo_Serapis Sep 3 05, 06:59

Thanks so much Fran!  

Yes - simplicity is a good thing! I will keep looking at sites and as I find them, I'll post the links.

What are the most important areas to showcase on this new 'overlay' page?

1. Poetry forums (which ones and how)? Two separate links: one for Herme's and one for Serens OR one link to the poetry category instead? You can view the links already done in our site maps and graphical index.....

2. Prose forum -  link to Stonehenge forum or to the category instead? You can view the links already done in our site maps and graphical index..... (Remember Loch Ness is a members-only forum).

3. We could even use our existing Home page design without the scrolling effects down the left side?  That area of the page can be re-coded with a few 'special taglines, links' etc.

4. A button, image, link etc of how to contact us with questions.

5. A link to the newbie forum (if we open one up) but we would seriously need to require membership at some point for guests to access this (unless we make it a requirement)?

6. A blurb about our mission.

Would we want to include any images on this overlay page (so its not just all words)?

I can re-arrange the forums. (I might need to re-do all the links though for the site maps). I had it that way at opening actually. Poetry, then prose then the competitions then site info and misc.

If you want, let me know and I'll re-arrange the categories so the "For the Poet in You comes first, followed by the Prose category. I think the Site Info section should follow and then the Comps section. Say the word...

I was thinking of merging Ankgor Watt Accolades into Plato's as is, perhaps if I did that, we could re-use that forum for the newbies and I would post that up top?

What do you think?

Cleo  :pharoah2

Posted by: Cleo_Serapis Sep 3 05, 16:42

OK guys and gals. HONEST feedback please.

I've been working on this most of today (I couldn't help it - honest - the CODE was calling me out)!

Anywho... I'd like to see what you think of it.      :block:

Here is the OVERLAY page I just completed. It can serve as a start for discussion. As a design idea, I took some elements from a few different sites, while maintaining the forum board's look and feel. Trust me, it's ALL HTML hand-coded by the Cleo.  :wave:

Please let me know what you think...    

Click http://www.mosaicmusings.net/overlay.html to view this alternate forum entry page (in draft)...

Cleo  

Posted by: Jox Sep 3 05, 17:07

Hi Lori,

1. I think you're mad - I said you didn't have to do it all yourself.
2. I think you're mad - no one hand-codes any more.
3. I think you've produced something which is far, far better than the board interfaces I've seen before. No, not there yet but very much on the way in my opinion - really well done.

I'm zonked tonight - after flashing, watching cricket, doing some jobs and debating with you about New Orleans. So I won't add anything tonight. But I did want to say I thought this looks really promising and to congratulate you for this big step forward. Thank you very much for your hard work.

Just one point I can say straight away. When one does click a photo line, the result is disappointing. That is because the page one links to appears simply as the blurb at the top (terms / condidtion etc). Can we possibly move all that blurb to the bottom of those pages (yes this is rather different from what you're working on but it occurred to me and so I'm mentioning it now). That would enable the pinned topics to be at the top and others to flow down. The terms and conditions and guidance would still be easily available but youldn't be "in your face".

Thanks again Lori - well done. I'll offer further suggestions asap.
J.

Posted by: Cleo_Serapis Sep 3 05, 18:34

Hello James!

Thanks for replying so quickly! Well, didn't I tell ya that I'm an old fogie when it comes to web page design? It's the only way I know how to write pages and add things to MM.

I think know I'm mad!  :lion: Well, thank you for your confidence in draft #1!

QUOTE

I'm zonked tonight - after flashing, watching cricket, doing some jobs and debating with you about New Orleans. So I won't add anything tonight. But I did want to say I thought this looks really promising and to congratulate you for this big step forward. Thank you very much for your hard work.

I haven't flashed yet myself (or done the TEN) - been working on this !@#$ thing (in a fun way)!

QUOTE

Just one point I can say straight away. When one does click a photo line, the result is disappointing. That is because the page one links to appears simply as the blurb at the top (terms / condidtion etc). Can we possibly move all that blurb to the bottom of those pages (yes this is rather different from what you're working on but it occurred to me and so I'm mentioning it now). That would enable the pinned topics to be at the top and others to flow down. The terms and conditions and guidance would still be easily available but youldn't be "in your face".

This one is a no-can-do because the wording at the top is our forum participation rules (and this is where Ikonboard puts them), and any link into a forum will promptly sit you right at the top (where the legend is --> e.g. Mosaic Musings » For the Poet in You (Poetry Forums) » Herme's Homilies (Rhyme and Meter and FIXED FORM Poetry for Critique) . I figured those were the 'popular forums' so I've placed some images there and ALT tags too when you mouse over the images (with the actual forum names).

QUOTE

Thanks again Lori - well done. I'll offer further suggestions asap.
J.

Thanks! I may send out a mail from my yahoo account tonight to some of our members to refer them to this thread as well.

Have a good night!
Lori  :pharoah:

Posted by: Perrorist Sep 3 05, 19:10

I like the alternative (not alternate) web page but would like to make one suggestion.

Could the captions for the forum images on the right appear below rather than above, which is counter-intuitive. It's not a big deal but I jumped to the wrong forum because I was following the convention of most other sites.

Oh, I've just spotted this. Could FAQ's become FAQs. Thanks.

Posted by: Cleo_Serapis Sep 3 05, 19:17

Thanks very much Perry!  :sun:

Suggest away - that's what this tile is for.  :gandalfg:

Good feedback, I usually have heading above images, however, if others feel this is counter-intuitive too, then it is an easy swirch to make on my part.

I will plan to make that change tothe FAQs heading in the morning per your request.

LOL! Does anyone remember that old 80's flick: Weird Science? It's on tv right now and Peter and I are ROTFLOAO! Hard to imagine that The Dead Zone's Anthony Michael Hall was 1/2 of the science in this movie and also from one of my all-time fav comedies, 'National Lampoon's Vacation'. Gosh, where does the time go?

Back to my silly diversion....

Cheers Perry!
~Cleo  :cheer:

Posted by: Arnfinn Sep 3 05, 23:17

Hi Everybody


Well the click a picture, instant access, is a good start for the visitor to tour the site. Bit of a touchy point-- does the name Mosaic Musings educate the reader? Is an alteration needed? (I dont mean to alter the (Mosaic Musings) part of the title.

I think the changes to the MM opening page, so far, are positive and an improvement.


John

Posted by: Nina Sep 4 05, 00:22

Hi Lori

Well done with all your hard work on the Overlay page it is looking great and a big improvement on the previous graphic interface.

I have to agree with James.  When you click on the lick from Overlay to the forum it is very offputting to be confronting with a huge chunk of writing.  Would it be possible instead to put the forum rules on a separate page and simply have a link to it at the top of each forum page saying "Please read Forum Rules before Posting"  Most people don't read them anyway except when they first start posting and it would look much better when clicking the link to actually see the threads.

Nina

Posted by: Toumai Sep 4 05, 00:29

Hi Lori,

Wow - it looks stunning! Well done! Very neat and attractive.

Would Nina's idea work?

Fran

Posted by: Cleo_Serapis Sep 4 05, 06:16

Posted by: Cleo_Serapis Sep 4 05, 06:27

Hi Nina.  

Thank you very much!  

Old habits die hard - here's the good news: Check out Herme's now. There is an option when adding forum rules to a forum that I never used (until this morning after reading your post here). The one I always used before says,  Show Link to Forum Rules? then there are three options:
1. Yes, show a link
2. No, display the text above the topic list
3. Turn off (Don't show either)

As you can guess, I always chose option 2. I have just edited Herme's with option 1 instead. Now, all you'll see is a link like this at the top:
» Forum Participation Rules (and the words are poofed away)  

If you click the link, the actual rules appear with another link at the end of the text:
Go back to the forum
Golly! It even shows a 'Last Updated' date & time too. (I had to make edits to the rules for our Copyright change back to the original).  :pharoah2  

I've also just added a blurb to that link line so it looks like this now:
» Forum Participation Rules; Please read before posting in this forum

Of course, one can click that link OR use your back arrow on the IE.

Thanks for prodding that request of James'! I will now go and update the rest of the forums with the same process (just a link to the forum rules instead).    

Hope this helps!
Cheers  
~Cleo  

Posted by: Cleo_Serapis Sep 4 05, 06:29

Hi Fran!  :wave:

WOW! Thanks very much!

Yes - Nina's idea worked. Updatingthe forum rules now.

COOOOOOOLLLLLL!  :cool:  ???  :grinning:  :upside:  :oops:  :blush21:

Cheers!
~Cleo  :sings:

Posted by: Cleo_Serapis Sep 4 05, 06:58

There is a BUG in the AURORA skin with this forum rules link change that I am working. I am going to look at the other skins right now to see if this error exists in any of them too.

In the meantime - please go to your control panel and change your board skin to "HomeSkin" until I can fix the issue.

Stay tuned!
Cleo

Posted by: Jox Sep 4 05, 07:09

Reporting: From the new nav page being developed, both poetry forums are accessible using Vile Blue. J.

Posted by: Cleo_Serapis Sep 4 05, 07:44

All skins are fine now with this newest change to hide the text of forum rules and replace it with a link instead.

Great idea! TY James and Nina!

~Cleo

Posted by: Cleo_Serapis Sep 4 05, 08:14

Hi all.

I've made a few tweaks to this alternative page for your review.

http://www.mosaicmusings.net/overlay.html

Thanks!
~Cleo

Posted by: Don Sep 4 05, 15:01

I am not going to be much real help.

First question is what improvement is being sought?  

I strongly disagree with levels of novice/expert display.  Typical problem is repeated assurance the operator wants what they think is being asked for. Helpful for novice but a drag for experienced.  It has to be an upfront tradeoff of how many times you can ask "are you sure" without insulting intelligence.  Access to go back is a powerful expedient.

Verbose is taboo.  Insert lots of links to provide acess to rules, tricks, and boilerplate placed outside of mainstream.

Avoid clutter and extraneous crap.

I think navigation tends to be ponderous, but the fact is the oceans being navigated may require it.  Do we want page notes, footnotes, endnote, or no notes?  

Maybe simply growing up with MM has made my navigation satisfactory.  This is an adult site rather than a mindless entertainment channel.  I honestly believe MM displays are more tasteful than most. They also lead to where we want to go.  Again the question is what improvement is being sought?

An MSN homepage is an example of poor taste packaging of extraneous crap.  Do we want MM to look like another junkyard?

Don

Posted by: Arnfinn Sep 5 05, 01:42

Hi

Don has a few strong views on the subject, which is what we want. I dont think the new page is over the top (my thoughts). For me, the whole idea is to attract a few more people whose interests are directed towards the literary arts. Not looking for a lot of new members of course. I think also that MM should be a good place for those new to poetry who like what they see when they arrive at the site. I wouldn't like to think that this site had standards set that discouraged the newcomer if such standards were not met.



John

Posted by: Cleo_Serapis Sep 5 05, 06:12

Hi Don and John (Arnie).  

Don - Glad to see you again posting! Hope you are feeling better soon!  

The idea for this started many months ago. I'm guessing here that some (more international) visitors are not 'used to' a categorized forum board layout as I have set up on MM. I told those who inquired that I could not really change the actual Ikonboard but perhaps we could have an alternative?

A few had mentioned 'less words' and perhaps some simple image links into the popular forums on MM. I then created the Graphical Forum Index (June) after the survey results came in. You can view this http://www.mosaicmusings.net/ALTindex.htm.

Do you remember the original MM? At start up, I didn't have the following 'category design' on the start page. Instead, I had every forum listed out one by one on the start page. It was so INTIMIDATING! We've ADDED more forums since then too. We now have a total of 56 forums within MM.

These are named as:
[*]Pericle's Preambles (General Site Information)
[*]Mount Olympus (Challenges of God-like Proportions)
[*]Poseidon's Poetry (Poetry forums here)
[*]Pompeii's Prose (Prose forums here)
[*]Atum's Annex (Miscellany)
[*]Mosaic Marketplace (Store and ECards)
[*]The Gilgamesh Gallery (Images to Muse Over)
[*]Ming Tombs (For Members Only)
[*]Mosaic Member Showcase (NEW)

I've never been to ANY other forum board where the layout was not similar. Forums are what they are.  

In any event, at this time, I'm not planning to change the forums URL start page so if you use forums.mosaicmusings.net it will still come here. What I've done is add two alternative viewing pages (the graphical index and the new one I designed Saturday) - which I mention just underneath the LOGO now in Bold Red font on each forum skin.

A couple of other ideas I might do today:
[*]Re-arrange the categories so the Poetry and Prose ones are first & second (really for newbies and guests to MM).
[*]We were thinking of adding a new forum (I would actually re-use Angkor Watt Accolades - move the current posts to Plato's Pearls and then re-describe it as a place for newbies to post) specifically for guests or newbies to MM - where they can post to get their feet wet and we would offer a lighter touch. I would make this one the first category in that case. There are some concerns on my part: What would prevent the guest from just joining up immediately? I don't want the staff to end up having to moderate a guest forum with all their time. Would other members comment if a newbie or guest posted there? How quickly can we move posts if they speak to items we discourage in our Terms of Use policy?
[*]Email the in-active members to welcome them back.

Cheers!
~Cleo  

Posted by: Cleo_Serapis Sep 5 05, 06:38

Hi all.

I've moved all 104 posts (and their replies) from Ankgor Watt Accolades into Plato's Pearls of Wisdom, and added 'seasonal' to Plato's description blurb. I've also put a comment in AWA that the forum might be used for guest/newbie interactions and will be moved elsewhere and have allowed all member groups (guests included) to read, start and reply to topics in that forum in advance of moving it to a new category.

I have also made a few changes to our home page at www.mosaicmusings.net. I've eliminated the sidebar scoller and replaced it with an image (so it's not so off-putting). I've also moved the 'staff' menu to the 'Company' heading and added an advert about Odin's Opposition right on the start page under the "Welcome to MM" message. I also added teh alternative index links to several 'menus' as well.

Stay tuned!
~Cleo  

Posted by: Cleo_Serapis Sep 5 05, 07:50

Hi everyone.

As you like it:

I've re-arranged the categories and added a new one for New Members (which I'll detail later in this tile).

Now, you will see the following categories at the forum start page:
[*]New Member Palace (NEW)
[*]Poseidon's Poetry (Poetry forums here)
[*]Pompeii's Prose (Prose forums here)
[*]Pericle's Preambles (General Site Information)
[*]Mount Olympus (Challenges of God-like Proportions)
[*]Atum's Annex (Miscellany)
[*]Mosaic Marketplace (Store and ECards)
[*]The Gilgamesh Gallery (Images to Muse Over)
[*]Ming Tombs (For Members Only)
[*]Mosaic Member Showcase (NEW)

I've re-used the forum: 'Ankgor Watt Accolades' for the Newbies to MM. All links to each category and forum remain the same, but I will be re-formatting the Site Map so it is in order with this new shuffling.

A few words about this new forum:
It is designed for NEWBIES to MM who may not be confident in where to begin posting. We would like see them perhaps introduce theirselves to MM, ask questions, post their works for our 'tender touch' with the intention of simply getting their feet wet. Guests can also read, reply and start topics in this forum. If we should deem posts inappropriate (based on our TOU), they will be moved into "Ra's Renderings" (the post only, not our feedback) which is accessed by our mentors, with a comment attached - Content not appropriate at MM.

We do not expect existing members to post new topics, but we DO encourage you to REPLY to any threads that are posted to assist in welcoming the newbies (or guests) to MM while they settle in. Thank you Arnfinn (John) for asking about this and to Nina, Jox and Toumai (among others) for your ideas.

We will need to determine at what point the newbies should stop posting in this forum and start posting in the appropriate forums e.g. Herme's, Stonehenge, Plato's Pearls as we get there.

Thanks all!
~Cleo

Posted by: Don Sep 5 05, 11:55

Hi Don and John (Arnie).  

Don - Glad to see you again posting! Hope you are feeling better soon!  

The idea for this started many months ago. I'm guessing here that some (more international) visitors are not 'used to' a categorized forum board layout as I have set up on MM. I told those who inquired that I could not really change the actual Ikonboard but perhaps we could have an alternative?

A few had mentioned 'less words' and perhaps some simple image links into the popular forums on MM. I then created the Graphical Forum Index (June) after the survey results came in. You can view this http://www.mosaicmusings.net/ALTindex.htm.

Do you remember the original MM? At start up, I didn't have the following 'category design' on the start page. Instead, I had every forum listed out one by one on the start page. It was so INTIMIDATING! We've ADDED more forums since then too. We now have a total of 56 forums within MM.

These are named as:
[*]Pericle's Preambles (General Site Information)
[*]Mount Olympus (Challenges of God-like Proportions)
[*]Poseidon's Poetry (Poetry forums here)
[*]Pompeii's Prose (Prose forums here)
[*]Atum's Annex (Miscellany)
[*]Mosaic Marketplace (Store and ECards)
[*]The Gilgamesh Gallery (Images to Muse Over)
[*]Ming Tombs (For Members Only)
[*]Mosaic Member Showcase (NEW)

I've never been to ANY other forum board where the layout was not similar. Forums are what they are.  

In any event, at this time, I'm not planning to change the forums URL start page so if you use forums.mosaicmusings.net it will still come here. What I've done is add two alternative viewing pages (the graphical index and the new one I designed Saturday) - which I mention just underneath the LOGO now in Bold Red font on each forum skin.

A couple of other ideas I might do today:
[*]Re-arrange the categories so the Poetry and Prose ones are first & second (really for newbies and guests to MM).
[*]We were thinking of adding a new forum (I would actually re-use Angkor Watt Accolades - move the current posts to Plato's Pearls and then re-describe it as a place for newbies to post) specifically for guests or newbies to MM - where they can post to get their feet wet and we would offer a lighter touch. I would make this one the first category in that case. There are some concerns on my part: What would prevent the guest from just joining up immediately? I don't want the staff to end up having to moderate a guest forum with all their time. Would other members comment if a newbie or guest posted there? How quickly can we move posts if they speak to items we discourage in our Terms of Use policy?
[*]Email the in-active members to welcome them back.

Cheers!
~Cleo  

Posted by: Jox Sep 5 05, 12:32

Hi Don,

Great to see you! Hope you're feeling a tad better?

Just a couple of points...

1. I would hope that a newcomers' forum - if we create one - would be optional. They could post in any other forum, if they prefer. If, however, it is a guests' forum then they will have to be restricted there.

2. Would I be right in thinking you fear "dumbing-down"? If so, I'd be with you in opposing that. However, I can't see that more attractive, easier navigation - enabling people to reach the posts they wish to quicker and easier is any quality reduction. As Lori says, members who prefer the existing approach will still be able to use it.

3. We live in a visual media age. Obviously, as writers, we appreciate the words. But I read thousands of words on MM weekly - posted creative writing - do I really want to read tedious navigation and rubric? I'm used to navigating through sites using my mouse (tracker ball to be precise) and images. Words get in the way. It is like driving, some direction signs have to be worded but most road signs are pictures - for ease and speed.

Hope that makes some sense?

Best wishes and great to see you, again.

J.

Posted by: Don Sep 5 05, 13:21

Thanks Jox,

Your explanations hint at more than I saw.  The navigation has always been mouse, trackball, or pointer driven.  We agree text driven navigation went with DOS and similar windowless operation systems.

Don