JustDaniel
Oct 27 04, 05:56
Greetings, Queen o' the Nile!
QUOTE (Cleo_Serapis @ Oct. 27 2004, 06:18)
frosted driveway
signals start of Winter's Day
in late October
This is a fascinating snapshot, but unless "Winter's Day" is a day I don't know about, LorII, methinks it oughta be without the caps to maintain that haiku tradition? ... and might you consoder something like this... to work toward two distinct snapshots of the same scene?
late October
signals winter's days too soon;
frosted driveway
sLightly slippin' off to work, Daniel 
P.S. Can my icon image be made smaller? It takes up too much space... and maybe scares folks off! 
Good afternoon Daniel. 
QUOTE
Grace, you'll have to write about those moors and give us the feeling of that "backbone" too. Sounds like fodder for some more poetry and a travelog for us colonists on the other side of the pond, eh? We needs some edumacation!
I will see what I can do Daniel ~ I never gave it a thought before now.
QUOTE
an' speakin' o' edumacation, Grace, ya gots ta watch out fer usin' them capitals in these here oriental snapshots, ya know! ... an' since when does a Cockney lass capitalize on an 'h' anyhow?!
sorry Daniel, I have always associated a Hunter’s moon with a capital letter, as that is generally how is it written even in mid-sentence over here. As you know I GENERALLY AVOID CAPITALS IN HAIKU 
mooning o’er harvest
white-tail grazes field naked;
hunter’s moon
very cheeky! 
Love
Grace
JustDaniel
Oct 27 04, 08:27
JustDaniel
Oct 27 04, 11:20
there she goes again:
strippin' off 'er close, displays
senryu 'haiku'
sLightly shocked, Daniel :oops:
P.S. Is that a movie Meryl and Robert were in. I love them both! Meryl can play ANYONE!! :dove:
Hi Daniel,
I didn't think there was anyone in America (or Britain) who hadn't seen The Deer Hunter. :speechless:
This film was hailed by some as the best war film ever made and yet was slated by others, who thought the film was about war and not friendship.
Robert De Niro was a little wooden (I have to say he is a good actor because he invariably scares me witless (as in Cape Fear). 
Merryl Streep as always was spellbinding to watch. (My favourite living actress!!) her greatest triumph was in Sophie's Choice. :sings:
Love
Grace
ancient boulder
host to dainty spring flower;
perfumed parasite
Grace
JustDaniel
Oct 28 04, 02:04
Toni stone-head said
Let them eat cake ~ she lost hers;
parfumed Parisite
oops! Was that a pseudo-ku?
full October moon
eclipsed by Earth’s shadow;
hunter dons orange
Great reply Daniel,
Yes, definitely a pseudo-ku, but hey, I make so many mistakes ~
I'll let you off that one. I'm feeling magnanimous today 
QUOTE
Toni stone-head said
Let them eat cake ~ she lost hers;
parfumed Parisite
Particularly liked the last line Daniel, french parfume on a paris - ite.
By the way, wasn't the cake she mentioned really brioche?
full October moon
eclipsed by Earth’s shadow;
hunter dons orange
Still out with those hound Daniel? Very pretty!
Love
Grace
JustDaniel
Oct 28 04, 03:34
... no hounds. Went out to see the eclipse (of the hunter's moon, remember!) during commercials during Law and Order last night. I remarkable sight... and the hunter DID don orange.
Your turn for another now!
deLightingly heading back to bed, Daniel :sun:
Oops !!
... no hounds. Went out to see the eclipse (of the hunter's moon, remember
Didn't know about this Daniel, there was no announcement made here that I heard, or I would have been out there gazing in wonder. Perhaps it wasn't visible over here.
long summer drought
wren. tiny pinions flapping
dust bathing
Love
Grace
JustDaniel
Oct 28 04, 07:42
duck slowly waddles;
no more soring 'neath eagles
on worn out, cold wings
Hello Daniel,
QUOTE
duck slowly waddles;
no more soring 'neath eagles
on worn out, cold wings
Lovely picture. I love ducks 
This happened last week at the zoo.
caught on film
turning his face to me
flat fish disappears
Love
Grace
:ranbow:
JustDaniel
Oct 30 04, 09:59
I think that's more of a senryu, don't you think, Grace? And since I assume you're in an aquarium, I guess there's no way to indicate season, is there... though much modern haiku merely snap-shots nature without the seasonal reference, I hear. Anyhow, might this be more haikuish?
filmy nothingness;
face turned to a camera
flat fish fades away
deLighting in our exchanges, Daniel :sun:
settlers in chest
congest the neighborhood;
cilliness stirred up
JustDaniel
Oct 31 04, 01:00
I suppose it is, Grace... one from a guy with onset bronchitis... that has had me in bed all day long... except to go to the doc's whom I discovered was away! Fortunately, the on-call doc responded to my call and called in a prescription for antibiotics... so now I'm killin' off all the bad (and probably the good) antigen fighters inside me.
QUOTE
flood tide
a mournful curlew cries
waiting, waiting
ebb tide
a plumping plover pipes
wading, wading
sLightly ku-ku, Daniel
tongue-tied
a robbin' dread-breast croaks
heavin' heaven
Scene in the park.
late for the skein;
amorous goose bidding
widowed cob farewell
Love
Grace
JustDaniel
Oct 31 04, 05:14
lonely widowed goose
stays back to tend her gosling;
regrets taking a gander
sLightly askew, Daniel :sun:
lilac teardrops cling
to grey stone in spring sunshine;
old wisteria
JustDaniel
Nov 2 04, 11:18
QUOTE (Cybele @ Nov. 01 2004, 17:42)
lilac teardrops cling
to grey stone in spring sunshine;
old wisteria
Grace, I'm not sure I get the connection between the two snapshots, even though the first one is quite good. Could you explain?
... and did you get the humor in my little 'haiku'? or did you not wish to take a further gander at it? :turkey:
This may be more of a senryu; it's certainly borderline... or maybe I should give it a title and make it a faux-ku? Do you think I can be completely serious?
turkey flaps its wings
to perch above young lions;
pride before the fall
sLightly rumpled, Daniel :sun:
JustDaniel
Nov 2 04, 14:13
Hi, Grace! 
Ahh... I had been thinking of lilac not as color but as the tree! That makes the picture crystal-clear.
:)
... but now you'll have to tell me what a racine is, since, except for a Frenchman and the name of 5 cities in the US, nine dictionaries I consulted don't have a definition for it.
As for distractions, believe me, my bronchitis has been a big one the last several days too, so no need for explanations... though they're always appreciated!
I always enjoy your smile, so I'm pleased that both of these gave you one. The closing line of the second one is a double reference, first to pride as the quality (positive or negative) of a being; second to a pride of young lions... preparing to devour the flapping creature one fine fall day... the beginning of its fall to pride. Though I'm sure the lions will be thankful, I'd no thought of Thanksgiving, so we've no need to get out our epees. Time for appeasement!
Your latest SENRYU is magnificent, even without your explanation. I could picture the beauty before reading the background, but it enriches it the more. 
deLightingly, Daniel
exhausted maple
surreptitiously draws in;
limbs lose their color
© MLee Dickens’son 02 Nov 2004
Oops Daniel,
QUOTE
but now you'll have to tell me what a racine is, since, except for a Frenchman and the name of 5 cities in the US, nine dictionaries I consulted don't have a definition for it.
Sorry, a typo should be raceme ( a cluster of flowers) looking not unlike a bunch of grapes.
exhausted maple
surreptitiously draws in;
limbs lose their color
So sad Daniel! I have an acer maple (miniature) in my garden which I have had for about twelve years and I have never seen it look more beautiful than it does right at this moment, Must be a haiku in there somewhere :detective:
Now on a lighter note..
kitchen drawer;
even knowing it’s not here
my search continues
Love
Grace
JustDaniel
Nov 3 04, 08:20
Hey, Grace...
just back from the Philadelphia Airport, picking up my oldest daughter back from visiting my middle one and her husband in San Diego. Feeling a bit better, but staying home from work again today to recuperate and catch up with myself physically.
Thank you for comment on my serious piece about the maple closing up shop for the fall and winter. Did you notice the sneaky little wink that I squeezed into it?
As to your miniature, yes, I'm betting there is a HAIKU in there somewhere. Why not post it... since you've gotten so very good at posting rather excellent SENRYU in this tile!
QUOTE (Cybele @ Nov. 02 2004, 17:05)
kitchen drawer;
even knowing it’s not here
my search continues
I know you've been a bit rushed... and that can both make you try to find a haiku in your kitchen drawer and then mistake it for a senryu and then perhaps even use more words to express it than may be necessary. I know you'd never do that if you were at leisure! Here's a cheeky pen and ink tweak 'suggestion'... before you refocus your attention out of your drawers and back to another well-seasoned look outside for a haiku:
artist's delusion
kitchen drawer;
though the object wasn't there
her paws continued
~ ~ ~
garden artist's stroke:
leaves flow from drawn canvas
to mulch wintered roses
sharin' deLight, Daniel
JustDaniel
Nov 3 04, 22:09
Darn, Grace! I'm wondering if you're getting my tongue-in-cheek...
like my (maple) syrup-ticious word squeezed in... or my chiding you for a wordy senryu in this haiku tile and then 'suggesting' a faux-ku in the same tile as a 'correction' of yours... complete with a total twist of the meaning of draw-er? And this particular artist is a landscape gardener preparing his roses for the winter, having raked leaves onto a canvas, then dragging them to his roses to mulch them. Did you notice? [ That's half the joy of sharing with you! The little winks! I simply love to take off on your wonderful pieces. Your senryu honestly have become marvelous! ]
Now... back to haiku.
You'll have to tell me more about Buson. [Please don't forget that you're sharing here with an unread bumpkin here, ya know, Grace. ] I do love the simple technique of focus you share! Neat. And you've given a great example of it too.
QUOTE
in the vast heavens
a supernova explodes;
lotus flower blossoms
crisp, now orange moon
peeks through naked maple twigs;
spider spins intrigue
© MLee Dickens’son 03 Nov 2004
spinnin' de Light, Daniel
[b]Hi Daniel,
QUOTE
Darn, Grace! I'm wondering if you're getting my tongue-in-cheek...
like my (maple) syrup-ticious word squeezed in...
Must admit I didn't get the syrup-ticious. We don't have maple syrup over here only golden syrup Daniel.
or my chiding you for a wordy senryu in this haiku tile and then 'suggesting' a faux-ku in the same tile as a 'correction' of yours... complete with a total twist of the meaning of draw-er?
Sorry, missed the irony here too Daniel. Think I must be tired, I just picked up on the 'wordy' bit.
And this particular artist is a landscape gardener preparing his roses for the winter, having raked leaves onto a canvas, then dragging them to his roses to mulch them. Did you notice?
This. I understood completely, and a very lovely picture it is too, but I was so delighted to see that you too were posting Senryu in the haiku tile I had to laugh at that.
[ That's half the joy of sharing with you! The little winks! I simply love to take off on your wonderful pieces. Your senryu honestly have become marvelous!
I am now getting a little paranoid and have to check back to see if I am answering in Senryu or Haiku. Why can't the two live side by side. After all they are both Haiku ?
Perhaps it would be easier if you were to post one piece at a time Daniel, then I could give it my whole attention, comment on it and then post another piece. At the moment the typing is wearing my fingers to the bone and what do I have to show for it? Nothing but bony fingers
Meanwhile back at the haiku tile...
rosy-hued twilight
a flock of starlings practice
their Mexican wave
Love
Grace
[b]Hello Daniel,
Back from my trip to Cornwall.
QUOTE
warm waves in Rio
lick sandy nmounds that topple...
less than Bikini's
Hmmm, yes I've seen pictures of those bikini's in Rio and from the rear it looked as if the wearers had been strapped for cash !!
Lick sandy nmounds (was that deliberated or a typo?)
Tell you what Daniel, I don't mind if they are senryu of haiku.
bitter winter's night,
eerie moonlight illumines
a frozen scarecrow
Love
Grace
JustDaniel
Nov 8 04, 10:38
It was an interesting typo, huh?
How about this for a follow-up to your inspiring piece, Grace? (And welcome bac to CornBall!)
shiver to mourning;
rays strike scarecrow’s frozen head
as tears flow lightly
Huggin' Lightly, Daniel
Hi there Daniel,
I hope the patient is recovering? Another couple of days at home before I dash off again.
QUOTE
shiver to mourning;
rays strike scarecrow’s frozen head
as tears flow lightly
Nice riposte Daniel, I especially like the image in the second and third lines, very visual.
Back to glorious Autumn then..
autumn’s lost treasure
nestling on a bed of leaves
a dove-grey feather
Love
Grace
JustDaniel
Nov 17 04, 04:13
ah, a very sensitive piece! You make the feather bed sneak up on the reader!
grey-feather dove
no more winters in Rio;
she misses her flight
wimpering Lightly, Daniel :sun:
P.S. My bronchitis has mostly flown away. I wish I could!
JustDaniel
Nov 19 04, 11:24
Hey, Grace...
I'm not sure whether I'm shady... or pale in insignificance against the bacground of your poetry!
... but I certainly like your latest haiku!
Now, if you don't object too strongly, I'd like to introduce the serious haiku that your piece again mused [ You may simply remove the title from it to have what I think on the surface (floating feathers) is a rather innocent haiku ] in the form of my infamous faux-ku:
blue eau beau
cerulean wind
wooed eider down between reeds;
blew music heaven
© MLee Dickens’son 19 Nov 2004
It it always a pleasure to bounce off of you!
Lightly beaming, Daniel
Good morning Daniel,
cerulean wind
wooed eider down between reeds;
blew music heaven
I much prefer this as a serious haiku Daniel. A lovely picture!
It is teeming down over here, (which inspired this piece)
fat raindrops
dance merrily on the pond;
fat frog croaks the tune
Love
Grace
JustDaniel
Nov 27 04, 22:41
Please note again, Grace, that the title on my haiku was just a practice addition... and it IS a serious faux-ku. Don't you think a person can be VERY serious with a twinkle in his eye? I wanted you to hear the oboe in the bacground of the orchestra along with the vocals! Did you?
But I do honestly appreciate your prodding me toward the purely serious haiku. I hope I haven't kept others away with my humor. I have a tendency to do that, I've learned!
Anyhow, I found your latest rendition cute, but a bit on the fat side! 
I've been trying to think of something to pair with it, but an image of a frog 'croaking' keeps coming to mind, and I see myself fishing him out of the bottom of the pond or seeing him floating on the top all bloated... so I've just stayed away for a bit.
But alas I come back to have that same word croak out at me!
maple leaf dances
to strains of an autumn air;
pond ripples applause
strokin' Lightly, Daniel
Hello Daniel,
QUOTE
maple leaf dances
to strains of an autumn air;
pond ripples applause
Quite lovely and LIGHT
summer balloon fest
silent silken rainbows rise;
child blows bright bubbles
I know, it's senryu, but it is still haiku
Lolve
Grace
JustDaniel
Dec 1 04, 10:57
dove saw yer balloon;
it sent ya a rude, high coo
just to put ya down
dove coos at strange orbs;
balloons and bubbles float past
as cloud wrinkles brow
Hello Daniel,
Couldn't see this one until I transferred it here. That light blue doesn't show up very well at all.
dove coos at strange orbs;
balloons and bubbles float past
as cloud wrinkles brow
Very good Daniel, but no cl;ouds on this beautiful morning. They held off till the next morning, thank goodness.
Love
Grace
Hi Daniel,
A turn around. My reply to you reply.
QUOTE
dove coos at strange orbs;
balloons and bubbles float past
as cloud wrinkles brow
billing and cooing
turtle doves in a pear tree;
cotton clouds float by
:dove: :dove:
Love
Grace
JustDaniel
Dec 3 04, 07:10
JustDaniel
Dec 6 04, 09:37
Continuing the bird theme, I went outside to my van at work this morning to be surrounded by this scene... and just as suddenly, it disappeared:
tinkle-like cackling
swarms from sky, filling tree heights;
grackles leave ~ silence
© Daniel J Ricketts 06 Dec 2004
Hi,
Towards undefining haiku...
The British Haiku Society (membership £20-25 pa) has an excellent web page...
British Haiku Society
I suggest you take a look there and click on the "Occasional Papers" link on the left menu bar. The paper sets-out the parameters for haiku, as they see it and even mentions sci-fi haiku etc.
There is also a page of national competition winning entries - some of which abnadon the 5-7-5 format.
I quote a small piece from the website:
"Followers of haiku also debate whether the Japanese haiku experience (defined in socio-cultural, literary, linguistic and environmental terms) is too exotic to be assimilated by the West, and they argue about the validity of supposed Japanese 'rules' on how to make haiku - even though there has never been unanimity in Japan itself about such principles, and the view of haiku available to most people in the West is one clouded by translation and the mind-sets of those who did the translating."
"These are the reasons why it is unlikely, either now or at any time in the future, that there will ever be an absolute consensus of what haiku means to the informed person.."
I think this means that Grace's haiku with its different syllable count for all (except me who does see it as 5.7.5) is fine and that my more extreme views are fine, too. This second quote rather sums-up the situation...
"Some regard the form of 17 syllables (divided 5-7-5) as sacrosanct, as if it had some indefinable poetic or spiritual justification, or was ordained by literary history. The fact is, the form derives from nothing more mysterious than inbred Japanese phrasing, found in statements as unpoetic as police notices and TV commercials."
There is also mention of Senryu - defined very much as Daniel has already stated on MM. However, the following is interesting...
"For most Japanese there is, for cultural-historical reasons, an almost unbridgeable gap between haiku and senryu. Because of our traditions in the West, this kind of compartmentalisation is unsustainable. The majority of Western writers produce haiku and senryu indiscriminately."
I recommend a visit to the site. It does suggest parameters which define these two verse forms and says specific approaches and topics could not be consodered to be haiku. In fact it is very impressive.
The British haiku Society runs competitions - but only for its members, apparently - though, as I understand it, anyone from anywhere in the World is welcome to join.
All the best, James.
Thank you for this James,
May I add this extract found on the site Yellow Moon?
Haiku is usually written in three lines with a strict maximum of 17 syllables in a traditional pattern of 5-7-5, but English syllables are not the same as Japanese onji. They vary in length. So many English haiku may have fewer syllables.
Haiku should contain a seasonal word but you do not need to use the names of the actual seasons, such as Spring or Autumn. Other, less predictable words may indicate season - wattle, buds, rapeseed, new life, almond blossom, falling leaves, melting snow. Use the names of the seasons themselves to symbolise birth, life, growing old, or death. Symbolic words have deeper meaning. A crow may allude to death; a raven to a message. Water may suggest an emotion, or air a spirit.
Haiku is a simple statement or image, a moment keenly perceived, about a physical aspect of nature which induces an emotional human response and the contemplation of life's wonder and transience. Unlike other poetic styles, haiku disregards such contrivances as alliteration, assonance or rhyme, unless these occur naturally. It uses the natural flow of voice patterns. In haiku nothing is 'like' or 'as' something else - it is only itself. It is the human observation of, and identification with, the natural world that shape the haiku.
Do not start each line of your haiku with a capital letter unless that line is an independent sentence. Use of enjambment (one line flowing into another) is preferable to short staccato phrases. Haiku is rarely about individuals so does not often use the personal pronoun, although a derivation of haiku called SENRYU does.
Hope this helps.
Thanks Grace.
It seems to me that there is very little agreement about what a haiku should be. They tend to occupy three lines and are quite short. They are often about nature. They were originally based on Japanese verse form. Beyond that I see no firm consensus. Certainly the number of syllables, the subject, the use of metaphor (frowned on by many) can fine and so on. Much rests on English translations of the original Japanese - and these seem many and variable.
I think this underlines the point I'm trying to make which is that strict form in haiku is erroneous. Moreover, there is no reason why individuals should not develop the form for themselves (as you say you were doing with your clock tower).
Lori invents new forms but the line between invention and development is fine. Unless we are to fossilise forms then they must be developed. Nonetheless, when people wish to adhere strictly to what they believe to be a classic form that is fine, too. I just think we should accept that a plurality of approach is fine. I would ask just three questions:
What is poetry for?
Why does it matter if classic interpretations - or misinterpretations - are not adhered to?
Should not developments be welcomed? (They do not harm the other versions - which remain to be used by anyone).
James.
Finally, and on a more personal note, I suppose. Whenever someone says I should do something, I immediately see a challenge. I want to know why I should? why they are saying I should? what authority they have to say so? why I should actually do what is said? I find the majority of the time people are merely trying to impose their views as gospel. I almost always see "should" as a challenge and usually feel duty-bound to both argue that they are basing their claim on their own chosen foundations and to go in the opposite direction as hard as possible to prove "should" is merely an opinion. And when people challenge me on my assertions (because I do the same, of course) I relish the argument - can be fascinating. So, when I see "Haiku should contain a seasonal word but you do not need to..." I feel almost duty bound to write a haiku which is abstract or based on (as the British Haiku Society says is possible) science fiction. Then again, I'm not a fan of science fiction unless some idea hits me... or was it some Japanese spirit - The Haiku God?
jgdittier
Jan 28 05, 18:12
moon and sun align
a shadow transits landscapes
how bright this candle
Hi Ron,
Good to see you venturing into haiku.
Just one q... transites? Couldn't find it in the dictionary - could you please enlighten me?
Cheers, James.
Hi Jgd,
This is beautiful - the eclipse shadow sweeping across the scene and the sudden darkness.
My mother-in-law saw a solar eclipse a few years ago stying at a friend's farm in Devon and she said that as darkness swept accross the hills all the bats flew out of the barn in confusion (and then dashed back again when the sunlight returned).
I think I remember seeing in the Haiku definitions that there is supposed to be a 'natural seasonal image' but no doubt the experts (Grace, Daniel, Cleo and others) can explain that if 'tis so. Otherwise it would qualify as Senryu, which seems to be similar form but with less strict requirements on content (although from recent discussions on MM all are English-speaking impositions on what were after all forms from a very different language and tradition.... )
(I'm not sure if I'm supposed to write so much in a non-crit forum - apolgies if I have said too much, and I will edit if asked.)
Fran
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