I've put together a few thoughts and links about
haiku for study and discussion....

The traditional image of haiku based on 5-7-5 syllables
is of course true in Japan. But times have changed,
especially with the internet, and haiku now encompasses
a global community.

A glance at the World Haiku Review (editor Susumu
Takiguchi) indicates how this community is evolving.
Skimming down the left column on link below, under
International Languages, WHR offers several languages
besides Japanese and English:

http://www.worldhaikureview.org/5-1/contents.shtml

Besides having the pattern of each language to deal
with, when translating these haiku into Japanese, a new
problem arises -- one English/Spanish/French syllable can
become two or three in Japanese.
This is one reason why fewer than 17 syllables in English
is the accepted pattern in most Western haiku publications
today.

However, the 5-7-5 pattern is still followed by some, with
excellent results. Here is a link to prize-winning haiku in
such a contest held in 2000, including comments from the
judge, Isamu Hashimoto:

http://www.youngleaves.org/activities/2000contest.htm

(I'm guessing that Michael Dylan Welch's magnolia haiku has
a typo, and "cool" is meant to be on line 3)

As mentioned in the judge's comments, the Mainichi Daily News
has a monthly Haiku Column -- it also sponsors an international
contest each year.

http://mdn.mainichi-msn.co.jp/entertainmen...aiku/index.html

In the 10th annual (2006) contest, one of the judges offered
this comment:

"It seems that Japanese haiku have eventually spread widely
around the various countries in America and Europe. It is a shame
that the entries in English and French have come to resemble the
works of Japanese. They are small, prim and affectedly elegant. I
would like to see short poems that make use of the fact that they
are works in foreign languages and more boldly and freely break
through the borders of Japanese ideas and haiku."


Getting back to WHR, in 2001 the ezine began a series of Hibiscus
School lessons by Ferris Gilli. Here is one about juxtapostion --
"The Space Between":

http://www.worldhaikureview.org/2-2/whcsch...lessonwjf.shtml

If you click on "Back" at the bottom of the page, you'll find
another good article on "Clutter and Credibility - Trust between
Reader and Poet".

Here is a link to the beginning Hibiscus lessons (3 pages):

http://www.worldhaikureview.org/1-1/hibiscus1a.shtml

And another excellent topic here, on verbless haiku:

http://www.worldhaikureview.org/1-3/whcsch...lesshaiku.shtml

Again, at the bottom, you'll find links to others...
"Regarding Poetry: the Shape of the Song" by Peggy Willis Lyles,
and "Seasoning Your Haiku" by Ferris.

As a final note, when considering the problems of translation, here
is a delightful page about Basho's famous frog:

http://haikutopics.blogspot.com/2006/06/sound-of-water.html

No wonder the subject of haiku has resulted in so many varying
opinions over the years!


Additional study links:

Jane Reichhold's site:
http://www.ahapoetry.com/haiku.htm

"In the moonlight a worm...":
http://www.haiku.insouthsea.co.uk/

The Haiku Habit:
http://www.haikuhabit.com/index.htm

Mike Rehling has compiled many links here:
http://www.haikuhut.com/Haiku%20Definition.htm


I hope you enjoy the journey!


Lary

P.S. Another article I just discovered, by Keiko Imaoka,
on Jane Reichhold's site (I feel that when a Japanese
poet explains about the syllables, it holds even more
weight!):

http://www.ahapoetry.com/keirule.htm


.

Hey Lary -- this is great stuff. I haven't written a haiku for a while. I'm off to bed now (1am in UK) but will be back tomorrow to read this more thoroughly.

Thanks Snow

Hey Lary,

Thanks so much for posting this one. I will be coming back to this tile often, trying my hand at haiku and seeing what you masters have to say about my feeble attempts....

You rock!

~Cleo

Wow Lary, this looks great! Concise yet comprehensive. What a big wide world of haiku there is here! You have a much wider grasp of this world than I do; I haven't read some of these important articles. I'm especially excited about the one re writing in our own languages and breaking through the borders of Japanese. Yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay!

There's so much good stuff here I may never get to bed.

Thanks, Lary.

Snow, Cleo and Kathy...
thank you very much, and I do
hope you'll enjoy exploring the sites!

Perhaps I may add another link here...
for simple enjoyment, I invite you to visit
"a procession of ripples" (Kathy's in it).

It's an anthology I compiled last autumn.
You might like to brew a cup of tea, put on some
soft music, and relax...

http://laryalee.users.sunwave.net/ripples.htm



Lary

Oh Lary,

I just came back from reading in A Procession of Ripples. I was left with a gapping mouth after reading several of them, some are like snapshots of some universal secret captured in words. Amazing. Although I only got up to Sunlight, because Laurens wants pancakes! LOL But I will return later on to finish those off... and read the other links. I am going to try my hand at another Haiku, I remember creating one once and I think you helped me on it. I have to check...

Ah yes, The Haiku Thread at Poetry 911 - Haiku I Know Dave put his heart and soul into that thread. He would also enjoy this as well. The links and information and the opportunity to practice and creat haiku is something he thrives on. He is quite good at them as well.

You had written some remarkable Haiku there as well. I am not sure if you have them, but if not, they are still there... Dave salavaged the thread through his MS File. and reposted every post by hand. :)



Hugs, Liz

I've made it through 'winter chills'. The Haiku's are great! I think my favorite so far is

August twilight
one wildflower dying
on another one in bloom

Ion Codrescu

I'm confused though. I was taught that Haiku was two perspectives of one picture and I don't see that in some of the ones I've read.

Cathy

Hi Liz, I'm so glad you're enjoying Ripples!
And I had forgotten all about Poetry 911...
such a long time ago! Thanks very much
for the link!


Hi Cathy,
there may well be some poets who lean toward
that theory, but none among the haiku community
that I'm familiar with.
This link on juxtaposition might explain it:

http://www.worldhaikureview.org/2-2/whcsch...lessonwjf.shtml


Lary

Thanks for posting that link Lary! I'm going to reread it but I think I get the idea. This was one of my earlier attempts... is it or isn't it? LOL


whispering silence
graceful as cascading silk
winter drifts earthward

Cathy

Hi Cathy...
what lovely images --
fragile beauty and delicate sounds!

Ok, a couple of thoughts...
Haiku tends to avoid simile and metaphor...
instead, relying on images that allow the
reader to make her/his own connection.

Also, "whispering silence" and "winter drifts"
feel a bit too abstract and poetic for haiku --
concrete visuals are encouraged.
(And realism: if there are whispers, can
there be silence?)

To play a little, what if it's reworded so the
silk could possibly refer to actual fabric:

cascading silk...
the silence of snow
drifting earthward

Does this open the door to the hint of other
images, other meanings?

Now it's probably not at all what you had in mind...
it's just an example!



Lary

What a wonderful suggestion, Lary! Now it is a haiku.

This is soooo very different from what I thought! LOL

I do like what you did with mine. It's the same idea I had, just worded differently. Actually I think your suggestion gives it clarity that it didn't have before. Hmmm... I may have to give this another shot!

Cathy

Okay, what about...

pearl in an oyster;
protected within your heart
is the gem of love

Cathy

Hi Cathy,
my apologies for my slow response...
I had a busy weekend!

Your pearl is a lovely image!
However, it seems to be telling me everything...
in haiku, what is unsaid is as important as what
is said.
Thinking of someone you love while gazing at
a pearl in an oyster is a beautiful thought.
How could you show this, rather than
tell us?
Also, haiku stresses the moment of now...lines
2 and 3 feel more like a general comment?


pearl in an oyster --
the touch of his hand
on my shoulder

pearl in an oyster --
the lingering scent
of his aftershave

Does something like this let the reader sense love?

Or perhaps that gem of love relates to a child...

pearl in an oyster --
her small hand
clasping mine

Here's a winning haiku where love is shown, rather than told:

http://www.theheronsnest.com/haiku/0804q22...n_issue.c1.html

And there are more hints among the topics in the links in my original post...



Lary

That's a wonderful reply, Lary. You are teaching me also.

origamo

This is fantastic!

I have an idea in mind for haiku, but not sure how best to forumulate my thoughts?

My theme in mind is 'wind chimes' - my thought is how I love the sounds they make when the spring winds set them of in concert - it reminds me of times when I was young and the sounds would make me fall asleep or put me in such a contented state of mind.

Concerted wind chimes
ignite spring's reminscence
contented ovation

I know this is not very good - but I'd love feedback and will toss this theme out to you readers to create your own with this theme (and of course, help me along too).

~Cleo (in training)

Hi Cleo...
wind chimes is a wonderful theme!
And memories are difficult to work into
a haiku while still keeping to the present
moment.
If you think back again to those chimes...
how you felt, was the sun shining, was there
a scent of flowers, etc.?

I know that I put too many links up top, but
Jeanne Emrich's Haiku Habit is a great place
to start:

http://www.haikuhabit.com/index.htm


And it would be fun to have a place for all
short forms...haiku, tanka, cinquain, etc...
These long threads take so long to load --
it would be nice to be able to work on haiku
one at a time!



Lary

What a wonderful idea, Lary.

his fingers
on the keys --
windchimes

or

windchimes --
his fingers
on the keys

Hello Lary. Thanks for the newest link! I am reading the 'guidelines for edit' section now. Avoid cause and effect, Say what you mean, Provide only what is essential, Follow the order of perception, Engage the senses - and so much more! This is great!

So.... I am still on the wind chimes theme here:

whispered wind chimes
cleanse winter's lethargy --
peaceful concerto

Or maybe something like:
whispered wind chimes
cleanse winter's lethargy --
arousing inner-frolic *I think this one is cause and effect though :(

As to your query on short forms - do you mean creating a new critique forum specifically for short forms?
~Cleo

Hmm - or what about:


whispered wind chimes
His perennial songs --
simple pleasures

OR

whispered wind chimes
His perennial voice --
inner contentment

Hi Cleo,
one important aspect of haiku is the phrase/fragment...
This one has it -- lines 1 and 2 are the
phrase, and line 3 is the fragment:

whispered wind chimes
cleanse winter's lethargy --
peaceful concerto

But this version feels like three separate items:

whispered wind chimes
His perennial songs --
simple pleasures

(The dash after line 2 doesn't seem to belong?)
Oh wait a minute...are you changing "chimes" to
a verb here...very clever!

And also, simple descriptions are better.
While many other forms of poetry lend themselves
to elaborate adjectives, haiku is straightforward.
This is one impression I pick up from your words:

soft wind chimes --
the way his voice
would warm the air

Mind you, I'm not sure now, if by capitalizing "His",
you're referring to God?
I didn't pick that up at first...thinking it was the memory
of someone.

The main thing is that we want to simply show the moment,
allowing the reader to relate to that feeling...to perhaps catch a glimpse
of their own experience in the process.


I was fortunate to have some poems in the latest issue of
the Roadrunner Haiku Journal. This ezine stretches the envelope
and you'll find a wide variety of styles and topics:

http://www.poetrylives.com/roadrunner/pages72/haiku72.htm


Back to the topic of a forum for oriental and other short forms...
I do think it would be wonderful!
I don't believe these blend well with R&R...
and free verse is obviously its own genre.
If you did set up a forum for haiku, tanka, cinquains, etc.
besides providing a workshop for current members, I'm pretty sure
that some other poets would arrive here...


Lary

Thanks Lary - this is great!

Most of my works have more than one meaning hidden inside, LOL - it's just how I tend to see things. Sometimes it's good and sometimes, confusing to the audience!

I do like this one:
whispered wind chimes
cleanse winter's lethargy --
peaceful concerto
as I am trying to express the relaxation state of mind I am put in when I listen to those chimes and the soft breezes blow.

As for No.2:

whispered wind chimes
His perennial songs --
simple pleasures

YES- chimes as a verb and YES, the 'His' is a reference to God, not to a memory. In both versions, I am saying the same thing, buit with the second connotation of religion (and faith) blessing us with the 'simple pleasures'.

I look forward to reading the link you provided! Congrats!



I recall that Daniel (JustDaniel) had inquired about a separate forum for short forms some time ago, but at the time there were so few being posted, we said no but left the idea open. I don't think we'd have a problem moderating it, but let me check in with Liz, Cathy and Snow and reply back again. Perhaps if we do this, we could relax the "one poem per topic" rule since these forms are so very short, but post a maximum allowance of say three in any topic started?

Now, I'm a fuddy about forum names, I was talked into switching them around so the simplest description would be what?
Short Forms ? We'll need to think on that. I like the ancient civ themes, maybe something like: Hyakunin's Homilies (so it follows the same title as our R&M forum)?

This is neat!
~Cleo

I all ... Reading through this and I am excited... I remember when we had that discussion (lengthy at that) on opening a short formed critique forum. However, other than a handful of us ever dabbled in them, it wasn't really warranted - but now, there are several members learning and offering their knowledge and creating various short forms. I am all for it. It shouldn't be a problem to moderate at all.

I'll leave the naming up to you all ... And then maybe we can start focusing on the classroom setting, such as this thread is the perfect example of a learning classroom setting. Blessing to Lary for all her work in here. I've read a lot, just haven't gotten any inspiration for my own attempt yet! LOL

And thanks to Kathy for setting the seeds for this to be opened!


Big Hugs, Liz ...

**** excitedly closing the door and jumping

I'm excited too. A short form forum would be wonderful. Usually, on other boards, we restrict the posts to one a week, but a single post can include several poems.

Oriental poetry looks simple, but it is amazingly complex, involving an entire new way of seeing things. It affects the way we write other poetry, and even the way we look at life. Big claims for me to make, eh?

The reason I'm telling you this is to encourage you to tackle this wonderful Japanese way of writing poetry, and not to expect to get it right straight away. It's very different, and HARD.

Re a name, in the spirit of this board's theme. Japanese culture is even older than our own. Why not choose something from their (parrallel) time? ' The Shogun,' for instance? This would give the respect which is an integral part of all things Japanese.

Thanks to Lary in Canada too.

east wind --
sycamore seeds spin
onto loam

Hi Cleo,
I'm delighted you like the idea of a forum...
for effective workshopping, I'd still suggest a limit of
one poem per post...it can become quite difficult
to deal with two or three haiku at a time.

Believe it or not, the time spent on one set
of 3 little lines can be as much as that on
a 12-line poem, lol!

Namewise, I had to Google Hyakunin...

http://www.answers.com/topic/hyakunin-isshu

This seems to be rather specific...
perhaps a more general name would be better?



Liz, I'm delighted that you're interested, too...
there are some exercises available which often
help to stir inspiration, lol!
:)


Hi Kathy!
I love this...

east wind --
sycamore seeds spin
onto loam



Lary

I'm glad to see this excitement, both in you and our staff. I will most likely heed your suggestion of limiting the topics to ONE short form since that is the forum rule in the other poetry forums as it is - easier that way! YES, I definitely believe these forms can take as long or longer to visualize, contemplate and then write (that one I wrote took almost an hour and I still don't have it quite right yet).

Yes, I had two thoughts in mind re: forum naming - of course the generic name would be something like: Short Forms (is there something more specific I should add like 'Eastern' in front?) for Critique, followed by the MM nickname. I had two thoughts:
Shogun and Samurai with a tie-on to 'song/songs'.

Shogun's Song or Psalm (or that siding too much toward religion)?
Samurai's Song (or Strains)

Not as critical to nail down, but one note: AS a mod, i would be willing to step in as Mod for the new forum (and I think maybe Snow would) - but I must confess that I would only truly be able to act as a 'mod' in the forum - in other words, my role would be to 'moderate only', make sure the forum rules are being followed and take actions as normal if they're not - as I am no expert in these forms. LOL! We'd look to the experts to actually teach us through the workshopping process as we do in our other forums.


Cheers
~Cleo :

Cleo, I have noticed that a site reflects the qualities of its moderators. People seem to be comfortable here and they are interested in learning. Why? I think it is because you and your staff are supportive and friendly; you create the right environment for creative growth. No wonder poets are flocking here.

This willingness to work with others to achieve new opportunities is at work here, today. MM is willing to make a new place. I am so stoked!

Thank you.



PS *** Do you know what 'stoked' is? One stokes a fire, piling it with fuel. It is roaring with energy. The Australian slang dictionary defines it as 'very pleased.'

Hi Kathy

WOW, what a great endorsement for Lori, Liz and the mods.

A great happening over the last few months is that so many poets/writers are 'settling in' and turning MM into a poetic experience.

Regards,


John

Hi Lori,


A 'short form poetry forum' would be a step in the right direction. Some other poetry sites have forums,amongst others, dedicated Haiku. However, there are also other short poetry forms, such as, Limericks or would the new short form forum relate to Eastern countries, as, China and Japan.

The only Haiku poem I've posted at MM was this one.


a grey pardalote
blossom scented tears—headstone
winters drab sunlight


John

Hi Lary,


I've not forgotten you, your talent, complements your knowledge of Haiku.

Your thread has created a great interest amongst Admin and members and we have been well directed to some absorbing and creative web sites.

Thanks, mate, I appreciate the time you've put in, and the skillful help given explaining the finer points in haiku form poetry.




John

Hi John,
thank you for such lovely comments!
And I enjoyed the images in your haiku...
had to Google a pardalote:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pardalote

I continue to be amazed at Australia's
amazing variety of birds!


Lary

Hi there

Here's another excited person! I have always found haiku etc. fascinating and would love to learn more. It seems we will now have the opportunity.

Looking forward to it!

Snow

Hello Lary,

My heart skipped a beat when I saw your name here! And your teachings are here, too. May have to pull up a chair for a while and learn some more from you.

So nice to see you again.
Jan

Jan!!!!!!!!!!
Gosh, it's been so long...
so many winding paths on this internet!
Good to see you, gal!


Lary

Ok, I'm going to try another one! Am I getting close?? LOL


bloody death
a kiss of winter's breath
upon red rose

Hi Cathy,
ah, I feel something here...
especially this...

winter's breath
upon a red rose

Although it's personifying winter, hmmmm....
(personification, like metaphors, is not
encouraged.)

And to me, "bloody death" is actually describing
what happens in lines 2 and 3?
So a juxtaposition is needed. A change of direction...

one red petal
on the rose --
winter chill

Not a very good example, I'm afraid!
But perhaps it gives you an idea...


Lary

How about this one?

Water lilies
coddle Koi in pond --
rainstorm ripples


I'm not certain I've done this one correctly - I was thinking of the "calming environment" the lilies provide to the Koi (and the protection from elements) and then tried to introduce a rainstorm and that rippling effect of the water when raindrops touch.

~Cleo

Water lilies
coddle Koi in pond --
rainstorm ripples


Hi Cleo,
what a peaceful and delightful image!
And your underlying thought comes through nicely.

Now "coddle" has a couple of meanings --
cooking an egg, or pampering.
Obviously you don't intend the egg, lol!
But pampering is a human trait/action, right?
At least to me, it requires the process of thinking...
which water lilies do not have.
So, personification.

Another thought...what about zooming in to one
koi, one water lily....


a koi's tail
under the water lily --
rainstorm

When you include "ripples", you're not leaving
any work for the reader...if you just use the
rain, the reader must focus on the pond....
and see the resulting ripples. And through
those ripples, the koi's tail -- it must be hiding
under the water lily. Aha!

In a way, this is a slight change in perspective...
rather than using the water lily as the subject (since
it's just sitting there) the subject becomes the fish,
which has enough sense to move under the leaves for
protection...and I find that I can relate to this better.
Of course, that could be just me!


Lary

Wow - thanks so much Lary!

I was thinking that ripples 'tells' too much but didn't come back and edit - and I think I need to narrow my focus more with these? As you say, one koi, one lily seems not such a massive undertaking.

Think I'll post this one in the other thread now adn see how it looks?

Yes, the koi uses the lily for shelter from that storm!

Thanks bunches!
~Cleo

I'm adding another link here...
I just came across Richard Wright's work,
and he write mostly in 5-7-5!
A fascinating poet, and his words make one
pause:

http://www.terebess.hu/english/haiku/wright.html


Lary

Hi Lary,

Thanks for the help!
Ok... what about

one red petal
curls upon the rose...
winter chill

Cathy

Hey Lary!

I was reading through some of these and I noticed that a lot of his don't mention a season. I thought that was one of the requirements of haiku?

Cathy

branches crackle
as wind whips through;
trunk groans