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Posted by: Nina Jul 16 05, 17:03

Hi J

Sorry to be awkward - I love Bond films for their escapist comedy but hate the books. (John LeCarre famously called them "Candy Floss"). Also, I don't really like books about or with children.
LOL, you're not being awkward.  You like what you like and hate what you hate.  Since you don't like books about or with children,  I'll shut up as I only tend to read books with or about children.

To be positive, I am most interested in characterisation and motive - which is one reason why espionage is fascinating. I don't really like much action in books - although some action does show character and advance the plot (though I'm not gripped by plot either.) Does this help: Love Inspector Morse (especially tv), hate Agatha Christie's books?
I get completely lost in espionage.  I get totally confused as to who is on what side.  I enjoyed Agatha Christie when I was about 14, though I couldn't read her books now.  I've never watched Inspector Morse.  Characterisation is good up to a point, to create 3 dimensional realistic characters but there does need to be some action to keep the attention going.  I hate books that get bogged down in details and description.  I lose interest quickly.  I like a book that keeps you gripped and reluctant to put it down.

Nina

Posted by: Jox Jul 16 05, 17:12

Hi Nina

>N>I like a book that keeps you gripped and reluctant to put it down.

Of course - I completely agree. I think the only difference is that action and plot don't do that for me, whereas a detailed look at characters and their ideas, motivations and so on does. I find most action-espionage books silly. (Eg Alistair McClain, F Forsyth). And I'm not into whodunnits - even with Morse on tv, I don't care who did it - just find the characters fascinating.

I certainly don't want you to shut up - have fascinating discussions. But years of facing and dealing with hundreds of children daily put me off ever having them myself or ever wanting to read about them. However, as long as they are interesting characters and not at all childish, that's fine.

I hate books which are bogged down in stated description, too. We have to see the characters under pressure, in conflict and so on - but the action necessary to show this can be minimal.

J.

Posted by: Jox Jul 16 05, 16:41

Hi Nina,

Sorry to be awkward - I love Bond films for their escapist comedy but hate the books. (John LeCarre famously called them "Candy Floss"). Also, I don't really like books about or with children.

To be positive, I am most interested in characterisation and motive - which is one reason why espionage is fascinating. I don't really like much action in books - although some action does show character and advance the plot (though I'm not gripped by plot either.) Does this help: Love Inspector Morse (especially tv), hate Agatha Christie's books?

Posted by: Nina Jul 16 05, 14:51

Hi J

Yup, I think you've convinced me that Potter certainly isn't for me - thanks! (mean it, saves the pain of trying to read it).
LOL, it seems like you're best keeping well clear of HP given your dislike of all the subjects covered.  Perhaps  Anthony Horowitz - Alex Ryder series is more your type of read (very popular especially with boys) sort of boy meets James Bond.  MI6, spies, double dealing.  Not my cup of tea, like James Bond Alex gets out of tricky situations a bit too conveniently.

Oooer I think I spend too much time reading children's books

Nina

Posted by: Jox Jul 16 05, 14:34

Ah!

Thanks Nina - you've explained it all!

>N>for a start, like a lot of books you need to read more than 5 pages to get into the story.

No it wasn't getting into it that was the problem - it was lasting for a whole five pages whilst desperate to escape: I hated it.

>N> People like it because it deals with magic, fantasy, boarding school, wicked uncle (ergo wicked step-mothers)

Well, there's four subject which don't appeal. Magic and fantasy never have. I try to escape school things and Wicked Uncle sounds too much like pantos (I hated pantos, even as a child).

>N> good v. evil,

Yup, OK most things deal with that - but I don't really believe in absolutes. (Sometime hard not to, I know).

>N>adventure, mystery, narrow escapes - I could go on.

Nope not really my things either. Mystery might be - but has to be human, not magical. Adventure - ok if excellent characters. I'm into John LeCarre, not thriller writers.

>N> It isn't necessarily the best writing around but it does get children (and adults) excited about reading in a way that no other author has done since perhaps Enid Blyton (I read every book of hers that I could lay my hands on)

I liked Brer Rabbit but didn't like Famous Five and Secret Seven (dog excepted) nor Noddy. But the three Brer Rabbit books (Based on the American Uncle Remus stories) I loved.

Yup, I think you've convinced me that Potter certainly isn't for me - thanks! (mean it, saves the pain of trying to read it).

J.

Posted by: Nina Jul 16 05, 14:22

Hi J
oh dear... Harry Potter - now perhaps you'll tell me why people like reading that? I'm just as bemused. I tried five pages and had to escape.
for a start, like a lot of books you need to read more than 5 pages to get into the story.  People like it because it deals with magic, fantasy, boarding school, wicked uncle (ergo wicked step-mothers) good v. evil, adventure, mystery, narrow escapes - I could go on.  It isn't necessarily the best writing around but it does get children (and adults) excited about reading in a way that no other author has done since perhaps Enid Blyton (I read every book of hers that I could lay my hands on)

Nina

P.S.  apologies Grace for hyjacking your tile.

Posted by: Cybele Jul 15 05, 16:16

Hi This has been copied because a debate arose (!)

If you wish to crit Grace's work please go to the topic "Rose," listed in FreeVerse and offer your crit there. Thank you. J.

ROSE


Her flame hair;
like tongues of fire
fanned by the  breeze,
licks at cornstalks
as she races barefoot
through a summer field.

A golden child;
supple as a dancer,
nimble as a stream
she dances to nature’s tune;
head thrown back to
commune with clouds.

At dusk the flame dwindles.
Swinging her high onto
my shoulders I bear
my drooping Rose homeward
with her pockets full of daisies.

(All rights reserved by Grace Galton as an unpublished work)

Posted by: Nina Jul 15 05, 16:25

Hi Grace

A sweet lovely poem of childhood innocence, imagination and energy.  It reminds me of times spent with my children making daisy chains to wear round their necks and kept till they wilted and died.

No nits, just enjoyment

Nina

Posted by: Cybele Jul 15 05, 16:31

Hi Nina,

Posted by: Nina Jul 15 05, 16:35

Hi Grace

Hope you have a wonderful holiday.  Are you riding the waves?  Don't forget your notepad to capture those moments of inspiration.

Nina

Posted by: Jul 15 05, 17:08

Dear Grace,

ROSE

Her flame hair;
like tongues of fire
fanned by the breeze,
licks at cornstalks
as she races barefoot
through a summer field.

A golden child;
supple as a dancer,
nimble as a stream -- avoid 2nd "as" - how bout "like" ?
dances to nature’s tune; -- I think I'd start line with "she" ?
head thrown back to -- head thrown back
commune with clouds. -- communing with the clouds ?

At dusk the flame dwindles. -- semi-c - there seems to be continuance in next sentence ?
Swinging her high onto -- no cap
my shoulders I bear
my drooping rose homeward -- Rose in caps ?
with pockets full of daisies. -- her pockets ? my pockets ?

As you know, Grace, toss it all if you so wish !

Love
Alan

Posted by: Cybele Jul 15 05, 17:47

Hello Alan,

Think I'll keep the second 'as' Alan, for the rhythm.

L4 Yes, I like she at the beginning, after the two shorter preceding lines.

I had considered communing Alan, but I am not too fond of 'ing' words. I know they are considered feminine rhymes but this whole poem is feminine so I don't want to gild the lily too much (or in this instance, the rose.    )

QUOTE

At dusk the flame dwindles. -- semi-c - there seems to be continuance in next sentence ?
Swinging her high onto -- no cap
my shoulders I bear
my drooping rose homeward -- Rose in caps ?
with pockets full of daisies. -- her pockets ? my pockets ?

L1 I used a full stop here because I considered this a complete action. Rather like a puppy, this small child has used up every bit of energy and collapsed in a heap of tiredness. After this complete picture the narrator then goes into action.

I deliberately didn't use a capital r for rose because, although that is the child's name, the father is referring to her as a flower folding at the end of the day. Would that still warrant a capital R do you think Alan?

Ooops! This last line is what gave me the poem and it SHOULD read
With her pockets full of daisies. Glad you spotted it Alan. Thank you.

Posted by: Cybele Jul 15 05, 18:01

[b]HiNina,

We will be a group of 16 friends and family in two chartered yachts sailing around Majorca. Usually finish up with a water bomb fight after the final race!
Last year my son Sean decided to spice up the water bombs with tomato puree (to simulate blood, he says). It was great fun till we had to swab the decks.  

Have copied the times ten challenge words in case I have a idle moment. Hope to get some good pics too.

Posted by: Jul 15 05, 18:06

Dear Grace,

OK on all the points, but I would cap Rose, yes, it could be ref to a flower, but since the name seems to be in the title, I would accept it as a name, and expect the cap - otherwise it seems to snag attention, thus spoiling the flow.

Or -- without cap it snags, with cap it obviously means the girl's name, but can still bear that other connotation as well.

Love
Alan

Btw, I meant to say earlier, for quite a few lines I thought this was a poem about a brush fire ! With very little change, it could be ....

Posted by: Cybele Jul 16 05, 02:07

Hello Alan,

Last round up before I set off.

Posted by: Jox Jul 16 05, 02:44

Hi Grace -

Suggestions: [add] {omit} (comments) - as always, As You Like It.

For V1 I have simply shown the suggestions.

ROSE (Good, strong, simple title - but did mislead me - Until the second verse, I thought this was about a rose flower in a cornfield).

Suggestion - V1

Her flame hair -
tongues of fire,
fanned by breezes,
licks at cornstalks
as she races barefoot
through Summer’s field.

I suggested the punctuation because I fine this too long to read so was taking breaths anywhichwhere.

I think using “summer’s” gives the poem a rather more philosophical stance without damaging the message, Perhaps expands it to mean all of her childhood.

“the” jarred me and all that was needed was to make “breezes” plural. Besides, the best Summer’s breeze is actually air wafting hither and thither.

Suggest capitalising “Summer”

{she dances}[dancing]  to nature’s tune;

At dusk {the} flame {dwindles} [flickers OR falters].
Swinging her high onto
my shoulders[,] (line split)
I bear my drooping Rose (line split)
homeward[,] {with} her pockets full of daisies.

(“Drooping Rose” - brill phrase)

Thus:

At dusk flame flickers.
Swinging her high onto my shoulders,
I bear my drooping Rose
homeward...
her pockets full of daisies.

Thanks for the read of this gentle and lovely poem, Grace.

J.

Posted by: Billydo Jul 16 05, 03:58

Delightfully innocent depiction of a child. This something wonderful about watching a played-out child slump into sleep in your arms, or the sudden shift in weight as they drift-off on your shoulders. Caught here.

Brill!

Posted by: Jox Jul 16 05, 04:08

>M>Delightfully innocent depiction of a child. This something wonderful about watching a played-out child slump into sleep in your arms, or the sudden shift in weight as they drift-off on your shoulders. Caught here.

Well, yes but if the sleeping dead-weight is anything like my English Setters, when sleeping on me, it hurts, too! (They also jerk their heads betwixt my shoulder and chest, thus bashing my nose).

Posted by: Jul 16 05, 04:18

Dear Grace,

You are quite right, I did not say it was good.

I suppose I've become blase - ALL you stuff is good, otherwise I would not wish to "polish" up the facets !

Have a lovely sail holiday. Rather you than me !

Love
Alan

Posted by: Nina Jul 16 05, 11:01

Hi Grace, Mike, James

>M>Delightfully innocent depiction of a child. This something wonderful about watching a played-out child slump into sleep in your arms, or the sudden shift in weight as they drift-off on your shoulders. Caught here.

Well, yes but if the sleeping dead-weight is anything like my English Setters, when sleeping on me, it hurts, too! (They also jerk their heads betwixt my shoulder and chest, thus bashing my nose).
yes, a sleeping child can be heavy (never been nose-butted though) but as Mike says there is something wonderful about watching and feeling a child fall asleep in your arms, on your shoulder or chest, a feeling of the total trust they put in you to look after them, protect them.  The warmth and tranquillity coming from them.  I'm sure despite the discomfort you get the same feeling with your Setters.

Nina

Posted by: Jox Jul 16 05, 13:31

Hi Nina...

Wonderful about a child???

You have me totally flumoxed there!

Two words I would never associate. :)

I usually get a feeling of indigestion from my setters!

J.

Posted by: Nina Jul 16 05, 13:40

Hi J

Wonderful about a child???

You have me totally flumoxed there!

Two words I would never associate. :)
LOL.  My two children are wonderfully quiet today.  Both have spent the day lying next to each other on my bed, noses deeply buried in the latest Harry Potter book

I usually get a feeling of indigestion from my setters!
ouch!

Nina

Posted by: Jox Jul 16 05, 14:11

Nina,

oh dear... Harry Potter - now perhaps you'll tell me why people like reading that? I'm just as bemused. I tried five pages and had to escape.

J.

Posted by: Jul 16 05, 14:16

Dear Crazy Ones,

Indigestion from setters ? The PERFECT answer :





is











coming












up











in just












a












mo' :












settLers !

Love
Alan

Posted by: Jox Jul 16 05, 17:13

Alan,

I've just noticed "Settlers" - ouch! LOL.

J.

Posted by: Nina Jul 16 05, 17:29

Hi J

We have to see the characters under pressure, in conflict and so on - but the action necessary to show this can be minimal.
If the action is minimal how do you go about developing the characters, yet advance and keep the plot moving, convince the reader that the story is heading somewhere and keep him/her interested enough to read through over 300 odd pages of a book?  How do you avoid conversations being trite and irrelevant?

Nina

Posted by: Jox Jul 16 05, 17:49

Hi Nina,

Excellent question.

I think the best thing which I can do is to recommend reading LeCarre (say "Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Spy"). He is supreme at that. There is a plot and action - even murders. But essentially it is highly character-orientated.

No, a whole novel cannot realistically be based only on conversations - such would not work. But, then again, conversations can be between different people, in different places about different subjects with different inter-relations and pressures.

Personally I'm not interested in reading a moving plot or the story going anywhere - if I find fascinating characters I can read forever. If I detect only plot / action I lose interest.

However, I admit that, in terms of writing, I have to use more plot than I personally like reading, simply because most people have different tastes from me.

You mention conversations becoming trite and irrelevant. But irrelevant to what? I don't care if they don't drive the plot - but I do care if they don't develop the characters.

Fascinating, thanks.

J.

Posted by: Nina Jul 17 05, 01:07

Hi J

I think a good book needs to get the balance right between characterisation and storyline.  It is important to get into the psyche of the characters, especially the main one - to be able to "to get under his/her skin" feel that you know him/her very well so that as a reader I can put myself into their experience, feel what the character is feeling.   I also like to see in my mind what is happening.  I need to feel the story is going somewhere, that there is a reason to keep on reading to the end. I hate coming to the end of a book and thinking "yes, it was quite interesting psychologically but nothing happened" or hmmm I could just as well have sat on the tube and listened to two strangers having a conversation and then made up a life for them (quite good fun to do).

Reading is a form of escapism, to live out for a short while an experience that I wouldn't normally have. If I don't get that experience I feel cheated. When I get to the end of a book I like to feel that I wish the book had not finished. I also quite like to have learnt something I didn't know so accuracy is important particularly for historical novels.

Why I enjoy children's books more than adult is that there seems to be much more originality and freedom for imagination/fantasy.  Adult fiction can often be very formulaic, the storyline/plot very predictable. Having said that I did read a highly original, gripping love story on holiday - The Time Travellers Wife, which was very cleverly done and had (in my opinion) a good balance of characterisation and plot, though there were a couple of things she wrote in that I thought did nothing for the story and in fact spoilt it a bit.

As you said fascinating discussion, thanks

Nina

Posted by: Toumai Jul 17 05, 01:49

Hi, Grace
This is so lovely - can really see the child so exuberant and then so sleepy; beautiful descriptions. No suggestions - I enjoyed this very much. My only even slightly negative comment would be that I take 'barefoot' in conjunction with 'cornfield' as poetic licence - I've tried it and it hurts!

Hi, James, Nina
what a fascinating discussion about what makes for good reading. I think I'm more inclined to Nina's view - but the world would be a very boring place if we all likes the same things (and there'd be no hope at all for all wannabe novelists).

Fran

Posted by: Jox Jul 17 05, 02:37

Hi Nina,

This discussion is great in Grace's tile and she's gone away I think - but sometime I'll move it to de-clutter her tile. I think it deserves moving, rather than scrapping - it is worth reading (I hope!). Anyway, for now, to continue...

>N>I think a good book needs to get the balance right between characterisation and storyline.

I would approach that t'other way round - a book needs a storyline to help the characters.

>N>It is important to get into the psyche of the characters, especially the main one - to be able to "to get under his/her skin" feel that you know him/her very well so that as a reader I can put myself into their experience, feel what the character is feeling.

OK, well I don't actually put myself in any characters - I want to know what makes them tick, from their perspective, not mine. But that mention of the one character is what is wrong with so many novels for me - they rely on just one character - that never works for me.

>N>I also like to see in my mind what is happening.  I need to feel the story is going somewhere, that there is a reason to keep on reading to the end.

Interesting characters do that for me.

>N>I hate coming to the end of a book and thinking "yes, it was quite interesting psychologically but nothing happened" or...

LOl we are different. Lots happen on Bond books but, for me, they are utterly dire. No characterisation of any real merit - "Candy Floss" as LeCarre said. I really don't care about action - in fact, I'd prefer to see Bond on tv for that fun. (And the characters are better-developed anyway).

>N>hmmm I could just as well have sat on the tube and listened to two strangers having a conversation and then made up a life for them (quite good fun to do).

YES!!! Quite - that is my point. There you have your novel if you want to write one. Why not put your ideas on some electrons and see what happens?

>F>Reading is a form of escapism,

Can be - though I read a great deal of factual work, too. (I'm a political junkie).

>N> to live out for a short while an experience that I wouldn't normally have.

Nope, not why I read. I read to see why others do what they do. I watch 007 on DVD for escapism.

>N> If I don't get that experience I feel cheated. When I get to the end of a book I like to feel that I wish the book had not finished.

Sure, a book needs closure. I agree there. But I don’t look for any particular experience - just something interesting. Some unknown journey - but psychological more than physical.

>F> I also quite like to have learnt something I didn't know so accuracy is important particularly for historical novels.

Ah! I don’t like historical novels. In fact I don’t like most genres of novels - historic, children’s, Sci-Fi, thrillers, horror nor fantasy. There are exceptions, of course but usually, that is a fair guide. In fact, now you mention it, there are not many novels I really do like. John LeCarre and Len Deighton  are way ahead in my fav authors. Robert Harris is excellent too. Jack Higgins and Colin Dexter are in the area of espionage which I love and I’ve read a lot of their books but always feel grumpy after at the relatively poor characterisation. The only Sci-Fi exception I know is HG Wells - love his books. My most hated book of all time (because I did stick with it and read it, as opposed to giving up quickly) is Brown’s “Da Vinci Code” - I thought it drivel. I felt deeply cheated. It is no worse written that, say Forbes’ books, in my opinion but its aims and comments are much more peudo-aspirational.

>N>Why I enjoy children's books more than adult is that there seems to be much more originality and freedom for imagination/fantasy.

Ah! I don’t like reading about children (the novels I read tend to air-brush them out which suits me fine) and I don’t like fantasy. Have tried reading Terry Prachett (someone very kindly bought me a couple of his books) - keep trying but all the fantasy keeps getting in the way for me. I like novels grounded in reality.

>N>Adult fiction can often be very formulaic, the storyline/plot very predictable.

Then forget the storyline - I do. In fact, I always trip up because by page 24 I can’t remember what is happening.

>N> Having said that I did read a highly original, gripping love story on holiday - The Time Travellers Wife, which was very cleverly done and had (in my opinion) a good balance of characterisation and plot, though there were a couple of things she wrote in that I thought did nothing for the story and in fact spoilt it a bit.

Is that Sci-Fi or just a mis-leading title?

>N>As you said fascinating discussion, thanks

Thank you Nina!

J.

Posted by: Jox Jul 17 05, 02:40

Hi Fran,

>F>what a fascinating discussion about what makes for good reading. I think I'm more inclined to Nina's view - but the world would be a very boring place if we all likes the same things (and there'd be no hope at all for all wannabe novelists).

I think most people would agree with Nina; I realise I'm a maverick. No I'll re-phrase, I'm more of a maverick than you and Nina. Most people just want pap. Bond and Davinci Code all round?

Cheers, J.

Posted by: Toumai Jul 17 05, 02:51

James,

Aaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrgggggh!

(heartfelt comment on Da Vinci Code )

Fran

Posted by: Jox Jul 17 05, 03:34

Fran

Agreement! :)

J.

Posted by: Nina Jul 17 05, 03:44

Hi J

OK, well I don't actually put myself in any characters - I want to know what makes them tick, from their perspective, not mine.
I agree, I just see what makes them tick by "stepping into their shoes", looking at the world from their perspective.

But that mention of the one character is what is wrong with so many novels for me - they rely on just one character - that never works for me.
I have read some books that move from one character to another, looking at a situation from each perspective.  It can get confusing if not well written, the reader is not sure whose head they are inside.

>N> Having said that I did read a highly original, gripping love story on holiday - The Time Travellers Wife, which was very cleverly done and had (in my opinion) a good balance of characterisation and plot, though there were a couple of things she wrote in that I thought did nothing for the story and in fact spoilt it a bit.

Is that Sci-Fi or just a mis-leading title?
well, I suppose in a library it would be classed as Sci-Fi but it isn't really.  Very briefly, the story is about a man who has a genetic disorder.  Whenever he gets stressed or anxious he travels backwards in time.  One of the places he often ends up, is his wife's back garden at a time when she was a child.  He keeps appearing all through her childhood.  It is quite a complicated, keeping track of whether he is in the past or present as the story moves forward in time in the present as well as the past (if that makes any sense) but I did enjoy it because it was original and different to the boring same old, same old love story.

Ah! I don’t like historical novels. In fact I don’t like most genres of novels - historic, children’s, Sci-Fi, thrillers, horror nor fantasy. There are exceptions, of course but usually, that is a fair guide. In fact, now you mention it, there are not many novels I really do like.
I find that very interesting.  So are you trying to write the sort of novel you would love to be able to find on the bookshelves to read yourself?  I'm intrigued.

>N>hmmm I could just as well have sat on the tube and listened to two strangers having a conversation and then made up a life for them (quite good fun to do).

YES!!! Quite - that is my point. There you have your novel if you want to write one. Why not put your ideas on some electrons and see what happens?
I'm not sure I'd be any good at writing a novel, I think I'm perhaps a bit too minimalistic in my approach.  I think I'd struggle and I find the whole idea somewhat daunting.

Nina

Posted by: Jul 17 05, 03:55

Dear Jox, Fran and Nina,

Surely there is a typo :

The correct name of that book is :

The Da Vinci Cod

Love
Alan

Posted by: Jox Jul 17 05, 03:59

Hi Nina,

>J>But that mention of the one character is what is wrong with so many novels for me - they rely on just one character - that never works for me.
>N>I have read some books that move from one character to another, looking at a situation from each perspective.  It can get confusing if not well written, the reader is not sure whose head they are inside.

Sure, experimental fiction like that is a pain in the anatomy. I love literary experiments but I think a whole novel like that is too much.

What I meant is an omnipotent stance but showing how the characters think / feel by their conversations / actions - not playing first-person with different characters. Messy.

Len Deignton writes first person - but from one perspective.

>N> Having said that I did read a highly original, gripping love story on holiday - The Time Travellers Wife, which was very cleverly done and had (in my opinion) a good balance of characterisation and plot, though there were a couple of things she wrote in that I thought did nothing for the story and in fact spoilt it a bit.
>J>Is that Sci-Fi or just a mis-leading title?
>N>well, I suppose in a library it would be classed as Sci-Fi but it isn't really.

Yes, any classification system is crude.

>N>Very briefly, the story is about a man who has a genetic disorder.  Whenever he gets stressed or anxious he travels backwards in time.

err sounds a tad sci-fi to me, though :)

>N>One of the places he often ends up, is his wife's back garden at a time when she was a child.  He keeps appearing all through her childhood.

Bad Wolf! Sounds familiar. (Dr Who tv Series 2005)

>N>It is quite a complicated, keeping track of whether he is in the past or present as the story moves forward in time in the present as well as the past (if that makes any sense) but I did enjoy it because it was original and different to the boring same old, same old love story.

Thank you.

>J>Ah! I don’t like historical novels. In fact I don’t like most genres of novels - historic, children’s, Sci-Fi, thrillers, horror nor fantasy. There are exceptions, of course but usually, that is a fair guide. In fact, now you mention it, there are not many novels I really do like.
>N>I find that very interesting.  So are you trying to write the sort of novel you would love to be able to find on the bookshelves to read yourself?  I'm intrigued.

Well, on my fourth / sixth attempt - depends how I classify it! I can find the novels - LeCarre is my ideal but Deighton is excellent. I'll never achieve the former but try to aspire to the latter (but very very very far behind).

LeCarre does write espionage books but their proper classification (back to that) would be literature. He really is concerned with the human condition. para-Quote (can't remember the exact words) from the cover of TTS, Spy: "George Smiley is a brilliant spy but doesn't understand people."

>N>hmmm I could just as well have sat on the tube and listened to two strangers having a conversation and then made up a life for them (quite good fun to do).
>J>YES!!! Quite - that is my point. There you have your novel if you want to write one. Why not put your ideas on some electrons and see what happens?
>N>I'm not sure I'd be any good at writing a novel, I think I'm perhaps a bit too minimalistic in my approach.  I think I'd struggle and I find the whole idea somewhat daunting.

Then "play" with short stories for a while to reduce dauntingness.

Minimialism is good - too many novels waffle needlessly. Good novellists write then pare the words without mercy. Really, like poetry, every word should count in an ideal novel. So you may find writing one easier than me (I - as everyone can see - waffle endlessly).

Why not write that short story about one aspect of your tube travellers. Then maybe another... ? (Saves being daunted).

You certainly can write - like most writers sounds like you need to get over your own mind first :)

J.

Posted by: Nina Jul 17 05, 04:10

Hi Alan

Surely there is a typo :

The correct name of that book is :

The Da Vinci Cod

ROFL

I can't comment as I haven't read the book.

Nina

Posted by: Jox Jul 17 05, 04:28

Hi Alan,

ROFL!!

Yes and an enormous cod at that - on a vast scale!

Still, Brown is rich and I'm not so I shall try to learn.

J.

Posted by: Nina Jul 17 05, 04:35

Hi J

Bad Wolf! Sounds familiar. (Dr Who tv Series 2005)
I haven't watched this series of Dr Who so it means nothing to me.

What I meant is an omnipotent stance but showing how the characters think / feel by their conversations / actions - not playing first-person with different characters. Messy.
agreed  :grinning:


You certainly can write - like most writers sounds like you need to get over your own mind first :)
thank you :).  Ahh yes my mind........that tall, dark, slippery, moss covered wall inside my head.

Nina

Posted by: Jox Jul 17 05, 04:47

Hi Nina,

Sorry about Bad Wolf. Why never watched? Fab prog. Anyway, as Rose (the Dr's companion) travells back and forth through time, the phrase "Bad Wolf" seems to follow her everywhere.

>N>Ahh yes my mind........that tall, dark, slippery, moss covered wall inside my head.

Mossy Moot? Wonderful. Such depth and fertile ground.

J.

Posted by: Jox Jul 17 05, 04:54

The ensuing debate has been moved to the Library - please continue there (HERE!).

NB: Grace's Rose tile is still in FreeVerse - shows up in that list but I can't get it to show up in the big list - will have to ask Lori.

Cheers, J.

Cheers, J.

Posted by: Nina Jul 17 05, 05:30

Hi J

Mossy Moot? Wonderful. Such depth and fertile ground.
ooer, I don't know about that.

Nina

Posted by: Jox Jul 17 05, 05:36

N :) J.

Posted by: Cleo_Serapis Jul 17 05, 06:49

Hi James.

I believe you've moved Grace's tile completely OUT of the crit forum - did you intend to do this?

~Cleo

(One can't move 'parts of a thread' - only the ENTIRE thread)

P.S. Hmmm- I see the thread in Seren's too - how did you do this? I thought one could only MOVE, not copy?

Posted by: Jox Jul 17 05, 07:04

Hi Lori,

No I haven't moved Grace's tile out of crit - I've copied it across. It remains there.

Grace's original tile - less this debate - is still in FreeVerse. The only slight snag is that it doesn't wish to show up in the overall listing - but does show in FreeVerse.

To Copy:

Go to "Move this topic" but opt for the topic to also remain in the original. It auto-locks.

Re-name the moved topic.

Then unlock the original.

Next, delete - by "hand" (individually) all the unwanted entries (in our case the debate). That can take a while. But it does mean we have the debate over here and Grace has a pure tile over in FreeVerse. The only one snag is I can't get Grace's original to show in the overall listing. So how can that be done, please?

Cheers, J.

Posted by: Cleo_Serapis Jul 17 05, 07:17

Hi James.

I see what you've done from my Admin CP.

You first selected "Move this tile" and in theory moved the entire thread over to the AL forum. I move threads by selecting 'Remove the topic entry and posts from source forum' and have not tried the other two options as of yet.

What you've done in this case is select "leave all posts with locked topic in source forum' instead at 5:54 - first move.

You then had to 'unlock' the topic in Seren's at 5:57 to keep it there and rename the new one at 5:56 in the other thread in AL.

Then you went back into the thread in Seren's and deleted 28 replies there (all the non-crit ones).

Not sure what you did next (or why), but I also see a move from Seren's at 6:08 and a move in Herme's at 6:09 with this thread too (but it's not really in Hermes forum anymore)? I don't see a thread in Herme's but I also do not see a thread deleted from there either?  :detective:

This is a bit of a sneaky thing with Ikonboard as it expects only ONE thread to remain, not have copies of the same thread I think.

I do not understand your Q: "The only one snag is I can't get Grace's original to show in the overall listing. So how can that be done, please?"

Which overall listing are you referring to please? I see it in Seren's and in AL..

Cheers!
~Cleo

Posted by: Toumai Jul 17 05, 07:26

It's not showing up in the 'latest posts', Lori - except in AL
Fran (following this with great interest)

Posted by: Cleo_Serapis Jul 17 05, 07:58

Ahh OK! TY Fran!  

BOTH threads are showing up in the 'new posts' search (DB code based only on the date of topics), but only ONE will show up in 'latest posts' search because it uses a different part of the database and thinks this is ONE thread, not two (the newly MOVED thread is the one that will show up in this search).

The move topic function is not designed to be used in this manner (to make a copy of a tile).

I think it may have something to do with the fact that the 'Referrer ID' (set by the Move function) for the threads is the same in the ikonboard DB when the Latest Posts code is selected.

The way I suggest this be done is to create a 'New Topic' (in AL in this example) and copy each reply in and state who originated each one at the beginning of the reply. Either way - BOTH are time-consuming. This way though - BOTH will show up in latest posts and new posts DB searching and not get the DB confused.

Cheers!
~Cleo  

Posted by: Jox Jul 17 05, 08:48

Hi Lori, Fran.

What does "AL" mean, please?

You have it right, from there Lori.

I moved it in / out of R&M to try to fool the system into listing both tiles on the main list. That failed.

The suggestion will work but does have disadvantages - the whole tile looks very tedious and it takes much longer then just deleting. The only advantage I can see is it does show both in the whole list. Is there really no way Ikonboard can duplicate tiles and, given different names, register both? Obviously it is important that tiles appear in the main list. No fix-rounds available at all?

Sorry to give more work!

J.

Posted by: Cleo_Serapis Jul 17 05, 09:31

I'd have to check on that James - as far as I know - there is no "copy" available.

AL = Alexandria's Library

Posted by: Jox Jul 17 05, 09:33

Thanks Lori.

That would be a shame.

Ta, J.

Posted by: Cleo_Serapis Jul 17 05, 09:38

Depends on your POV I suppose.

Our site is unique.  :dragon:

Most forums (ikonboard or other) have one specific forum for a specific type of topic (as the code is designed to be used that way).

Here - we recommend 'non-crit' chat to be copied (and then deleted from originla thread) into another (debate) forum. It really isn't an ikonboard issue. It's our forum rules.

Posted by: Jox Jul 17 05, 10:36

Hi Lori,

I would have thought most forums - at some time or t'other - would find the ability to copy a posting very useful. No?

J.

Posted by: Cleo_Serapis Jul 17 05, 18:56

I've sent a message to ikonboard - and Spectre over there replied (asking why would we copy the same thread to another forum) to which I replied again with details and am now awaiting his next reply....



I don't think he understood my question.

Posted by: Jox Jul 17 05, 19:13

LOL,

Thanks Lori!

J.