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Posted by: Psyche Nov 27 15, 01:02

REVISION


The seafront airs Thalia's joyful pleas
that dance against the pinewoods, moist with rain;
recalls an ancient shrine with russet frieze
and ruffles my sleek horse’s silver mane.

What dreams have slipped my mind these years, or by
which stellar laws have failed to lure my heart?
The tide is tanned with spume this dawn -I sigh
in sufferance, not wishing to depart.

In whispers, wraith-like shrouds beneath the sea
divine unwritten rules the Fates have found
to stay my soul, or souls who yearn for me

this morn. My mind forswears the spindle's sound,
as if today some secret, nameless key
unlocks the fount to sway my life around.

By Psyche.

Note:
1. Changed 'jesting' to 'joyful' in L1. Thalia is one of the Three Graces, who bring beauty, joy and happiness to men and Greek gods.
2. In S4, L1, used 'spindle's sound'. One of the Fates, Clotho, uses her spindle to provide the thread of life, which the others dispose of by measuring and cutting. The Fates spin out the destiny of babes, three days after they're born. They represent predetermination, as opposed to free will.







ORIGINAL


The seafront vents an adamantine breeze
that pounds against the pinewoods, moist with rain;
recalls an ancient shrine with russet frieze,
blasts my attendant horse’s mangled mane.

What dreams have slipped my mind these years, or by
what stellar law have failed to lure my heart?
The tide is tanned with spume this dawn, -I sigh
in sufferance, not wishing to depart.

Whispering wraithlike shrouds beneath the sea
divine unwritten rules the Fates have bound
to stay my soul, or souls who yearn for me

this morn. My mind forswears such barren ground,
as if today some secret, nameless key
unlocks a source to sway my life around.


By Psyche.

Posted by: Merlin Nov 27 15, 17:39

Hi Syl,
Nice imagery. I'd like to see a stronger word than "source" in the final line - source isn't all that romantic when I envision a Jeannie popping out of a tea kettle.

Merlin

Posted by: Psyche Nov 28 15, 00:56

Hi Merlin, thanks for dropping in here. I'll take into account your suggestion for the final line, tx a lot.

BTW, I put 3 ***, hoping that you or somebody would help me with the meter, as I'm not at all confident in that realm...LOL. Not an R&R poet at all, just hang on and do my best. Always ready to receive a good bashing in this forum!

Cheers, Syl***

Posted by: Luce Nov 28 15, 22:48

Hi Sylvia,

Very lovely sonnet. I've read it aloud a number of times and it sounds pretty much on meter, as much as I can figure out.

However, I'm in the process of learning meter so I can't give you a detailed crit. which would point out when a line is off meter. I basically rely on hearing pulses or strong beats right now.

Beyond the meter, I saw a few things you may want to consider changing:

The seafront vents an adamantine breeze
that pounds against the pinewoods, moist with rain;
recalls an ancient shrine with russet frieze,
blasts my attendant horse’s mangled mane.

What dreams have slipped my mind these years, or by

Maybe "gone by?" instead of "or by".

what stellar law have failed to lure my heart?

I think you mean "has" and not "have". If you use "gone by", then "what" would be "What"

The tide is tanned with spume this dawn, -I sigh
in sufferance, not wishing to depart.

Use the comma or the dash - not both. I'd use the comma.

Whispering wraithlike shrouds beneath the sea
divine unwritten rules the Fates have bound
to stay my soul, or souls who yearn for me

this morn. My mind forswears such barren ground,
as if today some secret, nameless key
unlocks a source to sway my life around.

Luce

Posted by: Merlin Nov 29 15, 00:05

Hi again Syl.

I'm not really into the critique mode much anymore, as you may have gathered. I'll give a bit now and then, and since few others have jumped in, here goes I.

You have a few mangled metaphors that don't work. If it's a breeze, then adamantine isn't a good adjective, applying more to a storm than a breeze. Unbreakable breeze? Nah. Pounding against pines? Nah. Again in L7 it's this breeze that kicked up a spume on the tide – nah.
Mangled mane isn't the nicest description of your horse… maybe some plains nag.
You have “wraithlike shrouds beneath the sea” in L9, suddenly on “barren ground”, L12. Somebody parting the sea again here…

Back to S1, You have the seafront doing 3 things – venting, recalling, and blasting. I'm not sure of it doing the latter 2. How would it work if L3 moved up to L1 and having the ancient shrine overlooking the seafront, pinewoods and mangled mare?

S2L2 is singular “law”, therefore needs “has”. S2L1&2 should move to 3&4 to keep the thoughts together. Right now they come between the seafront and the tide. You're giving “sufferance” 3 syllables, but most say it in 2.

I'll leave you that for consideration. Your meter seems to be on, and thanks for not rhyming breeze with trees!

Merlin

Posted by: JustDaniel Nov 29 15, 05:29

Dear Syl, you write iambic perfectly,
so do not act as if you are not free
to flip those stanzas 'round as Merlin tells
you he might do at will with your pastels.

He's right that "breeze" cannot do what you write;
I'm sure that what you do will be all right.
I'd offer "sufferance" to how you'd say
that word, but "Wisp'ring" would give less dismay.

Whate'er you choose to "pound" against the woods
methinks would "drench" it; "moist" has not the goods.
And I'm not sure what "sway my life around"
means, but I think that you will hold your ground.

And one more thing, I'm curious about
your triads and their rhyme scheme; give a shout.

deLighting to read you, Daniel

Posted by: Larry Nov 29 15, 09:38

Hi Syl,

I had this all together at midnight last night but became tired and went to bed and this morning find that Merlin was also up then with a critter or two. (“Sufferance is three syllables”)! A lot of it along the same lines I noticed and then Daniel addressed more of it at the crack of dawn with a very passable sonnet of his own while inserting critique in his usual hilarious manner. I’ll just post this behind their two and let you weed out what you will.

Three asterisks, huh? Okay, here is the best I can do for you and I’ll let you take what I offer and go from there. You start with perfect IP and nice alliteration in S1 but “adamantine breeze” is kind of an oxymoron. If this breeze is only firm, a mere zephyr or gentle wind, it would not accomplish by its strength all you are assigning to it. Perhaps substitute “gale” for “breeze”. A breeze of any kind would neither pound against pinewoods nor blast your horse’s mane.
Your rhyming word at the end of L3 might then be changed to “veil” because it is also a type of decoration or to “bell” because a lot of shrines have them or even to “shell” because of where the shrine seems to be situated.
I did like the picture you paint of the raging seafront but was immediately put off by “breeze”. Something much more forceful is needed to match the pounding and blasting going on in that stanza and with more strength, drenched with rain could be a possibility.

S2/L2 – “which” in lieu of “what” (you used what directly above in L1) and then – stellar law “has” or stellar laws “have”


S3/L1 – You start with a dactylic meter (stressed followed by two unstressed syllables). Perhaps – “In whispers, wraithlike shrouds…”


I, like Merlin, also feel that for such a powerful and emotional poem need something more than “source” in the last line. Maybe “fount”!


This is a beautiful piece and you should come over to this side of the fence more often.


Larry

Posted by: Luce Nov 29 15, 15:26

Hi Sylvia,

I usually don't go back to a crit but I should of explained why I liked your poem. It had a surreal quality about it that I enjoyed. It was part dream/part nightmare. Therefore, saying "mangled mane" fitted right in. It's a powerful image. At first I wanted something more pleasant to describe the horse's mane but tangled/knottled mane proved to be a clearer sharper image for me.

I'm glad you got more crits - especially for the meter. You're in good hands.


Luce

Posted by: Psyche Nov 30 15, 01:55

Hi there, Luce, Merlin, Larry and Daniel!

I'm absolutely delighted and grateful that you've taken into account my three ***.
Larry, you've spent time on my piece, words are not enough to express my thanks for your expert critique. I'm glad you like my sonnet...will try to jump in here to learn more.

Daniel, I was highly amused by your poetical crit. I envy the ease with which you handled your response to my *** pleas!

You're all so right about 'adamantine breeze'. I confess to having had my own doubts about that word, but sort of fell in love with it...LOL...it'll have to go.

Luce, you captured the mood of my sonnet very well. It was going that way, a mix of surreal, nightmares and metaphors that readers would find difficult to understand. Tx for returning to tell me that.

Merlin, you've given me quite a bashing, but I don't mind at all. I'll have to try to interpret your crit. I find it a bit complicated. You're so right, rhyming 'breeze' with 'trees' has been used too often, glad I evaded that one!

It's very late here, so I shall work hard on a Revision asap., taking into account everybody's advice, but trying not to get entangled by changing words that would then require new end rhymes and so on. Wow...BTW, I'd looked up 'sufferance' and found that it has 3 syllables!

Must off to bed now, tx and cheers,
Syl***

Posted by: JustDaniel Nov 30 15, 08:54

BTW, my offering sufferance to how you say the word meant that I agree with you. I'd allow you to have three syllables. Depending on the context, it CAN be pronounced with two.

deLighting in your re-visit, Daniel

Posted by: Merlin Nov 30 15, 11:29

Sorry 'bout that, Syl.
I'm a stickler for perfection, so it has to be right for me. Fussy felix.

Re "sufferance", yes, it is 3 syllables in the book, and perhaps some even say it that way. I take the way things are pronounced most often - like chocolate - which is obviously 3 syllables. Do you know anyone who sez choc-o-late? Same goes for boundary, is it boun-da-ree or boundry? However, 3 passes. I was even told that some US states will pronounce children as chill-da-run!

Cómo sufrió por ella.

Merlin

Posted by: AMETHYST Nov 30 15, 12:49

Hi Sylvia,

Beautiful work found here. It is a pleasure to be back reading such lovely images and your view, that only you can offer. First let me thank you for teaching me to new words, 'adamantine' and 'frieze,' both are wonderful words and I have never seen them, or if I have never knew what they meant. Thank you. I might borrow them in future works.

Now to this delight. As I have been out of practice and often have very poor memory, I might have forgotten some terminology or reference, so I will do my best. The rhythem is lovely, perhaps a line or two I felt a stumble, but was eased by the wonderful inner rhymes you have weaved. I especially liked partnership with law/lure in L6.

The transition from Stanza 1 to 2 is smooth. Liked that you take the reader from the view of the narrator to the inner thoughts -connecting them. S3 is my favorite it is chock full of smooth alliteration and deep thought. It inspires the reader to 'feel' the sense of excitement and fear of the unknown. I did however feel that S3 had more power and punch to it that your ending couplet, for which should be the real nugget.

That is minor compared to the enjoyment of this Sonnet and the possibilities it offers. Some minor thoughts in text, I hope I can offer something of worth. As for a name, I am going to think on some suggestions, but I think the title is most likely the most inner thought of what brought this to be born. Look into those thoughts you will find it.

Big Love and Hugs, Glad to be back - Love you, Liz

Posted by: Eisa Dec 1 15, 19:09

I have come to this a little late and I'm about to go to bed, but had to call & say - Stunning!

Syl, I think your break from writing has made your muse even stronger. I'll be back to this later.

Hugs
Eira

Pity about adamantine - such a lovely word that fits meter perfectly.

Posted by: RC James Dec 1 15, 22:20

A lovely, wistful sonnet. I love that word "adamantine" As you know, rhyme and meter are not my forte, but I enjoyed the rhythm, unbroken, and the musicality of it. RC

Posted by: Maureen Dec 6 15, 01:29

How lovely this is Syl - I like the use of words not so often seen in poetry and you mastered that well here - I don't think I would change a thing with it. It is a delightful piece.

Posted by: Psyche Dec 12 15, 23:51

OMG, I've been away from MM for a few days, so I hadn't noticed Liz and Eira's comments. Liz, you've made some excellent remarks, which I shall certainly take into account on revision.

And thank some of you for returning to explain and/or add crits! Shameful of me not to have worked on this one sooner. Seems I don't appreciate your help. But that's precisely why I come 'over the wall', to try to perfect my wobbly R&R!!

As Luce says elsewhere, attempting to preserve some good end rhymes, as well as meditating on wrong word usage or dicey meter, is enough to give one a migraine...LOL...

Nonetheless, you've encouraged me a lot, so I'll work on this one in Word. Then, hopefully, return with a better version.

Tx to all of you,
Syl***
PS: My desktop also crashed, so I've been figuring out how to use Windows10, which appeared on my notebook! Surprise. Not difficult, but takes time to change old habits! Bye for now.

Posted by: Psyche Dec 12 15, 23:56

Thank you, Richard. It seems 'adamantine' is popular! But I'll have to remove it, because I'm happy with my end rhymes. Can't change those, I'm proud of them...LOL.

Will be back,
Syl***

Posted by: Psyche Dec 13 15, 00:03

Tx so much, Maureen. I like to experiment with uncommon words, but all the same I'll try to follow Larry, Merlin, Luce and Liz's advice, as far as I am able.
Won't turn it all around, just some important bits.
You're all so encouraging. Inspiration is slowly returning.
Syl***

Posted by: Psyche Jul 5 16, 02:36

This sonnet remained untouched for so long that I found it on page 3 of this forum.

I know it's still quite wobbly, but I'm hoping some patient sonnet expert will help me once more.

I left ***, so please go ahead without mercy, thank you!

And thanks to all who made such good suggestions the first time around.
I've used a lot of them, but changed the opening line completely.

Syl

Posted by: Larry Jul 5 16, 13:02

Hi Sil,

Your meter and rhyme scheme are excellent but I feel you should lose the spacing between L4/5 and the space between L11/12. Since you forgo the final rhyming couplet, your sonnet falls in the Italian category but into which one, I’m not sure. Your rhyme scheme is abab cdcd efefef and thus may fit in the Indefinable Sonnet category much like Shelly’s Ozymandias whose scheme is unique. I found what is called a Hybrid Sonnet which is a mixture of both the English and Italian forms. This form was used by John Donne among others. Your sonnet most closely fits within these two categories.

As far as a critique, I have little to offer except on your first line, you refer to “Thalia’s jesting pleas”.
This might cause confusion or consternation because there are 4 completely different Thalias in mythology. Thalia, one of the three Graces, Thalia, the muse of comedy and idyllic poetry, Thalia, a Nereid and Thalia a nymph and secondary goddess of vegetation. I narrowed those down to one of the Graces or the Nereid who came out of the sea to mourn for the future death of Achilles. Perhaps the Nereid would most closely fit with your lines: “In whispers, wraith-like shrouds beneath the sea divine unwritten rules the Fates have found to stay my soul”. Either way, your “untitled” poem is beautiful and I’m sorry I have no suggestions to alleviate that title aspect.

Larry

Posted by: Psyche Jul 6 16, 15:33

Thank you so much, Larry, for reviewing my sonnet. If it's a Hybrid that's OK with me. Means I'm getting somewhere!
The Thalia I mean is one of the Three Graces, she's the patron of pastoral and comedy (or parody) events, talents, etc.
I attempted to show an opposition to the Three Fates, the one's who decide your fate or destiny with a spun thread that's measured and cut to define your future whilst still a babe.
It may not be clear and I intend to work more on this, also taking into account your comments. I could mention the name of one of the Fates...maybe.

In Spanish speaking countries the couplet at the end is seldom used. Jorge Luis Borges wrote sonnets without any spacing at all. Just to give an example.

But if I write in English perhaps I should adhere to your rules.
In a hurry now, but will return to read again all you've said, asap. I get the first information on my tablet, love to read things at breakfast!

Thanks again,
Syl

Posted by: Larry Jul 6 16, 17:18

Hi Syl,

You did mention one of the names of the three Graces. That is where the confusion came in. If you are referring to one of the Moirai or what people call the Fates in English, you might sub Lachesis who is said to allot the time on earth or Atropos who is unturnable in her decisions for "Thalia" and still maintain your meter.

As far as writing in English means you should adhere to "rules". Forget about that! Rules are made to be broken and most are merely guidelines. How else would we have 150+ types of sonnets if everyone followed any set rules. Go for it!

Larry

Posted by: Psyche Jul 10 16, 00:32

Thanks again, Larry.

I've reworked some lines, but just left a note below to show the changes.

I hope I've saved the hybrid style whilst tweaking two lines. It's so easy to mess up!

Please tell me when you have time. 150+ types of sonnets is mind-boggling, nonetheless they must surely follow some sort of order!

Merlin or Daniel pointed out to me that many 3 syllable words are pronounced as if they have 2 syllables. I agree with that, something which would also change the meter.
When I was visiting my brother in England, he said that I sounded foreign because I pronounce words clearly! Which of course reminds me of Prof. Higgins, who heard somebody say about his pupil: "Her English is too good, she must be foreign"...and decided she was Hungarian!

Syl

Posted by: Larry Jul 10 16, 12:37

Hi Syl,

I believe you have maintained the aspects of a "Hybrid Sonnet". Thanks for inserting "spindle" because it clarifies, for me, the constant battle between the Graces and the Fates. Too bad no one delves into more mythological subjects. I think they are an interesting read.

Since your minor changes, a possible title popped into my head. It is, of course, a TOT!

Mull over "Threads" if you would. I know it is brief but there is a duality of meaning which is what struck me.

Good job on the revision. I don't know if it is set in stone in your mind but it sure looks like a finished poem to me.

Larry

Posted by: Psyche Jul 10 16, 23:14

Hi again, Larry,

Thanks so much for commenting on the changes. I had quite a bit of trouble inserting 'spindle', chiefly because I had to make sure that it was correct and would help the reader to understand. I wanted to use "Clotho" but I just couldn't fit her into the meter or end rhyme. Or Athropos or Lachesis. I mean in that line, where 'sound' had its rhyming words all used up.

Yes, I like the title "Threads". I'll sleep on it and decide.

I love mythology. I learnt quite a bit when studying ancient and medieval philosophy. But it's a sideline, not a course in itself. Inevitably, it just can't be ignored. We did have to read Theogony...a treat!

Thanks so much for all your help. I have some sonnets tucked away that'll need a lot of working on, but I'll allow you to have a rest...LOL.

Syl

Posted by: Eisa Jul 14 16, 17:25

Wow! This has come on since I last looked.

I loved the word adamantine and wondered how you'd change it to something more appropriate. Now St1 is just perfect -as is the rest. I've read it through many times an can only think to suggest perhaps change 'and' to 'which' in St1 L4 (but on reflection I'm not sure that makes sense LOL!)

Anyway I am very impressed at your recent sonnet writing skills. Keep it up!

Eira

Posted by: Psyche Jul 18 16, 00:31

Thanks so much for visiting again, Eisa.
Glad you approve now! I believe I did make the change you suggest, but this is now page 2 and I can't see my sonnet from here...LOL.

No sonnet skills, I'm afraid. I intend to bring back one or two I never got right, even with help. They must be in the archives!

Hope to see you posting again.

Syl