Unfair Trial, A poem Options

[Guest_Jox_*]

© Todd Congreve, 2005. I, Todd Congreve, do assert my right to be identified as the author of this work in accordance with Sections 77 and 78 of The Copyrights, Designs And Patents Act, 1988. (Laws of Cymru & England, as recognised by international treaties). This work was simultaneously copyrighted in the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the United States of America. This work is posted as an unpublished work in order to elicit critical assistance and other helpful comment, only.

Ref: TC 0402 AD

Unfair Trial
by TC

Wording warranted:
poems penned;
scenarios sculpted;
whodunits written.

Circumstances chosen:
manufactured morality;
condemnation complete.

Sentences pronounced...

Did anyone ask the lovers?

(end)

[Guest_Nina_*]

Hi James

Interesting!  Great use of alliteration.  I love

scenarios sculpted; a wonderful way of describing the process of
writing.

manufactured morality
good way of saying morals made up to justify actions or behaviour.

Sentences pronounced...clever double entendre

I think I'm still puzzling over the last line a bit, too late at night and the brain not working.

I'm not getting any concrete thoughts on this, just fleeting ideas.The lovers brings to mind  Romeo and Juliet. It is as if decisions and judgements are made without the central characters being consulted, finding out what they want, control is taken away from them under the umbrella of false morality.

I shall ponder this some more

Nina

[Guest_Zeus²_*]

James,

was this a hasty hookup, or

shotgun satire.

Larry

[Guest_Jox_*]

Hi Larry,

I don't think it was either!

But thanks for the visit and comment.

All the best, J.

[Eisa]

Ref: TC 0402 AD

Unfair Trial
by TC

Wording warranted:
poems penned;
scenarios sculpted;
whodunits written.

Circumstances chosen:
manufactured morality;
condemnation complete.

Sentences pronounced...

Did anyone ask the lovers?

(end)

Hi Jox

I feel a bit like Nina the moment  -- too late to think straight.

I love the words you have used here -- I too was puzzled by the last line, but now I think we are putting too much emphasis on this line. I think it is about us as  writers of stories and poems and about  the control we have over the people/ circumstances in these stories.

I hope I am making myself clear -- it is nearly 2am! Time I went to bed.

Snow

Enjoyed the read.

[Guest_Nina_*]

Hi James

Unfair Trial
by TC

Wording warranted:
poems penned;
scenarios sculpted;
whodunits written.

Circumstances chosen:
manufactured morality;
condemnation complete.

Sentences pronounced...

Did anyone ask the lovers?

A couple of quite different interpretations, the first perhaps fits in better with the last line

The first is looking at relationships and the judgements made when one partner has an affair.  No one knows what goes on "behind closed doors" in a marriage or relationship but everyone is quick to condemn and act all moral, but no one actually asks the lovers themselves.  The gossip-mongers just get busy, wagging tongues, making assumptions manufacturing morality to suit them.


Another interpretation I had was about the way people are tried by the media and condemmed before they even  get the chance to have a fair trial in court and by then it is too late.  Papers, books, tv create their own scenarios and opinions, influencing readers without ever directly speaking to the people they are writing about.  They don't care about finding out the truth. It is all done on assumption and the manufactured morality of the person writing, biased and unfair, but this doesn't fit quite so well with the last line.

Possibly neither are what you intended and it will be interesting to read your intentions.
Nina

[Guest_Jox_*]

Hi Nina,

Thanks for both your fascinating replies - more fascinating, by far, than the poem methinks.

Hope you’ll forgive me if I combine my reply for both your submissions - just to save confusion.
Hi Nina,

>N>Interesting!  Great use of alliteration.  I love
>N>scenarios sculpted; a wonderful way of describing the process of
writing.

Thanks.

>N>manufactured morality
good way of saying morals made up to justify actions or behaviour.

Yes. Here I was thinking of the US style "moral majority" concept. Where people band together in rather unpleasant groupings to denounce lifestyles with which they disagree and claim that such lifestyles are "immoral" as if morality was an absolute (which many actually claim it to be). I see morality as being relative ("Moral Relativism" is a philosophical concept). That is, we all have different views of what is moral. For example, the US “Moral Majority” would denounce much of what I stand for and I would denounce most of their beliefs and arguments, too. No agreement on morality, then.

>N>Sentences pronounced...clever double entendre

Thanks.

>N>I think I'm still puzzling over the last line a bit, too late at night and the brain not working.

The last line is the key to the poem.

>N>I'm not getting any concrete thoughts on this, just fleeting ideas. The lovers brings to mind  Romeo and Juliet. It is as if decisions and judgements are made without the central characters being consulted, finding out what they want, control is taken away from them under the umbrella of false morality.

I had not thought of R&J, actually. However, that is an excellent interpretation. The war of words between the Capulets and Montegues reflected in the alliteration part. Thanks Nina - great idea.

>N>I shall ponder this some more

Thank you.

(all the above relates to your first reply - I wrote it a few hours ago).

>N>A couple of quite different interpretations, the first perhaps fits in better with the last line

OK...

>N>The first is looking at relationships and the judgements made when one partner has an affair. No one knows what goes on "behind closed doors" in a marriage or relationship but everyone is quick to condemn and act all moral, but no one actually asks the lovers themselves. The gossip-mongers just get busy, wagging tongues, making assumptions manufacturing morality to suit them.

Yup, I’d say that is bull’s eye as regards my intention, Nina. Thank you.

>N>Another interpretation I had was about the way people are tried by the media and condemned before they even get the chance to have a fair trial in court and by then it is too late. Papers, books, tv create their own scenarios and opinions, influencing readers without ever directly speaking to the people they are writing about. They don't care about finding out the truth. It is all done on assumption and the manufactured morality of the person writing, biased and unfair, but this doesn't fit quite so well with the last line.

Interesting though - and virtually valid.

>N>Possibly neither are what you intended and it will be interesting to read your intentions.

No you have it...

The catalyst for this poem was a work by Mile (“Billydo“) down in MM’s Sanctuary. (“The Gift”). I didn’t crit Mike on that because the narrative took me back somewhat. I suppose this is my reply to an extent - an acknowledgement that Mike’s poem was very powerful because it sparked strong feelings within me and this poem. Thanks Mike!

However, also various tv drama programmes on about the same time also had an effect.

I feel that all the blanket condemnation of lovers is ludicrous. Human beings are quite complex creatures and (as the cliché goes) there’s more than one side to a story. But writers in all genres seem to take just one side - making writers both a kind of “moral majority” and an enforcer of such. (That is where the media part comes in - so you were right there, too - as regards my intentions, anyway). The legal aspect of the poem relates to the “Trial by Media” aspect as well as more personal trials.

So we have three aspects within the poem: the lovers (about who all the poem relates), Tthe written condemnations (and I took creative writing rather than the press - but, hey, that’s creative writing too, these days) and the law - trial by media and ordeal. (But nothing Masonic intended!)

The last line is the most critical of thw whole poem - everything else rests on that - It seemed time that someone said “But hang on a mo, has anyone asked the lovers why?” - maybe if we stopped to ask “why” we’d understand and realise we were not their moral superiors etc - and maybe, given the same circumstances, we’d be the same.  

So thanks, Mike et al! I appreciate the nudge.

Thanks Nina for your interesting ideas etc - all valid I’d say in various ways.

J.

[Guest_Jox_*]

Hi Eisa,

Thanks for your visit and comments. How are you? Good to see you here again!

>E>I feel a bit like Nina the moment  -- too late to think straight.

err... I try hard never to think "straight."

>E>I love the words you have used here

Thank you.

>E>I too was puzzled by the last line, but now I think we are putting too much emphasis on this line. I think it is about us as  writers of stories and poems and about  the control we have over the people/ circumstances in these stories.

No and yes - but I welcome all interpretations.

But as to what I meant - It is about writers who condemn lovers without investigating the facts. About writers (this may well include me - us all?) who establish ourselves as moralistic and condemn others' morals - when, ironically, we might well do the same in similar circumstances. But we soap-box and we band-wagon and we scape-goat* ; we like to condemn and forge our own morals. So, for me at least, the final line was the poem's fulcrum.

* cliches used deliberately - just as condemnations tend to be cliche.

Where I think you and I might diverge strongly in our interpretations / meanings is that I wrote this because real people - not just characters - were affected by the characterisations written in creative writing. (I can't get angry at pure fiction and I was angry when I wrote this). The fact that Nina brings in the press helps to explain the real-world effects.

>E>I hope I am making myself clear -- it is nearly 2am! Time I went to bed.

Hope you slept well, Eisa. Too hot to Snow tonight!

>E>Enjoyed the read.

Thanks, James.

I'd better just add - in case of any misunderstanding whatsoever - that I was not angry with Mike. Quiet the contrary - I'm very grateful to him for providing the spark to write this. Thanks again, Mike. J.

[Guest_Nina_*]

Hi James

I'm glad I got your meaning eventually.  I knew the last line was the most important to the poem, but I just couldn't grasp it.  It is amazing what a few hours sleep can do. I did think about something else to add while I was walking to the bus stop this morning, but I can't b****y remember what it was.  If it comes back to me I'll post it.  Obviously my brain doesn't like opereating at this time of the night.

It is so true, people love to sit in high moral judgement about the actions of others as you say it gives them a misplaced feeling of superiority and higher morality.  Your poem brings to mind a quotation (which I can't remember exactly) but it is something like " never judge/condemn? someone till you have walked a mile in their shoes"

I enjoyed this


Nina

[Guest_Toumai_*]

Hi James,

I do love the very spare, concise way you use language in much of your poetry. The alliteration here, in particular, is super.

I have, as usual, cheated and read all the other crits. With that hindsight I can see that your last line is less pared than some; moer like 'usual speech;' thus perhaps hinting at its importance (I can think up anything with hindsight and poetic licence ).

I wonder if much of the condemnation is because people feel threatened: 'if it happens with them, it might happen with me?' Society does seem to tie itself in knots over 'moral values' these days. Fear is a very dangerous thing. Well, it's early morning and I'm not making anything useful to add, so I think Nina and Snow did very well to crit at all in the early hours let alone make such excellent points.

Fran

[Guest_Jox_*]

Hi Nina,

>N>I'm glad I got your meaning eventually.  I knew the last line was the most important to the poem, but I just couldn't grasp it.  It is amazing what a few hours sleep can do. I did think about something else to add while I was walking to the bus stop this morning, but I can't b****y remember what it was.  If it comes back to me I'll post it.

Yes, please do!

Glad you got some kip, though!

>F>Obviously my brain doesn't like operating at this time of the night.

Good job you're not a surgeon in an emergency department!

>N>It is so true, people love to sit in high moral judgement about the actions of others; as you say it gives them a misplaced feeling of superiority and higher morality.

Thanks Nina - that was a major message of this, yes.

>N>Your poem brings to mind a quotation (which I can't remember exactly) but it is something like " never judge/condemn? someone till you have walked a mile in their shoes"

I didn't know that but it is excellent. A more cliche one is "People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones" - but, of course, stone-throwers always pretend they are not in glass houses!

Also, of course, what damage have the critics themselves done is another interesting question?

>N>I enjoyed this

Thank you very much, Nina.

And that you for the several visits and hard work you've put in. Much appreciated.

J.

[Guest_Toumai_*]

Biblical versions? Something along the lines of 'Let he who has not sinned cast the first stone'  and 'Judge not, lest ye shall be judged' ?
Fran

[Guest_Jox_*]

Hi Fran,

Thanks for your two posts - I'll answer the first one later.

But for now... yes excellent point. I'm sure the Bible has alternative versions designed to kill people (Eye fo an Eye etc - no idea why anyone calls it "The Good Book") - but your two quotes are excellent, too. Thanks.

J.

[Guest_Jox_*]

Hi Fran,

(Reply to your first post)

>F>I do love the very spare, concise way you use language in much of your poetry. The alliteration here, in particular, is super.

Thank you on both counts.

>F>I have, as usual, cheated and read all the other crits. With that hindsight I can see that your last line is less pared than some; moer like 'usual speech;' thus perhaps hinting at its importance (I can think up anything with hindsight and poetic licence ).

Does that imply poets view life from, and talk our of, their arses?

>F>I wonder if much of the condemnation is because people feel threatened: 'if it happens with them, it might happen with me?' Society does seem to tie itself in knots over 'moral values' these days.

Yes I detest people claiming the moral high ground for their views. Especially when mine are already there!

>F> Fear is a very dangerous thing. Well, it's early morning and I'm not making anything useful to add, so I think Nina and Snow did very well to crit at all in the early hours let alone make such excellent points.

Early morning? Yikes - well that's one Count down anyway.

Thanks Fran, J.

Fran

[Guest_Toumai_*]

Hi James,

Does that imply poets view life from, and talk our of, their arses?

I was purely speaking for myself as a poet, of course.

Fran

[Guest_Jox_*]

:)