Mary Boren
Dec 8 07, 14:07
How in the world did poets of yore function without an international workshopping group? Lori's
recent thread in Hermes got me to wondering how some of the beloved classics would fare if posted here today. Critters, sharpen your fangs. I'll have a go at it below.
Stopping by the Woods on a Snowy EveningWhose woods these are I think I know.
His house is in the village though;
He will not see me stopping here
To watch his woods fill up with snow.
My little horse must think it queer
To stop without a farmhouse near
Between the woods and frozen lake
The darkest evening of the year.
He gives his harness bells a shake
To ask if there is some mistake.
The only other sound's the sweep
Of easy wind and downy flake.
The woods are lovely, dark and deep.
But I have promises to keep,
And miles to go before I sleep,
And miles to go before I sleep.
Robert Frost, 1922
Mary Boren
Dec 8 07, 14:10
Hi Bob.
Welcome to MM!
I enjoyed this intriguing piece immensely -- great job of mood-setting and layering. I haven't had the pleasure of reading your work before, but it's clear you are no stranger to form poetry. Your meter is impeccable. I think you might strive for a little more freshness in your rhymes, though, and some polysyllabics to perk the lines up a bit. A catchier title wouldn't hurt -- maybe something esoteric, less telly. Do you feel strongly about capping the first letter of each line regardless where the word falls in a sentence? In olden days, this was a necessary signal to the typesetter to indicate line breaks, but there's no valid reason for the practice to continue. Many readers (including this one) find it intrusive. Also, I note that all your lines are endstopped. A smattering of enjambment can work wonders in overcoming singsonginess.
Some inline thoughts for your consideration:
QUOTE
Whose woods these are I think I know.
You really ought to have another look at that glaring inversion. There's always another way to say a thing without twisting syntax.
QUOTE
My little horse must think it queer
Oh my.
You're taking a big risk here, Bob. Surely you can find a match for near and year without resorting to such an emotionally loaded, not to mention politically incorrect word.
QUOTE
He gives his harness bells a shake
To ask if there is some mistake.
The only other sound's the sweep
Of easy wind and downy flake.
No serious nits in these lines, I just wanted to see them again because they present such a stunning word picture. This is superb writing. However, I can't help wondering if you might be able to rephrase in a way that does not strip the wind and flake of their articles. That line's a tad adjective-heavy anyhow. Maybe something like "of wind across the downy flakes." (No harm in a singular/plural rhyme pairing, or so I'm told.)
QUOTE
The woods are lovely, dark and deep.
But I have promises to keep,
And miles to go before I sleep,
And miles to go before I sleep.
You might catch flack elsewhere for the repetition, but I think you've used it to stellar effect here. Leaves me with a pensive feeling.
All in all, an excellent first posting. More, please.
Mary
jgdittier
Dec 8 07, 16:37
Dear Nada,
My jaw hurts from smiling so hard!!!
I suspect the irony abounds in your most ingenious critique!
I have written several paraphrases based on Frost's rubiayat. The form
captured my imagination immediately and motivated me to read his bio and much of his poetry.
You and I share closely, I believe, respect for meter but differ, I believe, on every (negative) comment you made thereafter. So be it. My style had its day, the modern style is now having its. As we can always count on change (except from a vending machine), the future will dictate the changes.
Meanwhile, a loud "noonway" to you for your response.
Cheers, Ron jgd
ps-Noonway is a word we used when my sons and I were in Indian Guides, indicating great approval and appreciation.
Hello Bob,
I've had the pleasure of reviewing your handwritten page and see that you've done some tweaking in the original. You struck L3 in the last verse and repeated L4 - couldn't come up with anything better? There's the further repetition of "woods" in L1, L4, & L7 and again L13. I'm not completely convinced that you couldn't have come up with better wording - where you've already tweaked }forest{ from L7.
It strikes me odd that your horse thinks in abstract terms. Why should he think it queer that you stopped in the middle of no-where, to get down for a ... ? This is the Christmas season, and one can draw from that you were visiting and had a bit of xmas cheer. (V2L4).
A great poem none-the-less, Bob. Drive straight on the way home and sleep it off.
Merlin
Mary Boren
Dec 8 07, 18:41
Thanks for pouncing on this fun little exercise so quickly, Ron. You're suspicion is correct. My jaw's okay but my cheek hurts from having the tongue lodged in it so tightly. Since being introduced to this poem in high school (eons ago) it has remained one of my favorites, and I have no doubt that if Bob was writing today his style would reflect contemporary standards of craftsmanship. In fact, I don't much care for his later ventures into FV. As for the differing preferences amongst thee and me, that's perfectly okay -- we can always celebrate the passion we share for immaculate rhythm.
Ha ha ha, Merlin -- that's hilarious! Hey, where did you see the handwritten draft? I googled deep enough to learn that it's on display in the JFK Library, but I couldn't find a copy online. I did turn up a recording of Frost reading the poem,
here.
Mary
The page is pictured in one book I have, showing misc strikeouts and changes. The horse, for example, was a she at one point.
Dunno how to put a picture up here, so have sent via email.
Merlin
Mary Boren
Dec 8 07, 21:13
Thanks, Merlin -- what a find! Since the poem is in the public domain, I guess it's okay to post the handwritten copy from your book here. If not, I'm sure Lori will let us know.
Click on the thumbnail for full-sized image. Can anyone decipher the scratchouts?
Click to view attachment
heartsong7
Dec 8 07, 21:42
What a neat idea....to critique the works of a famous dead poet. Your critique of Frost's, "Stopping by....", tho tongue in cheek, would be right on if the poem had been written today.... (esp the comments on the use of 'queer' heh, heh)
I can't make out much of the handwritten page. His penmanship is as bad as my doc's.
I enjoyed the entire thread.
Thank you for starting it.
Sue
Hi Mary -
This is an awesome idea! And thank you for posting it. It has so many benefits for us, like sharpening our skills in critique, learning a bit about what makes the classics work and how poetry differs from then and now.
I am going to offer my critique but I have not read anyone elses critique so I can see what I think without direction of another's points and thoughts.
We should make this an exercise - thank you Mary!!!!
Hugs, Liz Hi Mr Frost and welcome to MM -
I found your offering to be quite multi-layered poem. Allowing readers to leave with variations of meaning and intent. I think this is done well, as it poses for each reader individually, a interpretation that reaches their own conclusions.
The title, I thought, might do well with some reconsideration. Perhaps something that indicates a journey or allows the core subject to be specified. Because the snowy evening is detailed within the poem, it isn't needed within the title. I liked the idea of passing through the woods and taking in the loveliness of first snow fall (or freshly falling snow) - a cleansing. What I thought would improve this was some weeding out of repetition of woods. Also what might improve this is more active word choices.
Some in stanza thoughts and suggestions ...
With Respect, Liz
QUOTE
Whose woods these are I think I know.
His house is in the village though;
He will not see me stopping here
To watch his woods fill up with snow.
The opening four lines, set the mood for me. I immediately get the impression that the narrator feels saddened by the idea that the owner of the woods cannot share in the narrators wonder of freshly falling snow covering the woods. The narrator is lured to stop and take notice to nature's beautiful change in scene and life -
I perfer caps only on lines that begin a new sentence, as it makes it easier to adjust my own natural pauses and full stops ... In L1 I would end in a comma and come to a full stop in L2 -
I am torn in L2 with the deeper meaning of the house being in the village - in other words, a part of me would like to see ' he lives within the village though' the use of 'within' would possibly have a nice bounce off of without a farmhouse in L6. (or something in line with focusing on the fact that the owner of the woods does not live near by) however - there is a part of me that believes the specification of the 'house' being in the village, is to emphasize that there is no house in the woods, also enhanced by 'no farmhouse' in L6. Both give enhance the aloneness and solitude for the narrator- the scene as it is untouched and pure because no one is near to taint natures newness. So, again, this is a just a though and there are some reasons for both considerations.
QUOTE
My little horse must think it queer
To stop without a farmhouse near
Between the woods and frozen lake
The darkest evening of the year.
He gives his harness bells a shake
To ask if there is some mistake.
L7, is a perfect place to substitute one of those 'woods' with something more detailed ... perhaps 'weald' might be a good consideration. in L8, perhaps ... 'this darkest evening of the year. Again, the descriptions are so crisp and powerful - that I find they come to life for me. I feel chill in the air, the quiet of the darkness, the bells breaking the silence and the mood tones are powerful.
QUOTE
The only other sound's the sweep
Of easy wind and downy flake.
The woods are lovely, dark and deep.
But I have promises to keep,
And miles to go before I sleep,
And miles to go before I sleep.
Robert Frost, 1922
I would like to see 'these woods are lovely, dark and deep,'
but I have promises to keep -
and miles to go before I sleep,
and miles to go before I sleep ..
The repeat of this final line, emphasizes that the narrator has a long way to travel and much to do before rest - before his tasks are done.
I adore this poem for many of the simplistic tools used. A part of me did want to suggest switching the first 4lines with ... 'My little horse ...'
Example:
My little horse must think it queer
to stop without a farmhouse near,
between the weald and frozen lake
the darkest evening of the year.
He gives his harness bells a shake
to ask if there is some mistake.
The only other sound's the sweep
of easy wind and downy flake.
Whose woods these are I think I know,
he lives within the village though,
and cannot see me stopping here,
to watch his woods fill up with snow.
The woods are lovely, dark and deep,
but I have promises to keep,
And miles to go before I sleep,
And miles to go before I sleep
Hugs, Liz
Cleo_Serapis
Dec 9 07, 09:29
Mary, what a fab idea! I'm glad my response poem inspired you to start this tile, thank you!
If I were critiquing Frost's poem, the first thing I would mention to Bob is 'Why the caps on every line?' (as y'all know that's a PP item for me (punctuation police)
, LOL! Secondly, I would suggest 4-line stanzas so as not to 'crowd' the read so much.
Let' see:
Whose woods these are I think I know.
*Inversion - perhaps 'are these' would sound more in line with the question?His house is in the village though;
He will not see me stopping here
to watch his woods fill up with snow.
*Lovely imagery in these first 4 lines. This sets a tone of a journey in winter to someone (who we do not yet know and can fill that in in our own minds) of authority's home. His woods hints at God but it could easily be a land owner of those woods. I like this style of writing to leave it open to interpretation.My little horse must think it queer
to stop without a farmhouse near
*How would the MC know what his horse is thinking (not believable).between the woods and frozen lake
the darkest evening of the year.
*Beautiful!He gives his harness bells a shake
to ask if there is some mistake.
*What mistake - this is unclear. First we learn a journey is underway through snowy woods at night. Then we are introduced to the horse's thoughts (or what the narrator thinks the horse is thinking) of finding it odd/queer as to why they do not stop, although we do not know WHY they cannot stop. This is clever, as again it leaves the interpretation open to the reader to 'fill in the blanks' to make the story fit. In my own mind, I envison this a journey of death and rebirth - there's no stopping once the path has been journeyed - no turning back so to speak. Bob makes it seem as though the narrator/MC has a 'choice' in the matter and is going to his destination freely and knowingly. It could also simply be a journey 'home', perhaps to the MC's father's home?The only other sound's the sweep
of easy wind and downy flake.
*Nice - a still night that we can envision falling snow, and a calmness in the air. This further leads me to believe the 'journey' is one taken either freely or with an acceptance of fate.The woods are lovely, dark and deep.
*Here I would not endstop this line.But I have promises to keep,
*Ah, ding ding! A promise made to the father/Him that cannot be broken - nice tie-in (although still quite mysterious!and miles to go before I sleep,
and miles to go before I sleep.
*The repeat works well for me to further leave the impression in my mind that this journey is not a quick one to travel. "sleep" could mean two things - literally or in death here, IMO.I'm in a bit of a craze this morning trying to organize my holiday lists/gift orders and wrapping already purchased items and mailings - but will be popping in on and off today.
I have an idea based on the volleys that Eric, Sue, Fran and a few others do which is so enjoyable:
How about creating a new poem using Frost's stanza and meter format from 'Stopping by Woods...' above and using his same ending line words, but create a completely different poem from it? In other words the poem must be iambic (or close to it tetrameter) with each line ending with:
know, though, here, snow, queer, near, lake, year, shake, mistake, sweep, flake, deep, keep, sleep, sleep ??
Shall I start a new tile here in Karnak?
~Cleo
Hi all,
I've nothing to add except to say reading various inputs is interesting. Rewriting in emulation to me is akin to Monday morning quarterbacking to win the lost game. It is much like reviewing famous battles toward a more efficient win. To write in a dead poet's style is living in an historical moment. How truely can today's biases be incorporated into older era practices? Should we center an emulated poem if the original is centered?
I am prone to remember what has been said about avid followers destroying fabric of the original leader(s).
Don
About the handwritten page...
The page does not have the first verse.
These are my personal observations and conclusions, not to be taken as gospel. I did 2 more scans, particularly of the verses in question. Those I enlarged to the point of distortion, to come up with these conclusions.
Interestingly, other critics here have noted a lack of verses. Frost’s handwritten page shows white-space separation, as I have generally found in other books. In the book “The Poetry of Robert Frost”, edited by Edward Connery Lathem, last © 1967, containing all RF's 11 books, “Stopping…” is printed in quatrains, which is how I am familiar with it.
RF seemed to be unsatisfied with the first line, which he first had as “The horses [something] think it queer”, and something is a 2-syllable word like “appear”, but not appear, more like “may not”. He then began a new line with “To” but didn’t like that, rewriting it to “The straining horses think it queer” which he struck and tweaked to “The little horse must think it queer”.
“Between a forest and a lake” was the original wording.
The 2nd verse is pretty straight forward, with “full (fall?) of flake” ending the line. The horse(s) change gender, however, giving more credence to a few xmas drinks! A possibility is that he had a team of mare & gelding, and one of those decided to take a shake.
The last line struck out is the most difficult to decipher. It looks like the original (bottom strike-out) was, with the next, “That bid me give the reins a shake || And miles to go before I sleep”. That was then revised to “That bid me on, as there are miles || And miles …” He struck that too.
The 2nd line repetition looks too much as an addition, considering the different shaped letters. There follows the footnote “74” for which I have no explanation.
Dear Merlin,
Thanks for the excellent sluething of RF's handwritten page. Whew! That is an emmense undertaking. I had difficulty reading his script (period)
Don
Cleo_Serapis
Dec 9 07, 14:09
It really IS interesting Eric.
I wonder... does each critter in this thread interpret the poem's meaning the same way? Is it supposed to be about impending death or just literally, a journey home?
Shall I post a new thread on the challenge I put forth?
~Cleo
Cleo_Serapis
Dec 9 07, 14:17
Here's a link to a final copy:
Hi Cleo,
No doubt interpretations differ and multiple are likely. I usually take the surface skim of a long day of a working country doctor taking a break absorbing natural beauty.
Listening to RF reading --especially the last line--invokes considerable deviations from expectations.
He emphasizes with great gravity that he does have many miles to go.
Don
QUOTE
I wonder... does each critter in this thread interpret the poem's meaning the same way?
My answer here would be that -
No two critters interpret it the same way.
QUOTE
Is it supposed to be about impending death or just literally, a journey home?
Who knows? Even if RF were still around, he wouldn't say, much like the meaning of the 2 trails in the woods. There is much thought given to that meaning too. Although he gave an answer there, many don't accept it and look for deeper meaning.
Example - - here is a site where a number of learned persons have given thoughts to RF's writings...
HERE . Each tosses a different perspective into the ring, but the actual answer remains with RF.
While I make no pretenses or compare myself to anyone, I will tell of my situation, where my work was thoroughly digested and analyzed for a British poetry publication. The fellow does this regularly and is quite knowledgeable. He spent much time figuring out what I was writing about and giving me high praise in the process, but I gotta say, he was miles and miles off the mark (reality). His interpretation of what I had written wasn't even in the ballpark, although his analysis made much sense and was plausible.
Perhaps the erudites look at RF in the same way, seeking greater meaning in a simple thing. The apple picking, for example, has certain experts suggesting RF was really a closet gay, and the actual meaning of the ladder leaning on the apple tree was ... well, you can imagine what with the apple tree bearing fruit. Now, I happen to carry a 20 ft extension ladder on my shop van, if anyone wants to draw a conclusion here.
In my own opinion, there is nothing else to be drawn from "Stopping..." other than he was out with his team & sleigh, and had reason to stop.
There tis
Merlin
Quick response to Merlin,
Yup!
Don
jgdittier
Dec 10 07, 09:37
Dear Mary and All,
My quest has been for over 5 years now to foster appreciation for the bards and the poetic practices of yore.
Just now has come an opportunity to do so.
We've all enjoyed the tongue-in-cheek suggestions regarding Mr.Frost's deviances from modern poetic STYLE. We've welcomed Mr. Frost's entrance into our group but with mock dudgeon suggested he "get with it". We've
not focussed on his simple, beautiful, memorable poem which is so easily committed to memory and recited. Rather, we've suggested that the modern
style is the right style and that the series of no-nos we've attributed to his poem would actually improve his effort.
Earlier in the comments above appears the quote, "How truly can today's biases be incorporated into old era practices?" Think about it. Were his poem written today, how would it be marked by the red-pencil wielding university professor?
Can we hold in high regard an art form of the past and still accept the rightness of that of the current age?
If Byron and Keats and Wordsworth and Longfellow are now passe, then in the music field should we similarly demean Beethoven, Mozart, Tchaikovski? Is Rembrandt's style to be supplanted by the smear now called modern art?
Who amongst us understands where all the modern R&M no-nos came from or why they were adopted? Do they have greater status than etiquette?
The sundial was invented prior to 1500 B.C. The number four on the face was IIII, not IV. Clocks ever since which use such numerals still exhibit the IIII.
Maybe change should come only with improvement!
Cheers, Ron jgd
It is good to know the superstitions of the past and present to know which is which and shoulders upon which we stand to view fresh horizons oftentimes seen before. The hourglass meters sand, but humans evaluate the pile.
Don
Mary Boren
Dec 10 07, 19:19
Great responses, everybody. I'd say we've fairly thoroughly dissected it from every direction, wouldn't you?
Thanks for the graphic,
Lori. Like Merlin, I'm a little confused about photo uploads. In Firefox, mine shows as a thumbnail, but in MSIE it only shows as a link. Yours shows as a full-size pic within the message pane. 'Splain that, if you will.
Interesting observations,
Merlin. I agree with you about creating meaning where none may be intended, and I see that as the beauty of poetry. It's like the bible, which I am learning to interpret metaphysically, not literally. There are passages that I've been exposed to all my life, and no two times have they said exactly the same thing to me. Depends on where I am on the journey. I think a poet can stumble into writing something profound that he didn't even know he knew, and never even know he did it. (Or she.) If I should be so lucky as to ever write a few lines that could impact lots of folks in different ways across time, I'd be in hog heaven.
Golly,
Ron, I hope you didn't seriously think I was expressing a lack of appreciation for the simple elegance of Mr. Frost's poem. It is a true classic.
QUOTE
My quest has been for over 5 years now to foster appreciation for the bards and the poetic practices of yore.
And we share at least half of that vision. Yay for all areas of agreement. The poetic practices of yore were hunky-dory for their day, but I wouldn't advocate adhering to them in this century any more than I would dress in Renaissance clothing on a weekday. Nothing wrong with history -- the
SCA does a fine (and fun) job of honoring an era -- but where do you draw the line with your proposal? Ever tried to read Chaucer?
QUOTE
Maybe change should come only with improvement!
Ah, but change does come, regardless of opposition to it. Language is alive and constantly evolving. Who decides what constitutes improvement? Do I think Frost's poem would be better based on my critique? No. It has already earned its appropriate place in history and in the hearts of the public, and there's no room whatsoever for improvement there.
It was a fun exercise, guaranteed not to offend or discourage the poet.
Thanks again.
Mary
AMETHYST
Dec 10 07, 21:06
My interpretation is split in 3 separate types of interpretations - each from a different point in my life ...
The first, early on when I first read this and fell in love with it and it's mezmerizing depth -
I imagined the narrator as Santa Clause; taking this implication through certain word choices that Robert made, like 'queer' - 'harness bells a shake' - 'the darkest evening of the year' and that he has promises to keep, and miles to go before he sleeps. The repeat of this final line expresses that there is a very long and weary task ahead... I believed that Robert Frost was writing about a momentary rest in his evenings travels to go from house to house, farmhouse to farmhouse - but had to stop in the loveliness of the woods. Also, L3, makes me feel that 'he should not be seen' that he felt safe to know that no one would see him during his moment of peaceful retrospect. The idea of the horse (he only refers to one horse) as finding it odd (queer) or strange to make a stop where there is no house to lure him to or no farmhouse, if it was in the Christmas spirit, then this makes good sense. As well as the ending ...'promises to keep' and miles to go before I sleep' ...
As I read this in a more mature insightful way, I think of the narrator as a man making his way through his life, and makes his way through these untainted woods. The narrator is saddened by the idea that the owner of these woods is not there to see this sight of the glistening lake, the flurrying snow drifting along the wings of the wind and the silence, only disrupted by the cruching of snow beneath the horses hooves. The horse, his lone companion, seems to me to be his dearest friend - he relates his expressions and understands that this is out of the norm for the narrator to stop and rest in a place so desolate. There is an implication of death here, a tiredness and yet, the narrator feels he has much depending on him and this keeps him going onward, knowing that there is still much to do in his life before he takes his final rest.
As I read my own interpretations I have a funny feeling that there is more validity in the Christmas/Santa Clause impressions than I originally gave credit to.
Hugs, Liz
jgdittier
Dec 27 07, 17:18
Dear Nada and All,
I expect this episode has run its course and what I write here may never be read by anyone!
Nonetheless, I must make this effort to indicate my appreciation for all who latched on to Frost's most popular verse, initiated by Nada.
My quest is to promote the appreciation for the poets and poetry of yore.
In that language has changed over the years and poetry with it, for me does not justify our apparent willingness to venerate what once was.
Nada has made it abundently clear how much emphasis has been placed on the modern style which I believe is at the expense of our glorious poetic heritage. It seems to me that all the forces in poetry have focussed so thoroughly on the modern style with all its new encumbrances now imposed on the style of yore, that we'll lose that heritage.
Read Longfellow's "The Day Is Done", with all its modern-day no-nos
and ask does it still justify being held in high esteem and taught in our
educational facilities? How, who, why, have we focussed on so many ways to criticize the style of yore?
That's my thought.
I greatly thank Nada as she has brought to light a gem from our past and
made us think how much it can be criticized now, less than 100 years since it was written. Are Mozart and Beethoven next?
Cheers, Ron jgd
Dear Ron,
Anyone here, and I never read it !
As with styles of poetry, there are opinions on styles of poetry.
I simply cannot read some of the "greats" - although I can have them read to me.
Their language is archaic and quite often obscure, and they reference a body of knowledge (the "classics") which I simply do not know enough about. And further, am not willing to put in the time learning about to get the references. I had to do some of that at school, isthmus of Darien etc, and certainly then did not appreciate the "waste" of time, ie got far too little out of the exercise.
Now, having fallen into writing poetry in 1993, when I was 51 or so, I am more able to enjoy a few selected old-style poets, Blake, Frost, Vernon Scannell (whom I knew slightly).
In them thar days they also had to pad - reciting poetry was a popular self-entertainment activity, and shost succint pieces were simply not wanted. You may know I attempt to write that precise way myself, I try to bring clarity, rather than to display cleverness and obscurity.
Hence Frost and Blake !
But Wordsworth (how much a ream ?) or Keats ? Now Shakespeare I can live with, because he too was writing for clarity !
Just some of my ramblings, offering a personal, and probably opposed view to yours. Thanks for making me think !
Love
Alan
jgdittier
Dec 28 07, 08:15
Dear Alan,
I fully understand your position and in fact, agree with much of it.
My mumblings have, I believe, never been fully understood, as I.ve not gone into enough detail of provided examples.
Here at MM there are still a core of R&Mer. However, the requirements of modern R&M differ significantly from those of yore.
The poet of yore in order to expedite his writing, allowed himself some freedoms that now are scoffed at. He might use a significant word twice in a stanza, might invert a verb whilst retaining clarity, might elide a word or piar to maintain the beat, might prefer end rhyme stops over enjambment to support the flow, might attempt a rollicking cadence rather than reading monotone, might use many the-s and of-s as in "The Day Is Done"
rather than aim for terseness, might use filler words in maintaining the
cadence, might allow for the reader to assume what a pronoun might represent rather than feel obligated to build from the ground up with perfect clarity, might accept a word less specific to the case assuming the reader could properly interpret it, might use biblical pronouns solely for rhyming purposes, might put more effort into his poem and less to find a hook for the title, etc.
As I read critiques of R&M poetry written here at MM, I constantly wonder why all these constraints. An inverted verb is treated as if it deserved capital punishment even though the meaning is clear. Furthermore, if it were used to form a rhyme, it would be criticized as being rhyme-driven, just another constraint now placed upon the brow of R&Mers.
Why has the modern style demeaned all the ploys once used in our past, when poetry was memorable, and at the same time adopted a new style without any restrictions?
Please do read "The Day Is Done". Rate it against modern practices.
I suspect we have much in common. It's just that we're never exposed to
the thoughts above.
I hope to hear your further thoughts.
Cheers, ron
Dear Ron,
The main reason I think that inversions and Biblical pronouns are jumped on is because they stick out like sore thumbs, and drag attention onto the mechanics of the words and sentences, thus reducing the impact of the essence, the communication.
One can of course write a whole piece deliberately with such mannerisms, which works because there nothing stands out - compared to what is around it.
Ditto with a word repeated too soon - one is immersed into the communication, then suffers a slap in the face as one is jolted back to the mechanicals. Or course, deliberate use and re-use to pound a word home for effect also negates the general rule of what I say.
Use a word 2x in short order, and it is an error - use it 3 x or 4x, and that is "for effect" !
Love
Alan
Dear Ron,
I have crited 8 lines of that poem, mostly by using adverbs to replace too many "the", thus adding either alliteration, extra meaning, or perhaps both. In no way do I claim mine is better than his, but it is different.
I have to confess that on rereading just now, must of what I disliked in the original is now gone. He is perhaps a prime example of writing for endless recitation ?
OUR day is done, A DRAB darkness
Falls from the wings of Night,
As a feather is wafted downward
From an eagle in his flight.
I see WAN lights of A village
Gleam through the rain and the mist,
A feeling of sadness OVERcomes me
That my soul cannot resist:
I have just counted HWL's sylls per line, they are all over the place - 6, 10, 7, 8 etc. I never saw this before, and have to confess I do NOT rate the poem, even if the content/message has merit.
As a matter of curiosity, what do you think of my crit lines ?
Love
Alan
Cleo_Serapis
Dec 28 07, 11:58
This is an enjoyable diversion, before I get myself psyched up (yeah, that's it
) to clean the house now.
I have not read many of the poets you mention Ron, and cannot for the life of me understand Shakespeare - all those doths, thees, wherefortoo's etc. get me wacked.
One needs a dictionary from those centuries to figure it out, LOL!
Oh where art thou, ye diction, lest thee wrap thy fingers and grasp thy language around thee?Ah well, one must always remember, to each his own (that goes for opinions and critters, thankfully, we all have unique perspectives, else literary works would be a bore!
Cheers
~Cleo
jgdittier
Dec 29 07, 10:57
Dear Alan,
I'm addicted to discussions re poetry and so I hope you've the time to read all that probably will follow!
I response to your comments re inversions and Biblical pronouns, it probably is true that they stick out like sore thumbs when immersed in a poem of the modern style.
What about all those other new no-no-s that I cited? In the modern style I believe all stick out similarly and that means that the style of yore is no longer appreciated.
It is my fear that that the modern urge to put constraints on R&M will destroy it.
The repeat of a word in the same vicinity I believe is another no-no that needen't be. I've written some accentual verse where in order to achieve the musical (some call it sing-song) element I have tried to make all the unaccentuated syllables ones and the accentuated ones, fours. Thus, I've actually deleted adjectives to be replaced with "the".
If you've ever attended a horse race with pari-mutual betting, you'll see that every betting possibility is covered with someone's bet. Thus we know that diversity reigns.
I believe it reigns also in poetry except that these no-no rules are accepted almost totally. I liken it to the hand that holds the fork when eating. In one part of the world it's different from the other, then again, some use chopsticks. If the no-no-s of poetry are currently accepted worldwide, then I'll resort to the temporal thought.
I am most different from the style of the times in that I care much more about the structure of verse than the message it carries. Perhaps that's the rub!
Poetry now places all the importance on message.
It therefore interests me that in adopting the no-no-s the message advocate pays so much attention to form. Then there's me and my love of "The Day Is Done".
Here I'm responding greatly to the message, but as I assume it's in accentual verse,
I see it as beautifully simple and direct and musical as I read it.
For me, the 24 "the"-s and 15 "and"-s add to the glorious simplicity of the piece. Note line 14, which I believe tells the reader he's deliberately appealing to our
most basic emotions, devoid of anything fancy.
As to our crit lines, it would be unfair of me to crit them in that I'm so taken by Longfellow. I'm speculating though, that had I never read the "DID", I'd find too little music in your version. I don't make terseness a goal in the verse I write or the poetry I read.
Alan, you and I are far apart in our views in this field, but if this field were a horse track, our having placed different wagers would make neither of us less fans of racing.
Perhaps it all comes down to whether there is a difference between verse and poetry!
Nada Lott has just brightened this forum with thoughts about Frost's "Stopping..."
Would someone here like to critique "DID" or even better, rewrite it to modern standards?
Cheers, Ron jgd
QUOTE (jgdittier @ Dec 29 07, 15:57 )
Dear Alan,
I'm addicted to discussions re poetry and so I hope you've the time to read all that probably will follow!
I response to your comments re inversions and Biblical pronouns, it probably is true that they stick out like sore thumbs when immersed in a poem of the modern style.
What about all those other new no-no-s that I cited? In the modern style I believe all stick out similarly and that means that the style of yore is no longer appreciated.
-- I used those 2 as examples - but nowhere would I claim that ALL old-style is wrong. Apart from most of what I know is called slam poetry, there are no wrongs ! As long as the mechanics lead the reader towards the essence of the communication, which is the definition of "art" (Precisely it is : Art is the quality of communication) then the issuer of that comunication will have achieved his objective.
It is my fear that that the modern urge to put constraints on R&M will destroy it.
The repeat of a word in the same vicinity I believe is another no-no that needen't be. I've written some accentual verse where in order to achieve the musical (some call it sing-song) element I have tried to make all the unaccentuated syllables ones and the accentuated ones, fours. Thus, I've actually deleted adjectives to be replaced with "the".
-- Ron, you are indeed a dedicated experimenter, and I thank you for that. Though it is not my path. I write what I feel, and then attempt to give it some form (or indeed LACK of form), to impinge on my reader. I have written old-style, lots in "voices" such as hick or cockney, or agricultural oik, but in all cases my aim is getting the communication across. I have an American lady friend poet who is a lovely girl, but if I try and read anything of hers, I go scatty - I once re-positioned her line breaks to flow with the sense, at which point I could accept her message, and even she said she liked it, but I see it has had no impingement on her style, so I have just stopped reading her stuff. If one is constantly having to watch for meaning-breaks which usually do NOT coincide with line ends, one is again stuck in the mechanics, rather than allowing the communications to flow. I am aware of enjambment of course, which makaes a nice break with breaks, if well done !
If you've ever attended a horse race with pari-mutual betting, you'll see that every betting possibility is covered with someone's bet. Thus we know that diversity reigns.
I believe it reigns also in poetry except that these no-no rules are accepted almost totally. I liken it to the hand that holds the fork when eating. In one part of the world it's different from the other, then again, some use chopsticks. If the no-no-s of poetry are currently accepted worldwide, then I'll resort to the temporal thought.
-- In the Philippines my wife took me to some friends, who were I later learned ashamed to be eating with their fingers in front of a westerner - Ha, I thought of taking them to any one of 1,000,,001 McDonalds all over the west, where the fork is non-existant. Re poetry, my only rule - did the meaning get across. I like that def of poetry - the best words, in their best order. All the rest is rules and violations of rules, and I really don't give a "Gone with the Wind" !
I am most different from the style of the times in that I care much more about the structure of verse than the message it carries. Perhaps that's the rub!
-- Aha, there is the give-away - we are diametrically opposite ! Not that either of us is more. or less, valid. IF I am writing a FORM, THEN I care about tthe rules of that form, otherwise not. The fact that pedants (the Poetry Police) are as active here as in political "correctness" is another matter, that seems to be human nature : I KNOW what MY faults are, so I'm going to make DAMN SURE you don't suffer from them.
On UK blogs a new word was invented recently for the officious types, politicians and bureaucrats who get off on constant meddling : Bansturbators. We got 'em in poetry too, though I hasten to add, NONE amongst the august company we keep on MM !
Poetry now places all the importance on message.
It therefore interests me that in adopting the no-no-s the message advocate pays so much attention to form. Then there's me and my love of "The Day Is Done".
Here I'm responding greatly to the message, but as I assume it's in accentual verse,
I see it as beautifully simple and direct and musical as I read it.
For me, the 24 "the"-s and 15 "and"-s add to the glorious simplicity of the piece. Note line 14, which I believe tells the reader he's deliberately appealing to our
most basic emotions, devoid of anything fancy.
As to our crit lines, it would be unfair of me to crit them in that I'm so taken by Longfellow. I'm speculating though, that had I never read the "DID", I'd find too little music in your version. I don't make terseness a goal in the verse I write or the poetry I read.
Alan, you and I are far apart in our views in this field, but if this field were a horse track, our having placed different wagers would make neither of us less fans of racing.
Perhaps it all comes down to whether there is a difference between verse and poetry!
-- Off the top of my head, I'd say verse plods and poetry sings ?
Nada Lott has just brightened this forum with thoughts about Frost's "Stopping..."
Would someone here like to critique "DID" or even better, rewrite it to modern standards?
Cheers, Ron jgd
Love
Alan
PS ... and finally, how the hell do others put those lovely boxes around the quoted text ?
Dear jgd, et al,
I also have a nagging feeling that the extra load being added to modern R&Mers is intended to kill R&M. I seriously doubt the success of this attack. Interests swing and sway, and a each style or two will probably survive in someones heart.
First line in RF's Stopping is an inversion to be avoided in the modern scheme, but works perfectly well doesn't it? Since my poetry exposure is primarily the democratic Internet, flaws and rotten habits probably abound. It is akin to teaching myself golf. So many bad habits are ingrained that becoming good is beyond consideration.
I prefer R&M simply because all my working lifes' philosophy has been to learn how to do the difficult to make the easy easier. I also believe many poems should be judged on their form rather than meaning(s), which is more difficult to achieve with FV.
We may debate personal differences forever, but the bottom line is I appreciate your views and skills despite my inability to match and checkmate.
Don
Dear Don,
I must protest at your sour view of your own abilities ! What is wrong with "self-taught" ? I was taught poetry at school, which lead straight to 34 years of absolutely NO interest in the subject. So I too am self-taught, and proud of it. I was lucky to find my voice, and have benefitted greatly from the change from grumpy mutterer on the side-lines to slightly less grumpy poet in the main stream !
I think you are right about R & M - of course it will survive. The cadences and rhymes are one of the main attributes of a communication and helping it to get across effectively.
Love
Alan
Oops, I did not intend sour. I've mapped the limits of my flat earth and know that monsters reside beyond. Being self-taught is only sometimes bad. Other than becoming a mediocre golfer, I taught myself morse code and in the process acquired sufficent bad habits to bar me from high speed communication. Since then, I automatically assume some detrimental habits are formed by self-teaching. In the case of poetry, mine is almost one-hundred percent self-taught and I am extremely happy with the result todate. Actually, my teachers are a variety of proficient people on the Internet. I also like the availability of the classics on the Web.
No doubt in my mind that academic instruction can be more detrimental than forming one's own views. Think, think, think and try, try, try.
I am extremely glad you have converted from a grumpy side-liner. I thoroughly enjoy your inputs and ninety-nne percent of your poetry. Sometimes the ball comes across the plate too fast for my old eyes to follow. Chances are my eye was on a cheerleader at the time.
Don
jgdittier
Dec 29 07, 16:12
Dear All,
It looks to me that this thread has been one of the most successful I've experienced in my time on the net.
We've exchanged our views, explored the limits, stayed friends.
I think verse/poetry has benefitted.
Cheers, Ron jgd
Dear Don & Ron,
(Reminds me of a song ....)
Obviously sour was the wrong word, but I did not want to let lie what I thought was self-abasement !
I'm very pleased you like 99 % of my stuff, I was about to erupt and complain about the other 1 % when I got to your remark about the cheerleader - I can happily admit that ANY cheerleader would be easier on the eye than me !
I do enjoy your efforts as well, tho for my taste not every work benefits from centered text !
Ron, this has been good, though I wonder where many other voices were ? Did the holidays get in their way when accessing time for MM ?
Love
Alan
Dear Alan,
You have me confused with someone symetrical. I seldom center text.
Turn your head away from the cheerleaders.
Hopefully you are correct that the holidays have diminished additional fruit from MM tree.
Don
Here you will find
Henry Austin Dobson and his thoughts on poetry. He lived 1840 to 1921.
If you really wish to delve deep – go to this site, there’s no end.
CLICK – RPO. A lot of reading material, more than the holidays can handle.
Merlin
jgdittier
Jan 8 08, 09:05
Dear Merlin and All,
I've read Dobson (at your suggestion) and found a goldmine of poetic thought in the other link. Thank you for hours of happy hunting!
Although our styles differ, I believe we have almost equal interest in the poetic
world. I'm eager to read your book as I believe you'll be fair in your assessments and accurate in your interpretations.
Cheers, Ron jgd
Mary Boren
Jan 10 08, 17:01
I'm sorry, gentlemen, I didn't realize the discussion was still going on here. It will take me a while to absorb all the reading, but on first scan I'm extremely gratified that my little experiment led to such thoughtful responses.
Mary