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> Writing Debate, following Grace's "Rose", Debate Here
Guest_Jox_*
post Jul 16 05, 13:31
Post #21





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Hi Nina...

Wonderful about a child???

You have me totally flumoxed there!

Two words I would never associate. :)

I usually get a feeling of indigestion from my setters!

J.
 
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Guest_Nina_*
post Jul 16 05, 13:40
Post #22





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Hi J

Wonderful about a child???

You have me totally flumoxed there!

Two words I would never associate. :)

LOL.  My two children are wonderfully quiet today.  Both have spent the day lying next to each other on my bed, noses deeply buried in the latest Harry Potter book

I usually get a feeling of indigestion from my setters!
ouch!

Nina
 
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Guest_Jox_*
post Jul 16 05, 14:11
Post #23





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Nina,

oh dear... Harry Potter - now perhaps you'll tell me why people like reading that? I'm just as bemused. I tried five pages and had to escape.

J.
 
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Guest__*
post Jul 16 05, 14:16
Post #24





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Dear Crazy Ones,

Indigestion from setters ? The PERFECT answer :





is











coming












up











in just












a












mo' :












settLers !

Love
Alan
 
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Guest_Jox_*
post Jul 16 05, 17:13
Post #25





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Alan,

I've just noticed "Settlers" - ouch! LOL.

J.
 
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Guest_Nina_*
post Jul 16 05, 17:29
Post #26





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Hi J

We have to see the characters under pressure, in conflict and so on - but the action necessary to show this can be minimal.
If the action is minimal how do you go about developing the characters, yet advance and keep the plot moving, convince the reader that the story is heading somewhere and keep him/her interested enough to read through over 300 odd pages of a book?  How do you avoid conversations being trite and irrelevant?

Nina
 
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Guest_Jox_*
post Jul 16 05, 17:49
Post #27





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Hi Nina,

Excellent question.

I think the best thing which I can do is to recommend reading LeCarre (say "Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Spy"). He is supreme at that. There is a plot and action - even murders. But essentially it is highly character-orientated.

No, a whole novel cannot realistically be based only on conversations - such would not work. But, then again, conversations can be between different people, in different places about different subjects with different inter-relations and pressures.

Personally I'm not interested in reading a moving plot or the story going anywhere - if I find fascinating characters I can read forever. If I detect only plot / action I lose interest.

However, I admit that, in terms of writing, I have to use more plot than I personally like reading, simply because most people have different tastes from me.

You mention conversations becoming trite and irrelevant. But irrelevant to what? I don't care if they don't drive the plot - but I do care if they don't develop the characters.

Fascinating, thanks.

J.
 
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Guest_Nina_*
post Jul 17 05, 01:07
Post #28





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Hi J

I think a good book needs to get the balance right between characterisation and storyline.  It is important to get into the psyche of the characters, especially the main one - to be able to "to get under his/her skin" feel that you know him/her very well so that as a reader I can put myself into their experience, feel what the character is feeling.   I also like to see in my mind what is happening.  I need to feel the story is going somewhere, that there is a reason to keep on reading to the end. I hate coming to the end of a book and thinking "yes, it was quite interesting psychologically but nothing happened" or hmmm I could just as well have sat on the tube and listened to two strangers having a conversation and then made up a life for them (quite good fun to do).

Reading is a form of escapism, to live out for a short while an experience that I wouldn't normally have. If I don't get that experience I feel cheated. When I get to the end of a book I like to feel that I wish the book had not finished. I also quite like to have learnt something I didn't know so accuracy is important particularly for historical novels.

Why I enjoy children's books more than adult is that there seems to be much more originality and freedom for imagination/fantasy.  Adult fiction can often be very formulaic, the storyline/plot very predictable. Having said that I did read a highly original, gripping love story on holiday - The Time Travellers Wife, which was very cleverly done and had (in my opinion) a good balance of characterisation and plot, though there were a couple of things she wrote in that I thought did nothing for the story and in fact spoilt it a bit.

As you said fascinating discussion, thanks

Nina




 
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Guest_Toumai_*
post Jul 17 05, 01:49
Post #29





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Hi, Grace
This is so lovely - can really see the child so exuberant and then so sleepy; beautiful descriptions. No suggestions - I enjoyed this very much. My only even slightly negative comment would be that I take 'barefoot' in conjunction with 'cornfield' as poetic licence - I've tried it and it hurts!

Hi, James, Nina
what a fascinating discussion about what makes for good reading. I think I'm more inclined to Nina's view - but the world would be a very boring place if we all likes the same things (and there'd be no hope at all for all wannabe novelists).

Fran
 
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Guest_Jox_*
post Jul 17 05, 02:37
Post #30





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Hi Nina,

This discussion is great in Grace's tile and she's gone away I think - but sometime I'll move it to de-clutter her tile. I think it deserves moving, rather than scrapping - it is worth reading (I hope!). Anyway, for now, to continue...

>N>I think a good book needs to get the balance right between characterisation and storyline.

I would approach that t'other way round - a book needs a storyline to help the characters.

>N>It is important to get into the psyche of the characters, especially the main one - to be able to "to get under his/her skin" feel that you know him/her very well so that as a reader I can put myself into their experience, feel what the character is feeling.

OK, well I don't actually put myself in any characters - I want to know what makes them tick, from their perspective, not mine. But that mention of the one character is what is wrong with so many novels for me - they rely on just one character - that never works for me.

>N>I also like to see in my mind what is happening.  I need to feel the story is going somewhere, that there is a reason to keep on reading to the end.

Interesting characters do that for me.

>N>I hate coming to the end of a book and thinking "yes, it was quite interesting psychologically but nothing happened" or...

LOl we are different. Lots happen on Bond books but, for me, they are utterly dire. No characterisation of any real merit - "Candy Floss" as LeCarre said. I really don't care about action - in fact, I'd prefer to see Bond on tv for that fun. (And the characters are better-developed anyway).

>N>hmmm I could just as well have sat on the tube and listened to two strangers having a conversation and then made up a life for them (quite good fun to do).

YES!!! Quite - that is my point. There you have your novel if you want to write one. Why not put your ideas on some electrons and see what happens?

>F>Reading is a form of escapism,

Can be - though I read a great deal of factual work, too. (I'm a political junkie).

>N> to live out for a short while an experience that I wouldn't normally have.

Nope, not why I read. I read to see why others do what they do. I watch 007 on DVD for escapism.

>N> If I don't get that experience I feel cheated. When I get to the end of a book I like to feel that I wish the book had not finished.

Sure, a book needs closure. I agree there. But I don’t look for any particular experience - just something interesting. Some unknown journey - but psychological more than physical.

>F> I also quite like to have learnt something I didn't know so accuracy is important particularly for historical novels.

Ah! I don’t like historical novels. In fact I don’t like most genres of novels - historic, children’s, Sci-Fi, thrillers, horror nor fantasy. There are exceptions, of course but usually, that is a fair guide. In fact, now you mention it, there are not many novels I really do like. John LeCarre and Len Deighton  are way ahead in my fav authors. Robert Harris is excellent too. Jack Higgins and Colin Dexter are in the area of espionage which I love and I’ve read a lot of their books but always feel grumpy after at the relatively poor characterisation. The only Sci-Fi exception I know is HG Wells - love his books. My most hated book of all time (because I did stick with it and read it, as opposed to giving up quickly) is Brown’s “Da Vinci Code” - I thought it drivel. I felt deeply cheated. It is no worse written that, say Forbes’ books, in my opinion but its aims and comments are much more peudo-aspirational.

>N>Why I enjoy children's books more than adult is that there seems to be much more originality and freedom for imagination/fantasy.

Ah! I don’t like reading about children (the novels I read tend to air-brush them out which suits me fine) and I don’t like fantasy. Have tried reading Terry Prachett (someone very kindly bought me a couple of his books) - keep trying but all the fantasy keeps getting in the way for me. I like novels grounded in reality.

>N>Adult fiction can often be very formulaic, the storyline/plot very predictable.

Then forget the storyline - I do. In fact, I always trip up because by page 24 I can’t remember what is happening.

>N> Having said that I did read a highly original, gripping love story on holiday - The Time Travellers Wife, which was very cleverly done and had (in my opinion) a good balance of characterisation and plot, though there were a couple of things she wrote in that I thought did nothing for the story and in fact spoilt it a bit.

Is that Sci-Fi or just a mis-leading title?

>N>As you said fascinating discussion, thanks

Thank you Nina!

J.
 
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Guest_Jox_*
post Jul 17 05, 02:40
Post #31





Guest






Hi Fran,

>F>what a fascinating discussion about what makes for good reading. I think I'm more inclined to Nina's view - but the world would be a very boring place if we all likes the same things (and there'd be no hope at all for all wannabe novelists).

I think most people would agree with Nina; I realise I'm a maverick. No I'll re-phrase, I'm more of a maverick than you and Nina. Most people just want pap. Bond and Davinci Code all round?

Cheers, J.
 
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Guest_Toumai_*
post Jul 17 05, 02:51
Post #32





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James,

Aaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrgggggh!

(heartfelt comment on Da Vinci Code Wall.gif)

Fran
 
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Guest_Jox_*
post Jul 17 05, 03:34
Post #33





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Fran

Agreement! :)

J.
 
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Guest_Nina_*
post Jul 17 05, 03:44
Post #34





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Hi J

OK, well I don't actually put myself in any characters - I want to know what makes them tick, from their perspective, not mine.
I agree, I just see what makes them tick by "stepping into their shoes", looking at the world from their perspective.

But that mention of the one character is what is wrong with so many novels for me - they rely on just one character - that never works for me.
I have read some books that move from one character to another, looking at a situation from each perspective.  It can get confusing if not well written, the reader is not sure whose head they are inside.

>N> Having said that I did read a highly original, gripping love story on holiday - The Time Travellers Wife, which was very cleverly done and had (in my opinion) a good balance of characterisation and plot, though there were a couple of things she wrote in that I thought did nothing for the story and in fact spoilt it a bit.

Is that Sci-Fi or just a mis-leading title?

well, I suppose in a library it would be classed as Sci-Fi but it isn't really.  Very briefly, the story is about a man who has a genetic disorder.  Whenever he gets stressed or anxious he travels backwards in time.  One of the places he often ends up, is his wife's back garden at a time when she was a child.  He keeps appearing all through her childhood.  It is quite a complicated, keeping track of whether he is in the past or present as the story moves forward in time in the present as well as the past (if that makes any sense) but I did enjoy it because it was original and different to the boring same old, same old love story.

Ah! I don’t like historical novels. In fact I don’t like most genres of novels - historic, children’s, Sci-Fi, thrillers, horror nor fantasy. There are exceptions, of course but usually, that is a fair guide. In fact, now you mention it, there are not many novels I really do like.
I find that very interesting.  So are you trying to write the sort of novel you would love to be able to find on the bookshelves to read yourself?  I'm intrigued.

>N>hmmm I could just as well have sat on the tube and listened to two strangers having a conversation and then made up a life for them (quite good fun to do).

YES!!! Quite - that is my point. There you have your novel if you want to write one. Why not put your ideas on some electrons and see what happens?

I'm not sure I'd be any good at writing a novel, I think I'm perhaps a bit too minimalistic in my approach.  I think I'd struggle and I find the whole idea somewhat daunting.

Nina
 
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Guest__*
post Jul 17 05, 03:55
Post #35





Guest






Dear Jox, Fran and Nina,

Surely there is a typo :

The correct name of that book is :

The Da Vinci Cod

Love
Alan
 
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Guest_Jox_*
post Jul 17 05, 03:59
Post #36





Guest






Hi Nina,

>J>But that mention of the one character is what is wrong with so many novels for me - they rely on just one character - that never works for me.
>N>I have read some books that move from one character to another, looking at a situation from each perspective.  It can get confusing if not well written, the reader is not sure whose head they are inside.

Sure, experimental fiction like that is a pain in the anatomy. I love literary experiments but I think a whole novel like that is too much.

What I meant is an omnipotent stance but showing how the characters think / feel by their conversations / actions - not playing first-person with different characters. Messy.

Len Deignton writes first person - but from one perspective.

>N> Having said that I did read a highly original, gripping love story on holiday - The Time Travellers Wife, which was very cleverly done and had (in my opinion) a good balance of characterisation and plot, though there were a couple of things she wrote in that I thought did nothing for the story and in fact spoilt it a bit.
>J>Is that Sci-Fi or just a mis-leading title?
>N>well, I suppose in a library it would be classed as Sci-Fi but it isn't really.

Yes, any classification system is crude.

>N>Very briefly, the story is about a man who has a genetic disorder.  Whenever he gets stressed or anxious he travels backwards in time.

err sounds a tad sci-fi to me, though :)

>N>One of the places he often ends up, is his wife's back garden at a time when she was a child.  He keeps appearing all through her childhood.

Bad Wolf! Sounds familiar. (Dr Who tv Series 2005)

>N>It is quite a complicated, keeping track of whether he is in the past or present as the story moves forward in time in the present as well as the past (if that makes any sense) but I did enjoy it because it was original and different to the boring same old, same old love story.

Thank you.

>J>Ah! I don’t like historical novels. In fact I don’t like most genres of novels - historic, children’s, Sci-Fi, thrillers, horror nor fantasy. There are exceptions, of course but usually, that is a fair guide. In fact, now you mention it, there are not many novels I really do like.
>N>I find that very interesting.  So are you trying to write the sort of novel you would love to be able to find on the bookshelves to read yourself?  I'm intrigued.

Well, on my fourth / sixth attempt - depends how I classify it! I can find the novels - LeCarre is my ideal but Deighton is excellent. I'll never achieve the former but try to aspire to the latter (but very very very far behind).

LeCarre does write espionage books but their proper classification (back to that) would be literature. He really is concerned with the human condition. para-Quote (can't remember the exact words) from the cover of TTS, Spy: "George Smiley is a brilliant spy but doesn't understand people."

>N>hmmm I could just as well have sat on the tube and listened to two strangers having a conversation and then made up a life for them (quite good fun to do).
>J>YES!!! Quite - that is my point. There you have your novel if you want to write one. Why not put your ideas on some electrons and see what happens?
>N>I'm not sure I'd be any good at writing a novel, I think I'm perhaps a bit too minimalistic in my approach.  I think I'd struggle and I find the whole idea somewhat daunting.

Then "play" with short stories for a while to reduce dauntingness.

Minimialism is good - too many novels waffle needlessly. Good novellists write then pare the words without mercy. Really, like poetry, every word should count in an ideal novel. So you may find writing one easier than me (I - as everyone can see - waffle endlessly).

Why not write that short story about one aspect of your tube travellers. Then maybe another... ? (Saves being daunted).

You certainly can write - like most writers sounds like you need to get over your own mind first :)

J.
 
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Guest_Nina_*
post Jul 17 05, 04:10
Post #37





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Hi Alan

Surely there is a typo :

The correct name of that book is :

The Da Vinci Cod


ROFL

I can't comment as I haven't read the book.

Nina
 
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Guest_Jox_*
post Jul 17 05, 04:28
Post #38





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Hi Alan,

ROFL!!

Yes and an enormous cod at that - on a vast scale!

Still, Brown is rich and I'm not so I shall try to learn.

J.
 
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Guest_Nina_*
post Jul 17 05, 04:35
Post #39





Guest






Hi J

Bad Wolf! Sounds familiar. (Dr Who tv Series 2005)
I haven't watched this series of Dr Who so it means nothing to me.

What I meant is an omnipotent stance but showing how the characters think / feel by their conversations / actions - not playing first-person with different characters. Messy.
agreed  :grinning:


You certainly can write - like most writers sounds like you need to get over your own mind first :)
thank you :).  Ahh yes my mind........that tall, dark, slippery, moss covered wall inside my head.

Nina
 
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Guest_Jox_*
post Jul 17 05, 04:47
Post #40





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Hi Nina,

Sorry about Bad Wolf. Why never watched? Fab prog. Anyway, as Rose (the Dr's companion) travells back and forth through time, the phrase "Bad Wolf" seems to follow her everywhere.

>N>Ahh yes my mind........that tall, dark, slippery, moss covered wall inside my head.

Mossy Moot? Wonderful. Such depth and fertile ground.

J.
 
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