Hi Fran,
You can say as much as you wish, providing you don't really crit the piece - and you didn't except for trying to clarify this psychu debate. Regardless of all this, I think Ron's sonnet is great, too.
James.
Full Version: Haiku
Hi Ron!
I think you meant 'transits' (travels)?
Very pretty!
I am going to merge this in with our haiku thread here in Karnak...
Cheers!
Cleo :cheer:
I think you meant 'transits' (travels)?
Very pretty!
I am going to merge this in with our haiku thread here in Karnak...
Cheers!
Cleo :cheer:
I moved it here Ron.....
:)
:)
Hello Ron, 
moon and sun align
a shadow transits landscapes
how bright this candle
A quite superb haiku Ron, perfect in that it includes an allusion to a season (the eclipse) and links it to another picture (the candle).
This lovely haiku also incorporates all the essentials of
The Technique of Narrowing Focus
This is something Buson used a lot because he, being an artist, was a very visual person. Basically what you do is to start with a wide-angle lens on the world in the first line, switch to a normal lens for the second line and zoom in for a close-up in the end.
Wonderful piece Ron, I love it. :sings:
moon and sun align
a shadow transits landscapes
how bright this candle
A quite superb haiku Ron, perfect in that it includes an allusion to a season (the eclipse) and links it to another picture (the candle).
This lovely haiku also incorporates all the essentials of
The Technique of Narrowing Focus
This is something Buson used a lot because he, being an artist, was a very visual person. Basically what you do is to start with a wide-angle lens on the world in the first line, switch to a normal lens for the second line and zoom in for a close-up in the end.
Wonderful piece Ron, I love it. :sings:
winter moonset;
on the edge of the forest
a ghost-owl glides
on the edge of the forest
a ghost-owl glides
ah... my muse has returned!
Beautiful picture, Grace!
beachscape sunrise;
at the tip of a jetty
early tanners hug
Beautiful picture, Grace!
beachscape sunrise;
at the tip of a jetty
early tanners hug
Hello Daniel,
ah... my muse has returned! Hurray! :dance: :cheer: :sings:
beachscape sunrise;
at the tip of a jetty
early tanners hug
and such a lovely picture Daniel, Wish I was there!
ah... my muse has returned! Hurray! :dance: :cheer: :sings:
beachscape sunrise;
at the tip of a jetty
early tanners hug
and such a lovely picture Daniel, Wish I was there!
Sagittarius
fires arrows across the sky;
meteor shower
fires arrows across the sky;
meteor shower
Please forgive my parody of such a lovely piece, Grace... 
but you know that sometimes I cannot resist. :D
mountain waterfall
splashes across porcine flesh;
meatier shower
Lightly toweling, Daniel
but you know that sometimes I cannot resist. :D
mountain waterfall
splashes across porcine flesh;
meatier shower
Lightly toweling, Daniel
This is my first ever haiku:
playmate of the month
poses for her centrefold;
do not staple here
Have I captured the spirit of the haiku?
Perry
playmate of the month
poses for her centrefold;
do not staple here
Have I captured the spirit of the haiku?
Perry
A more serious attempt:
leaf falling from tree
spirals silently to earth;
bloated corpse drifts by
Perry
leaf falling from tree
spirals silently to earth;
bloated corpse drifts by
Perry
Hi Daniel,
mountain waterfall
splashes across porcine flesh;
meatier shower
Very clever Daniel, but I just wonder could porcine flesh be referred to as meaty? Maybe (having bathed in a waterfall in Jamaica recently myself )you could have a person in the waterfall. How about 'bathers' flesh? Whaddya think? :detective:
Good morning Perry,
QUOTE
This is my first ever haiku:
playmate of the month
poses for her centrefold;
do not staple here
Have I captured the spirit of the haiku?
Perry
playmate of the month
poses for her centrefold;
do not staple here
Have I captured the spirit of the haiku?
Perry
Oh, I like this, very amusing. I would only point out Perry, the same mistake that I always make. Haiku is about nature. Anything else (including pieces about people should be called Senryu).
But Hey, I always get them mixed up so - welcome to the club.
To the seasoned performers:
Grace - very good as ever.
Daniel - ditto - plus I liked your porker of a haiku.
Grace - apropos your crit on Daniel's poem...
Shortly after I'd been born (prematurely) the Dr, apparently, told my Mother to "Get some meat on those little legs." I've never looked back. So I'll stick with the pigs' version, thanks very much!
James.
Grace - very good as ever.
Daniel - ditto - plus I liked your porker of a haiku.
Grace - apropos your crit on Daniel's poem...
Shortly after I'd been born (prematurely) the Dr, apparently, told my Mother to "Get some meat on those little legs." I've never looked back. So I'll stick with the pigs' version, thanks very much!
James.
Perry,
Welcome to the changing world of haikus.
"playmate of the month
poses for her centrefold;
do not staple here."
Great stuff - an old joke / saying but well re-invented for your first offering. Amused me.
"leaf falling from tree
spirals silently to earth;
bloated corpse drifts by"
This has all the optimism and humour and sheer joy de vie that many of my poems have - not catching is it? I preferred your previous haiku - cheered me up. And I do object to your implying 'twas not serious! However, I can fault neither (this is a more traditional version, of course - but neither are "wrong"). I'll leave the Seny-thing / haiku debate to others, by the way. I thought these both excellent but took fun from the former.
Cheers James.
Welcome to the changing world of haikus.
"playmate of the month
poses for her centrefold;
do not staple here."
Great stuff - an old joke / saying but well re-invented for your first offering. Amused me.
"leaf falling from tree
spirals silently to earth;
bloated corpse drifts by"
This has all the optimism and humour and sheer joy de vie that many of my poems have - not catching is it? I preferred your previous haiku - cheered me up. And I do object to your implying 'twas not serious! However, I can fault neither (this is a more traditional version, of course - but neither are "wrong"). I'll leave the Seny-thing / haiku debate to others, by the way. I thought these both excellent but took fun from the former.
Cheers James.
Hi Again Perry,
QUOTE
A more serious attempt:
leaf falling from tree
spirals silently to earth;
bloated corpse drifts by
Perry
leaf falling from tree
spirals silently to earth;
bloated corpse drifts by
Perry
What a startling comparison with your first piece. Very strong images here Perry.
Just one little point. Haiku, or in this case again Senryu, consists of two separate thoughts which link the whole together. So while your first two lines mention earth, the third intimates that the tree is by a river but this is not obvious until you read the last line.
you might try..
leaf falls from the tree
spirals into the river
bloated corpse drifts by
(All in the same tense) Just a suggestion Chuck or choose.
Grace - I'll not get into the seny / haiku thing - of no interest to me. However, modern haikus don't have to be about nature. Even modern Japanese writers are rejecting that constraint. Sci-fi haikus are quite avant garde now. Don't get me wrong, nature haikus are great and maybe exploit the form best (for me). However, I'm pleased this form hasn't been fossilised.
James.
James.
Good morning Daniel and James,
Stupid head on this morning. My apologies Daniel,
I read this as piscean instead of porcine since I assumed it was a fish in the water. Please ignore my comment.
I somehow find it hard to visualise a pig in a waterwall.
Hello James, 
I agree modern haikus don't have to be about nature, you know how I feel about restrictions James.
The point I was making was that Senryu IS Haiku but with a human link.
I agree modern haikus don't have to be about nature, you know how I feel about restrictions James.
The point I was making was that Senryu IS Haiku but with a human link.
Hi Grace, Yes I do know how you feel (which is why I was surprised).
Sorry for mis-understanding you.
I know I'm not into forms but I do believe in the right name for the right form. However, I find this seny / haiku thing to be too much angles (or is it angels? - never can remember nor see the difference) dancing on pinheads. I've mentally merged them; leave it to others to differentiate.
James.
Sorry for mis-understanding you.
I know I'm not into forms but I do believe in the right name for the right form. However, I find this seny / haiku thing to be too much angles (or is it angels? - never can remember nor see the difference) dancing on pinheads. I've mentally merged them; leave it to others to differentiate.
James.
Thanks everyone for the comments so far.
Grace, regarding the thematic link:
"leaf falling from tree
spirals silently to earth;
bloated corpse drifts by"
What joins the two thoughts is death. In the first, it is death by natural decay; in the second, it is natural disaster (flood). Is this consistent with haiku? I'm no haijin but I thought the important element was to have two thoughts that had something in common to provide an insight into something or other.
Having said that, I like your version because it has more subtlety than mine.
Perry
Grace, regarding the thematic link:
"leaf falling from tree
spirals silently to earth;
bloated corpse drifts by"
What joins the two thoughts is death. In the first, it is death by natural decay; in the second, it is natural disaster (flood). Is this consistent with haiku? I'm no haijin but I thought the important element was to have two thoughts that had something in common to provide an insight into something or other.
Having said that, I like your version because it has more subtlety than mine.
Perry
Hello again Perry,
QUOTE
What joins the two thoughts is death. In the first, it is death by natural decay; in the second, it is natural disaster (flood). Is this consistent with haiku? I'm no haijin but I thought the important element was to have two thoughts that had something in common to provide an insight into something or other.
Yes, I can see the 'death' connection Perry. How to explain?
Your piece says this to me as the reader.
leaf falling from tree
spirals silently to earth; bloated corpse drifts by
Although they both represent death, they are disjointed in that the mind's eye cannot form a continuous picture.
Whereas if the tree overhang the river your piece would have far greater impact in leading the eye straight onto the unexpected vision of a bloated corpse.
From the gentle introduction and image of a falling leaf the shock impact of the vision of the corpse would be tremendous.
I took the corpse to be the dead leaf. (And then the whole - tree and leaf to be metaphors for human life / death)
Oh well.
James.
Oh well.
James.
Hello James,
I took the corpse to be the dead leaf. (And then the whole - tree and leaf to be metaphors for human life / death)
Oh well.
James.
You had me worried there for a minute James,
I thought I had misinterpreted Perry's piece, so I went back to check and this is what Perry says...
I took the corpse to be the dead leaf. (And then the whole - tree and leaf to be metaphors for human life / death)
Oh well.
James.
You had me worried there for a minute James,
I thought I had misinterpreted Perry's piece, so I went back to check and this is what Perry says...QUOTE
What joins the two thoughts is death. In the first, it is death by natural decay; in the second, it is natural disaster (flood).
Ah! It doesn't matter what the writer thinks, Grace.
Once the piece is in the public domain, readers may interpret it as they wish. I was just meaning that I think the thoughts are linked as you wished. Because, for me, the corpse is a leaf. (And the whole a metaphor). I take a different view of his poem's meaning from Perry, that's all - and I think my view accords with your requirements - doesn't it? (That was my "oh well").
James.
Once the piece is in the public domain, readers may interpret it as they wish. I was just meaning that I think the thoughts are linked as you wished. Because, for me, the corpse is a leaf. (And the whole a metaphor). I take a different view of his poem's meaning from Perry, that's all - and I think my view accords with your requirements - doesn't it? (That was my "oh well").
James.
Hi Perry,
playmate of the month
poses for her centrefold;
do not staple here
I saw this at breakfast and I am still chuckling. Ouch.
A haiku is supposed to describe natural images and contain a seasonal reference (I may have mis-phrased that, but it is along those lines). You are on safer ground with senryu, since this touches on humanity.
However, I suppose you could argue that humanity is part of nature, "wot she is doin' is on'y nat'r'l", and she probably contains a fair ammount of added silicon (which is of course a very common earth-element). I don't think I'll start on any seasonal allusions, though.
Very funny, and well done.
Fran
playmate of the month
poses for her centrefold;
do not staple here
I saw this at breakfast and I am still chuckling. Ouch.
A haiku is supposed to describe natural images and contain a seasonal reference (I may have mis-phrased that, but it is along those lines). You are on safer ground with senryu, since this touches on humanity.
However, I suppose you could argue that humanity is part of nature, "wot she is doin' is on'y nat'r'l", and she probably contains a fair ammount of added silicon (which is of course a very common earth-element). I don't think I'll start on any seasonal allusions, though.
Very funny, and well done.
Fran
Hi all,
I disagree with both Grace and Fran. This "haiku is supposed to show nature" etc is old hat. I'll be back on this asap.
James.
I disagree with both Grace and Fran. This "haiku is supposed to show nature" etc is old hat. I'll be back on this asap.
James.
Suggestion for James:
Allow it to merge in your mind if you like. I've merged them myself in my faux-ku.
SEN-RY-U: The FORM of both types are the same. The name and subject matter are different.
Perry's first piece is an excellent example of SENRYU.
His second (particularly with Grace's great suggestion) makes an excellent HAIKU.
Each has two snapshots of the same occurrence from a different vantage point and emphasis.
sharin' de Light, Daniel
Allow it to merge in your mind if you like. I've merged them myself in my faux-ku.
SEN-RY-U: The FORM of both types are the same. The name and subject matter are different.
Perry's first piece is an excellent example of SENRYU.
His second (particularly with Grace's great suggestion) makes an excellent HAIKU.
Each has two snapshots of the same occurrence from a different vantage point and emphasis.
sharin' de Light, Daniel
OK, I'll start piling evidence here.
Please note: I was developing this tile before daniel and I had our discussion. None of this relates to that whatsoever. I have tried to make that clear by my language but, if I'm to state my case, there's only a certain amount I can do to make this sound impersonal. It really is, honest.
What I'm trying to show is a multiplicity of approaches to haiku. There are actually more divisions of this type of poetry than listed on MM. Each slight accent (of meaning) seems to carry a new name. Try it for yourself - write a haiku about motor racing and give it a new genre name. Easy.
What I am arguing is that, throughout the centuries - from at least the 15thC to the 21stC different people have taken the basic haiku and adopted it for their purposes. Different syllables, different subjects, humourous, non-humourous, about nature, not about nature and so on. My argument is that we should not accept anyone's frozen definition of the haiku. It is really a very flexible art form which is beautiful and adaptable to so many different subjects, meanings and approaches.
It's not even in my vested interest, really - I write very few haikus and they are generally concerned with nature anyway. But I don't see why rules should be laid down and poets told to stick to them. Moreover, it seems bizarre to start a new name for every variation. Please understand, I don't mind in the least what you call your poem - or others' poems. Doesn't matter to me. All I care about is that when I see or write something I think a haiku, people don't tell me I'm wrong without an over-riding reason. Now, the only way to determine if they are correct is by reference to other (third party) authorities. My submissioin is thus: since I have found a wide divergence of opinion - from haikus are anything to haikus are this prercise form... then there is no overall agreement as to what constitutes a haiku. So my opinion is as good as anyone else's on the matter. And yours, is as good as mine and their's.
#01:Haiku For People website
This website makes the point that there are actually quite a number of different Japanese forms which have been added to make a modern, westernised haiku (But, as I'll show later modern ain't modern any more)...
"The history of the modern haiku dates from Masaoka Shiki's reform, begun in 1892, which established haiku as a new independent poetic form. Shiki's reform did not change two traditional elements of haiku: the division of 17 syllables into three groups of 5, 7, and 5 syllables and the inclusion of a seasonal theme."
How to write Haiku
"In Japanese, the rules for how to write Haiku are clear, and will not be discussed here. In foreign languages, there exist NO consensus in how to write Haiku-poems. Anyway, let's take a look at the basic knowledge:"
What to write about?
"Haiku-poems can describe almost anything, but you seldom find themes which are too complicated for normal PEOPLE's recognition and understanding. Some of the most thrilling Haiku-poems describe daily situations in a way that gives the reader a brand new experience of a well-known situation."
#02: Before Basho...
In the 16th century, instead of renga, it was haikai - humorous poem - that became popular. Haikai (haikai-renga) is a poem made of verses of 17 and 14 syllables like renga, but it parodies renga introducing modern vulgar laughter. Haikai poets used plays on words and treated preferably things of daily life renga hadn't found interesting.
The first verse of renga and haikai is called "hokku". Haikai poets sometimes presented their hokkus as independent poems. These were the origin of haiku.
It was traditionally demanded to adopt a kigo (season word: word reffering to a season) in the first verse of renga and haikai. Therefore, they demand to introduce a kigo in a hokku (and in a haiku) too.
#03 Scj-Fi Hikus
(Yes, someone else has created yet another variant and given it their own name. Good game, good game.)
SciFaiku is a distinctive and powerful form of expression for science fiction. It packs all the human insight, technology, and vision of the future into a few poignant lines.
SciFaiku is haiku and it is not haiku. It is driven by the inspiration and many of the principles of haiku, but it takes its own direction. It deviates, expands, and frees itself of haiku.
#04: AHA Poetry . Com
Is It A Haiku?
"The points brought up in these previous messages are valid
and very interesting. I believe it shows how meaningful haiku
can be when we remove a few pickets from the *fence*. I am
bothered by the several times it is asked, "Is this a haiku?"
I think the better question is, "Do I want to accept this poem
as an example of haiku for myself?" With this way of stating
the question, perhaps one can avoid painful discourses. I am
totally for discussion, but when anyone assumes the authority
to say "what haiku is(or isn't)", I feel the discussion has
ended and turned into something quite different."
James.
Please note: I was developing this tile before daniel and I had our discussion. None of this relates to that whatsoever. I have tried to make that clear by my language but, if I'm to state my case, there's only a certain amount I can do to make this sound impersonal. It really is, honest.
What I'm trying to show is a multiplicity of approaches to haiku. There are actually more divisions of this type of poetry than listed on MM. Each slight accent (of meaning) seems to carry a new name. Try it for yourself - write a haiku about motor racing and give it a new genre name. Easy.
What I am arguing is that, throughout the centuries - from at least the 15thC to the 21stC different people have taken the basic haiku and adopted it for their purposes. Different syllables, different subjects, humourous, non-humourous, about nature, not about nature and so on. My argument is that we should not accept anyone's frozen definition of the haiku. It is really a very flexible art form which is beautiful and adaptable to so many different subjects, meanings and approaches.
It's not even in my vested interest, really - I write very few haikus and they are generally concerned with nature anyway. But I don't see why rules should be laid down and poets told to stick to them. Moreover, it seems bizarre to start a new name for every variation. Please understand, I don't mind in the least what you call your poem - or others' poems. Doesn't matter to me. All I care about is that when I see or write something I think a haiku, people don't tell me I'm wrong without an over-riding reason. Now, the only way to determine if they are correct is by reference to other (third party) authorities. My submissioin is thus: since I have found a wide divergence of opinion - from haikus are anything to haikus are this prercise form... then there is no overall agreement as to what constitutes a haiku. So my opinion is as good as anyone else's on the matter. And yours, is as good as mine and their's.
#01:Haiku For People website
This website makes the point that there are actually quite a number of different Japanese forms which have been added to make a modern, westernised haiku (But, as I'll show later modern ain't modern any more)...
"The history of the modern haiku dates from Masaoka Shiki's reform, begun in 1892, which established haiku as a new independent poetic form. Shiki's reform did not change two traditional elements of haiku: the division of 17 syllables into three groups of 5, 7, and 5 syllables and the inclusion of a seasonal theme."
How to write Haiku
"In Japanese, the rules for how to write Haiku are clear, and will not be discussed here. In foreign languages, there exist NO consensus in how to write Haiku-poems. Anyway, let's take a look at the basic knowledge:"
What to write about?
"Haiku-poems can describe almost anything, but you seldom find themes which are too complicated for normal PEOPLE's recognition and understanding. Some of the most thrilling Haiku-poems describe daily situations in a way that gives the reader a brand new experience of a well-known situation."
#02: Before Basho...
In the 16th century, instead of renga, it was haikai - humorous poem - that became popular. Haikai (haikai-renga) is a poem made of verses of 17 and 14 syllables like renga, but it parodies renga introducing modern vulgar laughter. Haikai poets used plays on words and treated preferably things of daily life renga hadn't found interesting.
The first verse of renga and haikai is called "hokku". Haikai poets sometimes presented their hokkus as independent poems. These were the origin of haiku.
It was traditionally demanded to adopt a kigo (season word: word reffering to a season) in the first verse of renga and haikai. Therefore, they demand to introduce a kigo in a hokku (and in a haiku) too.
#03 Scj-Fi Hikus
(Yes, someone else has created yet another variant and given it their own name. Good game, good game.)
SciFaiku is a distinctive and powerful form of expression for science fiction. It packs all the human insight, technology, and vision of the future into a few poignant lines.
SciFaiku is haiku and it is not haiku. It is driven by the inspiration and many of the principles of haiku, but it takes its own direction. It deviates, expands, and frees itself of haiku.
#04: AHA Poetry . Com
Is It A Haiku?
"The points brought up in these previous messages are valid
and very interesting. I believe it shows how meaningful haiku
can be when we remove a few pickets from the *fence*. I am
bothered by the several times it is asked, "Is this a haiku?"
I think the better question is, "Do I want to accept this poem
as an example of haiku for myself?" With this way of stating
the question, perhaps one can avoid painful discourses. I am
totally for discussion, but when anyone assumes the authority
to say "what haiku is(or isn't)", I feel the discussion has
ended and turned into something quite different."
James.
Hi Daniel -
>>Suggestion for James:
>>Allow it to merge in your mind if you like. I've merged them myself in my faux-ku. However, since you're allowing OTHERS (including me) to differentiate between them, please DO allow us to, will you? Thanks.
Daniel I'm not stopping you doing anything. You're welcome to use whichever rules, guidelines and suggestions you wish. How could I stop you if I tried?
Please also note that I had not addressed you at all - I didn't even realise you were around at present, I was commenting to Grace, Fran and Perry. It is great to see you join in but I’m not quite sure how you can sound so offended, given I haven’t exchanged comments with you for days at least and on this subject for much longer.
>>The FORM of both types are the same. The name and subject matter are different.
Fine. I don’t distinguish between them. And if I don’t want to I will not. You are most welcome to.
>>Perry's first piece is an excellent example of SENRYU.
Fine. I shall regard it as a Haiku. I disagree with you. Please don’t “shout” by using capitals.
>>His second (particularly with Grace's great suggestion) makes an excellent HAIKU
Ditto.
>>Each has two snapshots of the same occurrence from a different vantage point and emphasis.
You have not actually made a single statement of evidence, Daniel - just stated your view as to the classification. Without your evidence I have no way of knowing upon what you base your statements - so I can neither take issue with you, nor agree with you. If you wish to, please present your evidence and I’ll do my best, as a courtesy, to respond. However, from a personal view-point, I’m not interested in this division. “Haiku,” covers both pieces for me very well thanks. I can live with that.
Overall..
I disagree with your inferences and approach, Daniel. Art is not science; it is not precision. Classifications are useful - helpful to know what is prose; what poetry; what a sonnet; what a SQ. But to me this haiku / Sen thing is angles dancing on pinheads. You are free to explore the deep crevices betwixt these forms; I choose not to. Our approaches are not mutually exclusive. However, simply because your opinion is different from mine does not make you right and me wrong - nor vice versa. If art is about anything, it must be about interpretation of creation. Would it not be a sad thing if a multiplicity of views were not available?
See you later, James.
>>Suggestion for James:
>>Allow it to merge in your mind if you like. I've merged them myself in my faux-ku. However, since you're allowing OTHERS (including me) to differentiate between them, please DO allow us to, will you? Thanks.
Daniel I'm not stopping you doing anything. You're welcome to use whichever rules, guidelines and suggestions you wish. How could I stop you if I tried?
Please also note that I had not addressed you at all - I didn't even realise you were around at present, I was commenting to Grace, Fran and Perry. It is great to see you join in but I’m not quite sure how you can sound so offended, given I haven’t exchanged comments with you for days at least and on this subject for much longer.
>>The FORM of both types are the same. The name and subject matter are different.
Fine. I don’t distinguish between them. And if I don’t want to I will not. You are most welcome to.
>>Perry's first piece is an excellent example of SENRYU.
Fine. I shall regard it as a Haiku. I disagree with you. Please don’t “shout” by using capitals.
>>His second (particularly with Grace's great suggestion) makes an excellent HAIKU
Ditto.
>>Each has two snapshots of the same occurrence from a different vantage point and emphasis.
You have not actually made a single statement of evidence, Daniel - just stated your view as to the classification. Without your evidence I have no way of knowing upon what you base your statements - so I can neither take issue with you, nor agree with you. If you wish to, please present your evidence and I’ll do my best, as a courtesy, to respond. However, from a personal view-point, I’m not interested in this division. “Haiku,” covers both pieces for me very well thanks. I can live with that.
Overall..
I disagree with your inferences and approach, Daniel. Art is not science; it is not precision. Classifications are useful - helpful to know what is prose; what poetry; what a sonnet; what a SQ. But to me this haiku / Sen thing is angles dancing on pinheads. You are free to explore the deep crevices betwixt these forms; I choose not to. Our approaches are not mutually exclusive. However, simply because your opinion is different from mine does not make you right and me wrong - nor vice versa. If art is about anything, it must be about interpretation of creation. Would it not be a sad thing if a multiplicity of views were not available?
See you later, James.
Hi everyone,
I am not very comfortable in here right now, but I thought it might help to look at Cleo's opening post on this thread:
Haiku is one of the most important forms of traditional Japanese poetry. Haiku is, today, a 17-syllable verse form consisting of three metrical units of 5, 7, and 5 syllables respectively.
Haiku (in English) usually appears as an unrhymed three-line verse. It should balance intense, fragmentary imagery with stress on rhythm and sound. Though it can be presented in three lines, a haiku structurally consists of two parts with a pause in between. The power behind it derives from the juxtaposition of the two images and the sense of surprise or revelation that the second image produces. A good haiku is like a good joke: the set-up, then the punch line.
In the broadest sense,Haiku is about Nature. In Japan, most haiku have a season word (Spring, Summer, Autumn, Winter, New Years) that links the poem with the vast, archetypal round of the Year of Life. Today, in place of the season word, some contemporary haiku poets use keywords that express common themes of human experience (for example, "mother"). This, however, is a matter of controversy in modern haiku.
With love to all,
Fran
I am not very comfortable in here right now, but I thought it might help to look at Cleo's opening post on this thread:
Haiku is one of the most important forms of traditional Japanese poetry. Haiku is, today, a 17-syllable verse form consisting of three metrical units of 5, 7, and 5 syllables respectively.
Haiku (in English) usually appears as an unrhymed three-line verse. It should balance intense, fragmentary imagery with stress on rhythm and sound. Though it can be presented in three lines, a haiku structurally consists of two parts with a pause in between. The power behind it derives from the juxtaposition of the two images and the sense of surprise or revelation that the second image produces. A good haiku is like a good joke: the set-up, then the punch line.
In the broadest sense,Haiku is about Nature. In Japan, most haiku have a season word (Spring, Summer, Autumn, Winter, New Years) that links the poem with the vast, archetypal round of the Year of Life. Today, in place of the season word, some contemporary haiku poets use keywords that express common themes of human experience (for example, "mother"). This, however, is a matter of controversy in modern haiku.
With love to all,
Fran
Amen, Fran!
This is a practice thread; the distinctions have been set out up front. Let's just write them. Debate belongs elswhere. That's my only point.
Blessings to all.
sharin' de Light, Daniel
This is a practice thread; the distinctions have been set out up front. Let's just write them. Debate belongs elswhere. That's my only point.
Blessings to all.
sharin' de Light, Daniel
Hi Fran,
My apologies to you. I wish neither you, nor anyone else, any discomfort.
It is only an academic disagreement. 'Tis all.
Thank you for commentating.
James.
My apologies to you. I wish neither you, nor anyone else, any discomfort.
It is only an academic disagreement. 'Tis all.
Thank you for commentating.
James.
Hi Daniel
Sorry, I don't agree; This is an educational thread and it is very wrong to educate anyone on anything without looking at the various aspects and different opinions about a subject. All such contributions are valid. (including yours and mine).
There are two forums for "just writing" haiku - the crit forum and the exhibition forum. This is education - to which you just contributed. One cannot really contribute then simply deny others a similar participation. To do that would be to make one's own position clear then silence those who disagree - and I'm sure that neither of us would wish to do that.
All the best, James.
Sorry, I don't agree; This is an educational thread and it is very wrong to educate anyone on anything without looking at the various aspects and different opinions about a subject. All such contributions are valid. (including yours and mine).
There are two forums for "just writing" haiku - the crit forum and the exhibition forum. This is education - to which you just contributed. One cannot really contribute then simply deny others a similar participation. To do that would be to make one's own position clear then silence those who disagree - and I'm sure that neither of us would wish to do that.
All the best, James.
snow-covered windshield
whisked with a brush of a hand;
morn's air is cleared
© Daniel J Ricketts 04 Jan 2005
whisked with a brush of a hand;
morn's air is cleared
© Daniel J Ricketts 04 Jan 2005
Hi Daniel..
I think New Jersey is in New England (hope I'm right) and I know you chaps have had lots of bad weather up there. So this poem seems especially apt. Here we've been seized by Global Warming (or hoards of fairies with hair-dryers) and let you have all the tough stuff (famous last words).
So I can see how this poem relates to your weather. (mind you, you are still a little lucky - whenever I brush snow off, there is an ice layer underneath which clings to the windscreen).
Nice one, Daniel.
James.
I think New Jersey is in New England (hope I'm right) and I know you chaps have had lots of bad weather up there. So this poem seems especially apt. Here we've been seized by Global Warming (or hoards of fairies with hair-dryers) and let you have all the tough stuff (famous last words).
So I can see how this poem relates to your weather. (mind you, you are still a little lucky - whenever I brush snow off, there is an ice layer underneath which clings to the windscreen).
Nice one, Daniel.
James.
Hello James,
Ah! It doesn't matter what the writer thinks, Grace.
Can't agree with this James, if the writer hadn't thought in the first place there would be nothing for us to read.
And surely the writer has his/her point of view to put across. He is allowed to state his own interpretation of his own piece. (As we all do when explaining why we wrote the words we wrote, in the order we wrote them.
Once the piece is in the public domain, readers may interpret it as they wish.
Certainly they may and I was not saying that your interpration was wrong, only that I had taken a different meaning from it. There was no criticism of your view whatsover. I was merely trying to understand what Perry was trying to say and demonstrate a different way of saying it.
As to the haiku/senryu debate - it matters not one jot to me what people wish to call it, I was merely offering the definitions of the two words.
Fran,
I am so sorry if you feel uncomfortable here. That is such a shame, since Haiku is one of the most beautiful forms of pure poetry I have encountered. I find these tiny snapshots help to keep my brain ticking over and sometimes inspire longer poems.
Perry,
I hope all this debate will not put you off posting more Haiku for us to read and enjoy. :wave:
Ah! It doesn't matter what the writer thinks, Grace.
Can't agree with this James, if the writer hadn't thought in the first place there would be nothing for us to read.
And surely the writer has his/her point of view to put across. He is allowed to state his own interpretation of his own piece. (As we all do when explaining why we wrote the words we wrote, in the order we wrote them.
Once the piece is in the public domain, readers may interpret it as they wish.
Certainly they may and I was not saying that your interpration was wrong, only that I had taken a different meaning from it. There was no criticism of your view whatsover. I was merely trying to understand what Perry was trying to say and demonstrate a different way of saying it.
As to the haiku/senryu debate - it matters not one jot to me what people wish to call it, I was merely offering the definitions of the two words.
Fran,
I am so sorry if you feel uncomfortable here. That is such a shame, since Haiku is one of the most beautiful forms of pure poetry I have encountered. I find these tiny snapshots help to keep my brain ticking over and sometimes inspire longer poems.
Perry,
I hope all this debate will not put you off posting more Haiku for us to read and enjoy. :wave:
keen gardener;
squatting spider evicted
from his wellingtons
squatting spider evicted
from his wellingtons
Hey, James!
You're not too far off; actually New England is basically the states north of New York. Most of New Jersey is SSW of NY, and the part where we live is actually below the "Mason-Dixon Line" the legendary division between the old "North" and "South" ... that some die-hards still hold to. (I ain't one o' them!) The climate here is moderated by both the Delaware Bay and the Atlantic Ocean... and immediately here by the Cohansey River, which is a tidal river that flows in and out of the Delaware.
We got an inch or so of snow this morning, but it's the first day that the temp seems to be climbing above freezing for a couple of weeks. There's been a LOT of snow and ice this year SOUTH of us. The weather patterns in the US this winter have been a bit topsy-turvy of the "usual." Whether that's the effect of "Global Warming" is up for grabs, I suppose, but surely seems to be.
Anyhow, you may be interested in a bit of "hillbilly humor" on the subject in the faux-ku tile. There, the requirements of the form are absolute -- since I invented them and declared them to be -- so there ain't no debatin'
Thanks for clearin' the windshield; I'll be back with more haiku snow when the weather's right in me head.
deLightingly, Daniel
You're not too far off; actually New England is basically the states north of New York. Most of New Jersey is SSW of NY, and the part where we live is actually below the "Mason-Dixon Line" the legendary division between the old "North" and "South" ... that some die-hards still hold to. (I ain't one o' them!) The climate here is moderated by both the Delaware Bay and the Atlantic Ocean... and immediately here by the Cohansey River, which is a tidal river that flows in and out of the Delaware.
We got an inch or so of snow this morning, but it's the first day that the temp seems to be climbing above freezing for a couple of weeks. There's been a LOT of snow and ice this year SOUTH of us. The weather patterns in the US this winter have been a bit topsy-turvy of the "usual." Whether that's the effect of "Global Warming" is up for grabs, I suppose, but surely seems to be.
Anyhow, you may be interested in a bit of "hillbilly humor" on the subject in the faux-ku tile. There, the requirements of the form are absolute -- since I invented them and declared them to be -- so there ain't no debatin'
Thanks for clearin' the windshield; I'll be back with more haiku snow when the weather's right in me head.
deLightingly, Daniel
QUOTE (Cybele @ Feb. 04 2005, 10:14)
keen gardener;
squatting spider evicted
from his wellingtons
squatting spider evicted
from his wellingtons
Wonderful piece, Grace. I just need your help some by giving me a bit of background on "wellingtons" ? The computer I'm on at work is slower than molasses, so I really can't do a search on it. I'll thank you for giving me even greater appreciation of your two garden snapshots!
deLightingly, Daniel :cool:
H Grace,
Thanks for your reply...
>>Can't agree with this James, if the writer hadn't thought in the first place there would be nothing for us to read.
You're right - bad phrasing by me. I meant that it doesn't matter what the writer thought to my (or anyone's) interpretation. Yes, of course we'd be nowhere without the original text.
>>And surely the writer has his/her point of view to put across. He is allowed to state his own interpretation of his own piece. (As we all do when explaining why we wrote the words we wrote, in the order we wrote them.
Bless you Grace - starting a paragraph with "And" I love doing that - was never allowed to at school.
Did I say or infer that a writer was not allowed to state their meaning? Can't see where I said that - not my opinion at all. If you take a look at my latest thing (Freeform - Memory reflection) Nina offers her view of what she thinks it means and I explain what I meant. I couldn't possibly be against anyone stating what they meant.
>>Certainly they may and I was not saying that your interpretation was wrong, only that I had taken a different meaning from it. There was no criticism of your view whatsoever. I was merely trying to understand what Perry was trying to say and demonstrate a different way of saying it.
I never thought that you were saying my interpretation was wrong... I seem to be saying things I didn't mean. Puzzled. I never took any criticism, Grace - did I make you think I did? Well, I must have but I don't know how. I understood what you were doing - no problems with me. Sorry I'm really incredulous here.
>>As to the haiku/senryu debate - it matters not one jot to me what people wish to call it, I was merely offering the definitions of the two words.
My disagreement is with those definitions. They are not ones I agree with. (Well the haiku isn't - don't know about t'other - not bothered with it). If you look at the original definition which Fran re-quoted, it does give one perspective but then, in the last sentence, it acknowledges that differences exist.
>>Fran, I am so sorry if you feel uncomfortable here. That is such a shame, since Haiku is one of the most beautiful forms of pure poetry I have encountered. I find these tiny snapshots help to keep my brain ticking over and sometimes inspire longer poems.
I will back that entirely. I have already apologised if I made her feel uncomfortable - but I can't think it was anything I said to you and certainly not vice-versa. And I must be able to defend myself.
But it is right that we should argue these differences - You may remember I'm the chap who doesn't believe in Magic, Religion or Science. I hate the idea of absolutes. If you say "My name's Grace" that's fine. Your choice.
But if someone says "these are the rules" I always want to know how, why, who set them, by what authority, on what basis, why does it matter and a million more points.
One lad once questioned my authority to do something in class (though he was not rude per se). I resisted the temptation to say "Because I say so." I put him in detention and, instead of work, I also remained behind for the hour and talked to him. I argued my corner, listened to his and it went back and forth. In the end I think he was desperate to get away and would have preferred I said "because I say so." We got on fine after that.
My view is never accept anything on face value - ask what value and what reason the face. I always remember most Germans accepted Hitler without question. If we cede authority, plenty of people will be only too pleased to take it. Who are these Haiku experts? Why are they better able to state what a haiku should be than you, Daniel, or I; we all have our views. All are equally valid unless the experts can convince us otherwise. (I'd never be out of The Glasshouse if I were in the Army).
Thanks Grace, still perplexed as to why you think I took umbrage; I assure you I didn't.
Best wishes, J,
Thanks for your reply...
>>Can't agree with this James, if the writer hadn't thought in the first place there would be nothing for us to read.
You're right - bad phrasing by me. I meant that it doesn't matter what the writer thought to my (or anyone's) interpretation. Yes, of course we'd be nowhere without the original text.
>>And surely the writer has his/her point of view to put across. He is allowed to state his own interpretation of his own piece. (As we all do when explaining why we wrote the words we wrote, in the order we wrote them.
Bless you Grace - starting a paragraph with "And" I love doing that - was never allowed to at school.
Did I say or infer that a writer was not allowed to state their meaning? Can't see where I said that - not my opinion at all. If you take a look at my latest thing (Freeform - Memory reflection) Nina offers her view of what she thinks it means and I explain what I meant. I couldn't possibly be against anyone stating what they meant.
>>Certainly they may and I was not saying that your interpretation was wrong, only that I had taken a different meaning from it. There was no criticism of your view whatsoever. I was merely trying to understand what Perry was trying to say and demonstrate a different way of saying it.
I never thought that you were saying my interpretation was wrong... I seem to be saying things I didn't mean. Puzzled. I never took any criticism, Grace - did I make you think I did? Well, I must have but I don't know how. I understood what you were doing - no problems with me. Sorry I'm really incredulous here.
>>As to the haiku/senryu debate - it matters not one jot to me what people wish to call it, I was merely offering the definitions of the two words.
My disagreement is with those definitions. They are not ones I agree with. (Well the haiku isn't - don't know about t'other - not bothered with it). If you look at the original definition which Fran re-quoted, it does give one perspective but then, in the last sentence, it acknowledges that differences exist.
>>Fran, I am so sorry if you feel uncomfortable here. That is such a shame, since Haiku is one of the most beautiful forms of pure poetry I have encountered. I find these tiny snapshots help to keep my brain ticking over and sometimes inspire longer poems.
I will back that entirely. I have already apologised if I made her feel uncomfortable - but I can't think it was anything I said to you and certainly not vice-versa. And I must be able to defend myself.
But it is right that we should argue these differences - You may remember I'm the chap who doesn't believe in Magic, Religion or Science. I hate the idea of absolutes. If you say "My name's Grace" that's fine. Your choice.
But if someone says "these are the rules" I always want to know how, why, who set them, by what authority, on what basis, why does it matter and a million more points.
One lad once questioned my authority to do something in class (though he was not rude per se). I resisted the temptation to say "Because I say so." I put him in detention and, instead of work, I also remained behind for the hour and talked to him. I argued my corner, listened to his and it went back and forth. In the end I think he was desperate to get away and would have preferred I said "because I say so." We got on fine after that.
My view is never accept anything on face value - ask what value and what reason the face. I always remember most Germans accepted Hitler without question. If we cede authority, plenty of people will be only too pleased to take it. Who are these Haiku experts? Why are they better able to state what a haiku should be than you, Daniel, or I; we all have our views. All are equally valid unless the experts can convince us otherwise. (I'd never be out of The Glasshouse if I were in the Army).
Thanks Grace, still perplexed as to why you think I took umbrage; I assure you I didn't.
Best wishes, J,
Hi Daniel,
Thanks for your reply,
>>You're not too far off; actually New England is basically the states north of New York. Most of New Jersey is SSW of NY, and the part where we live is actually below the "Mason-Dixon Line" the legendary division between the old "North" and "South" ... that some die-hards still hold to. (I ain't one o' them! The climate here is moderated by both the Delaware Bay and the Atlantic Ocean... and immediately here by the Cohansey River, which is a tidal river that flows in and out of the Delaware.
Thanks for that; I knew none of it. Very interesting. I'm 55m west of London, UK and we're on a level with Moscow and Canada - should be far colder - only the Gulf Stream keeps us warm.
The only thing I (and sorry about this) know about Delaware is the old song naming all the states - Guy Mitchell? It includes the awful line "What does Della wear, boys?" (repeated I think). It was my Mother's name so i remember it well.
>>We got an inch or so of snow this morning, but it's the first day that the temp seems to be climbing above freezing for a couple of weeks. There's been a LOT of snow and ice this year SOUTH of us. The weather patterns in the US this winter have been a bit topsy-turvy of the "usual." Whether that's the effect of "Global Warming" is up for grabs, I suppose, but surely seems to be.
Yes, actually, looking back the climate has been changing here since I was a youngster. Used to have deep snow for several days/ weeks every winter - now a rarity.
>>Anyhow, you may be interested in a bit of "hillbilly humor" on the subject in the faux-ku tile. There, the requirements of the form are absolute -- since I invented them and declared them to be -- so there ain't no debatin'
LOL! That's the way to do it. Thanks for the tip-off, been there before - but I'll revisit. Cheers.
>>Thanks for clearin' the windshield; I'll be back with more haiku snow when the weather's right in me head.
Good to chat with you as always, Daniel. Good haiku, too.
Cheers, James.
Thanks for your reply,
>>You're not too far off; actually New England is basically the states north of New York. Most of New Jersey is SSW of NY, and the part where we live is actually below the "Mason-Dixon Line" the legendary division between the old "North" and "South" ... that some die-hards still hold to. (I ain't one o' them! The climate here is moderated by both the Delaware Bay and the Atlantic Ocean... and immediately here by the Cohansey River, which is a tidal river that flows in and out of the Delaware.
Thanks for that; I knew none of it. Very interesting. I'm 55m west of London, UK and we're on a level with Moscow and Canada - should be far colder - only the Gulf Stream keeps us warm.
The only thing I (and sorry about this) know about Delaware is the old song naming all the states - Guy Mitchell? It includes the awful line "What does Della wear, boys?" (repeated I think). It was my Mother's name so i remember it well.
>>We got an inch or so of snow this morning, but it's the first day that the temp seems to be climbing above freezing for a couple of weeks. There's been a LOT of snow and ice this year SOUTH of us. The weather patterns in the US this winter have been a bit topsy-turvy of the "usual." Whether that's the effect of "Global Warming" is up for grabs, I suppose, but surely seems to be.
Yes, actually, looking back the climate has been changing here since I was a youngster. Used to have deep snow for several days/ weeks every winter - now a rarity.
>>Anyhow, you may be interested in a bit of "hillbilly humor" on the subject in the faux-ku tile. There, the requirements of the form are absolute -- since I invented them and declared them to be -- so there ain't no debatin'
LOL! That's the way to do it. Thanks for the tip-off, been there before - but I'll revisit. Cheers.
>>Thanks for clearin' the windshield; I'll be back with more haiku snow when the weather's right in me head.
Good to chat with you as always, Daniel. Good haiku, too.
Cheers, James.
Hi Daniel,
Wellington boots are long waterproof rubber boots. They used to be only black or green, but now come in all colours and patterns, especially for children.
Fran
Wellington boots are long waterproof rubber boots. They used to be only black or green, but now come in all colours and patterns, especially for children.
Fran
welly boots stomping
nature trail secrets
in wildest delight
nature trail secrets
in wildest delight
Daniel,
Thanks Fran - A little more, also...
Wellies - abbreviated slang for those Wellington Boots.
The Duke of Wellington was so-called after the Battle of Wellington. In turn, Wellington boots are named after him - because he wore long boots in battle.
I think you may call them "Gum Boots" in the USA?
Churchill was a descendent of the Duke of Wellington - and a native American was his mother, to boot.
Steppin' gooily in me Wellies in the mud...
James.
Thanks Fran - A little more, also...
Wellies - abbreviated slang for those Wellington Boots.
The Duke of Wellington was so-called after the Battle of Wellington. In turn, Wellington boots are named after him - because he wore long boots in battle.
I think you may call them "Gum Boots" in the USA?
Churchill was a descendent of the Duke of Wellington - and a native American was his mother, to boot.
Steppin' gooily in me Wellies in the mud...
James.
Hello Daniel,
How's that for service? No sooner queried than answered. Hope you got the picture to go with the explanation?
Fran,
Great riposte!
welly boots stomping
nature trail secrets
in wildest delight
Brings back fond memories of field nature trips at school. :dance:
How's that for service? No sooner queried than answered. Hope you got the picture to go with the explanation?
Fran,
Great riposte!
welly boots stomping
nature trail secrets
in wildest delight
Brings back fond memories of field nature trips at school. :dance:
squish felt in wellies
shrouded by web of intrigue...
erst wee spider
shrouded by web of intrigue...
erst wee spider
Daniel, that would be my worst nightmare - terrified of spiders. I can cope with snakes, worms, troops of baboons and even Yellow Class at school - but not spiders.
Yours, running to check my wellies are arachnid-free,
Fran
Yours, running to check my wellies are arachnid-free,
Fran
Hi Everyone,
Haiku/Senryu (as you will)
Haiku/Senryu (as you will)
that last November :
boys in khaki uniform
faded into mist
boys in khaki uniform
faded into mist
Hi, Grace! I would say that this is one of those senryu variety of haiku, myself. You've given quite a picture of going off into the unknown utilizing the weather, and the khaki uniforms date the picture to a bygone era, methinks, since uniforms are camo these days. Are you thinking of Ralph back then, or some other friends going off to another war.
But then the picture also captures the pathos of any present situation too. Extremely well done...
and you know that I'd likely have ended the piece with
faded into missed
Lightly, Daniel
But then the picture also captures the pathos of any present situation too. Extremely well done...
and you know that I'd likely have ended the piece with
faded into missed
QUOTE (Cybele @ Feb. 06 2005, 09:37)
Hi Everyone,
Haiku/Senryu (as you will)
Haiku/Senryu (as you will)
that last November :
boys in khaki uniform
faded into mist
boys in khaki uniform
faded into mist
Lightly, Daniel
Here's another of the senryu variety of haiku (which sometimes have a bit of humor) which some outside the US may or may not understand:
Patriots rejoice
over bald Eagles' demise?
rings of tyranny
Lightly, Daniel :sun:
Patriots rejoice
over bald Eagles' demise?
rings of tyranny
Lightly, Daniel :sun:
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