Hi all,
Just a quick note to everyone (please do respond) about the posting of poems for crit and the responses.
It may be just my misconception but I think I detect fairly recent trend for members to put poems out for crit, receive substantial crit then reply just with a quick passing phrase. Sometimes this is compounded by return crits which are just a couple of lines of insubstantial thoughts. I know this is prevalent on many sites but has not been the tradition at MM; we have always offered a very good service to our writers.
Now, I know I can be at t'other end of the scale, in terms of large crits, and I certainly don't expect everyone to be there. I'm also sure I have failed to properly respond to my critics sometimes (sorry!) However...
I do think that, when critics take the time and trouble to go through a work with great care (as is often the case on MM), then recipients have a duty to offer a proper reply, both acknowledging the crit and addressing the points raised. I also believe that they ought to return crits (not necessarily directly to the same person) which have a useful quality.
I may be wrong about this trend, so I would really like to hear what others think.
Thanks for reading.
James.
Full Version: Responding to criticisms of work
Mosaic Musings...interactive poetry reviews > Miscellaneous Playground > Miscellaneous Playground > Announcements -> Basilica
I personally have not found crit unwarranted of addressing thanks to each for their input and usually expressing difference of opinion that may exist. Grammar may be an issue as it takes time to crit and is not neccessarily accepted, and discussions of why or why not tend to be missing as nature of the bird.
I often have trouble being understood because my poems are too short and underdeveloped, but I doubt my critics are unappreciative of my appreciation of their efforts to draw me out.
Since Zeus, I've been less detailed unless knowing what the person desires by guess or their directly asking. For example, Jox requested to know whether or not a specific work was pretentious. New members are always a question mark. By similar token I've become familiar with experienced members who dispense with pretentious R & M and to my chagrin a few who prefer to ignore punctuation. Related detail is excluded from my comments to these persons. I'm pretty certain they are not going to thank me for what they do not care to hear.
Sometimes someone asks for help in meter, which can take a lot of effort and time. These critics should be especially thanked because the time expended is excessive.
I try to avoid becoming a mutual admiration society, which is beneficial for chat than improving skills. I am very bad about not commenting on works that I think are written badly or are of disinterest. I let others and the MM moderators have their way with them.
Where anyone finds my appreciation and or explanations lacking, please let me know. I apologize for the a pile of revisions based on MM inputs to do.
Don
I often have trouble being understood because my poems are too short and underdeveloped, but I doubt my critics are unappreciative of my appreciation of their efforts to draw me out.
Since Zeus, I've been less detailed unless knowing what the person desires by guess or their directly asking. For example, Jox requested to know whether or not a specific work was pretentious. New members are always a question mark. By similar token I've become familiar with experienced members who dispense with pretentious R & M and to my chagrin a few who prefer to ignore punctuation. Related detail is excluded from my comments to these persons. I'm pretty certain they are not going to thank me for what they do not care to hear.
Sometimes someone asks for help in meter, which can take a lot of effort and time. These critics should be especially thanked because the time expended is excessive.
I try to avoid becoming a mutual admiration society, which is beneficial for chat than improving skills. I am very bad about not commenting on works that I think are written badly or are of disinterest. I let others and the MM moderators have their way with them.
Where anyone finds my appreciation and or explanations lacking, please let me know. I apologize for the a pile of revisions based on MM inputs to do.
Don
Hi Don,
Thanks for your reply.
Thanks for your reply.
Hi J
Thanks for raising this question.
Critting can take time and effort and I know what a valuable commodity time is in our hectic live but it is one of the most important aspects of this forum. It is the reason MM came into existence. When I first joined MM, I found the notion of critting quite daunting, I had never done so before and wasn’t sure I had much to offer. I took a deep breath and plunged in. Now, having been here for a year I can see just how much I have benefited. By receiving crit, critting other poems and prose and receiving good feedback, I have learnt so much more about writing than I would have done by just posting my work on a non-crit site or one where everyone merely says “great poem, well done”.
I do get frustrated if I offer a crit, especially if it is my interpretation on a poem and get no feedback. How do I know whether my interpretation is correct or way off the mark?
Without a reasonable response how can I improve as a critter or learn what members want or don’t want in a crit? James for example, gives excellent feedback and through this interaction, I have discovered what he is (and isn’t) looking for in a crit. I’m not bothered if the poster doesn’t agree with my suggestions, in fact I’d rather they were honest and politely said thanks but I prefer to stick with the original after all my crits are only my personal view of a poem and are not necessarily right, I’m no expert.
I would hate to see a trend towards one-line comments as crit and in response to a crit and I hope we are not heading that way. For me much of the pleasure of this site comes from the warm interaction between poster and critter even if we may not be in agreement especially over concepts and ideas (as James and Fran know only too well).
Nina
Thanks for raising this question.
Critting can take time and effort and I know what a valuable commodity time is in our hectic live but it is one of the most important aspects of this forum. It is the reason MM came into existence. When I first joined MM, I found the notion of critting quite daunting, I had never done so before and wasn’t sure I had much to offer. I took a deep breath and plunged in. Now, having been here for a year I can see just how much I have benefited. By receiving crit, critting other poems and prose and receiving good feedback, I have learnt so much more about writing than I would have done by just posting my work on a non-crit site or one where everyone merely says “great poem, well done”.
I do get frustrated if I offer a crit, especially if it is my interpretation on a poem and get no feedback. How do I know whether my interpretation is correct or way off the mark?
Without a reasonable response how can I improve as a critter or learn what members want or don’t want in a crit? James for example, gives excellent feedback and through this interaction, I have discovered what he is (and isn’t) looking for in a crit. I’m not bothered if the poster doesn’t agree with my suggestions, in fact I’d rather they were honest and politely said thanks but I prefer to stick with the original after all my crits are only my personal view of a poem and are not necessarily right, I’m no expert.
I would hate to see a trend towards one-line comments as crit and in response to a crit and I hope we are not heading that way. For me much of the pleasure of this site comes from the warm interaction between poster and critter even if we may not be in agreement especially over concepts and ideas (as James and Fran know only too well).
Nina
Hi Nina,
Thanks for your reply - and your kind comments!
J.
Thanks for your reply - and your kind comments!
J.
James,
I tend to try to offer positive feedback and I pall in comparison to the lenghty crits that are offered by you, Nina, Fran, etc. I admire how all of you have the time to completely dissect a poem and then re-write it.
I like to find one small area that is worth mentioning/improving/changing and offer my suggestion for a revision, hoping that what I surfaced was not already addressed.
I find that the author needs to hear from as many readers as possible, but not everyone has the capacitiy to provide a line by line total rewrite as a means of offering a response.
I believe that everyone should offer their sincere comments, even if they may not be linear dissections. A mix of feedback: punctuation corrections; format changes; word substitutions; thoughts on theme and overall content is very much needed by everyone....sometimes a single crit can cover all of these and sometimes they will come in very abbreviated responses from multiple sources.
JLY
I tend to try to offer positive feedback and I pall in comparison to the lenghty crits that are offered by you, Nina, Fran, etc. I admire how all of you have the time to completely dissect a poem and then re-write it.
I like to find one small area that is worth mentioning/improving/changing and offer my suggestion for a revision, hoping that what I surfaced was not already addressed.
I find that the author needs to hear from as many readers as possible, but not everyone has the capacitiy to provide a line by line total rewrite as a means of offering a response.
I believe that everyone should offer their sincere comments, even if they may not be linear dissections. A mix of feedback: punctuation corrections; format changes; word substitutions; thoughts on theme and overall content is very much needed by everyone....sometimes a single crit can cover all of these and sometimes they will come in very abbreviated responses from multiple sources.
JLY
Hi John,
Thank you for your comments. Appreciated.
J.
Thank you for your comments. Appreciated.
J.
Hi John
>J>I tend to try to offer positive feedback
I think crits should always include positive feedback, highlighting the the qualities of a poem as well as gently offering suggestions. Having been at the receiving end of negative feedback, I know how much it can knock a writer's confidence.
>J>and I pall in comparison to the lenghty crits that are offered by you,
It's the quality of the crit rather than the quantity that's important.
>J>Nina, Fran, etc. I admire how all of you have the time to completely dissect a poem and then re-write it.
I would hope that my suggestions enhance and polish the words and message already in the poem rather than completely dissect and re-write it.
Thanks
Nina
>J>I tend to try to offer positive feedback
I think crits should always include positive feedback, highlighting the the qualities of a poem as well as gently offering suggestions. Having been at the receiving end of negative feedback, I know how much it can knock a writer's confidence.
>J>and I pall in comparison to the lenghty crits that are offered by you,
It's the quality of the crit rather than the quantity that's important.
>J>Nina, Fran, etc. I admire how all of you have the time to completely dissect a poem and then re-write it.
I would hope that my suggestions enhance and polish the words and message already in the poem rather than completely dissect and re-write it.
Thanks
Nina
Hello James,
I think you approach a very iimportant issue.
I began interacting in poetry sites 6 years ago and the thing made one site so unique was the open, accepted and appreciated efforts of the mods and members at critiquing work or just going through a poem emphasizing what touched them in it etc...
I'm afraid I'm guilty of not offering much on the critiquing front and you are so right to turn the attention to that slight. Any work is deserving of a thorough read and comment, otherwise how can we grow as poets/ writers.
I know I'm a different poet now than I was 6 years ago because of the effort and time given to my work and the time and effort I gave to others. That was one of the main reasons I was away for so long. I wasn't in the frame of mind that made me capable of giving crits nor being able to interect fully.
I will on my part try to offewr more than I have been offering. :)
Thanks James for posting this.
Dani
I think you approach a very iimportant issue.
I began interacting in poetry sites 6 years ago and the thing made one site so unique was the open, accepted and appreciated efforts of the mods and members at critiquing work or just going through a poem emphasizing what touched them in it etc...
I'm afraid I'm guilty of not offering much on the critiquing front and you are so right to turn the attention to that slight. Any work is deserving of a thorough read and comment, otherwise how can we grow as poets/ writers.
I know I'm a different poet now than I was 6 years ago because of the effort and time given to my work and the time and effort I gave to others. That was one of the main reasons I was away for so long. I wasn't in the frame of mind that made me capable of giving crits nor being able to interect fully.
I will on my part try to offewr more than I have been offering. :)
Thanks James for posting this.
Dani
Thanks very much, Dani - and, as I mentioned in another tile, great to see you back.
Thanks Nina for your further thoughts.
J.
Thanks Nina for your further thoughts.
J.
I started writing poetry a little over a year ago and it was heartfelt but somewhat random in production. It is entirely due to exchanging crits with other beginners and more experienced poets that I feel I have improved a bit in my technique.
At the start I needed a crash course in critting, as I feared I would be landed with that job in our local young writers' competition (as has now happened - but, mercifully, a year later). However, I have found it invaluable in my own writing, too - as well as sometimes feeling the delight that I have helped someone else a little.
Critting is quite a scary thing to give and receive but both directions can help one's writing enormously. IMO giving careful crits is inbvaluable in helping to analyse one's own work and avoid obvious pitfalls. If one always starts a crit with the positives in a work - not gushing, OTT praise but reasoned compliments - then one can gently suggest possible glitches or ask Qs about confusing bits.
There are times when an "in depth" crit is inappropriate; some works are already polished, some are obviously an emotional release; some I just don't "get" because I know I am on a different wavelength to the poet.
And I would definitely agree with the point that if someone takes the time to carefully crit a poem or story (and it does take considerable time) it is only polite to respond fully.
Fran
At the start I needed a crash course in critting, as I feared I would be landed with that job in our local young writers' competition (as has now happened - but, mercifully, a year later). However, I have found it invaluable in my own writing, too - as well as sometimes feeling the delight that I have helped someone else a little.
Critting is quite a scary thing to give and receive but both directions can help one's writing enormously. IMO giving careful crits is inbvaluable in helping to analyse one's own work and avoid obvious pitfalls. If one always starts a crit with the positives in a work - not gushing, OTT praise but reasoned compliments - then one can gently suggest possible glitches or ask Qs about confusing bits.
There are times when an "in depth" crit is inappropriate; some works are already polished, some are obviously an emotional release; some I just don't "get" because I know I am on a different wavelength to the poet.
And I would definitely agree with the point that if someone takes the time to carefully crit a poem or story (and it does take considerable time) it is only polite to respond fully.
Fran
Hi Fran,
Thank you for your response; most interesting - and some new points raised.
Cheers, J.
Thank you for your response; most interesting - and some new points raised.
Cheers, J.
I have been away so did not see this post when it was first posted.
Personally, in some ways as one of the few newbies here, I think this post is somewhat directed toward me.
And my crit style IS different than a lot of the members here.
I guess I critique the way I would like to be critiqued and if that doesn't fit, well I guess you all will stop responding to my posts and I will go away.
I tend to want to give the writer my overall impression first, then point out places where I might have stumbled or where I thought it might have been flat. I don't tend to want to supply words only because as a creative person, I like to find my own and expect others feel the same way. I have found that line by line critiquing takes a LOT of work (your point here I guess) and is often taken the wrong way anyway. I have begun to feel that I may provide a better service to simply point out where it works and where it doesn't - for me (and of course correct punctuation, spelling and grammar if that is an issue). I would hope that the author, if they needed help with choosing a word, would then ask for help in finding one. At that point I would feel comfortable helping supply them.
True, I do not want to hear, good job, if you didn't feel that way. And I would never respond to someone else's work that way unless I really had no nits about it. That said, there is always something about someone else's poem *I* would change but I don't feel I should, just to make it mine. Everyone is trying to develop a style (or should be) that is unique to them. And because of that, too, one needs to read a bit of their work before being able to really critique the piece in reference to a style you have come to know from them.
We are not all going to write the same way, thank God.
At any rate, I think every one of us takes each and every critique to heart, even if we don't respond line by line to a line by line critique.
This IS a great website BECAUSE people take the time to read and offer suggestions. I am not at all saying that it should change, just explaining my style of critiquing (and responses) and the whys of it.
I hope to remain a part of it.
Cyn
Personally, in some ways as one of the few newbies here, I think this post is somewhat directed toward me.
And my crit style IS different than a lot of the members here.
I guess I critique the way I would like to be critiqued and if that doesn't fit, well I guess you all will stop responding to my posts and I will go away.
I tend to want to give the writer my overall impression first, then point out places where I might have stumbled or where I thought it might have been flat. I don't tend to want to supply words only because as a creative person, I like to find my own and expect others feel the same way. I have found that line by line critiquing takes a LOT of work (your point here I guess) and is often taken the wrong way anyway. I have begun to feel that I may provide a better service to simply point out where it works and where it doesn't - for me (and of course correct punctuation, spelling and grammar if that is an issue). I would hope that the author, if they needed help with choosing a word, would then ask for help in finding one. At that point I would feel comfortable helping supply them.
True, I do not want to hear, good job, if you didn't feel that way. And I would never respond to someone else's work that way unless I really had no nits about it. That said, there is always something about someone else's poem *I* would change but I don't feel I should, just to make it mine. Everyone is trying to develop a style (or should be) that is unique to them. And because of that, too, one needs to read a bit of their work before being able to really critique the piece in reference to a style you have come to know from them.
We are not all going to write the same way, thank God.
At any rate, I think every one of us takes each and every critique to heart, even if we don't respond line by line to a line by line critique.
This IS a great website BECAUSE people take the time to read and offer suggestions. I am not at all saying that it should change, just explaining my style of critiquing (and responses) and the whys of it.
I hope to remain a part of it.
Cyn
Hi Cyn,
Thank you for your comments.
You'd be right in your implied assumption that I don't agree with you.
However, you'd be wrong in your assumption that this is specifically aimed at you - if such were the case, I would have sent a private PM to you or just not bothered. Actually, it is not aimed at anyone - it is aimed at a problem. That problem - as I see it - is increasing and, if it were just one person involved, it would not be a problem.
I think it is becoming a problem precisely because several people are, as I see it, not giving a fair response to critters either in reply or return crits.
Now, having said that, I'm very grateful for your input - it is good to have t'other side of the debate aired. Thank you very much.
James.
Thank you for your comments.
You'd be right in your implied assumption that I don't agree with you.
However, you'd be wrong in your assumption that this is specifically aimed at you - if such were the case, I would have sent a private PM to you or just not bothered. Actually, it is not aimed at anyone - it is aimed at a problem. That problem - as I see it - is increasing and, if it were just one person involved, it would not be a problem.
I think it is becoming a problem precisely because several people are, as I see it, not giving a fair response to critters either in reply or return crits.
Now, having said that, I'm very grateful for your input - it is good to have t'other side of the debate aired. Thank you very much.
James.
You don't agree with what? The way I critique, or .... the way I respond to critiques? Not sure which you mean so I guess *I* don't know what I was implying. 
I respond to all critiques (unless I was away or just missed it somehow since I don't track any subjects) to acknowledge the person who critiqued it. I do not respond line by line to the actual critique. I will explain why I said something a certain way or why I would choose to keep it as is. Otherwise I thank the responder and then mull it over for use, or not, later.
I certainly do not see that as a non-answer to a critique. And in the end, is not that the point of ones critique? To offer help not expect a commentary or a critique of ones critique? I, and I would assume others, often cannot take the time at that instant to work out the revision or what exactly they will use from the suggestions given. That does not mean they are not appreciated.
I thought initially (but now reread and see you are talking here only about responses to critiques and not the critiques itself) that you were lammenting the loss of indepth critiques, so I was offering my take on why some prefer not to give them, but agreeing that attaboys are not at all acceptable.
Are we agreeing to disagree?
Anyway, no I did not think it was directed SOLELY at me, but certainly partially toward me, given it addressed newbies and you already wondered to me what I was looking for in a critique.
That is OK, I am not trying to change anything or any one. I have not been here long and it takes a while to "fit in". I may not, we'll see. And that is OK too. I had hoped I was making a contribution and I enjoy the site. Time will tell - it always does
Cyn
I respond to all critiques (unless I was away or just missed it somehow since I don't track any subjects) to acknowledge the person who critiqued it. I do not respond line by line to the actual critique. I will explain why I said something a certain way or why I would choose to keep it as is. Otherwise I thank the responder and then mull it over for use, or not, later.
I certainly do not see that as a non-answer to a critique. And in the end, is not that the point of ones critique? To offer help not expect a commentary or a critique of ones critique? I, and I would assume others, often cannot take the time at that instant to work out the revision or what exactly they will use from the suggestions given. That does not mean they are not appreciated.
I thought initially (but now reread and see you are talking here only about responses to critiques and not the critiques itself) that you were lammenting the loss of indepth critiques, so I was offering my take on why some prefer not to give them, but agreeing that attaboys are not at all acceptable.
Are we agreeing to disagree?
Anyway, no I did not think it was directed SOLELY at me, but certainly partially toward me, given it addressed newbies and you already wondered to me what I was looking for in a critique.
That is OK, I am not trying to change anything or any one. I have not been here long and it takes a while to "fit in". I may not, we'll see. And that is OK too. I had hoped I was making a contribution and I enjoy the site. Time will tell - it always does
Cyn
Hi Cyn,
Thanks for returning.
Until you post I have been trying not to engage in discussion - just thanking people. However, as you address me directly I feel it only proper to reply :)
>C> You don't agree with what? The way I critique, or .... the way I respond to critiques? Not sure which you mean so I guess *I* don't know what I was implying.
Sorry - I should have been more specific. I will not disagree with the way in which you do things as such - again, this isn't about you, nor me, nor anyone.
What I don't agree with is the approach to crit and crit-response which you advanced in your previous response.
>C> I respond to all critiques (unless I was away or just missed it somehow since I don't track any subjects)
LOL we all have that problem, sometimes - errors like that can easily affect anyone. However, you might find tracking very beneficial - would enable you to keep abreast of who was replying to your posts. If you would like any help using the facility please just ask.
>C> to acknowledge the person who critiqued it. I do not respond line by line to the actual critique. I will explain why I said something a certain way or why I would choose to keep it as is. Otherwise I thank the responder and then mull it over for use, or not, later.
But then the critter has no idea what the person being critted thinks of their suggestions. It seems (though I see you say it is not) like pouring ideas into a void. How will the critter know how their points are received and what is thought about them?
>C> I certainly do not see that as a non-answer to a critique. And in the end, is not that the point of ones critique? To offer help not expect a commentary or a critique of ones critique?
No, I don't think so. I think critting is very much a two-way process. The critter offers the best advice they can and the person being critted the replies to those points. That way both learn - else the critter is doing all the work. I believe the person being critted has responsibilities in return for the crit. I think crits need paying for - both in terms of a good reply and in terms of critting others' work well.
>C> I, and I would assume others, often cannot take the time at that instant to work out the revision or what exactly they will use from the suggestions given.
No but crits can be responded to later in more depth - and a revision (or none) posted.
>C> That does not mean they are not appreciated.
But how do critters know that?
>C> I thought initially (but now reread and see you are talking here only about responses to critiques and not the critiques itself)
No, both. I was lamenting the lack in some tiles of what I consider a "proper" response to crits and also what I perceive as a reduction in the quality of some crits, too.
>C> that you were lamenting the loss of in-depth critiques, so I was offering my take on why some prefer not to give them, but agreeing that attaboys are not at all acceptable.
I think it is incumbent on us all to offer decent crits on a site like this. Now, I don't always mean like I sometimes do - I can be very thorough - but certainly not one or two line comments which help no one. Sorry I don't know what "attaboys" are?
>C> Anyway, no I did not think it was directed SOLELY at me, but certainly partially toward me, given it addressed newbies and you already wondered to me what I was looking for in a critique.
I told you, it was directed at no one. Again, I repeat, if I have a problem with a specific person I'll PM them. Now, why do you, incorrectly, say "it addressed newbies" then self-target it? it did no such thing. It mentioned no group of people nor any individual whatsoever.
I'm sorry but I won't engage in any discussions of any individual on here. I did not establish this tile for that - nor would I have. The problem is the culture which I fear might emerge. I think we would be all ill-served by personalising this don't you?
Once more, this tile is directed towards what I believe is a problem of poor responses to crits and inadequate critting.
>C> That is OK, I am not trying to change anything or any one. I have not been here long and it takes a while to "fit in". I may not, we'll see. And that is OK too.
We are delighted to see newcomers (the staff have been thinking of ways to bring them in). Fitting-in is, of course, a two-way process - newcomers change whatever is established and the establishment changes newcomers.
>C> I had hoped I was making a contribution and I enjoy the site. Time will tell - it always does
I am delighted you are enjoying the site. Your two posts in this debate proves that you are making contributions. However, other than pointing that out, I won't discuss individuals here.
Thanks Cyn!
James.
Thanks for returning.
Until you post I have been trying not to engage in discussion - just thanking people. However, as you address me directly I feel it only proper to reply :)
>C> You don't agree with what? The way I critique, or .... the way I respond to critiques? Not sure which you mean so I guess *I* don't know what I was implying.
Sorry - I should have been more specific. I will not disagree with the way in which you do things as such - again, this isn't about you, nor me, nor anyone.
What I don't agree with is the approach to crit and crit-response which you advanced in your previous response.
>C> I respond to all critiques (unless I was away or just missed it somehow since I don't track any subjects)
LOL we all have that problem, sometimes - errors like that can easily affect anyone. However, you might find tracking very beneficial - would enable you to keep abreast of who was replying to your posts. If you would like any help using the facility please just ask.
>C> to acknowledge the person who critiqued it. I do not respond line by line to the actual critique. I will explain why I said something a certain way or why I would choose to keep it as is. Otherwise I thank the responder and then mull it over for use, or not, later.
But then the critter has no idea what the person being critted thinks of their suggestions. It seems (though I see you say it is not) like pouring ideas into a void. How will the critter know how their points are received and what is thought about them?
>C> I certainly do not see that as a non-answer to a critique. And in the end, is not that the point of ones critique? To offer help not expect a commentary or a critique of ones critique?
No, I don't think so. I think critting is very much a two-way process. The critter offers the best advice they can and the person being critted the replies to those points. That way both learn - else the critter is doing all the work. I believe the person being critted has responsibilities in return for the crit. I think crits need paying for - both in terms of a good reply and in terms of critting others' work well.
>C> I, and I would assume others, often cannot take the time at that instant to work out the revision or what exactly they will use from the suggestions given.
No but crits can be responded to later in more depth - and a revision (or none) posted.
>C> That does not mean they are not appreciated.
But how do critters know that?
>C> I thought initially (but now reread and see you are talking here only about responses to critiques and not the critiques itself)
No, both. I was lamenting the lack in some tiles of what I consider a "proper" response to crits and also what I perceive as a reduction in the quality of some crits, too.
>C> that you were lamenting the loss of in-depth critiques, so I was offering my take on why some prefer not to give them, but agreeing that attaboys are not at all acceptable.
I think it is incumbent on us all to offer decent crits on a site like this. Now, I don't always mean like I sometimes do - I can be very thorough - but certainly not one or two line comments which help no one. Sorry I don't know what "attaboys" are?
>C> Anyway, no I did not think it was directed SOLELY at me, but certainly partially toward me, given it addressed newbies and you already wondered to me what I was looking for in a critique.
I told you, it was directed at no one. Again, I repeat, if I have a problem with a specific person I'll PM them. Now, why do you, incorrectly, say "it addressed newbies" then self-target it? it did no such thing. It mentioned no group of people nor any individual whatsoever.
I'm sorry but I won't engage in any discussions of any individual on here. I did not establish this tile for that - nor would I have. The problem is the culture which I fear might emerge. I think we would be all ill-served by personalising this don't you?
Once more, this tile is directed towards what I believe is a problem of poor responses to crits and inadequate critting.
>C> That is OK, I am not trying to change anything or any one. I have not been here long and it takes a while to "fit in". I may not, we'll see. And that is OK too.
We are delighted to see newcomers (the staff have been thinking of ways to bring them in). Fitting-in is, of course, a two-way process - newcomers change whatever is established and the establishment changes newcomers.
>C> I had hoped I was making a contribution and I enjoy the site. Time will tell - it always does
I am delighted you are enjoying the site. Your two posts in this debate proves that you are making contributions. However, other than pointing that out, I won't discuss individuals here.
Thanks Cyn!
James.
Hi Cyn
James raised the problem of both critting and responses to crits and directed it to all members. He didn't actually mention newbies at all, so please, it is directed at all members who post, responds and crits. If you read Siren's post above, she has generously admitted to not offering much on the critting front and I think we are all guilty of this from time to time and need to make a more conscious effort. I know if I'm pressed for time my crits and replies are much shorter
I do not respond line by line to the actual critique. I will explain why I said something a certain way or why I would choose to keep it as is. Otherwise I thank the responder and then mull it over for use, or not, later.
I certainly do not see that as a non-answer to a critique. And in the end, is not that the point of ones critique? To offer help not expect a commentary or a critique of ones critique? I, and I would assume others, often cannot take the time at that instant to work out the revision or what exactly they will use from the suggestions given. That does not mean they are not appreciated
The problem isn't that the crits aren't appreciated. I have no doubt that they are(though how does one know?). For me critting is a two way interaction - sharing ideas, thoughts and opinions, a pleasurable learning experience and the building of a relationship between writer and critter.
When I offer my overall impressions it ishelpful to the reader as it tells them whether their message is conveyed or not. If there is no feedback to the crit, how does the critter know if he/she has understood the message or not or learn more of how the writer thinks and writes, their likes and dislikes. In a way it is like watching a film and switching off on the cliffhanger, not knowing how the story ends.
I have not been here long and it takes a while to "fit in". I may not, we'll see. And that is OK too. I had hoped I was making a contribution and I enjoy the site. Time will tell - it always does
I hope you do feel comfortable and welcomed here and you do most certainly make a contribution. I personally much appreciate the greater activity in Serens.
From my own personal experience, I found the best way to feel part of the site and "fit in" was by interacting with others and getting to know them better by critting, responding and engaging in discussion on points raised in poems both when I agree and disagree.
Nina
.
James raised the problem of both critting and responses to crits and directed it to all members. He didn't actually mention newbies at all, so please, it is directed at all members who post, responds and crits. If you read Siren's post above, she has generously admitted to not offering much on the critting front and I think we are all guilty of this from time to time and need to make a more conscious effort. I know if I'm pressed for time my crits and replies are much shorter
I do not respond line by line to the actual critique. I will explain why I said something a certain way or why I would choose to keep it as is. Otherwise I thank the responder and then mull it over for use, or not, later.
I certainly do not see that as a non-answer to a critique. And in the end, is not that the point of ones critique? To offer help not expect a commentary or a critique of ones critique? I, and I would assume others, often cannot take the time at that instant to work out the revision or what exactly they will use from the suggestions given. That does not mean they are not appreciated
The problem isn't that the crits aren't appreciated. I have no doubt that they are(though how does one know?). For me critting is a two way interaction - sharing ideas, thoughts and opinions, a pleasurable learning experience and the building of a relationship between writer and critter.
When I offer my overall impressions it ishelpful to the reader as it tells them whether their message is conveyed or not. If there is no feedback to the crit, how does the critter know if he/she has understood the message or not or learn more of how the writer thinks and writes, their likes and dislikes. In a way it is like watching a film and switching off on the cliffhanger, not knowing how the story ends.
I have not been here long and it takes a while to "fit in". I may not, we'll see. And that is OK too. I had hoped I was making a contribution and I enjoy the site. Time will tell - it always does
I hope you do feel comfortable and welcomed here and you do most certainly make a contribution. I personally much appreciate the greater activity in Serens.
From my own personal experience, I found the best way to feel part of the site and "fit in" was by interacting with others and getting to know them better by critting, responding and engaging in discussion on points raised in poems both when I agree and disagree.
Nina
.
OK I guess I jumped to a conclusion. Since I am new here and things have been critted and responded to differently until recently, and I have posted a lot recently, it was a reasonable assumption to jump to. However, I will apologize for jumping to it. Sorry
Attaboys! are like Bravos! They don't add much.
When someone understands the message of a poem, the author should always acknowledge that. And I always do if I know someone has critiqued a poem of mine and "got it". I can't track these messages because I run a dog rescue that ends up sending me 100s of e-mails a day so I go online and look for responses to my posts, but it is inevitable that I will miss some. I apologize for that as well.
I still prefer critiquing without making real word or phrase changes unless I feel the line is really struggling, and I would even then prefer to point out exactly where it doesn't work for me and have the author come up with something that pleases him instead of putting it into my words. It is not work shirking IMO. I don't know. Rewriting someone's poem (which it tends to feel like to me) is like my coming up to a painitng of someone else's and and taking a brush to it. Same paint (words) but different strokes, eh? I DO think writers want and need to know where things work and where they don't, like you would critique an art work. Suggestions are one thing (try a little more blue, needs more light, too shadowy) but repainting it is another.
I don't know if any of this makes sense to any one but me, and maybe it is just because of the arts background I come from that makes me feel this way...wanting the work to be and feel original to the author. And this is what has kept me (after a few attempts at it) from critiquing in a more specific manner. I DID try it and concluded it was just something I am not comfortable with. Again, I apologize for my shortcomings with regard to that.
Anyway, I will try to fit in a bit better and make sure I find and comment on everyone's comments. I do agree that they need to be acknowledged. I apprecaite your patience with me, James.
Cyn
Attaboys! are like Bravos! They don't add much.
When someone understands the message of a poem, the author should always acknowledge that. And I always do if I know someone has critiqued a poem of mine and "got it". I can't track these messages because I run a dog rescue that ends up sending me 100s of e-mails a day so I go online and look for responses to my posts, but it is inevitable that I will miss some. I apologize for that as well.
I still prefer critiquing without making real word or phrase changes unless I feel the line is really struggling, and I would even then prefer to point out exactly where it doesn't work for me and have the author come up with something that pleases him instead of putting it into my words. It is not work shirking IMO. I don't know. Rewriting someone's poem (which it tends to feel like to me) is like my coming up to a painitng of someone else's and and taking a brush to it. Same paint (words) but different strokes, eh? I DO think writers want and need to know where things work and where they don't, like you would critique an art work. Suggestions are one thing (try a little more blue, needs more light, too shadowy) but repainting it is another.
I don't know if any of this makes sense to any one but me, and maybe it is just because of the arts background I come from that makes me feel this way...wanting the work to be and feel original to the author. And this is what has kept me (after a few attempts at it) from critiquing in a more specific manner. I DID try it and concluded it was just something I am not comfortable with. Again, I apologize for my shortcomings with regard to that.
Anyway, I will try to fit in a bit better and make sure I find and comment on everyone's comments. I do agree that they need to be acknowledged. I apprecaite your patience with me, James.
Cyn
I dislike where this discussion is leading because it looks like I don't fit.
When Fran mentioned that it is polite to give FULL critique I took a deep breath. For heaven's sake that is a terrible imposition for a writer to expect.
I agree with Cyn's views on serious critique of other's. I learned a long time ago that to bleed all over someone elses's design is primarily overlaying ones own views, which is essentially a rewrite. If an editor doesn't like your work, the writer is lucky if any helpful response returns. You tend to either win or lose a contest without knowing why.
Yes, exchange at MM is nice, but extensive discussion is counterproductive.
I know going in that most at MM do not especially grasp my style, but to make a big deal out of it is absurd. To explain features that don't register is killing a dead horse.
I look at this site as experimental ground. I take a shot and see what happens. I certainly do not expect fine tuning into fame and fortune.
None of this is meant to be personal, the names mentioned are only for clarity in reference.
Smiles to all
Don
When Fran mentioned that it is polite to give FULL critique I took a deep breath. For heaven's sake that is a terrible imposition for a writer to expect.
I agree with Cyn's views on serious critique of other's. I learned a long time ago that to bleed all over someone elses's design is primarily overlaying ones own views, which is essentially a rewrite. If an editor doesn't like your work, the writer is lucky if any helpful response returns. You tend to either win or lose a contest without knowing why.
Yes, exchange at MM is nice, but extensive discussion is counterproductive.
I know going in that most at MM do not especially grasp my style, but to make a big deal out of it is absurd. To explain features that don't register is killing a dead horse.
I look at this site as experimental ground. I take a shot and see what happens. I certainly do not expect fine tuning into fame and fortune.
None of this is meant to be personal, the names mentioned are only for clarity in reference.
Smiles to all
Don
well shoot, I didn't mean to make this into a controversy.
My opinion is we should comment where and whenever we are able and in a manner in which we are comfortable, that is all.
I will apologize again, for inadvertently making this a bigger deal than James intended (but I am glad at least someone agrees with me just a little :cool: )
Cyn
My opinion is we should comment where and whenever we are able and in a manner in which we are comfortable, that is all.
I will apologize again, for inadvertently making this a bigger deal than James intended (but I am glad at least someone agrees with me just a little :cool: )
Cyn
Hi ALL...Hi James...
Ah a good topic for discussion, and Don, you shouldn't feel that way at all. I have many poems in my files that have found their place on 'my' satisfied lists that are "Thank you" to you. I also, as I read James' initial post, didn't take it that he was seeking everyone or anyone to make changes in their own personal critique style. I took it as a hope that we all might discuss the subject and some will walk away realizing that they might make too many suggestions/comments (like I do) while others might keep in mind that something more might be appropriate to the poems potential. I guess I took this thread as a place to write down what are our 'habits' (If I may use that word) in critiquing another's work and what is our habits in responding. Perhaps, each of us can take a look at certain ways we do things and maybe become aware of some things that could be tweaked to improve on our ability to help each other improve our poetry.
So, I would like to share how I think I critique and the why and what's and as I do this, perhaps I will stumble on some things that I can do to meet other's needs on a more beneficial level rather than continuously doing something that isn't productive to others.
First, I read most threads posted in Herme's. Although I have a long history with Free Verse, I have been more inclined to critique R&M, because I enjoy the structure it offers and often the challenge of form. I like to learn from others, as well as passing on what I've learned to others. While I read most postings, I don't always post to every poem posted.
This is an area where I need to reevaluate my critiquing habits. I tend to post to poems that show great effort in writing and/or I find to hold potential. Poems that excite me to see originality and skill has been taken in posting it. Often the more excited or worthy I think a poem is, the more I tend to comment in length. (MY APOLOGIES! :sings: This is why they use to call me loquacious) I can get very suggestive.
When critiquing. I try to offer, in my opinion, because I am certainly no expert... What works... what falls short to my ear...what can I offer that might open the poets mind to alternatives.
When I come across a poem that seems, in my opinion, to have reached a strong potential and I have nothing to recommend for improvement, I like to give feedback to indicate what is it about this poem I find enjoyable and why I think it succeeds.
My biggest faults that I would like to change about my participation as a critiquer is, often I don't get the chance to respond to every poem I've critiqued and has been replied to. Especially when I felt the poem has met its potential, I tend to go onward to the next poem and leave the poem to the poets discretion. I should make my efforts to return and respond as a matter of courtesy.
When responding to critiques offered, I like when someone offers me alternatives. I may not use it, sometimes I may, however it helps to open my thoughts to avenues I hadn't seen before. Sometimes it was 'just the right change I had been looking for and my minds eye just didn't see it.
I also think getting to know the person you are critiquing and their style often directs my comments as well. For example:
I will use Lori as the example, because after years and years of receiving and giving the exemplary help in the past, I often feel quite comfortable leaving her a full, in depth critique which includes praise, suggestions and alternatives to words or phrases. I feel comfortable because I know she is familiar with my style. She knows that when I leave a suggestion that she is aware it is for consideration only and she feels free to say, that won't work. We work together. My only part in her poem would be to offer avenues for her consideration and she knows she can use or discard any or all of it. She knows that criticism isn't putting down her poem, but rather the main focus in her work is to bring the poem to a polished, publishable quality (even if her intent is not to submit it) but rather to make the most of the poem at hand until she is finally satisfied with the poem. There are others I have this comfort zone with, while there are other posters that I have learned are not open to real in depth criticism but they are really looking for slight changes and their goal is not to get the poem to such a quality and there isn't anything wrong with this. When I have learned this about a member, I mend my comments accordingly. I will then leave minor comments of where the poem weakens and where the poem shows great potential. I never care to take it personal, because even with my own poetry, I never take it personal. Each poem I post is its own entity. Some are good. Some not so good and the only reflection I take on all of them is my goal to make them better.
I don't like one liner critiques that just say. This is good. Keep writing. That makes me feel as if the person hadn't read the poem, nor did they take the time to care why that thought it was good, but rather needed to obtain their required posting expectations in order to post another of their own poems. I think that is quite unacceptable. I don't mind when someone truly thinks there is nothing to be improved on a poem that they leave a short comment advising that they think the poem, in their opinion is good as is and what they like about it. Even if it is regarding a comment about their interpretation of the poems meaning, or the skill in form or even how they can relate to the subject on a personal level. This shows they took the time to read it and have nothing to add to improve it but wanted to give positive feedback. There isn't anything wrong with that sort of non-critical feedback. It still carries with it a benefit for the poet.
(As I said, I am loquacious....I've talked way too much)
On MM, I have gotten some absolutely great feedback over the years and I am grateful for all of you...and the help I get time and time again. We are all here to learn and to grow....
Best wishes, Liz
Ah a good topic for discussion, and Don, you shouldn't feel that way at all. I have many poems in my files that have found their place on 'my' satisfied lists that are "Thank you" to you. I also, as I read James' initial post, didn't take it that he was seeking everyone or anyone to make changes in their own personal critique style. I took it as a hope that we all might discuss the subject and some will walk away realizing that they might make too many suggestions/comments (like I do) while others might keep in mind that something more might be appropriate to the poems potential. I guess I took this thread as a place to write down what are our 'habits' (If I may use that word) in critiquing another's work and what is our habits in responding. Perhaps, each of us can take a look at certain ways we do things and maybe become aware of some things that could be tweaked to improve on our ability to help each other improve our poetry.
So, I would like to share how I think I critique and the why and what's and as I do this, perhaps I will stumble on some things that I can do to meet other's needs on a more beneficial level rather than continuously doing something that isn't productive to others.
First, I read most threads posted in Herme's. Although I have a long history with Free Verse, I have been more inclined to critique R&M, because I enjoy the structure it offers and often the challenge of form. I like to learn from others, as well as passing on what I've learned to others. While I read most postings, I don't always post to every poem posted.
This is an area where I need to reevaluate my critiquing habits. I tend to post to poems that show great effort in writing and/or I find to hold potential. Poems that excite me to see originality and skill has been taken in posting it. Often the more excited or worthy I think a poem is, the more I tend to comment in length. (MY APOLOGIES! :sings: This is why they use to call me loquacious) I can get very suggestive.
When critiquing. I try to offer, in my opinion, because I am certainly no expert... What works... what falls short to my ear...what can I offer that might open the poets mind to alternatives.
When I come across a poem that seems, in my opinion, to have reached a strong potential and I have nothing to recommend for improvement, I like to give feedback to indicate what is it about this poem I find enjoyable and why I think it succeeds.
My biggest faults that I would like to change about my participation as a critiquer is, often I don't get the chance to respond to every poem I've critiqued and has been replied to. Especially when I felt the poem has met its potential, I tend to go onward to the next poem and leave the poem to the poets discretion. I should make my efforts to return and respond as a matter of courtesy.
When responding to critiques offered, I like when someone offers me alternatives. I may not use it, sometimes I may, however it helps to open my thoughts to avenues I hadn't seen before. Sometimes it was 'just the right change I had been looking for and my minds eye just didn't see it.
I also think getting to know the person you are critiquing and their style often directs my comments as well. For example:
I will use Lori as the example, because after years and years of receiving and giving the exemplary help in the past, I often feel quite comfortable leaving her a full, in depth critique which includes praise, suggestions and alternatives to words or phrases. I feel comfortable because I know she is familiar with my style. She knows that when I leave a suggestion that she is aware it is for consideration only and she feels free to say, that won't work. We work together. My only part in her poem would be to offer avenues for her consideration and she knows she can use or discard any or all of it. She knows that criticism isn't putting down her poem, but rather the main focus in her work is to bring the poem to a polished, publishable quality (even if her intent is not to submit it) but rather to make the most of the poem at hand until she is finally satisfied with the poem. There are others I have this comfort zone with, while there are other posters that I have learned are not open to real in depth criticism but they are really looking for slight changes and their goal is not to get the poem to such a quality and there isn't anything wrong with this. When I have learned this about a member, I mend my comments accordingly. I will then leave minor comments of where the poem weakens and where the poem shows great potential. I never care to take it personal, because even with my own poetry, I never take it personal. Each poem I post is its own entity. Some are good. Some not so good and the only reflection I take on all of them is my goal to make them better.
I don't like one liner critiques that just say. This is good. Keep writing. That makes me feel as if the person hadn't read the poem, nor did they take the time to care why that thought it was good, but rather needed to obtain their required posting expectations in order to post another of their own poems. I think that is quite unacceptable. I don't mind when someone truly thinks there is nothing to be improved on a poem that they leave a short comment advising that they think the poem, in their opinion is good as is and what they like about it. Even if it is regarding a comment about their interpretation of the poems meaning, or the skill in form or even how they can relate to the subject on a personal level. This shows they took the time to read it and have nothing to add to improve it but wanted to give positive feedback. There isn't anything wrong with that sort of non-critical feedback. It still carries with it a benefit for the poet.
(As I said, I am loquacious....I've talked way too much)
On MM, I have gotten some absolutely great feedback over the years and I am grateful for all of you...and the help I get time and time again. We are all here to learn and to grow....
Best wishes, Liz
QUOTE (Cyn @ Jan. 25 2006, 20:33)
well shoot, I didn't mean to make this into a controversy.
My opinion is we should comment where and whenever we are able and in a manner in which we are comfortable, that is all.
I will apologize again, for inadvertently making this a bigger deal than James intended (but I am glad at least someone agrees with me just a little
)
Cyn
My opinion is we should comment where and whenever we are able and in a manner in which we are comfortable, that is all.
I will apologize again, for inadvertently making this a bigger deal than James intended (but I am glad at least someone agrees with me just a little
)Cyn
Hi Cyn,
No need to apologize. The misunderstanding brought about reasonable issues for disccusion. Although my response to the thread is a lengthy one, I just wanted to share my style too, so others can understand when I might leave too much or too little. So maybe, as James has posted this thread to benefit us all by talking about our own thoughts on the issue.
Perhaps there is someone out there in the forums that I might be posting a critique to their poems and it might seem too in depth and perhaps they think it is a personal dislike of the poem, but from reading my style and reasoning, might know now it isn't and think....Hmmm, oh, that is her way of critiquing. And maybe, they might now know, if I spend some significant time on their poem, it probably means I took a liken to it and wanted to put the effort into it.
After reading your own styles and reasoning, I can say even though they don't reflect my own, I understand them, they make sense and I respect them.
Best Wishes to you all, Liz
Thanks very much James for posting this thread! 
As with all our discussions, the message is always left to interpretation. I find this thread very intriguing because this is where I have learned some very valuable information.
I admit to being one of those 'critters' who often suggests 'word changes'. I think it stems from how I was taught to critique at the first forum board I ever joined - the old PK? Old habits die hard. As a newbie to the whole poetry scene back then, I learned by example. A good portion of crits included these ' word changes' so I assumed that is what people were looking for in a crit. There weren't too many replies to the negative regarding my 'style' there so I continued to do it.
A valuable lesson for me is that one may simply NOT want to change words.
SO I ask myself: If someone were to read one of my threads, what would I hope to receive by way of comments? The answer is: the message conveyed (do they get it). The rest of it is icing.
Other questions I hope will be discussed in the process are (in no particular order) :
[*]What do you HEAR in my work? Is there a melody?
[*]What MESSAGE do you get from it? IS it the SAME one that I hoped to convey? If not, what message do you see/read?
[*]Are my word choices appropriate for the TONE inferred?
[*]Have I used too many words, adjectives, verbs, etc and is there a better way to state my message without changing the message itself (your work is your own)?
[*]Have I utlized meter, rhythm, rhymes and other poetic devices to make the message more potent/powerful?
[*]Have I checked/edited the simple things, like spelling, punctuation before posting for crit?
[*](Form poetry) Have I expressed my message in the chosen form as the form itself requires (params followed) ?
[*]Have I answered any questions raised with regard to my work?
[*]Have I responded to those who have so willingly offered their time, expertise and knowledge to help me further refine my work and self?
I believe our membership thrives on our ability and willingness to analyze and collectively discuss in great detail (if so sought) (their) works posted for crit for the betterment of the message within. This in turn not only strengthens our own confidences, it also heightens our knowledge and appreciation of the arts. For some, it may lead to greater things too...
I'll be back again soon for more...
Enjoyed this honest feedback!
~Cleo
As with all our discussions, the message is always left to interpretation. I find this thread very intriguing because this is where I have learned some very valuable information.
I admit to being one of those 'critters' who often suggests 'word changes'.
I think it stems from how I was taught to critique at the first forum board I ever joined - the old PK? Old habits die hard. As a newbie to the whole poetry scene back then, I learned by example. A good portion of crits included these ' word changes' so I assumed that is what people were looking for in a crit. There weren't too many replies to the negative regarding my 'style' there so I continued to do it. A valuable lesson for me is that one may simply NOT want to change words.
SO I ask myself: If someone were to read one of my threads, what would I hope to receive by way of comments? The answer is: the message conveyed (do they get it). The rest of it is icing.
Other questions I hope will be discussed in the process are (in no particular order) :[*]What do you HEAR in my work? Is there a melody?
[*]What MESSAGE do you get from it? IS it the SAME one that I hoped to convey? If not, what message do you see/read?
[*]Are my word choices appropriate for the TONE inferred?
[*]Have I used too many words, adjectives, verbs, etc and is there a better way to state my message without changing the message itself (your work is your own)?
[*]Have I utlized meter, rhythm, rhymes and other poetic devices to make the message more potent/powerful?
[*]Have I checked/edited the simple things, like spelling, punctuation before posting for crit?
[*](Form poetry) Have I expressed my message in the chosen form as the form itself requires (params followed) ?
[*]Have I answered any questions raised with regard to my work?
[*]Have I responded to those who have so willingly offered their time, expertise and knowledge to help me further refine my work and self?
I believe our membership thrives on our ability and willingness to analyze and collectively discuss in great detail (if so sought) (their) works posted for crit for the betterment of the message within. This in turn not only strengthens our own confidences, it also heightens our knowledge and appreciation of the arts. For some, it may lead to greater things too...
I'll be back again soon for more...
Enjoyed this honest feedback!
~Cleo QUOTE (Cleo_Serapis @ Jan. 25 2006, 21:51)
Cleo wrote:
If someone were to read one of my threads, what would I hope to receive by way of comments? The answer is: the message conveyed (do they get it). The rest of it is icing.
Other questions I hope will be discussed in the process are (in no particular order) :[*]What do you HEAR in my work? Is there a melody?
[*]What MESSAGE do you get from it? IS it the SAME one that I hoped to convey? If not, what message do you see/read?
[*]Are my word choices appropriate for the TONE inferred?
[*]Have I used too many words, adjectives, verbs, etc and is there a better way to state my message without changing the message itself (your work is your own)?
[*]Have I utlized meter, rhythm, rhymes and other poetic devices to make the message more potent/powerful?
[*]Have I checked/edited the simple things, like spelling, punctuation before posting for crit?
[*](Form poetry) Have I expressed my message in the chosen form as the form itself requires (params followed) ?
[*]Have I answered any questions raised with regard to my work?
Lori
this is EXACTLY right in my opinion with regard to critiquing. Very well said
Cyn
And yes thanks after all James for starting this "tile"
Good morning everyone!
I have been following this debate with interest.
I too, have noticed a trend towards bland replies to postings. A trend, which I regret since, IMHO true critique is what makes MM unique among poetry sites.
By “Attaboys” James, I believe Cyn means gushing mindless, back patting, which while it will stroke the author’s ego, will never improve their work.
Without the considered opinions and encouragement from our friends on this site how is it possible to know if we have written a good piece or not?
If someone replies to a poem of mine in the vein of “Beautiful, I really loved this.” I immediately doubt either their sincerity or interest in the piece.
We need more than this; I don’t believe anyone can write a perfect piece first time out. I have poems, written 2 years ago that I still go back and alter when I find a better word or phrase, and if there are people on MM, who, having looked on a poem of mine through fresh eyes, can find that word or phrase for me I would be delighted to incorporate it in the poem, or at least direct my thoughts to the new slant of thinking provided by the critiquer, and feel it is my duty to return the compliment by acknowledging if not all, then most of the suggestions.(Sometimes I won't aknowledge just punctuation but will change it if I think they have a valid point.)
Not to acknowledge these helpful crits would, in my opinion be very rude. We all want to be writing new works, but if we take time out to try to help each other, that fact should certainly be acknowledged, commented upon and replied to.
I have been following this debate with interest.
I too, have noticed a trend towards bland replies to postings. A trend, which I regret since, IMHO true critique is what makes MM unique among poetry sites.
By “Attaboys” James, I believe Cyn means gushing mindless, back patting, which while it will stroke the author’s ego, will never improve their work.
Without the considered opinions and encouragement from our friends on this site how is it possible to know if we have written a good piece or not?
If someone replies to a poem of mine in the vein of “Beautiful, I really loved this.” I immediately doubt either their sincerity or interest in the piece.
We need more than this; I don’t believe anyone can write a perfect piece first time out. I have poems, written 2 years ago that I still go back and alter when I find a better word or phrase, and if there are people on MM, who, having looked on a poem of mine through fresh eyes, can find that word or phrase for me I would be delighted to incorporate it in the poem, or at least direct my thoughts to the new slant of thinking provided by the critiquer, and feel it is my duty to return the compliment by acknowledging if not all, then most of the suggestions.(Sometimes I won't aknowledge just punctuation but will change it if I think they have a valid point.)
Not to acknowledge these helpful crits would, in my opinion be very rude. We all want to be writing new works, but if we take time out to try to help each other, that fact should certainly be acknowledged, commented upon and replied to.
Gosh, everyone this tile has set alight... can a tile do that?
Thanks you all so much for your new postings - Nina, Cyn, Don, Liz, Lori and Grace - hope I haven't missed anyone, plus previous posters.
I'll read through them later and try to respond to any points directly to me.
A great debate and let's hope we all benefit.
Again, thank you all - new postings always welcome and I'll be back later to reply.
Thank you!
James.
Thanks you all so much for your new postings - Nina, Cyn, Don, Liz, Lori and Grace - hope I haven't missed anyone, plus previous posters.
I'll read through them later and try to respond to any points directly to me.
A great debate and let's hope we all benefit.
Again, thank you all - new postings always welcome and I'll be back later to reply.
Thank you!
James.
Lori, what an excellent crit discussion list; many thanks.
Dear Don, I really did not mean to upset you - your words are so valuable here.
I fear you may have misread me: you say ~
When Fran mentioned that it is polite to give FULL critique I took a deep breath. For heaven's sake that is a terrible imposition for a writer to expect.
But I never stated that one has to give a "full critique"; I said ~
IMO giving careful crits is invaluable in helping to analyse one's own work and avoid obvious pitfalls .... And I would definitely agree with the point that if someone takes the time to carefully crit a poem or story (and it does take considerable time) it is only polite to respond fully.
I just think that if I have spent an hour carefully interpretting a complex poem or story and explaining how it moved me and any bumps in the message, emotion or rhythm, it is nice to have a response to those points; have I "got" the idea the writer intended? Else I might be barking up the wrong tree and I might as well have gone and done something more useful instead.
Fran
Dear Don, I really did not mean to upset you - your words are so valuable here.
I fear you may have misread me: you say ~
When Fran mentioned that it is polite to give FULL critique I took a deep breath. For heaven's sake that is a terrible imposition for a writer to expect.
But I never stated that one has to give a "full critique"; I said ~
IMO giving careful crits is invaluable in helping to analyse one's own work and avoid obvious pitfalls .... And I would definitely agree with the point that if someone takes the time to carefully crit a poem or story (and it does take considerable time) it is only polite to respond fully.
I just think that if I have spent an hour carefully interpretting a complex poem or story and explaining how it moved me and any bumps in the message, emotion or rhythm, it is nice to have a response to those points; have I "got" the idea the writer intended? Else I might be barking up the wrong tree and I might as well have gone and done something more useful instead.
Fran
Hi again all,
I apologize for dropping a rodent into our mutual stew. It has properly been brought to my attention that I misunderstood the offering of FULL crit, which is polite for the writer to the critic and not vice versa. In my world polite is not an option, and "full" is as thorough as possible. Upon receiving unsolicited long crit my polite response may be considerably less thorough. I know submission by default implies asking for critique. There are degrees of crit and degrees of default.
Occasionally I'm blown over by a feather when someone gives me the high compliment, "I don't understand it, but liked its poetry," which only applys to a portion not the whole.
Is this compliment an attaboy? I think not.
Each of us can only do what we consider proper and let the winds blow free.
Happy writing trails
Don
I apologize for dropping a rodent into our mutual stew. It has properly been brought to my attention that I misunderstood the offering of FULL crit, which is polite for the writer to the critic and not vice versa. In my world polite is not an option, and "full" is as thorough as possible. Upon receiving unsolicited long crit my polite response may be considerably less thorough. I know submission by default implies asking for critique. There are degrees of crit and degrees of default.
Occasionally I'm blown over by a feather when someone gives me the high compliment, "I don't understand it, but liked its poetry," which only applys to a portion not the whole.
Is this compliment an attaboy? I think not.
Each of us can only do what we consider proper and let the winds blow free.
Happy writing trails
Don
I have been browsing around the site, and at some point found a suggestiong that someone go and critique the work of others.. and that they didn't need to suggest big changes, even a 'word change' or something like that could be considered 'critique'.
I'd like to toss out a different idea..
Sometimes, there is no change that can be specifically suggested to improve a poem.. so does that mean the poem can't be critiqued?
I don't think so..
For me, the most helpful 'critique' comes in the form of people sharing what they think is strong in my work... or what they don't understand.. or what lines don't seem to 'fit'.. and what lines DO.
Our work is to convey ideas, images, emotions, etc, to our readers. Sometimes it is as important to a poet to be told what works BEST as it is to be told what may need to be changed.
Sometimes, simple feedback on how readers are interpreting the peice are most helpful, as well (This makes me think of... blablabla....)
That's just my two cent's worth.. I don't think 'critique' always needs to e about 'suggestions for changes'.
Gena
Artemis
I'd like to toss out a different idea..
Sometimes, there is no change that can be specifically suggested to improve a poem.. so does that mean the poem can't be critiqued?
I don't think so..
For me, the most helpful 'critique' comes in the form of people sharing what they think is strong in my work... or what they don't understand.. or what lines don't seem to 'fit'.. and what lines DO.
Our work is to convey ideas, images, emotions, etc, to our readers. Sometimes it is as important to a poet to be told what works BEST as it is to be told what may need to be changed.
Sometimes, simple feedback on how readers are interpreting the peice are most helpful, as well (This makes me think of... blablabla....)
That's just my two cent's worth.. I don't think 'critique' always needs to e about 'suggestions for changes'.
Gena
Artemis
I absolutely agree! :StarWars1:
Sometimes, a work is so magical, or so focused in the message, that one shouldn't change it! These are also the works we want to ensure 'feedback' on as well. What did we like about it that sticks in our memory so much? Did it trigger a strong emotional response? Was it The VOICE, the title perhaps?
The ryhthm or visual styling of the piece all add to the overall impression.
We all seek the same thing - feedback - so thanks for offering this one Gena!
Cheers!
Lori :pharoah:
Sometimes, a work is so magical, or so focused in the message, that one shouldn't change it! These are also the works we want to ensure 'feedback' on as well. What did we like about it that sticks in our memory so much? Did it trigger a strong emotional response? Was it The VOICE, the title perhaps?
The ryhthm or visual styling of the piece all add to the overall impression.
We all seek the same thing - feedback - so thanks for offering this one Gena!
Cheers!
Lori :pharoah:
I agree too, Gena!
And oh, how good to see you!!!
It just happens that I wrote a rictameter today that fits tongue-in-cheek here, methinks. Occasionally we come across a person unfamiliar with the give and take of critiquing and all the benefits there are in allowing our attempts at poetic communication to be flayed for analysis . . . a person who offers . . . and then withdraws the request:
Here's hopin' we all avoid crude comebacks!
Lightly, Daniel
And oh, how good to see you!!!
It just happens that I wrote a rictameter today that fits tongue-in-cheek here, methinks. Occasionally we come across a person unfamiliar with the give and take of critiquing and all the benefits there are in allowing our attempts at poetic communication to be flayed for analysis . . . a person who offers . . . and then withdraws the request:
on Critiquing
Come back
to simply say
that you just don’t concur
or that you’d rather let it stay
as a fleeting moment’s inspiration
now memorialized in words
so sacred that your gut
bellows some crude
comeback.
© Daniel J Ricketts 15 Sept 2003
Come back
to simply say
that you just don’t concur
or that you’d rather let it stay
as a fleeting moment’s inspiration
now memorialized in words
so sacred that your gut
bellows some crude
comeback.
© Daniel J Ricketts 15 Sept 2003
Here's hopin' we all avoid crude comebacks!
Lightly, Daniel
Hi Gena,
What a sheer delight to see and read you again!
I absolutely agree with your thinking on critiquing. I think most of us will indeed agree.
Daniel, really cute and timely rictameter, which I've really come to enjoy! Thanks for introducing them to us.
Blessings,
Dolly
What a sheer delight to see and read you again!
I absolutely agree with your thinking on critiquing. I think most of us will indeed agree.
Daniel, really cute and timely rictameter, which I've really come to enjoy! Thanks for introducing them to us.
Blessings,
Dolly
I just merged an OLD post re: Responding to criticisms of work, some views from Karnak Crossing into this thread.
FYI...
:D
FYI...
:D
Ok, Ta Lori - will read asap.
J.
J.
To critique: to interpret, evalute and review.
A critique should focus on the strengths and weaknesses of a work.
Here at MM, we encourage the use of critiques for the purpose of helping a writer to improve his/her work.
Critiques in general are peer's attempts to improve the quality of the message within the work through the use of suggestions and revisions.
1. Only critique someone who wants to be critiqued. Can you identify those subtle signals to the contrary?
2. Know the style. If you do not understand the parameters of formal rhymed and metered poems for example, do not offer an in-depth critique without first learning of the specific requirements.
3. Know when to ask for clarification. If you do not understand the poem or story's intention, don't be afraid to ask for clarity. Chances are, others may not understand the message too.
4. Do not say one thing but mean another, i.e. praise something in the piece that you feel is weak. It may very well be best to say nothing.
5. Criticize the piece, not the writer. Never make something personal.
6. Help the writer, do not harm them.
7. Learn what to accept, what to ignore and what will go on the back burner for reconsideration later.
Here are some good articles for critiquing a poem: http://ticket2write.tripod.com/id24.html
http://www.patchword.com/original/articles/critique.html
Lastly for now, do the I's have it?
Insight
Interpretation
Influence, Impact
Ideas
Illustration
Inspiration
Information
Ignite, Inflame or Incite
Imagery
Imagination, Innovation
Impersonation
Inflection
Intellect
Introspect
Incomplete
Impression
~Cleo :chef:
A critique should focus on the strengths and weaknesses of a work.
Here at MM, we encourage the use of critiques for the purpose of helping a writer to improve his/her work.
Critiques in general are peer's attempts to improve the quality of the message within the work through the use of suggestions and revisions.
1. Only critique someone who wants to be critiqued. Can you identify those subtle signals to the contrary?
2. Know the style. If you do not understand the parameters of formal rhymed and metered poems for example, do not offer an in-depth critique without first learning of the specific requirements.
3. Know when to ask for clarification. If you do not understand the poem or story's intention, don't be afraid to ask for clarity. Chances are, others may not understand the message too.
4. Do not say one thing but mean another, i.e. praise something in the piece that you feel is weak. It may very well be best to say nothing.
5. Criticize the piece, not the writer. Never make something personal.
6. Help the writer, do not harm them.
7. Learn what to accept, what to ignore and what will go on the back burner for reconsideration later.
Here are some good articles for critiquing a poem: http://ticket2write.tripod.com/id24.html
http://www.patchword.com/original/articles/critique.html
Lastly for now, do the I's have it?
Insight
Interpretation
Influence, Impact
Ideas
Illustration
Inspiration
Information
Ignite, Inflame or Incite
Imagery
Imagination, Innovation
Impersonation
Inflection
Intellect
Introspect
Incomplete
Impression
~Cleo :chef:
Hi Lori,
Thanks.
All valid points. I think, for me, this point sums it up:
6. Help the writer, do not harm them.
Cheers, J.
Thanks.
All valid points. I think, for me, this point sums it up:
6. Help the writer, do not harm them.
Cheers, J.
Whoa! I'm sorry I missed this when it was first posted. It's a very interesting and educational thread. I've always worried about what I was offering in the way of crits (not knowing what I was doing). I've tried to pay attention to how others have done it and patterned myself after that as well as keeping in mind what I hope to receive in a crit. I would like to address the issue of offering word changes. I have never been offended by this. As a matter of fact, I welcome it. I don't always use the exact suggestion but it gives me cause to think, to let my mind wander in a different direction and I often come up with something of my own. When I offer a word change I hope to do the same thing for someone else. I don't mean that they have to use my suggestion but if I can spur a thought then I'm happy. I certainly don't want someone thinking I'm trying to make their poem my own, I wouldn't do that. It's offered as a way of sparking ideas and if they disagree, that's fine too. It must remain 'their' work and I'm sure a lot of people disagree with my opinion. Therein lies my point ... it's just my 'opinion'. I like to know what people think of what I write, how it makes them feel, how they have interpreted it. Also punctuation (which I'm no good at), grammar, ANY suggestions they may have. Usually by the time I post a poem I have read it so many times that I can't see it clearly. Seeing it through someone else's eyes gives me a fresh look and can even sometimes clarify what I was trying to say to begin with. I'm not sure if I'm offering what everyone is looking for either. I know that some of my crits are shorter than others depending on a variety of things. I also know that I don't always go into my interpretation and how the poem made me feel. I can see there are areas that I need to work on and I will do that.
As for responses to crits, there I have sadly lacked. I can understand what you are getting at and will work on this area as well. I know that the main reason I post is to get help with my work, so that I may grow as a writer and the responses to my work is where that comes from so I need to do the same for others.
I am glad you posted this James. I have learned a lot and intend to come back for a reread so that I can get better ideas as to what people want in a crit.
Cathy
As for responses to crits, there I have sadly lacked. I can understand what you are getting at and will work on this area as well. I know that the main reason I post is to get help with my work, so that I may grow as a writer and the responses to my work is where that comes from so I need to do the same for others.
I am glad you posted this James. I have learned a lot and intend to come back for a reread so that I can get better ideas as to what people want in a crit.
Cathy
Hi Cathy and Cyn and Don and all other posters.
Thanks very much - I am reading through these.
Some excellent points made by one and all.
Cheers for now, J.
Thanks very much - I am reading through these.
Some excellent points made by one and all.
Cheers for now, J.
I was thinking of taking this 'I's have it list and perhaps post the descriptions of them (from various resources). If this idea 
is to the positive, I could make a chart or graph too.
To start:
Do the 'I's' have it?
Interpretation:
[*]An explanation or conceptualization by a critic of a work of literature, painting, music, or other art form; an exegesis.
Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
[*]The act or process of explaining the meaning of something.
Source: Merriam-Webster's Medical Dictionary, © 2002 Merriam-Webster, Inc.
[*]A mental representation of the meaning or significance of something 2: the act of interpreting something as expressed in an artistic performance; "her rendition of Milton's verse was extraordinarily moving" 3: an explanation that results from interpreting something; "the report included his interpretation of the forensic evidence" 4: an explanation of something that is not immediately obvious; "the edict was subject to many interpretations"; "he annoyed us with his interpreting of parables"; "often imitations are extended to provide a more accurate rendition of the child's intended meaning"
Source: WordNet ® 2.0, © 2003 Princeton University
[*]An interpretation is a presentation or portrayal of information altered in order to conform to a specific set of symbols. This may be a spoken, written, pictorial, mathematical, sculptural, cinematic, geometric or any other form of language.
Source: Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia © 2001-2006 Wikipedia contributors (Disclaimer)
is to the positive, I could make a chart or graph too.To start:
Do the 'I's' have it?
Interpretation:
[*]An explanation or conceptualization by a critic of a work of literature, painting, music, or other art form; an exegesis.
Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
[*]The act or process of explaining the meaning of something.
Source: Merriam-Webster's Medical Dictionary, © 2002 Merriam-Webster, Inc.
[*]A mental representation of the meaning or significance of something 2: the act of interpreting something as expressed in an artistic performance; "her rendition of Milton's verse was extraordinarily moving" 3: an explanation that results from interpreting something; "the report included his interpretation of the forensic evidence" 4: an explanation of something that is not immediately obvious; "the edict was subject to many interpretations"; "he annoyed us with his interpreting of parables"; "often imitations are extended to provide a more accurate rendition of the child's intended meaning"
Source: WordNet ® 2.0, © 2003 Princeton University
[*]An interpretation is a presentation or portrayal of information altered in order to conform to a specific set of symbols. This may be a spoken, written, pictorial, mathematical, sculptural, cinematic, geometric or any other form of language.
Source: Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia © 2001-2006 Wikipedia contributors (Disclaimer)
Hi Lori
Not quite sure I grasp what you are suggesting here (sorry); can you explain, please, for a critter wot's a bit slow?
Fran
Not quite sure I grasp what you are suggesting here (sorry); can you explain, please, for a critter wot's a bit slow?
Fran
Good morning Lori/Cleo_Serapis,
I almost added a ditto to Fran's, huh, to what you wrote about the I list. Taking some time, again, to reread most of the thread I saw the list of key words beginning with I for a sixteen-step improvement program.
As represented by your excellent example, the bottom line is that this would be a lot of work to generate and I personally probably would not glean sufficient value.
As per TV series, Monk, theme song, "I could be wrong now."
The initial guidelines for commenting are very well written.
Don :pharoah2
I almost added a ditto to Fran's, huh, to what you wrote about the I list. Taking some time, again, to reread most of the thread I saw the list of key words beginning with I for a sixteen-step improvement program.
As represented by your excellent example, the bottom line is that this would be a lot of work to generate and I personally probably would not glean sufficient value.
As per TV series, Monk, theme song, "I could be wrong now."
The initial guidelines for commenting are very well written.
Don :pharoah2
Hi Don and Fran.
I was only posting to see if anyone nibbled on my making a new 'educational thread' about 'ways to critique'.
I would include this "I's have it" as a reference tool.
What do you think?
~Cleo :p
I was only posting to see if anyone nibbled on my making a new 'educational thread' about 'ways to critique'.
I would include this "I's have it" as a reference tool.
What do you think?
~Cleo :p
Another good morning to you Cleo_Serapis,
Oh my, you seem to be a glutton for activity.
Heaven knows I'm a poor critic, but my mind is already made up—so to speak.
In a sense I dislike more added to how to write and be critical, but the books and advice still flood over the transom. The subject is probably very good to expand upon for those interested, especially since several have admitted deficiency in good criticism.
Surely you will avail yourself of links to the vast blurbs and blogs available.
To clear mud out of the above puddle, yes, do it. You know many of us will glean and learn, despite my mind set.
Don
Oh my, you seem to be a glutton for activity.
Heaven knows I'm a poor critic, but my mind is already made up—so to speak.
In a sense I dislike more added to how to write and be critical, but the books and advice still flood over the transom. The subject is probably very good to expand upon for those interested, especially since several have admitted deficiency in good criticism.
Surely you will avail yourself of links to the vast blurbs and blogs available.
To clear mud out of the above puddle, yes, do it. You know many of us will glean and learn, despite my mind set.
Don
Dear Lori
Sounds like an awful lot of work
I like the list you posted earlier in this thread and people can look things up if they want to get into lots of depth. I think perhaps, like writing itself, the best way to learn critting is to practice?
Hugs
Fran
Sounds like an awful lot of work
I like the list you posted earlier in this thread and people can look things up if they want to get into lots of depth. I think perhaps, like writing itself, the best way to learn critting is to practice?
Hugs
Fran
Hi Lori, all,
I don't think there is any harm in offering educational advice on critting, if people wish to avail themselves of it. For some, such guidelines will be welcomed. Therefore, to make them available would be a service.
I do, however, think it should be made crystal clear that they are purely there to assist, should people wish to avail themselves of the opportunity.
From a personal perspective, I would never use them - far too prescriptive and bound with guidelines / rules. I wouldn't actually want to be critted in that way, either. I want a critter to crit with soul, not scientific precision.
Thanks for the work.
J.
I don't think there is any harm in offering educational advice on critting, if people wish to avail themselves of it. For some, such guidelines will be welcomed. Therefore, to make them available would be a service.
I do, however, think it should be made crystal clear that they are purely there to assist, should people wish to avail themselves of the opportunity.
From a personal perspective, I would never use them - far too prescriptive and bound with guidelines / rules. I wouldn't actually want to be critted in that way, either. I want a critter to crit with soul, not scientific precision.
Thanks for the work.
J.
I Have been thinking (sorry about that)...
Yes we can - and should - afford people the opportunity to improve their crit techniques. However, I'm not sure the problems are technique per se. Looking back to my original posting my two points were simple. Viz:
1. Many members are offering insufficient feedback to critters
2. Many members are critting insufficiently.
Since that posting, I have sadly seen the trend develop even further with very limp replies often being given to good crits and, on t'other side, extremely poor crits which actually do almost nothing to suggest potential improvements to the poems being critted. In fact they are simply appreciative comments, rather than proper crits.
Now of course, if people scan the crits they will find that sometimes I don't offer ideas for improvement - sometimes I don't feel I can. I am not saying that every single crit has to be in-depth. That would be inappropriate and impossible for most people. I certainly don't do it. But in general, I do think that, when we crit, unless we think the work perfect (and very few are) we should be looking to see if we can suggest improvements. By all means say we like a work (if we do) - that is encouraging. But serious writers need more than that. Writers cannot develop without critics suggesting alternatives, better solutions and so on. None may be taken up at the time but it really is all grist to the writer's mill.
So I think the issue is less about the technicalities and more about an attitude of seriously wanting to help others to improve. That simply cannot be done if every crit we make in poor. It is also about encouraging people to crit us by offering proper replies which reflect the input which the critter offers. That is to say that points suggested ought to be responded to.
If we don't do this then I fear we'll all suffer because the quality of crits will be too poor to enable us to develop.
Best wishes, all. J.
Yes we can - and should - afford people the opportunity to improve their crit techniques. However, I'm not sure the problems are technique per se. Looking back to my original posting my two points were simple. Viz:
1. Many members are offering insufficient feedback to critters
2. Many members are critting insufficiently.
Since that posting, I have sadly seen the trend develop even further with very limp replies often being given to good crits and, on t'other side, extremely poor crits which actually do almost nothing to suggest potential improvements to the poems being critted. In fact they are simply appreciative comments, rather than proper crits.
Now of course, if people scan the crits they will find that sometimes I don't offer ideas for improvement - sometimes I don't feel I can. I am not saying that every single crit has to be in-depth. That would be inappropriate and impossible for most people. I certainly don't do it. But in general, I do think that, when we crit, unless we think the work perfect (and very few are) we should be looking to see if we can suggest improvements. By all means say we like a work (if we do) - that is encouraging. But serious writers need more than that. Writers cannot develop without critics suggesting alternatives, better solutions and so on. None may be taken up at the time but it really is all grist to the writer's mill.
So I think the issue is less about the technicalities and more about an attitude of seriously wanting to help others to improve. That simply cannot be done if every crit we make in poor. It is also about encouraging people to crit us by offering proper replies which reflect the input which the critter offers. That is to say that points suggested ought to be responded to.
If we don't do this then I fear we'll all suffer because the quality of crits will be too poor to enable us to develop.
Best wishes, all. J.
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