critting: what is expected, an invitation to discuss Options

[Guest_Toumai_*]

Hi everyone,

I have been reading with great interest the comments on what type of critique various members would ideally like to receive, which gives valuable insight for all of us learning this process.

Critting work is almost as much of an art form as writing.

One important lesson I have learnt, is that a crit does not necessarily mean offering suggestions for improvement.  What I enjoy most when critting work is when I can offer my own interpretations of what I have read.  Sometimes I grasp the meaning and sometimes I do not, especially If the poem is very abstract.

Extract from NINA's comments.

As a 'newbie' to all of this I doubt very much if I can crit as any poet - or prose writer - would ideally like, and I often feel I should beg indulgence for my ineptitude as I stumble along the path of learning.

However, I also wonder if it is ever fair to say to a critter 'this is how I wish to be critted' as the critter is the one doing the work at this stage. If a piece of work is in an open crit forum it may be interpreted in many different ways, seen in many different lights.

So what if it is a form piece that will only be published in such a journal eventually - perhaps a new insight will arise from review by those more used to free verse. So what if it is a means to a message - a discussion of rhythm may improve it's flow.

With love to all - and appreciation for all the wonderful crits I have received here on MM - thank you.

Fran

[Guest_Jox_*]

Fran, these are excellent points which you raise...

Partly, it's why I use "please" a couple of times on my version. I am humbled by any crit and appreciate people's efforts, thought, skill and time. Basically I'd take almost anything but, instead, I am very lucky to be here and receive such high quality crits.

I think your point about "cross-fertilization" is also excellent. And, indeed, I shall continue to crit form poems unless that particular writer only wishes for response concerning the form. In which case, I'm not qualified (because I'm ignorant, unrhythmic and disinterested). But if I can help with other aspects of the poem and that's wished, I will endeavour so to do.

However, I do think there is another side to this...

I actually think it is helpful if the writer defines the parameters which they need help with. If someone crits my rhythm I shalln't be rude and tell them I've put up "no rhythm crits thanks." But, for those who do read what I put up, they can save themselves much effort which would be wasted on me.

Don't take this wrongly, I don't think that there is a single member of MM whose crit I wouldn't appreciate. However, pure formists know that they can help me best, and avoid wasted time, by helping me with other aspects. These are aspects all writers have to work at and are very well within their capability to comment upon.

So, as a critter, I find it useful to know that X is a form poem, written by a form poet but, in any case, they would like to know if all the words seem to work etc. I can then help. On t'other hand, I also appreciate others saving me the time of agonizing over a difficult crit for ages if it's not what they are looking for.

>>As a 'newbie' to all of this I doubt very much if I can crit as any poet - or prose writer - would ideally like, and I often feel I should beg indulgence for my ineptitude as I stumble along the path of learning.

Stop being so self-critical. You have provided some excellent crits. Only today, you enabled me to finish a poem with a far better ending than I had thought of. So you’re wrong. You did crit as I ideally liked and, via Alan, Nina and yourself, I’m delighted with the outcome - at least so far and I cannot see many more major changes ahead

>>If a piece of work is in an open crit forum it may be interpreted in many different ways, seen in many different lights.

Interpretation is wonderful. Grace apologised to me twice for “wrong interpretations” of my work. Today’s she’s been back declaring a different interpretation and I’m delighted. Who puts work up simply for clone-like rubber-stamping? So I hope Grace, nor anyone, will never again apologise for reading and thinking about the work and deciding on their “take.” But I don’t think asking for particular types of crit does that, does it? I suppose one could frame a crit request anywhichway... “I only want to know if I use more than four “W”s in a work. Nothing else matters. But, in general, the writers are asking critters to pay particular attention to certain areas and don’t bother with others, please.

>>So what if it is a means to a message - a discussion of rhythm may improve it's flow

I agree! For others but, personally, since I simply cannot see a rhythm / flow to virtually any poem I simply find it very frustrating - almost upsetting - to be told several times it would be better if I used this word... I simply can take almost none of that (presumably good) advice because no one has yet been able to explain to me what they mean. I need an intellectual explanation. Recourse to written rhythm or music is hopeless - I can never keep time to music and never see a rhythm. I can see TS Eliot’s “Skimbleshanks,” railway cat and Queen’s “Death on Two Legs” rhythms of a train and a snake - but they are so very obvious. So, until someone can leave sound and emotion behind in explaining rhythm, I’m lost. I agree it might be helpful if I could use it but we’re all wasting our time if I cannot. I’ve realised this because of Alan’s kind and heroic attempts to ba-dum me. I simply had no clue whatsoever what he meant. I simply didn’t see it. From that point I knew I should go in a different direction. Ignorance is not bliss; it is simply a pragmatic state. So I do appreciate being able to say to people “please don’t waste your time with me on rhythm.” Of course, if anyone can logically explain what is rhythm and what is not and why it matters I’ll listen and appreciate that - but I’m not willing to just accept people telling me “use this because it’s a better rhythm” - I can’t do that.

Sorry for the quick note but I hope it answers in both agreement and disagreement, your points from my perspective.

tatty-bye.

James.