Unseen Reflections, Wizard Award Options

[Guest_Jox_*]

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© Pel Farrant, 2006. I, Pel Farrant, do assert my right to be identified as the author of this work in accordance with Sections 77 and 78 of The Copyrights, Designs And Patents Act, 1988. (Laws of Cymru & England, as recognised by international treaties). This work was simultaneously copyrighted in the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the United States of America. This work is posted as an unpublished work in order to elicit critical assistance and other helpful comment, only.

Ref: PF 0549 AD

Unseen Reflections
by PF

Usually, reflections
obey our movements
with invisible delay.

Sometimes synchronicity
evades perception:
we are faced not with the
present but our past or future.

Only when causality measures us,
can we reflect upon our direction?
Though, what if we are peering into
a fairground mirror?

Weightier matters:
The thin become fat;
the fat, thin - or maybe not.

We gain in height, if not in stature;
else we are dwarfed, left to plead
truth in our tall stories
to an incredulous audience.

Then, what if we pass through
light reflection - to the dark side?
Will we meat Darth, the silver-backed
alpha male behind exhibited pictures?

Whilst Mussorgsky paints sounds,
lit by faint moonlight, the grass sings;
Henry Moore perfects curved space:
gravitational art for levity of the heart.

Above, humming Byrd intones
Elizabethan Serenades, as
the gentle Avon flows,
meandering towards a dark lady.

Cornwell's Moore tells of
duplicity and deceit;
of institutionalised isolation;
of frozen friendships.

Did we find Narnia?
Was there magic behind the mirror?
Suspended Spring coils menacingly;
have we reflected lilacs from the dead land?

(end)


--------------------------------------------------------------------
Notes:

Please note: None of these need be read. They are simply offering explanations of some of the references employed.

I recognise this might be a complex poem. I did wonder if it was pretentious. So, I have gone through the references and tried to make them transparent to those who wish to understand more. After doing this I am now confident it is not pretentious - not pretending to be anything it is not. That is, of course, not to say it is good nor bad - just, I believe, not pretentious. I hope the following notes help if you wish to use them. Thank you. PF.

Verses 02 & 03:

The eminent psychologist, Carl Jung, talked of synchronicity being another way to interpret events - an alternative to causality.  We may be measured in what we do by how 'a' leads to 'b' and that leads to 'c' etc. or can things just happen together to make new directions which do not (at least apparently) result from old - a kind of synchronicity?

WWW: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synchronicity

Verse 06:

Whilst writing this, I kept changing between "Darth" (Vader as in "Star Wars") and "Death." But my original image was of Lord Vader, so I will keep with that. He is representative of all evil - the fallen angel. But redemption does, eventually, arrive. It is Vader's screen image I was thinking of - he reminds me of a great Silver-Back gorilla. If "death" seems a more "serious" word then please mentally substitute it - hey this is the era of inter-activity! But, for completeness, I think Lord Vader shall remain in text.

WWW: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darth_vader

Verse 07:

"Whilst Mussorgsky paints sounds,"  - Pictures At An Exhibition

WWW: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pictures_at_an_exhibition

"lit by faint moonlight, the grass sings;"

- Paraphrase of T.S. Eliot, from "The Waste Land": "In the faint moonlight, the grass is singing" [Line 386]

N.B. I accept this could be adjudged pathetic fallacy (which I hate). However, I was employing it as a surreal image; I am not imputing any human behaviour to the grass! To put it another way, no the grass was not literally singing, nor is it a metaphor which imputes any feelings, nor other animate behaviour to the grass. How do I know? Because the whispering grass told me so, of course!

WWW: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_waste_land

"Henry Moore perfects curved space:" - The sculptor's most famous works are very curved, many with hollows sculpted from within.

WWW: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Moore

"gravitational art for levity of the heart." - Linking Einstein's "gravitational curvature of space" concept.

WWW: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curved_space

Verse 08:

"humming Byrd" - reference to: William Byrd, Elizabethan composer and Master of Music at Winchester Cathedral.

WWW: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Byrd

"Elizabethan Serenades, as ... the gentle Avon flows,"

Words have been set to The Elizabethan Serenade (composed by Ronald Binge 1910-1979 - born in my home town of Derby, UK) which include the phrase "where the gently Avon flows" - I believe the tune and lyrics are still available from music publishers. I remember fragments of this from childhood.

WWW: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ronald_Binge

Verse 09:

"Cornwell's Moore"  - David John Moore Cornwell a.k.a. John le Carré.

WWW: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_le_Carre

Verse 10:

"Suspended Spring coils menacingly;" - In Narnia ("The Lion, The Witch And The Wardrobe"), CS Lewis eventually had Spring return, in exchange for something valuable.

WWW: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_lion_the_...nd_the_wardrobe

"have we reflected lilacs from the dead land?"

- Paraphrase of T.S. Eliot, from "The Waste Land": "Lilacs out of the dead land, mixing" [Line 002]

WWW: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_waste_land

========================================================

NB: Poem originally credited to MB but, as it developed, PF took it over.
Thanks to WMW for initial crit.

[Guest_Nina_*]

Hi J

Brill, another of your very thought provoking poems, that I have only just begun to unravel.

Here are some of my initial thoughts/ramblings .


Unseen Reflections
by PF

I like the word reflection with its dual meaning of an image of something replicated in a mirror or reflective surface or a thought that has been carefully considered

Usually, reflections
obey our movements
with invisible delay.

to us it seems like a reflection is there as we are looking at it, we are not aware of the fraction of time it takes for the light to travel and our eyes to receive the image (or something like that, I was hopeless at physics.)

Sometimes synchronicity
evades perception:
we are faced not with the
present but our past or future.

Thanks for the explanation and link.  I think I need a bit more time to get my head around Jung's theory of synchronicity (love the word).  It is certainly evading my perception at the moment other than being to do with coincidence as oppose to cause and effect

Only when causality measures us,
can we reflect upon our direction?
Though, what if we are peering into
a fairground mirror?

Only when we are aware of the effect of our actions can we consider which direction to take and whether the path we are taking is the right one.  Though this won't work if our thinking is skewed and we are not seeing things as they really are.  (A bit like Blair and Bush over Iraq)

Weightier matters:  clever play on matters
The thin become fat;
the fat, thin - or maybe not.

yes, we often weigh things in our favour and it does matter.  Our history books will read very differently to that of another country.  Propaganda, misperception.
We gain in height, if not in stature;
else we are dwarfed, left to plead
truth in our tall stories
to an incredulous audience.  politicians are always doing this.

we "big ourselves up" stand tall, even if to others we lose credibility and they see through the illusion.

Then, what if we pass through
light reflection - to the dark side?

again brill double meaning on light and reflection
the idea of moving from superficial thought to deeper consideration.

Will we me{a}[e]t Darth, the silver-backed
alpha male behind exhibited pictures?

silver-backed - for gorilla or back of the mirror, also makes me think of silver-tongued.

You mentioned Darth implies Death or the image of the grim reaper
The alpha male = power and dominance
exhibited pictures - the reality behind the "window dressing"  or pretence.

Whilst Mussorgsky paints sounds,
lit by faint moonlight, the grass sings;

not quite sure about this but my thoughts are of someone using someone else to his own ends.  Need to read the wiki entry again.

Henry Moore perfects curved space:

curved space - bending light, bending truth

gravitational art for levity of the heart.

interesting play on levity and gravity.  One pulling down the other raising up.  (rambling now)
Also pulling you in.  Believe the lies to make you feel light hearted, peace of mind.

Above, humming Byrd intones
Elizabethan Serenades, as
the gentle Avon flows,
meandering towards a dark lady.

interesting play on byrd.  
Shakespeare, River Avon - Stratford where his wife lived.
London where the dark lady (his mistress?) lived.  
Lies and duplicity.

Cornwell's Moore tells of
duplicity and deceit;
of institutionalised isolation;
of frozen friendships.

Well John Le Carre is into spy thrillers.  Like politics, full of duplicity and trickery.

Institutionalised isolation makes me think of institutionalised racism, could apply to countries as well.

Frozen friendships - very chilling (sorry couldn't resist)

Did we find Narnia?
Was there magic behind the mirror?
Suspended Spring coils menacingly;
have we reflected lilacs from the dead land?

Narnia - a fantasy land
a story based on the Gospels.  Is Christianity a threat and a deception/lie/con.

Well, now that I myself am heading off into fantasy land or outer orbit.  I'd better stop rambling.  Reality calls (washing up waiting to be done), though I can't promise not to come back again.

Fascinating, thanks

Nina

[Guest_Toumai_*]

Hi James

I think I need considerable time to reflect (sorry) on this one; it is growing on me.

I have read Nina's interpretation (ta, Nina) and now feel I am beginning to get a feel for this a little more.

The title is brill because we don't see reflections unless we are looking directly into the mirror, or water, or whatever. Also because so much of what we think is never brought to life in any way.

Usually, reflections
obey our movements
with invisible delay.

Sometimes synchronicity  
evades perception:
we are faced not with the
present but our past or future.

--- this verse is a bit tricky to get ones head around.
Synchronicity I take (from the Wiki extract) to mean a couple of things that coincide to creat some kind of meaning for the observer beyond the simple sum of their appearances? ... so I can understand some superstitious idea but not quite sure about past or future ... unless the synchronicity may be internal reflection in this case?

Only when causality measures us,
can we reflect upon our direction? --- a bit like Schroedinger's cat? We cannot sense our aim without some external marker?
Though, what if we are peering into
a fairground mirror?  --- in which case we are getting entirely the wrong data to base things on

Weightier matters:  --- love Nina's take on this
The thin become fat;
the fat, thin - or maybe not.

We gain in height, if not in stature;
else we are dwarfed, left to plead
truth in our tall stories
to an incredulous audience.

--- perception/appearance is everything?

Then, what if we pass through
light reflection - to the dark side?   --- lovely idea
Will we meat Darth, the silver-backed
alpha male behind exhibited pictures?  --- very clever; love the "silver backed" idea, but (she argues biologically) gorillas are exceptionally gentle and not in the least like DV

Whilst Mussorgsky paints sounds,
lit by faint moonlight, the grass sings;
Henry Moore perfects curved space:  --- with black holes, lol
gravitational art for levity of the heart.

--- this for me is a very magical place where art - even dead artists - are creating ...

Above, humming Byrd intones  --- :)
Elizabethan Serenades, as
the gentle Avon flows,
meandering towards a dark lady.

--- so who is the dark lady?

Cornwell's Moore tells of
duplicity and deceit;
of institutionalised isolation;
of frozen friendships.

--- and the flip side of a paradise?

Did we find Narnia?
Was there magic behind the mirror?
Suspended Spring coils menacingly;
have we reflected lilacs from the dead land?

Would too much spring all at once be dangerous? Are the lilacs the flowers or colours of dead distant hillsides?

Loosing myself in the glints of your thoughts - faster than light - reflected here ....

Cheers, James,

Fran

[Guest_Jox_*]

Hi Nina,

Thanks for your extensive work on this :)

>N> Brill, another of your very thought provoking poems, that I have only just begun to unravel.

Gosh, thank you. And thank you so much for the inspiration - your suggestion of "Reflections" elsewhere.

>N> Here are some of my initial thoughts/ramblings .

Merci muchly.

"Unseen Reflections by PF

>N> I like the word reflection with its dual meaning of an image of something replicated in a mirror or reflective surface or a thought that has been carefully considered

Thanks. The other meaning of the poem (though not really apparent in the title) was looking beyond - through - the mirror... cue Alice!

"Usually, reflections
"obey our movements
"with invisible delay.

>N> to us it seems like a reflection is there as we are looking at it, we are not aware of the fraction of time it takes for the light to travel and our eyes to receive the image (or something like that, I was hopeless at physics.)

I gave up all pure sciences (save Geology) when I was fourteen. I still enjoy impure science, of course.

Yes that minute delay, also thoughts of various comedy films when reflections do different things from the original person.

"Sometimes synchronicity
"evades perception:
"we are faced not with the
"present but our past or future.

>N> Thanks for the explanation and link. I think I need a bit more time to get my head around Jung's theory of synchronicity (love the word). It is certainly evading my perception at the moment other than being to do with coincidence as oppose to cause and effect

Thank YOU for taking the trouble to follow the link :)
It is a great word - agreed.

As I understand it (and I am no psychologist) Jung was thinking of a type of coincidence but one which had greater meaning and rationality for the person experiencing it than mere coincidence. Not a linear cause / effect, no a synchronised cause / effect. Interesting concept. Then I was thinking about a reflection being instant etc. I like Wiki's plum pudding example!

"Only when causality measures us,
"can we reflect upon our direction?
"Though, what if we are peering into
"a fairground mirror?

Only when we are aware of the effect of our actions can we consider which direction to take and whether the path we are taking is the right one. Though this won't work if our thinking is skewed and we are not seeing things as they really are. (A bit like Blair and Bush over Iraq)

LOL. You had a slightly different take on this from me.

L1+2: I was trying to say that we cannot work-out what we are doing, where we are going etc without knowing our place in the scheme of causality. For example, if I am driving a car I must know to where - and preferably from where to really understand my place in the universe at that moment. If I simply knew I was driving past the Doncaster Crystal Grotto it would have almost no meaning without more info.

L3+4: Links to the next verse. But also we expect a mirror to tell us things - where we were a nano-second ago, for one thing. But fairground mirrors distort our perception of the World so badly that we find it almost impossible to work out the causality - where are we going; what are we doing? A hall of fairground mirrors becomes like a labyrinthine maze.

"Weightier matters: clever play on matters
"The thin become fat;
"the fat, thin - or maybe not.

Ta.

>N> yes, we often weigh things in our favour and it does matter. Our history books will read very differently to that of another country. Propaganda, misperception.

Oh yes. Hence the current Sino-Japanese ruckus.

"truth in our tall stories
"to an incredulous audience. politicians are always doing this.

So are teachers!

>N> we "big ourselves up" stand tall, even if to others we lose credibility and they see through the illusion.

Yes. More distortions.

"Then, what if we pass through
"light reflection - to the dark side?

>N> again brill double meaning on light and reflection the idea of moving from superficial thought to deeper consideration.

Thank you. Yes, that was about it - going to a world beyond reality really; a world of philosophy and art; a world many don't have time and inclination too often to inhabit.

"Will we me{a}[e]t Darth, the silver-backed
"alpha male behind exhibited pictures?

ROFL - hunky, chunky Darth! Thanks for the spelling correction :)

>N> silver-backed - for gorilla or back of the mirror, also makes me think of silver-tongued.

I hadn't thought of that - good point. Yes the mirror's backing and DV reminds me of a gorilla in shape (I see Fran says gorillas are gentle - but so is DV unless he doesn't get his way!)

>N> You mentioned Darth implies Death or the image of the grim reaper

Yes and the dark side in general (another reason not to use just "death."

>N> The alpha male = power and dominance

Yup.

>N> exhibited pictures - the reality behind the "window dressing" or pretence.

Yes, never mind the pretty wallpaper - are the walls ok?

"Whilst Mussorgsky paints sounds,
"lit by faint moonlight, the grass sings;

>N> not quite sure about this but my thoughts are of someone using someone else to his own ends. Need to read the wiki entry again.

LOL OK. Thanks.

Good interpretation.

All I meant is art coming in - an artist's ability to affect all senses with their art; lifting us higher.

"Henry Moore perfects curved space:

>N> curved space - bending light, bending truth

Yup.

"gravitational art for levity of the heart.

>N> interesting play on levity and gravity. One pulling down the other raising up. (rambling now)

Nope - good point.

Also pulling you in. Believe the lies to make you feel light hearted, peace of mind.

Good interpretation.

I think I meant a few things - Henry Moore's art is very heavy (which is why the theft of a piece t’other week was amazing). It is very grounded (literally). It is also not light, fluttering art - it is art with gravitas - the toughest, roughest workman could say he liked it without seeming an airy-fairy art-lover. Gravitas is (as you indicate) also convincing. And so on.

“Above, humming Byrd intones
“Elizabethan Serenades, as
“the gentle Avon flows,
“meandering towards a dark lady.

>N> interesting play on Byrd.

Ta.

“Shakespeare, River Avon - Stratford where his wife lived.

Yes, had to bring Will in.

“London where the dark lady (his mistress?) lived.

Yes, the dark lady of the sonnets. I wasn’t specifically thinking London - just to wherever she was - if she’d lived in the Doncaster Crystal Grotto it would not have mattered.

>N> Lies and duplicity.

Ok, though I was trying to suggest gentleness and love! :)

“Cornwell's Moore tells of
“duplicity and deceit;
“of institutionalised isolation;
“of frozen friendships.

>N> Well John le Carré is into spy thrillers. Like politics, full of duplicity and trickery.

emm. I’m not entirely sure that le Carré could be accused of writing “thrillers!” :) But the rest, yes.

>N> Institutionalised isolation makes me think of institutionalised racism, could apply to countries as well.

True. Anything where the institution / society clashes with individuals would be fine by me; it is that clash I meant.

>N> Frozen friendships - very chilling (sorry couldn't resist)

LOL - though you are right from my perspective - precisely what I meant.

“Did we find Narnia?
“Was there magic behind the mirror?
“Suspended Spring coils menacingly;
“have we reflected lilacs from the dead land?

>N> Narnia - a fantasy land

Is it? I’ve always believed it  was Doncaster’s equivalent of Legoland.

>N> a story based on the Gospels. Is Christianity a threat and a deception/lie/con.

Interesting - beyond my thoughts. However, as CS Lewis was a well-known Christian and Narnia is thought to be based on Christianity, a fair interpretation. Rather good, actually :)

>N> Well, now that I myself am heading off into fantasy land or outer orbit. I'd better stop rambling. Reality calls (washing up waiting to be done), though I can't promise not to come back again.

And the dish ran away with the spoon.

>N> Fascinating, thanks

Thank you! Much hard work, clever thought and well-linked research Nina - much appreciated.

You have brought new dimensions to this and that is tremendously exciting for me.

When writing it, I was trying to ask if we could be sure we are who we think when we look in the mirror (not that I do) and, if we went beyond the mirror, would art and philosophy make a difference to us. You have suggested lots of different ideas which are brill, so a big thank you. :)

J.

[Guest_Nina_*]

Hi J

Thanks for explaining your ideas in more detail.

>J>Thanks for your extensive work on this :)

my pleasure

>J>And thank you so much for the inspiration - your suggestion of "Reflections" elsewhere.

I'm chuffed it inspired you to write this.

>J>Thanks. The other meaning of the poem (though not really apparent in the title) was looking beyond - through - the mirror... cue Alice!

ah yes, look beyond the obvious.

>J>I gave up all pure sciences (save Geology) when I was fourteen. I still enjoy impure science, of course.

I'm very tempted to comment on your enjoyment of pure science but....

"Sometimes synchronicity
"evades perception:
"we are faced not with the
"present but our past or future.

>J>As I understand it (and I am no psychologist) Jung was thinking of a type of coincidence but one which had greater meaning and rationality for the person experiencing it than mere coincidence. Not a linear cause / effect, no a synchronised cause / effect. Interesting concept. Then I was thinking about a reflection being instant etc. I like Wiki's plum pudding example!

thanks.  I shall look at the wiki link again when I have time.

"Only when causality measures us,
"can we reflect upon our direction?
"Though, what if we are peering into
"a fairground mirror?

>J>L1+2: I was trying to say that we cannot work-out what we are doing, where we are going etc without knowing our place in the scheme of causality. For example, if I am driving a car I must know to where - and preferably from where to really understand my place in the universe at that moment. If I simply knew I was driving past the Doncaster Crystal Grotto it would have almost no meaning without more info.

ok thanks

L3+4: Links to the next verse. But also we expect a mirror to tell us things - where we were a nano-second ago, for one thing. But fairground mirrors distort our perception of the World so badly that we find it almost impossible to work out the causality - where are we going; what are we doing? A hall of fairground mirrors becomes like a labyrinthine maze.

Yes, I understood about the fairground mirror distorting our perception of the world.

"truth in our tall stories
"to an incredulous audience. politicians are always doing this.

>J>So are teachers!

LOL


"Then, what if we pass through
"light reflection - to the dark side?



ROFL - hunky, chunky Darth! Thanks for the spelling correction :)

>N> silver-backed - for gorilla or back of the mirror, also makes me think of silver-tongued.

>J>I hadn't thought of that - good point. Yes the mirror's backing and DV reminds me of a gorilla in shape (I see Fran says gorillas are gentle - but so is DV unless he doesn't get his way!)

I've never thought of DV as a gorilla.

"Whilst Mussorgsky paints sounds,
"lit by faint moonlight, the grass sings;

>J>All I meant is art coming in - an artist's ability to affect all senses with their art; lifting us higher.

ah thanks


"gravitational art for levity of the heart.

>N> interesting play on levity and gravity. One pulling down the other raising up. (rambling now)

Nope - good point.

Also pulling you in. Believe the lies to make you feel light hearted, peace of mind.

Good interpretation.

>J>I think I meant a few things - Henry Moore's art is very heavy (which is why the theft of a piece t’other week was amazing). It is very grounded (literally). It is also not light, fluttering art - it is art with gravitas - the toughest, roughest workman could say he liked it without seeming an airy-fairy art-lover. Gravitas is (as you indicate) also convincing. And so on.

thanks for explaining.

“Above, humming Byrd intones
“Elizabethan Serenades, as
“the gentle Avon flows,
“meandering towards a dark lady.

>N> interesting play on Byrd.

Ta.

“Shakespeare, River Avon - Stratford where his wife lived.

>J>Yes, had to bring Will in.

but of course :)

“London where the dark lady (his mistress?) lived.

Yes, the dark lady of the sonnets. I wasn’t specifically thinking London - just to wherever she was - if she’d lived in the Doncaster Crystal Grotto it would not have mattered.

Couldn't imagine Shakespeare in Doncaster though.

>N> Lies and duplicity.

>J>Ok, though I was trying to suggest gentleness and love! :)

oops missed that completely, though Shakespeare was deceiving his wife, having an affair, enjoying a life of freedom while his wife was at home looking after the children, not knowing what he was up to.

“Cornwell's Moore tells of
“duplicity and deceit;
“of institutionalised isolation;
“of frozen friendships.

>N> Well John le Carré is into spy thrillers. Like politics, full of duplicity and trickery.

>J>emm. I’m not entirely sure that le Carré could be accused of writing “thrillers!” :) But the rest, yes.

I will read him sometime :)

>N> Institutionalised isolation makes me think of institutionalised racism, could apply to countries as well.

>J>True. Anything where the institution / society clashes with individuals would be fine by me; it is that clash I meant.

yes, I see that.

>N> Frozen friendships - very chilling (sorry couldn't resist)

>J>LOL - though you are right from my perspective - precisely what I meant.

:)

“Did we find Narnia?
“Was there magic behind the mirror?
“Suspended Spring coils menacingly;
“have we reflected lilacs from the dead land?

>N> Narnia - a fantasy land

>J>Is it? I’ve always believed it  was Doncaster’s equivalent of Legoland.

no idea, never been to Doncaster.  It's too far up North and I lost my passport.

>N> a story based on the Gospels. Is Christianity a threat and a deception/lie/con.

>J>Interesting - beyond my thoughts. However, as CS Lewis was a well-known Christian and Narnia is thought to be based on Christianity, a fair interpretation. Rather good, actually :)

Thank you

>J>Thank you! Much hard work, clever thought and well-linked research Nina - much appreciated.

>J>You have brought new dimensions to this and that is tremendously exciting for me.

I'm reet chuffed.

When writing it, I was trying to ask if we could be sure we are who we think when we look in the mirror (not that I do) and, if we went beyond the mirror, would art and philosophy make a difference to us. You have suggested lots of different ideas which are brill, so a big thank you. :)

Of course how we perceive ourselves isn't usually how others perceive us.  How well do we know ourselves?  Perhaps art, philosophy, psychology can give us a different perspective and greater understanding of why we behave the way we do, react the way we do.

Have to stop there, most interesting thanks

Nina

[Guest_Jox_*]

Hi Nina,

>N> Thanks for explaining your ideas in more detail.

And thank you for treturning.

>J>Thanks for your extensive work on this :)
>N> my pleasure

Thanks again.

>J>And thank you so much for the inspiration - your suggestion of "Reflections" elsewhere.
>N> I'm chuffed it inspired you to write this.

:) Well it was your idea.

>N> I'm very tempted to comment on your enjoyment of pure science but....

Thought you might be :)

>N> I've never thought of DV as a gorilla.

Really? And I suppose you'll tell me that you've never thought of George Bush as a squid nor Tony Blair as a Jellyfish?

"gravitational art for levity of the heart.

>J>Yes, had to bring Will in.
>N> but of course :)

:)

>J> Yes, the dark lady of the sonnets. I wasn’t specifically thinking London - just to wherever she was - if she’d lived in the Doncaster Crystal Grotto it would not have mattered.
>N> Couldn't imagine Shakespeare in Doncaster though.

Good black puddings, I believe. he may have been partial!

>N> Lies and duplicity.
>J> Ok, though I was trying to suggest gentleness and love! :)
>N> oops missed that completely, though Shakespeare was deceiving his wife, having an affair, enjoying a life of freedom while his wife was at home looking after the children, not knowing what he was up to.

What about the pressures of slaving over a hot manuscript all day. He may have needed his cocoa. Besides, we don't know what his wife was doing either. They could always send a pigeon-mail to each other.

>J>emm. I’m not entirely sure that le Carré could be accused of writing “thrillers!” :) But the rest, yes.
>N> I will read him sometime :)

Recommended.

>N> Narnia - a fantasy land
>J> Is it? I’ve always believed it  was Doncaster’s equivalent of Legoland.
>F> no idea, never been to Doncaster.  It's too far up North and I lost my passport.

Go to Paddington and ask for an awayday to Doncaster and explain you have no passport. (He'll probably take you to peru but, hey, that's international travel).

>J>Thank you! Much hard work, clever thought and well-linked research Nina - much appreciated. You have brought new dimensions to this and that is tremendously exciting for me.
>N> I'm reet chuffed.

Me too, thanks.

>J> When writing it, I was trying to ask if we could be sure we are who we think when we look in the mirror (not that I do) and, if we went beyond the mirror, would art and philosophy make a difference to us. You have suggested lots of different ideas which are brill, so a big thank you. :)
>N> Of course how we perceive ourselves isn't usually how others perceive us.

You don't need to tell a teacher that!

>N> How well do we know ourselves?

I met myself first in 1968 then five years later an so on - we try to keep in-touch - but you know how it is sometimes.

>N> Perhaps art, philosophy, psychology can give us a different perspective and greater understanding of why we behave the way we do, react the way we do.

Well you are a poet - an artist - that is what you do :)

>N> Have to stop there, most interesting thanks

And thank you - hope you got some lunch time.

Cheers now, J.

[Cyn]

This one grabs me. I've come back to it several times and would like to come back again and crit it. I will be gone for about a week and will try to come back when I return

[Guest_Jox_*]

Hi Cyn

Thank you. I shall look forward to your return, then - have an enjoyable and / or peaceful time.

James.

[Guest_Don_*]

I've copied your text Jox and intend to get back with comment.

My biggest objection for you as an educator is sourcing Wika which is low on accuracy due to its open ended input with minimal editorial checking.

Don

[Guest_Jox_*]

Hi Don,

Thanks for visiting. I'll look forward to your comments :)

Wikipedia...

I'm very surprised you have found great fault with Wiki; in all the things I know anything about (which may not be many!) I haven't managed to trip it up once.

The potential works both ways, doesn't it? Yes, sure anyone can put any rubbish on - but Wiki is so massive (No1 on the Net I think) that plenty of people are there to tear it down and to correct errors (maybe not too low on checking - if not by the editoral staff). I have seen credits for such corrections several times.

Have you actually found many faults on Wiki? It is an important question because I both use it and recommend it very frequently so, obviously, if there are many problems I'd like to know, please.

Cheers and thanks for the info.

J.

[Guest_Toumai_*]

Hi James, Don

I do remember seeing a comparison in a broadsheet (reputable newspaper) recently which suggested a very favourable comparison between wiki and one of the major "classic" encyclopaedias

Fran

[Guest_Don_*]

Fault with Wiki?

I suppose I should depend on you as an educator who has found the sources you selected as impecable rather than carte blanche dis the Wiki system.

Last month I heard on BBC America that Wiki officials were addressing accuracy issues in certain areas.  Apparently their reputation needs a dab of polish.  

My lack of trust is in general ignorance, though I appreciate your deference to my meager scholarly ability to name spit and spot.  A very professional approach for determining intergrity of source and more importantly the jusification for using such source.  

My lack of trust is based on my distrust of anyone's input from anywhere.  What is the structure of wiki information authorization and what double checks do they have in place.  I would hope for more than popularity and repetition, but I fear not.  

I mean no personal offence, but expresss my bias as to wiki, because it always needs a second source verification.  Why do extra work due to risk of maybe?

I feel like researcher must do extra work and maybe add, "And by the way Wiki agrees."

Don

[Guest_Jox_*]

Hi Don,

Thanks for returning...

>D> Fault with Wiki?

>D> I suppose I should depend on you as an educator who has found the sources you selected as impeccable rather than carte blanche dis the Wiki system.

You've lost me rather there, sorry. All I can tell you is that the things I know about (as I said, not many!) and have checked on Wiki are accurate as far as I know. I can't speak for articles beyond that - I can only base my conclusions on that sample and others' comments.

>D> Last month I heard on BBC America that Wiki officials were addressing accuracy issues in certain areas.  Apparently their reputation needs a dab of polish.

Yes, I do know of occasional problems, too (such as one US politician who was upset) but, unless we always go to primary sources we'll always have that problem (and ever primary sources are often unreliable).

>D> My lack of trust is in general ignorance, though I appreciate your deference to my meagre scholarly ability to name spit and spot.  A very professional approach for determining integrity of source and more importantly the justification for using such source.

Well, we're all generally ignorant. The idea of the Renaissance Man is long gone - there is simply far too much human knowledge for us to know but a tiny percentage of it. Even specific subjects are now multiply sub-divided, of course.

>D> My lack of trust is based on my distrust of anyone's input from anywhere.

Oh! I'm with you there - my whole approach to the World. But, for practical purposes, I have to trust knowledge and so-called "facts" in daily life. When I start pontificating, though, I trust only what I can see... but we can't live like that - too much knowledge, as I said.

>D> What is the structure of wiki information authorization and what double checks do they have in place.  I would hope for more than popularity and repetition, but I fear not.

As you said initially, there is little overall editorial control. BUT the big check is that the World has many people knowledgeable about almost everything. So if / when inaccuracies are posted, the rest of the people in that sphere of learning will correct it if they see a problem. It is, thus self-checking / correcting. Not foolproof - but maybe a better system than allowing just one person to do all the work without check. (Seen some scientists falsify gene research of late? )

>D> I mean no personal offence,

Good grief - none taken; your comments are very helpful, thanks, Don.

>D> but express my bias as to wiki, because it always needs a second source verification.  Why do extra work due to risk of maybe?

If you look at all the Wiki links I provided, take one, then scroll down to the bottom of most of the articles, you will find external links there - to some very authoritative web sites. They easily provide the double-checking which you, rightly, say would be necessary for intellectual integrity. (Though, of course, for academic integrity, primary sources would be needed).

>D> I feel like researcher must do extra work and maybe add, "And by the way Wiki agrees."

It depends on the level of the work which one is doing. As notes to explain the poem's references, I'm content with Wiki - providing they are accurate. But I don't feel I need to verify - if others wish to, they may. If I was writing an undergraduate thesis, I would need to consult primary sources or do original research of my own from scratch. Anything else is in-between. But what you say about multi-sourcing research is perfectly true for academic research or when anything depends on it.

Thanks Don!

Cheers, J.

[Guest_Jox_*]

Hi Fran,

>F> I do remember seeing a comparison in a broadsheet (reputable newspaper) recently which suggested a very favourable comparison between wiki and one of the major "classic" encyclopaedias

Thanks - yes I've seen such comments, too.

Nothing is accurate in this World - just a matter of generally going with something.

Thanks!

J.

[Psyche]

Hi Jox !  :sun:

My, I've dropped in far too late in the day to give any intelligible feedback to this one ! Fantastic !
Nina, Fran and Don have already done extensive research into these subjects, so I'll continue to read what you all have to say, and see whether I can contribute anything useful another day.

Thanks for sharing these fascinating lines, Jox !
Cheers,
Sylvia  :turtle:

[Guest_Don_*]

Hi Jox !  

My, I've dropped in far too late in the day to give any intelligible feedback to this one ! Fantastic !
Nina, Fran and Don have already done extensive research into these subjects, so I'll continue to read what you all have to say, and see whether I can contribute anything useful another day.

Thanks for sharing these fascinating lines, Jox !
Cheers,
Sylvia  

Hi Sylvia,

I do not think I've added anything yet except show of an obstinate feather.  My guess is the dicussion is going to become quite philosophical.  Please hang with us as it promises to be an intellectual romp.

Don

[Guest_Don_*]

Jox, here is my first peek into the abyss.

The addition of notes we need not read, but probably will anyway.  I dislike the tradition of not adding author's comments to clarify or illuminate features or intents as quidlines.  To me it is an official game like when the reporters spend a half-hour of your time telling you what the President you just heard really said.  The President is not allowed to tell anyone what he meant; nor is the author allowed to be a critic.

Of course, I would never have quessed your references without the no need to read notes.

Mirrors and reflections are ancient themes for poetry.  Your first paragraph turns an interesting twist by implying entry into unusual reflections.  I like the invisible delay per modern optical science.  My bias enters in that astrophysical conjecture is dark matter exceeds what we have seen to measure in sum total of our universe.  Therefore, what we don't see must be more important than what we do.  Your beginning hints at revelation of what this unknown might be.

As to Jung's specialized word in second stanza, he like many great minds was forced to created new definitions for concepts never thought of before.  To remove it from context damages the goods.  I think Dr. Jung was trying to suspend ideas from time.  He was saying events may logical go from A to B to C. but what if they were simultaneous.  Your stanza keeps our mind in the train of time.  I do know that one of his famous activities was to locate universal symbols free of space and time.  Say a symbol used by the ancients and moderns to represent sky.  He also generated a special phrase for members of this list.

More to come...

Don

[Guest_Jox_*]

Hi Don,

Thanks for returning. Most kind.

>D> J, here is my first peek into the abyss.

Gosh! And I thought I could write much darker material!

>D> The addition of notes we need not read, but probably will anyway. I dislike the tradition of not adding author's comments to clarify or illuminate features or intents as guidelines. To me it is an official game like when the reporters spend a half-hour of your time telling you what the President you just heard really said. The President is not allowed to tell anyone what he meant; nor is the author allowed to be a critic.

Yes, if one doesn't say what one means the interpreters will do it for one.

Actually, I try not to say what I mean in a poem, save in the poem. I try to restrict notes to explanations of references employed. However, of course, overlap occurs.

>D> Of course, I would never have guessed your references without the no need to read notes.

Really? Were some not axiomatic? Maybe not then. :(

>D> Mirrors and reflections are ancient themes for poetry.

'tis true. That was the starting point - on another board Nina set "reflections" as a competition stimulus. Although I have decided not to enter that competition, I was still enthused to write this.

>D>  Your first paragraph turns an interesting twist by implying entry into unusual reflections. I like the invisible delay per modern optical science.

Thanks, though I don't quite understand the science ref., sorry

>D> My bias enters in that astrophysical conjecture is dark matter exceeds what we have seen to measure in sum total of our universe. Therefore, what we don't see must be more important than what we do. Your beginning hints at revelation of what this unknown might be.

OK, I suppose poetry can be so powerful precisely because of that - much of what is meant is unspecified. We take the words to mean so much more. Explains poetry's concise nature. A good way of explaining it, thanks.

>D> As to Jung's specialized word in second stanza, he like many great minds was forced to created new definitions for concepts never thought of before.

OK.

>D> To remove it from context damages the goods.

Ah! Now, although I don't believe I did that, I'd still disagree with that premise. We're not here to be members of Carl Jung's fan club; nothing new comes of that approach. I think it perfectly legitimate - even necessary - for artists - and scientists - to take existing ideas and develop them further / differently. To pull and to prod them to see what happens. Just putting them in a glass box as a homage to their creator will take us nowhere.

>D> I think Dr. Jung was trying to suspend ideas from time. He was saying events may logical go from A to B to C. but what if they were simultaneous.

emm.. No and Yes to those sentences, respectively. The second first: as I understand it (which is very patchily) Jung said Causation was A to B to C. He then proposed Synchronicity as a theory (though I think previous work by others had been undertaken on it). But both Causation and Synchronicity are only meaningful if related to time. Indeed, "synchronicity" even contains the time-word within it. So, sorry, I don't agree that Jung was suspending any ideas from time; I think time is  critical to both concepts. Have you read the Plum Pudding example on Wiki? I think that explains what I mean rather well.

NB The Plum Pudding example refrences the past, present and future - as with my mirror. (Not how I got the idea - it was directly - but there does seem some synchronicity! (Groan - sorry).

>D> Your stanza keeps our mind in the train of time. I do know that one of his famous activities was to locate universal symbols free of space and time. Say a symbol used by the ancients and moderns to represent sky. He also generated a special phrase for members of this list.

emm. ok I'm a tad lost here, sorry. Unsure how this relates to the poem - or are you using it as an example of de-coupling time from change? But, in fact, from what you have said time is there again. "Ancient" and "modern" cannot exist in isolation, nor as juxtaposed concepts, without implicit reference to time, surely? It is time which makes them ancient or modern.

>D> More to come...

Looking forward - certainly shoving my brain into gear; though I'm not sure it is the sort of gear that flatters it! :)

Thanks very much, indeed, Don.

Cheers, J.

[Guest_Don_*]

Hi Jox,

>J> Thanks for returning. Most kind.
>D2> Dittto James.  A strong feather could physically push me over.  So glad the strong winds are presently constrained outside.  A grand snow fell last night to bring us back illusion of winter.

>D> Jox, here is my first peek into the abyss.

>J>Gosh! And I thought I could write much darker material!  
>D2> :) :) :)

>D> Of course, I never would have guessed your references without the notes you supplied.

>J>Really? Were some not axiomatic? Maybe not then. :(
>D2> No need to frown dear friend.  I am afraid the only references I would have picked up are:
Darth and C.S. Lewis.  I might have gotten Mussorgsky because I like his concert on the paintings ending in The Great Gate of Kiev .  I really do appreciate your explanation of Byrd’s serenades, Cornwell’s Moore, and Avon’s dark direction.  I do enjoy heavy Russian classical music.

>D>  Your first paragraph turns an interesting twist by implying entry into unusual reflections. I like the invisible delay per modern optical science.
>J>Thanks, though I don't quite understand the science ref., sorry
>D2> The laws of optics outline how reflections work after we already knew how to create them.  How many moderns today know there is technically a time delay?  I think you may be using delay here as a link to pulling us toward the past.

>D> My bias enters in that astrophysical conjecture is that dark matter exceeds what we see to measure in sum total of our universe. Therefore, implication is that what we don't see may be more important than what we do. Your beginning hints at revelation of what this unknown might be.

>J>OK, I suppose poetry can be so powerful precisely because of that - much of what is meant is unspecified. We take the words to mean so much more. Explains poetry's concise nature. A good way of explaining it, thanks.
>D2>  Pardon my apnophemia.  Dark Matter is a subject constantly on my mind so it is natural to find it where it may not exist.

>D> As to Jung's specialized word in second stanza, he like many great minds was forced to created new definitions for concepts never thought of before.

>J>OK.

>D> To remove it from context damages the goods.

Ah! Now, although I don't believe I did that, I'd still disagree with that premise. We're not here to be members of Carl Jung's fan club; nothing new comes of that approach. I think it perfectly legitimate - even necessary - for artists - and scientists - to take existing ideas and develop them further / differently. To pull and to prod them to see what happens. Just putting them in a glass box as a homage to their creator will take us nowhere.
>D2> What fan club?  One would almost need to be an nutty as he.

>D> I think Dr. Jung was trying to suspend ideas from time. He was saying events may logical go from A to B to C. but what if they were simultaneous.

>J>emm.. No and Yes to those sentences, respectively. The second first: as I understand it (which is very patchily) Jung said Causation was A to B to C. He then proposed Synchronicity as a theory (though I think previous work by others had been undertaken on it). But both Causation and Synchronicity are only meaningful if related to time. Indeed, "synchronicity" even contains the time-word within it. So, sorry, I don't agree that Jung was suspending any ideas from time; I think time is critical to both concepts. Have you read the Plum Pudding example on Wiki? I think that explains what I mean rather well.

>J>NB The Plum Pudding example references the past, present and future - as with my mirror. (Not how I got the idea - it was directly - but there does seem some synchronicity! (Groan - sorry).
>D2>  After reading the plum pudding example I rescind my A to B to C causation.  It looks like Jung was claiming simultaneous experiences de-coupled from causation link.  Maybe a multi-event envent?  Several become one?

>D> Your stanza keeps our mind in the train of time. I do know that one of his famous activities was to locate universal symbols free of space and time. Say a symbol used by the ancients and moderns to represent sky. He also generated a special phrase for members of this list.

>J>emm. ok I'm a tad lost here, sorry. Unsure how this relates to the poem - or are you using it as an example of de-coupling time from change? But, in fact, from what you have said time is there again. "Ancient" and "modern" cannot exist in isolation, nor as juxtaposed concepts, without implicit reference to time, surely? It is time which makes them ancient or modern.
>D2> My ancient /modern are poor choices.  Jung may not have been de-coupling time at all?  Maybe he was identifying mental symbols equally valid for all eras? This is unrelated to your poem except for dicussion.

>D2>  I shall pause here to see if we are in a modicum of agreement before bouncing forward.

Cheers James.

Don

[Guest_Jox_*]

Hi Don,

>J> Thanks for returning. Most kind.
>D2> Dittto James. A strong feather could physically push me over. So glad the strong winds are presently constrained outside. A grand snow fell last night to bring us back illusion of winter.

J2> Very warm here - unseasonably so. Must be because they promised us the worst winter for yonks! I'm very sorry you remain so weak, Don and I do hope you strengthen this year. Good luck!

>D> Of course, I never would have guessed your references without the notes you supplied.
>J> Really? Were some not axiomatic? Maybe not then.
>D2> No need to frown dear friend. I am afraid the only references I would have picked up are:
Darth and C.S. Lewis. I might have gotten Mussorgsky because I like his concert on the paintings ending in The Great Gate of Kiev . I really do appreciate your explanation of Byrd’s serenades, Cornwell’s Moore, and Avon’s dark direction. I do enjoy heavy Russian classical music.

>J2> Fair point, thanks.

>J2> I'm not a big classical music fan - but there are important exceptions. I still blame classic music for kicking-out what we now call "Early Music." And I prefer Beethoven's Romantic era to the classics. However, as i say exceptions - Mozart etc.

>D> Your first paragraph turns an interesting twist by implying entry into unusual reflections. I like the invisible delay per modern optical science.
>J> Thanks, though I don't quite understand the science ref., sorry
>D2> The laws of optics outline how reflections work after we already knew how to create them. How many moderns today know there is technically a time delay? I think you may be using delay here as a link to pulling us toward the past.

>J2> To be honest, Don, I gave up Physics aged fourteen my record would say - but in reality I never took it - not once during any Physics lesson had I any idea what they were talking about. (Same for a few more subjects, actually). I have no idea whatsoever what the laws of optics state, sorry.

>J2> What I do know is everything takes time - so the delay did mean the delay whilst light travels; it wasn't meant to be a reference to the past per se - though I liked that reference too.

>D> My bias enters in that astrophysical conjecture is that dark matter exceeds what we see to measure in sum total of our universe. Therefore, implication is that what we don't see may be more important than what we do. Your beginning hints at revelation of what this unknown might be.
>J> OK, I suppose poetry can be so powerful precisely because of that - much of what is meant is unspecified. We take the words to mean so much more. Explains poetry's concise nature. A good way of explaining it, thanks.
>D2> Pardon my apnophemia. Dark Matter is a subject constantly on my mind so it is natural to find it where it may not exist.

No problem, Don - it is a fascinating new(ish) idea. I wonder how much dark matter could be crammed into a space Hoover?

>D2> (Jung) What fan club? One would almost need to be an nutty as he.

ROFL!!! Oh bugger! I am at least as nutty as he!

>J> NB The Plum Pudding example references the past, present and future - as with my mirror. (Not how I got the idea - it was directly - but there does seem some synchronicity! (Groan - sorry).
>D2> After reading the plum pudding example I rescind my A to B to C causation. It looks like Jung was claiming simultaneous experiences de-coupled from causation link. Maybe a multi-event event? Several become one?

>J2> Thank you very much for your additional research, Don. I think we need to remember Jung was a psychologist. I believe he was talking about events impinging on the mind, rather than having a significance in time and space per se. Just my thought.

>D> Your stanza keeps our mind in the train of time. I do know that one of his famous activities was to locate universal symbols free of space and time. Say a symbol used by the ancients and moderns to represent sky. He also generated a special phrase for members of this list.
>J> emm. ok I'm a tad lost here, sorry. Unsure how this relates to the poem - or are you using it as an example of de-coupling time from change? But, in fact, from what you have said time is there again. "Ancient" and "modern" cannot exist in isolation, nor as juxtaposed concepts, without implicit reference to time, surely? It is time which makes them ancient or modern.
>D2> My ancient /modern are poor choices. Jung may not have been de-coupling time at all? Maybe he was identifying mental symbols equally valid for all eras? This is unrelated to your poem except for discussion.

OK, Well, I haven't yet read that aspect of Jungianism. I will try to get round to it. However, I think he seems to have been asking "what if coincidences re-occur - what effect does that have on the psyche?" I think - only my interpretation - that the only difference between Synchronicity and co-incidence may be in the perception of the experiencer and, as you say, above, multi-events happening at once. But I'd need to research that much further to be certain of what he was saying there.

>D2> I shall pause here to see if we are in a modicum of agreement before bouncing forward.

I'm not sure if we're agreeing or disagreeing - but it is very interesting.

Thanks, Don, Cheers.

James.