Poetic Opinions, general discussion Options

[Guest_Don_*]

Posted by Don on January 28, 2006

Dear Ron,

To my chagrin what you say about academians stressing free verse and crushng the key feature of meter with syllable count is true around this neck of the woods.  I belong to a writer's club consisting of a high percentage of teachers and their students.  My last submission was blank verse in iambic pentameter.  I was taken by surprise when a student mentioned that he did not see why iambic pentameter was employed.  I explained to him that to my knowledge iambic pentameter was very proper for blank verse.  "I could be wrong now," as popularized by a situation program on TV.

To compound my distress, two teachers requested that it be rewritten in free verse so that they could better understand what was said.  I would have torn some hair from by head, except follicals are already gone.  One advised using anapest.  

Being trained in hardcore iambic, I tend to be terse and avoid double connectors such as, "and the, or while, etc." that bends toward conversational mode, which is a free verse bias.  The prevelant argument for anapest over iambic seems to be the popular insistence on extra connectors.

I would like to discuss your lines below as regarding anapest.  Firstly, the anapest works very well.  I read the second line as the only pure anapest, which happens to be three feet.  The softer endings of lines one and three destroy the pure anapest to me.  Am I wrong?  Line one is a mix of anapest/ iambic/ peon (one stress in four).

Your choice of chaTEAU is perfect.  The pleasant deviation from primary meter is well placed. Am I wrong to scan "of my chaTEAU" as a one stress in four peon.  

when the MOON peeks Over the LAKEside
and the STARS come aLIVE with their GLOW,
then the SMILE on my FACE i must MAKE wide
as i PEER from the PORCH of my chaTEAU.

Looking forward to enlightenment.

Don

Posted by Ron/dgdittier on January 30, 2006
Dear Don,
Lately I have become more interested in writing about verse than in writing verse itself.
You give me a great opportunity.
I'm becoming more and more fascinated by any parallels between music and verse. No one, even the advocates of free verse, especially they) have emphasized a connection between their free verse and music. I can't read music but I'm sure my ears can detect the difference between music and noise. (I'm amazed that apparently so many young people can't discern the difference.)
I've been writing verse now for just about 5 years and I'm finding my intent more and more favoring the musical aspects of verse.
I've always thought of marches and waltzes as my favorites and have been trying to emulate them in my verse.
When I write in anapest I think I hear a waltz! It may be the onset of alzheimers, but if I can maintain that meter, even with the necessary
divergences such as the "chateau" caused, I fall in love with my own pieces.
I find too, that my tastes prefer alternating but repetitive lines of differing length, usually even to odd.
I'm always open to writing in ballad meter with internal rhymes:
-/-/a-/-/a
-/-/-/-b
-/-/c-/-/c
-/-/-/-b
so when you see one of these appear, you'll know I'm a happy camper.
I suppose it's obvious I've never had any schooling in poem writing which I consider a great boon in that academia has not poisoned
my taste for real poetry the way the bards of yore wrote it.
It amazes me that academia has so much trouble understanding the
ploys of those bards of yore and now like their poetry written more like a newspaper report. They of all should be promoting our rich poetic heritage instead of treating it as a now passed fancy.
Cheers,   Ron  jgd

Posted by Ron on January 30, 2006
Dear Don,
Pardon the gush.
Verse for me is both the joy of my life and the greatest frustration as I see one of mankind's most glorious institutions (poetry) being stripped of its essentials and thrown on the scrap heap of history.
"A pleasant deviation from primary meter" was the thrust of your question. For me, I prefer what I call repetitive mixed meter. Repetitive in that after the first stanza, the reader should be able to predict where the accents fall and the rhyme pairs occur. Occasional exceptions due to necessity or where they add to the piece, but as rare as possible. "Chateau" in this case was a necessity as I couldn't
avoid "of my". How I'd like to condense it into one unstressed syllable!
You've given me a thought! The cabin's name should be changed to "One Unstressed Syllable"
Hope I've answered your question this time.
Cheers,   Ron  jgd

Posted by Don on January 30, 2006
Dear Ron,

I did not get your opinion of the peon--one stress in four--applicable to your first stanza example.

I too am glad not to have been poisoned by popular formal poetry trends or creative writing classes.  I did purchase and study The Great Courses tapes, How to Read and Understand Poetry by Professor Willard Spiegelman.  I firmly believe Americans (USA) are drinking the toxic water more than Europeans.  I am also being mentored by an elderly lady (my age) who usually insists upon strict iambic and definitely sticks to rhyme and meter forms.

Academically many of the forms are misleading insisting on syllable count.  A  special case is that iambic meter and syllable count match, which are stressed  for medium level students without differentiating; but one eventually must choose between syllables per line or metric feet per line.  I think the better poets wean themselves away from counting syllables and employ number of feet per line.  Syllables are a stepping stone just like iambic is a stepping stone.  Iambic became predominant when most people frequently read the King James Bible.  That meter has since become less conversational.  

Expecting poetry to be conversational is another personal chagrin.

I think the professional poets have ultimate control over meter and the academic experts do not want to be bothered.

Cheers

Don

Posted by Ron on January 31, 2006
Dear Don,
The option to discuss our thoughts about poetry is an enticement I can't refuse.
You are interested in the mechanics of poetry, so we are soul -brothers even if our thoughts differ. At least we care!!!
I've much to learn, so I ask first, what in detail do you mean by not being poisoned?
You've mentioned sources for poetic thought that I would surely want to obtain and study if you think them worthy. I've only 'till now my inner voice to rely on.
As to iambic, I'm committed to repetitive meter, but not only iambic. Longfellow writes much in triple beat which sets off similar vibrations in me. I believe the other three feet have their place and are under-used even by the bards of yore whom I admire greatly.
As to conversational anything, I'd keep it far from poetry/verse. P/V is much too majestic to sound in any way like prose or conversation. I want P/V to be as unlikre them as possible. I too am chagrinned.
I don't know why academia is generally devoid of their own opinions of what makes poetry sublime, but by stealing away from poetry its ploys and the characteristics that differentiate it from common prose
are doing the arts no favor.
I fear this topic should be located elsewhere, not about a cabin/chateau in the boonies.
Cheers,   Ron  jgd
--------------------------------

[Guest_Don_*]

Dear Ron,

I believe everyone cares. The issue is what do we care about.

I consider myself a throwback regarding the details being cared about.  I learned poetry outside the USA schools, and thereby, escaped being indoctrinated in toxins of free verse, conversational mode, and being innovative and creative as possible.  I have been fortunate to be guided by a few really good amatuer European poets and my current mentor in Texas is a reasonably hard core rhyme and meter enthusiast.  She insists on what is easy for her to review and takes us to contest winning level.  In my case winning contests and being traditionally published is less satisfying than mastering self satisfaction.

I do enjoy some well written free verse, but as professor Willard Spiegelman said in a lecture, one must know what they are doing to write it well and that is rare.  His analysis was primarily on the romantic and first half 20th century poets.

And so my bias is set as I learn nuances of the art from others as well as pondering my inner voice.  For instance it is my conclusion that mastering meter more than syllable count is superior.  

I do not recommend any specific texts or poets to study.  I only intended to outline my foundation bias.  

I gained an insight as to why teachers take the easy road teaching poetry.  A neighboring community was blessed with a known Ohio poet whom acquired a grant to introduce poetry to various grammar schools.  The students were preteens and teens who are reticent to express emotions.  The instructors goal is to draw them out to express themselves.  Free verse is easiest form as it allows illusion of being free of tons of details they have little time to explore.  Why the college level continues the practice I do not know.  The literary world of professional prose critics and writers is a modern Gordian knot, which I fail to fathom.  They are tightly entangled to the point that I don't care.  In poetry I know what I like and I know what I prefer to pursue.

I would like to expand my practical grasp and practice of meter beyond iambic and would like to pay less attention to relative easy syllable counting. I am certain Robert Service mastered meter more than icus sums.

Hopefully a few such as yourself may lead me or support experimentation in desired growth.  I am very much a beginner and know enough to be dangerous to myself.  Let us keep the wagons together in this strange land.

Cheers   Don