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Forum Changes to Poetry Category, Your feedback welcome! |
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Jan 15 05, 10:04
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Mosaic Master
Group: Administrator
Posts: 18,892
Joined: 1-August 03
From: Massachusetts
Member No.: 2
Real Name: Lori Kanter
Writer of: Poetry & Prose
Referred By:Imhotep
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"It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step into the Road, and if you don't keep your feet, there is no knowing where you might be swept off to." ~ J.R.R Tolkien, The Lord of the RingsCollaboration feeds innovation. In the spirit of workshopping, please revisit those threads you've critiqued to see if the author has incorporated your ideas, or requests further feedback from you. In addition, reciprocate with those who've responded to you in kind. "I believe it is the act of remembrance, long after our bones have turned to dust, to be the true essence of an afterlife." ~ Lorraine M. KanterNominate a poem for the InterBoard Poetry Competition by taking into careful consideration those poems you feel would best represent Mosaic Musings. For details, click into the IBPC nomination forum. Did that poem just captivate you? Nominate it for the Faery award today! If perfection of form allured your muse, propose the Crown Jewels award. For more information, click here! "Worry looks around, Sorry looks back, Faith looks up." ~ Early detection can save your life.MM Award Winner
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Guest_Toumai_*
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Jan 15 05, 11:17
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Guest
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Hi Cleo,
MM certainly is a little daunting at first glance, but with familiarity it is far easier (and much quicker) to navigate than some sites.
It would seem like an excellent idea to combine some of the lesser-used forums.
As regards changing Homers and Socrates I cannot comment, except that in my brief glance at the latter the crits do not seem to be much different than in the former, at least to my inexperienced eye.
My natural home would currently be in freeform poetry, but I think that we can all learn, so I am not so sure about separating form and non-form - lest I become too nervous to ever visit the latter.
Those are my first thoughts on this.
Regards, Fran
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Guest__*
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Jan 15 05, 13:50
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Guest
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Dear Cleo,
Suddenly, I KNOW why MM site navigation is so hard !
On many poetry sites, eg Poem train, the MAIN group heading AND the sub headings AND the description/instructs are all visible at the same time, while here, we only have the MAIN HEADING, then we have to click and search the sub-headings separately.
The nearest we get to a full, easy-to-follow listing is the "Forum Jump" place, where there is a bare skeletal version, of headings only, of what Poem Train supplies in its main listings.
I've been here since nearly day 1, and I was lost the other day trying to find where the archives were hidden !
Cleo, have a look at Poem Train at http://www.poemtrain.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi to see what I mean.
As to amending Homer & Socrates, I agree that the level of crit is pretty damn good, and deep, in both, and have noted that the amount of traffic in Soc is derisory.
My only problem with the proposed change is, I can't say that I know what is a structed or form poem from a not- one !
Would Homer be strictly for vilanelles, sonnets, haiku and limericks (etc) ? Or would any say 4-line x 4 poem qualify ? Rhymed or not ? Opportunities for more confusion, I'd say.
My way to go would be to have 3 separate AND EQUAL posting forums, A, B and C, so that prolific poets like Jox and Cleo and me could in effect rotate them, and post one poem a day. I have to confess I have found it frustrating to have to wait 3 days to post another, when I might have written 4 in a day, and going to the present Soc has not worked because of the low traffic volume, caused I think by other poets' trepidation re the heavy crit rules. So barely any crit there at all.
If we had 3 equal fora (um, is that right ? ) then we would also avoid slap on the wrist situations where a poem is deemed to be in the "wrong" one ! (Cuz my wrists hurt easy). Thus we simplify even more.
We could run a comp to name the new ABC fora, say Archimedes, Boccaccio and Copernicus ?
Love Alan (profesional simpleton)
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Guest_Nina_*
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Jan 15 05, 16:17
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Guest
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Hi Cleo
It does seem a good idea to combine some of the lesser used forums.
Being new to the site, I haven't yet worked out the difference between Homer's gentle crit and Socrates complex one except to say that the words complex critique means it is quite a daunting prospect to post there. I am not very adventurous and tend to stick to just the one forum - Homer's, which I get a lot of enjoyment form.
Like Alan, I do not know what is a form poem and what is not, so I wouldn't be sure where to post
Nina
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Guest_Jox_*
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Jan 15 05, 16:29
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Guest
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Hi all & Lori, Alan, Nina,
The division into form / non-form was my way of trying to make the poetry section work better. In many ways, the ideal would be just one forum for poetry. However, that would mean too many poems in one forum - they would disappear too quickly; many with inadequate crit.
So suggestions for divisions within poetry crit are needed. Alan has made some interesting ones which seem very worthy of consideration; though there are problems with that suggestion too, of course. ("Of course," because nothing will be perfect - just looking for best possible improvement).
I'm going over to look at the place Alan suggested and to think about that.
What do others think please? Any other solutions?
James. ========================================================
PS Alan - just been to poet train and couldn't understand anything there at all. Are you a member because, certainly as a non-member I couldn't get anywhere. Seemed quite depressing - never found any of the forums ???
James.
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Jan 15 05, 17:06
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Mosaic Master
Group: Administrator
Posts: 18,892
Joined: 1-August 03
From: Massachusetts
Member No.: 2
Real Name: Lori Kanter
Writer of: Poetry & Prose
Referred By:Imhotep
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Thanks all so far for your responses!
I've also heard privately from a few other members and perhaps what they've written to me may make more sense regarding a new division of Homers and Socrates?
Homers would be the place for R & M (rhyme & meter) poetry. This would include formal types of poetry like haiku, rondeau, sonnets, villanelles, pantoums, cinquains etc... as well as simple rhyming poems in the form of couplets or quatrains.
Socrates would be the place for FV (free verse) poetry. This would include those poems where there are no rhymed lines, patterns or formal poetic styles applied.
In both forums, the same rules of critique would apply. One member suggests that we create a star system or something along those lines so the writers can designate the level of crit they desire from a scale of 1,2 and 3 stars (for example) ~ mild, moderate and complex.
I'd still keep the same forum rules though 1:3:2 (sorry Alan), and am considering an 'archive' of the current posts in Homers and Socrates so we start fresh again....
What do you think?
P.S. Alan - I also could not access Poem Train since I am not a member there.
~Cleo :pharoah2
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"It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step into the Road, and if you don't keep your feet, there is no knowing where you might be swept off to." ~ J.R.R Tolkien, The Lord of the RingsCollaboration feeds innovation. In the spirit of workshopping, please revisit those threads you've critiqued to see if the author has incorporated your ideas, or requests further feedback from you. In addition, reciprocate with those who've responded to you in kind. "I believe it is the act of remembrance, long after our bones have turned to dust, to be the true essence of an afterlife." ~ Lorraine M. KanterNominate a poem for the InterBoard Poetry Competition by taking into careful consideration those poems you feel would best represent Mosaic Musings. For details, click into the IBPC nomination forum. Did that poem just captivate you? Nominate it for the Faery award today! If perfection of form allured your muse, propose the Crown Jewels award. For more information, click here! "Worry looks around, Sorry looks back, Faith looks up." ~ Early detection can save your life.MM Award Winner
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Guest_Jox_*
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Jan 15 05, 17:17
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Guest
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Lori...
That makes things simpler. A slight problem, though. What about hybrid poems where parts rhyme and parts don't... I would suggest that is within the spirit of free verse - i.e. not a "proper" rhyme scheme so ought to go in with FreeVerse. Make sense? (These do exist - I have a few on MM already).
Tha archive is essential - without it the start will be very muddy and no one can sensibly plot through 1,000 + poems to sort them. An archive allows comment etc as an active forum would and, if we're desperate to pull an old poem out it will go to the top of the pile, so be seen anyway on the new postings list. We could even bring old poems into the new forum if we wanted more advice - so nothing lost at all. A fresh start would be ideal I think.
James.
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Jan 15 05, 17:44
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Mosaic Master
Group: Administrator
Posts: 18,892
Joined: 1-August 03
From: Massachusetts
Member No.: 2
Real Name: Lori Kanter
Writer of: Poetry & Prose
Referred By:Imhotep
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Hello James.
Yes - that seems fair - partial rhyme would still be considered FV if no metrical pattern exists otherwise...
Regarding the archiving: I would most likely lose Homers and Socrates as the posting forums (perhaps use Alan's ideas for naming the TWO forums? As you can see - I like to use words starting with same letters.
Maybe in starting 'FRESH' I would move back all the posts started in 2005 January so there are some poems to start with?
I would make the 'archive' forum for MEMBERS only as well... And YES, anyone could still go in them and comment/crit existing posts but I would restrict the archive forum(s) so no 'New Topics' could be started in them. This would remind members to go into the new Homers and Socrates for New Topic postings and reserve the old ones for comments only.....
Sound good? ~Cleo
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"It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step into the Road, and if you don't keep your feet, there is no knowing where you might be swept off to." ~ J.R.R Tolkien, The Lord of the RingsCollaboration feeds innovation. In the spirit of workshopping, please revisit those threads you've critiqued to see if the author has incorporated your ideas, or requests further feedback from you. In addition, reciprocate with those who've responded to you in kind. "I believe it is the act of remembrance, long after our bones have turned to dust, to be the true essence of an afterlife." ~ Lorraine M. KanterNominate a poem for the InterBoard Poetry Competition by taking into careful consideration those poems you feel would best represent Mosaic Musings. For details, click into the IBPC nomination forum. Did that poem just captivate you? Nominate it for the Faery award today! If perfection of form allured your muse, propose the Crown Jewels award. For more information, click here! "Worry looks around, Sorry looks back, Faith looks up." ~ Early detection can save your life.MM Award Winner
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Guest_Jox_*
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Jan 15 05, 17:50
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Guest
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Sounds excellent.
Why not restrict "starting" posts to 2005 (i.e. Jan). That seems an ideal new start. We're already two weeks in and most poems start sinking within that time anyway (although the new system might actually give them greater longevity because Homer's will be under much reduced pressure).
"Yes - that seems fair - partial rhyme would still be considered FV if no metrical pattern exists otherwise..."
To be parochical that would certainly suit me - I haven't yet been accused of employing any metrical pattern (I'm still working in yards).
Members only archives and no new threads / tiles would be essential, else we'll start tripping up over the archives.
James.
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Guest__*
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Jan 15 05, 17:54
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Guest
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Dear Cleo and Jox,
I'm bothered by making posting rules based upon poetry-technical criteria.
I know this is laughable, but, rather like I speak English quite well from long practise, experience and innate "nous", thus with poetry.
As an example, here is a phrase from Jox's last post :
partial rhyme would still be considered FV if no metrical pattern exists otherwise...
Huh ?
I can guarantee that I will make mistakes, or that I and others will be so uncertain that some will not post much at all. Many poets write "from the heart", not from a text-book, and I and many others pick up some of these details of knowledge, form etc through crits on places like MM, ONCE WE HAVE DARED POST.
This is a plea for simplicity. At least easy/hard crit was simple ! And most plumped for easy.
Love Alan
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Guest_Jox_*
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Jan 15 05, 18:01
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Guest
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Hi Alan, actually that was a quote from Lori's post above mine.
But I see your point. emm??? Thinking... (may take some time!)
James.
OK, Lori, in that specific case was answering my question about poems which partially rhyme and partially don't. Nevertheless, that does not address your real point.
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Guest__*
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Jan 15 05, 18:05
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Guest
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Dear Jox,
My point in essence :
Do I want simple or harsh crit - um, the first. Easy choice.
Did I write metrical (whatever that is) a form (I knew only a few, mainly obscure Welsh ones ! ) rhymed, trochaic, blunderbussed, where do I post this , er um, ah fergeddit.
Love Alan
I still think 3 fora for all would work, no decision, easy peasy.
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Jan 15 05, 18:05
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Mosaic Master
Group: Administrator
Posts: 18,892
Joined: 1-August 03
From: Massachusetts
Member No.: 2
Real Name: Lori Kanter
Writer of: Poetry & Prose
Referred By:Imhotep
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Potential NEW forum names for FV poetry:
Hadrian's Homiles
Hannibal's Homiles
Hermia's Homiles
Hydra's Homiles
Ptolemy's Perusings
Potential NEW forum names for R & M poetry:
Sargon's Synapse
Spartacus' Synapse
Seren's Synapse Napolean's Synapse or someting with an "s"
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"It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step into the Road, and if you don't keep your feet, there is no knowing where you might be swept off to." ~ J.R.R Tolkien, The Lord of the RingsCollaboration feeds innovation. In the spirit of workshopping, please revisit those threads you've critiqued to see if the author has incorporated your ideas, or requests further feedback from you. In addition, reciprocate with those who've responded to you in kind. "I believe it is the act of remembrance, long after our bones have turned to dust, to be the true essence of an afterlife." ~ Lorraine M. KanterNominate a poem for the InterBoard Poetry Competition by taking into careful consideration those poems you feel would best represent Mosaic Musings. For details, click into the IBPC nomination forum. Did that poem just captivate you? Nominate it for the Faery award today! If perfection of form allured your muse, propose the Crown Jewels award. For more information, click here! "Worry looks around, Sorry looks back, Faith looks up." ~ Early detection can save your life.MM Award Winner
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Guest_Jox_*
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Jan 15 05, 18:09
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Guest
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Hi Alan,
Sorry - yes, I understood your point very well. I just don't have a reply for you. Still thinking. Sorry, takes ages. Lori any comment?
James.
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Jan 15 05, 18:11
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Mosaic Master
Group: Administrator
Posts: 18,892
Joined: 1-August 03
From: Massachusetts
Member No.: 2
Real Name: Lori Kanter
Writer of: Poetry & Prose
Referred By:Imhotep
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Oops! Now you two have been busy posting whilst I type, tap tap....
AS to R & M - simple: If your poem has end rhymes and/or is of a formal poetic style then R & M is the forum..
If your poem has no rhyming end lines or metrical unit (like a quatrain or couplet) and various line lengths and stanza lengths, then it would be a FV post....
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"It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step into the Road, and if you don't keep your feet, there is no knowing where you might be swept off to." ~ J.R.R Tolkien, The Lord of the RingsCollaboration feeds innovation. In the spirit of workshopping, please revisit those threads you've critiqued to see if the author has incorporated your ideas, or requests further feedback from you. In addition, reciprocate with those who've responded to you in kind. "I believe it is the act of remembrance, long after our bones have turned to dust, to be the true essence of an afterlife." ~ Lorraine M. KanterNominate a poem for the InterBoard Poetry Competition by taking into careful consideration those poems you feel would best represent Mosaic Musings. For details, click into the IBPC nomination forum. Did that poem just captivate you? Nominate it for the Faery award today! If perfection of form allured your muse, propose the Crown Jewels award. For more information, click here! "Worry looks around, Sorry looks back, Faith looks up." ~ Early detection can save your life.MM Award Winner
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Guest_Nina_*
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Jan 15 05, 18:15
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Guest
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Hi Lori and James
I'm with Alan on this. Simplicity please. At the moment my mouse knows to go straight to Homer (actually Homer's is on my favourites). and I can get there with 2 clicks.
With the changes, instead of posting in one forum, I will have to post in 2, depending on whether my poem is in rhyme or free verse.
My next question is - if I post a rhyming poem in one forum will I have to wait 3 days before posting a free verse poem in the other forum?
Nina
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Guest_Jox_*
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Jan 15 05, 18:15
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Guest
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Well, yes that does seem simple sense to me, Lori - good.
Is that really confusing, Alan? I know that you won't be confused by it but I realise that you're trying to speak for others who might be...
James.
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Guest_Jox_*
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Jan 15 05, 18:21
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Guest
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Hi Nina.
I like the idea of simplicity, too. But the present system is not working.
Socrates (which you say you are unsure of) is dying.
OK, we could just have one forum but each member would see their poem disappear faster than at present with possibly fewer crits.
So I think we do need two to three forums.
Next question (if one accepts that) how to divide them.
Is Lori's latest post (above yours) not simple?
I would have thought that one member could then post a poem in one forum and another in the other virtually simultaneously if they wishes - each forum having seperate three day rules.
I take Alan's point and it seems to have a lot going for it but I just wonder if most people would end-up migrating to just one forum after a while?
James.
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Jan 15 05, 18:33
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Mosaic Master
Group: Administrator
Posts: 18,892
Joined: 1-August 03
From: Massachusetts
Member No.: 2
Real Name: Lori Kanter
Writer of: Poetry & Prose
Referred By:Imhotep
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Hello Nina!
Hmmm - I will ask Eric and Ron to assist me with a better definition of R & M v. FV..
As for posting rules - each forum has their own rules and the same would apply in the two new forums:
The *1:3:2 rule applies here. You may post (1) thread every (3) days with at least (2) critiques to other's works. Post no more than 1 poem per 3 day period - with the required 2 replies.
There is no cross-over or waiting required of the forums as each is unique with its own rules, so YES by all means, each of us can post in Homers and Socrates and Stonehenge and Loch Ness etc... on the same day BUT the individual forums each have their own rules. In Homer's one post every three days with two crits. Same in Socrates etc....
Does that help?
Cleo
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"It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step into the Road, and if you don't keep your feet, there is no knowing where you might be swept off to." ~ J.R.R Tolkien, The Lord of the RingsCollaboration feeds innovation. In the spirit of workshopping, please revisit those threads you've critiqued to see if the author has incorporated your ideas, or requests further feedback from you. In addition, reciprocate with those who've responded to you in kind. "I believe it is the act of remembrance, long after our bones have turned to dust, to be the true essence of an afterlife." ~ Lorraine M. KanterNominate a poem for the InterBoard Poetry Competition by taking into careful consideration those poems you feel would best represent Mosaic Musings. For details, click into the IBPC nomination forum. Did that poem just captivate you? Nominate it for the Faery award today! If perfection of form allured your muse, propose the Crown Jewels award. For more information, click here! "Worry looks around, Sorry looks back, Faith looks up." ~ Early detection can save your life.MM Award Winner
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